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Defeat The Mandates: Green Our Vaccines reconstituted for COVID-19

A month ago, Dr. Robert Malone announced the “Defeat the Mandates” rally on Joe Rogan’s podcast, to be held this Sunday. I sensed many echoes of Jenny McCarthy’s 2008 “Green Our Vaccines” rally, although what’s different is even more disturbing than the antivaccine misinformation that’s the same.

In the two decades that I’ve been following and deconstructing antivaccine propaganda, one thing that’s always struck me is how much antivaxxers love a rally. The first one that I took note of in a big way was organized by Jenny McCarthy and her then-boyfriend Jim Carrey in 2008. At the time, she had become the biggest name in the antivaccine movement on the strength of her “mother warrior” schtick in which her autistic son was her “science” and her connections with Oprah Winfrey. The result was a rally called Green Our Vaccines, a slogan that I had first noticed bubbling up in the darker corners of the antivaccine Internet four months before the rally. The result was the biggest antivax rally that I’ve yet seen, although, truth be told, even then it wasn’t that big. Without the star power of Hollywood celebrities, subsequent attempts to “recreate the magic” foundered into rather pathetic displays. Memories of these “rallies” were in my head as I learned of another rally, announced on The Joe Rogan Experience a month ago by Dr. Robert “inventor of mRNA vaccines” Malone, who’s turned full antivax conspiracy theorists, called Defeat the Mandates:

Defeat the Mandates: Echoes of Green Our Vaccines

Just as Jenny McCarthy used to do constantly back in the days of her being the face of the antivaccine movement and was chanting her mantra, “I’m not ‘antivaccine’ but pro-safe vaccine,” Dr. Malone goes out of his way to assure Rogan that this really, truly—no, really truly—is “not about being antivaccine” but rather about “being anti-mandates.” He also apparently hopes to “bring people together,” all while obviously flattering Rogan by adding that he knows that that’s Rogan’s message too. I will, however, give the organizers of this antivax rally credit though. Although video shown on Rogan’s show is cringe-inducingly treacly, full of swelling music and images of healthcare workers, first responders, and other people designed to make obvious appeals to emotion, the message is clever, namely that the “vaccinated” and “unvaccinated” are “coming together,” not because they are antivaccine but because they all love freedom so much, which is why they hate “mandates” so much,” at least, if you believe the messaging, as reported by Anna Merlan:

This time around, the usual faces are teaming up with a few new allies and attempting a slightly shifted set of talking points. The Defeat the Mandates march is claiming not to be an anti-vaccine march at all, but instead a unified group of people, “vaccinated and unvaccinated,” coming together to Reclaim America from unjust vaccine mandates. “We’re coming home,” the site declares. “Americans of every class and color. Democrats and Republicans. Vaccinated and unvaccinated. United we stand. In peace we march.”

In his appearance on The Joe Rogan Experience last month, Dr. Malone himself echoed the message that this rally is about opposition to mandates, but he couldn’t resist throwing in some classic antivax tropes:

Our objective is to end the vaccine mandates, and, also: no vaccine passports, no vaccination for healthy children, no to censorship, no to limits on reasonable debate and this censorship and propaganda that we’re constantly bombarded with. We believe in the power of natural immunity. We believe and insist on informed consent, and we insist on doctors and patients making decisions without interference together.

Let’s see. How many antivax tropes did Dr. Malone use? “No vaccination for healthy children”? That’s an old one going back to antivaxxers refusing MMR and varicella vaccines for their children, who are—antivaxxers claim—at such low risk of serious complications from measles and chickenpox that vaccination isn’t unnecessary. (Sound familiar?) “We believe in the power of natural immunity?” That sounds more religious than scientific, and, in fact, it is. (How’s that “natural immunity” working out with all the repeat infections being observed?) Then there’s the “informed consent” trope. As I’ve said many times before, when antivaxxers use this term, my translation of this Newspeak is “misinformed refusal“—which I used to call “misinformed consent“—given the misinformation and conspiracy theories promoted by antivaxxers about how horrible and ineffective the vaccines supposedly are which, if believed, would lead a reasonable person to conclude that the risk-benefit ratio of vaccinating is not favorable. It’s the same damned tactic that Jenny McCarthy used to use.

In an apparent bid to appeal to aging Baby Boomers, the organizers have even come up with a logo that harkens back to the late 1960s, with peace, love, and Woodstock implied:

Funny how the organizers claim so very strenuously that this rally is “not antivaccine,” even as they use a hashtag that is very much associated with rabid, die-hard, antivaxxers, namely #DoNotComply. A song associated used for the rally is even called We Will Not Comply.

Then there’s the lineup of speakers to consider. Before I get to them, I can’t help but note that Merlan also recently reported that longtime antivaccine leader Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. thought that Joe Rogan himself would make an appearance:

Kennedy’s anti-vaccine organization, Children’s Health Defense, claimed in January that Rogan would also attend the rally; three days later, it issued a correction, writing, “Mr. Rogan is not on the scheduled list of speakers.”

The original January 12 press release from RFK Jr.’s antivax organization Children’s Health Defense, however, did make it clear that RFK Jr. himself views this rally as an antivaccine rally, given that RFK Jr. couldn’t resist including this common antivax claim derived from a misinterpretation of the Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) database:

In addition to objecting to COVID vaccine mandates on democratic principle, many are also expressing concern about the safety of these shots citing that as yet another reason to protest mandates. The latest data from the U.S. government’s Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) reveals 995,619 adverse events following COVID vaccination including 21,282 deaths.

I’ve discussed RFK Jr.’s dishonest use of VAERS beginning many months ago; so I won’t dwell on it here, other than to note that the number of deaths that he falsely attributes to the vaccines based on VAERS seems to be nearly plateauing. In any event, I rather suspect that Rogan, slick disinformation peddler that he is, realizes that it would be bad for his brand to appear with so many antivaxxers. What do I mean? Just look at the current scheduled lineup for the rally, recently Tweeted by its organizers:

You will seldom find a larger, more wretched group of COVID-19 pandemic contrarians and minimizers, antivaxxers, and grifters all assembled together in one place.

As a friend of the blog put it on Twitter:

As I perused this list, several thoughts came to mind, the first of which involves my fellow physicians and scientists, such as evolutionary biologist turned COVID-19 crank Bret Weinstein, Dr. Peter McCullough, and Dr. Robert Malone: If you are given top billing at a rally like Defeat the Mandates with antivaccine activists like Del Bigtree and Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. (and even appear before them, like Weinstein), you’ll forgive me if I don’t take your protestations that you are really “very provaccine” very seriously at all. In fact, if you appear on the same bill, period, with antivaxxers like this, I cannot take your protestations that you are provaccine in the least bit seriously. After all, RFK Jr. himself loves to proclaim that he is “fiercely provaccine.” Saying it doesn’t make it so. Your actions and other words matter more than denials of being antivaccine.

A second thought that came to me as I perused the list was: Poor Drs. Pierre Kory, Ryan Cole, and Paul Marik! You guys used to be the tops among COVID-19 cranks in 2020, but now you’re just relegated to the second tier of speakers at this antivaccine rally. Even Christina Parks, a local Michigan antivaxxer whom I hadn’t even heard of until recently and who really wasn’t very well known in the movement, is ahead of you! As for Steve Kirsch, the tech bro turned antivaxxer and ivermectin pusher? He’s in the last group.

Not “antivaccine” but “pro-freedom”?

Like Jenny McCarthy’s rally 14 years ago, Defeat the Mandates claims so very, very strenuously and piously not to be “antivaccine,” but, now as then, that claim is belied by the list of speakers. I hardly need to mention that RFK Jr. has been a leader in the antivaccine movement since at least 2005 and is known for likening vaccine mandates to the Holocaust. More recently, he’s ceased to be embarrassed by comparisons of vaccines to the “final solution.” It seems unnecessary to emphasize that Del Bigtree, too, is very antivaccine, having produced the 2016 antivaccine conspiracy film disguised as a documentary, VAXXED, with the originator of the 21st century antivaccine movement Andrew Wakefield. One thing Bigtree does share with many of the right wing grifters and Joe Rogan guests and fans assembled for this rally is an overly dramatic sense of his own importance in fighting for “freedom,” having likened himself to the Founding Fathers and openly told Second Amendment aficionados that “now’s the time” for their guns—all years before the pandemic. As for the doctors and scientists, a quick perusal shows those who have been promoting antivaccine conspiracy theories (Robert Malone, Peter McCullough, Christina Parks, Ryan Cole, Richard Urso, and Bret Weinstein) and unproven (and “suppressed”) “early treatment protocols” including ivermectin (Peter McCullough, Pierre Kory, Paul Marik, and others).

As always, whenever I see a list of speakers like this, I always like to look into the ones whom I hadn’t heard of before. Enter Dr. Angelina Farella, as reported last summer:

Anti-vaccination doctor Angelina Farella made the remarks, along with a series of misleading comments about the virus and its treatment, on Newsmax on Thursday. She appeared alongside Dr William Schaffner of Vanderbilt University Medical Center, who is pro-vaccine, reports Mediaite .

Discussing how to beat the virus, Dr Schaffner said: “If the unvaccinated people would just line up and get vaccinated, we could turn this off in a couple of months.”

Dr Farella responded with the suggestion that Covid-19 patients aren’t being treated for the virus, saying: “You know how you fight a pandemic, and you know how you fight disease? You treat it. What don’t we try treating early? Why don’t we do that? This is the first time ever that we don’t have guidelines. Where are the guidelines from Mayo Clinic. Where are the guidelines from [Johns] Hopkins? Where are the guidelines from your esteemed place, Dr. Schaffner? Where are they? What are we supposed to do? Why are we not treating these patients?”

She then listed some drugs, along with vitamin D and zinc, which she said could treat the disease.


It’s not the first time Dr Farella has made untrue claims about Covid-19. In May she testified before a Texas State Senate committee, stating that “we have in excess of 4,000 deaths and this [vaccine] has not been pulled yet,” indicating  the vaccine had been the cause of deaths. This was not the case. Since the vaccines were rolled out to the oldest and most vulnerable Americans first, it was to be expected that some of them died in the months after receiving the vaccine.

Dr. Farella is a member of America’s Frontline Doctors, the group of not-frontline doctors who have been grifting by running a prescription mill for ivermectin, after having made their first splash in 2020 promoting hydroxychloroquine to treat COVID-19 (which doesn’t work.) So of course she was misusing VAERS, as antivaxxers have been doing since the vaccines were first made available in December 2020. Does anyone want to guess what she’ll say at Defeat the Mandates?

Then there’s Dr. Aaron Kheriaty, a former professor of psychiatry and human behavior at the medical school and director of the medical ethics program at UC-Irvine Health, who was fired from posts at the medical school for refusing to be vaccinated against COVID-19. Naturally, he’s on Substack, which, like so many other Substack blogs, is full of rants about “coercion” and support for bad science like the Great Barrington Declaration. He also appeared on an episode of The Highwire with Del Bigtree entitled “Natural Immunity” Is Our Way Out of the Pandemic. Let’s just say that, if even UC-Irvine (home of homeopathy-lovingintegrative medicine“) can’t stomach you, you’re probably really bad at science. Finally, Dr. Paul Alexander was notorious as a “scientific advisor” to Michael Caputo, who was for a time the spokesperson for the Department of Health and Human Services during the Trump administration and known for pressuring the CDC to retroactively alter MMWR reports to downplay the risk of COVID-19 to children. Worse, he even said of children “we want them infected” about “infants, kids, teens, young people, young adults, middle aged with no conditions etc.” These days, he, too, is on Substack, where he’s promoting antivaccine nonsense about spike protein being deadly (it isn’t) and other COVID-19 disinformation.

Does anyone want to guess what these doctors will say at the Defeat the Mandates rally?

Before I finish by comparing and contrasting this rally with Jenny McCarthy and Jim Carrey’s rally 14 years ago, I can’t help but note that JP Sears is now getting top billing. (He’s also one of the march’s sponsors.) I mention this because there was a time when I used to find JP Sears, who at the time billed himself as a “holistic life coach,” rather amusing when he was making videos poking fun at New Age woo. Even then, though, I got the feeling that there was something “off” about him and his pleasantly clueless New Age guru persona in his videos. I should have listened to my gut back then, because now he’s full on antivax and COVID-19 crank. I wasn’t alone, either. Jonathan Jarry admits that he was fooled too:

There is a man on the Internet known for satirizing wellness trends who was recently censored on YouTube for spreading unfounded conspiracy theories. JP Sears made a name for himself by gently mocking essential oils and the unbearable demands made on friends by rule-abiding diet enthusiasts. You may remember him from his purple T-shirts, long red hair, and earnest sarcasm.

It may come as a shock to find out that not only has he become the very thing that he once ridiculed, JP Sears is now using his massive online platforms to discredit public health measures against COVID-19 and to open the door to grand conspiracy theories. Distrust is the name of the game, and he does it with comedic flair.

Just as JP Sears saw poking fun at New Age nonsense as a good strategy to sell his own brand of New Age nonsense, he saw the pandemic as a business opportunity:

Since the pandemic began, the object of JP Sears’ sarcasm has abruptly shifted. He calls masks “face suffocators.” He sows distrust in journalists. He mentions 5G in the context of the coronavirus and ironically wishes he could get two microchips instead of just the one. (He has escaped YouTube’s haphazard crackdown on COVID-19 misinformation, he thinks, because the artificial intelligence that scans video transcripts can’t detect sarcasm yet.) And when he soberly comments on the public health measures against the pandemic, his language is loaded with war imagery. He talks of people wanting to be “on the battlefield,” frequently makes comparisons to Braveheart, and calls his freedom-touting friends “warriors” and “crusaders,” friends like Mikki Willis, the director of the conspiracy-mongering Plandemic, and Brian Rose, the London Real founder whose own freedom-of-speech crusade has led him to interview über conspiracy theorist David Icke not just once but five times so far.

Of course, when he’s called out for spreading misinformation, JP Sears retreats back to the claim that he’s just “joking.” Yes, Sears is a typical New Age grifter who saw a business opportunity and “victim shames” those who get sick:

At the core of Sears’ reasoning is the twisted philosophy of “extreme self-responsibility.” (This is also the title of an episode of his podcast in which he interviews Ryan Moran, who runs the website and who wrote a book called 12 Months to $1 Million.) Sears places the onus of being ill on a person’s behaviour. 

No wonder he and Del Bigtree are so perfect together on the same stage. Early in the pandemic, Bigtree similarly blamed those at the highest risk for severe disease for having made themselves high risk by eating, smoking, and drinking too much, all while asking why he (presumably healthy) should have to sacrifice so that they are safe. One notes that Bigtree also almost bled to death from hemorrhoids last summer because he refused to accept transfusions of “vaccinated blood.” Instead, his fans flew him to a quack clinic in Mexico to get some “unvaccinated blood.” That’s some big ironic JP Sears energy there! Indeed, I doubt that JP Sears could have come up with a sketch as ridiculous as the actual truth of what Bigtree did, risking his life because he believed the antivaccine “pureblood” myth.

Defeat the Mandates vs. Green Our Vaccines: Compare and contrast

Let’s circle back to Jenny McCarthy’s “Green Our Vaccines” rally, which is very similar to this crankfest, but also different in much the way our times have changed in 14 years. The first, and most notable, difference is the environmentalist message of McCarthy’s rally. Although antivaxxers in the age of COVID-19 still love to use the “toxins gambit” to demonize COVID-19 vaccines, just as antivaxxers have always done, in 2022 an environmentalist slogan or name like “Green Our Vaccines” would have been seen as far too left-wing for such a rally. That’s not to say that I don’t expect to see a lot of signs about COVID-19 vaccines that are updated versions of signs like these, from the Green Our Vaccines rally in 2008:

Green Our Vaccines
Just substitute things like “lipid nanoparticles,” “mRNA,” and “tris” for the ingredients here, and you’ll have a sign for Defeat the Mandates.
Green Our Vaccines
Same caption as above.
Poisoning our future with vaccines
No change needed for 2022.
Green Our Vaccines or Defeat the Mandates?
No change needed for this one, either.
Believe it or not, this sign could be used in Defeat the Mandates, just as it was in Green Our Vaccines. Antivaxxers are still making the same bogus claim.
No change is required for 2022. Yes, antivaxxers are still confusing polyethylene glycol (which is in the lipid nanoparticles in mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines) for antifreeze, same as it ever was.

Then there’s this sign:

Green Our Vaccines or Defeat the Mandates
Agan, no change at all needed to update the sign for the 2022 antivaccine march. Joe Rogan fans no doubt appreciate the sign, and we might even see an identical sign in Washington, DC on Sunday.

Here’s a little exercise. Take a look at these photos and this list of slogans from the Green Our Vaccines rally and see how many would not be out of place on Sunday during the Defeat the Mandates rally. A lot of the slogans don’t make the 14 year jump because they were specific to the claim that vaccines cause autism a claim that does not apply to COVID-19 vaccines yet (but likely will once they are approved for children under 5). However, a lot of them do make the time jump quite well, either unchanged entirely or with very minimal changes to reflect the COVID-19 pandemic, for example:

  • “New Jersey needs vaccination choice.”
  • “It’s time for the CDC to come clean with the American public. We are not anti-vaccine, we are anti-toxins.”
  • “Hey reporters, do your homework.”
  • “Protect, not poison.”
  • “Support informed consent. First do no harm.”
  • “Center for Deception and Corruption.”
  • “Julie Gerberding must go. Cover up, Deceive, Conceal. Resign now!” (Substitute the name of current CDC director Rochelle Wolensky for Julie Gerberding.)
  • “Antifreeze is for cars, not children.” (Substitute “people” for “children.”)

You get the idea.

Anna Merlan put it very well:

Since nearly the start of the pandemic, anti-mask, anti-vaccine events have been thick on the ground. There have been rallies, marches and conferences, whose speakers tend to be the same small group, over and over again: Bigtree and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. most often featured among them. And the so-called Defeat the Mandates march is, to be sure, more or less the same group of people; among them are Bigtree, Kennedy, Dr. Pierre Kory (best known for his advocacy of ivermectin, a discredited COVID treatment), and anti-vaccine comedian JP Sears, who said in an email newsletter that he’s sponsoring the march.

Basically, Defeat the Mandates is nothing more than Jenny McCarthy’s Green Our Vaccines rally updated for 2022. Like McCarthy’s rally, Defeat the Mandates features the same ol’ same ol’, when it comes to speakers, the difference being that a new crop of regulars on the antivax speakers’ circuit has arisen since 2008, although a lot of the old ones are still there. RFK Jr., for instance, spoke Green Our Vaccines and will speak at Defeat the Mandates.

The politics might be different in that the the antivaccine movement has shifted very much rightward politically since Green Our Vaccines, which is why what was a secondary message at Green Our Vaccines (no school vaccine mandates) has become the primary message of Defeat the Mandates. There are no celebrities with Jim Carrey’s star power at this rally, given that Joe Rogan has declined to attend, suggesting that he is more canny than McCarthy and Carrey were and knows that associating himself too explicitly with such a rally could be bad for his brand. Similarly, there was, as far as I can tell, no alignment with dubious astroturf groups that have been behind the antivaccine movement, as evidenced by the list of sponsors, which includes the Frontline COVID Critical Care Alliance (FLCCC), RFK Jr.’s Children’s Health Defense (which will be bussing people in), and the World Council for Health, among others. Generation Rescue and the like were small potatoes compared to the dark money going into astroturf efforts to oppose COVID-19 public health measures.

There are two other disturbing differences. First, this rally is likely to be far larger than any previous “march on Washington”-style antivaccine rally (or, indeed, any previous antivaccine rally ever held in the US) by many-fold, given its promotion by a number of popular right-wing influencers. The second is that there was no intimation of violence that I can recall from Green Our Vaccines, which, for all its antivaccine nature and the anger expressed by participants, occurred before the antivaccine movement began to align itself with right wing neofascist and militia groups in 2019.

Not so with Defeat the Mandates, as Merlan reports:

The only slightly jarring note is the organizers’ repeated intimations that someone will use the rally to do harm or commit violence, but that it’s unsanctioned by them. “Organizers have contracted out comprehensive private security who will work in concert with local and federal law enforcement in keeping this March peaceful and in the spirit of Dr. King,” FitzGibbon wrote in his press release. “Participants in the March are asked to please report any suspicious or threatening activity to law enforcement which will be on hand at the march.” In an FAQ, the Defeat the Mandates website also instructed marchers not to veer off course—towards the Capitol, for instance. “If a group seems to be heading off the direction of the march, don’t follow them,” the site instructs. Additionally, it adds, “If anybody seems to be agitating for violence or is trying to encourage racist or violent acts, DO NOT ENGAGE, break out the camera and start video recording and calmly back away.” 

Beginning before the pandemic, antivaxxers have been increasingly associating with far right wing militias, a development that’s gotten even worse with antivax rallies having lately featured the neo-fascist Proud Boys descending into violence. Clearly, the organizers are aware of this phenomenon.

Even so, a lot is the same besides the speakers and the location. Now, as then, there is the same attempt to hide the rally’s antivaccine message behind messages of being “against mandates” and for “freedom,” although there is an added twist of trying to make the 2022 rally about bringing the “vaccinated and unvaccinated together” (not a great idea, given the potential for breakthrough infections) to oppose mandates. The idea is very clearly to get some who might be susceptible to antivaccine messaging to watch a bill of antivaccine and antimask activists spewing the usual conspiracy theories, in order to lure them in.

There’s even a political component. On Monday, Senator Ron Johnson will hold another COVID-19 panel like the one he held a few months ago in which he platformed Peter Doshi and Great Barrington Declaration-aligned COVID-19 cranks. Guess what? Several of the speakers at Defeat the Mandates will be participating in Sen. Johnson’s disinformation panel the next day, including Bret Weinstein, who will be joined by fellow Defeat the Mandates speakers Drs. Peter McCullough, Ryan Cole, Pierre Kory, Richard Urso, Paul Marik, Robert Malone, and Aaron Kheriaty, bolstered by other COVID-19 cranks and antivaxxers like Jay Bhattacharya, signatory on the Great Barrington Declaration. It’s almost as though antivaxxers coordinated with Sen. Johnson to set this up. (Actually, scratch the “almost.”)

Joe “Broprah” Rogan and platforming disinformation

I’ve heard Joe Rogan referred to as “Broprah” or “Bro-Oprah” because he appears to be “Oprah for men.” Jenny McCarthy’s connection to Oprah Winfrey before the Green Our Vaccines rally was more explicit than just a meme, with Oprah even having at one time been rumored to be producing a daytime talk show featuring McCarthy and McCarthy having launched her antivaccine persona by pulling her “mother warrior” shtick on Oprah’s show. The similarity is more than just passing, given how Oprah used to platform pseudoscience, New Age mysticism, and quackery back in her heyday and now Rogan does the same, but a lot worse, even to the point of Dr. Malone’s likening COVID-19 reactions on his show to “mass formation psychosis,” all while defending it as “letting all sides” have a say.

While there is a lot that is different about Defeat the Mandates, that is more a reflection of changing times rather than antivaccine messaging and tactics, which have remained disturbingly constant, such that everything old is new again. Defeat the Mandates is just further evidence of that, as a new generation of fans of Joe Rogan repeat the mistakes of the fans of a prior popular figure Oprah and Rogan amplifies the misinformation that fuels a rally like Defeat the Mandates in much the same way Oprah amplified the antivaccine misinformation that led to the rise of Jenny McCarthy as an antivaccine activist and fueled Green Our Vaccines.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

207 replies on “Defeat The Mandates: Green Our Vaccines reconstituted for COVID-19”

Vaccine mandates don’t make sense. If the vaccines work, the individual can choose to get it for themselves. If they don’t want it get it, it does not affect others who choose to get it. Each individual can make their own risk-benefit analysis.

For covid, the vaccines do not prevent transmission. Those at risk can get the vaccines.

It’s pretty straight forward. The mandates have no effect except to damage societal cohesion through tyrannical coercion.

For covid, the vaccines do not prevent transmission.

Actually, they do. Just because they are not 100% effective in preventing transmission does not mean that they do not prevent transmission. Seriously, your dichotomous thinking is boring.

“If they don’t want it get it, it does not affect others who choose to get it.”
No. This is not true. This is not true at all.

1) Not everyone who wants to get vaccinated can (young children). 2) The vaccine does not “take” equally in all people (esp people with immune disorders). This is not because the vaccine is “bad” but because biology is highly variable.

By choosing to not get vaccinated during a pandemic of a highly contagious respiratory illness you’re essentially driving drunk.

Humans are part of communities and our actions have impacts on others. Especially when it comes to infectious disease.

Virtually every word of that is wrong, Lynx. Vaccine mandates make sense to intelligent people who have basic logic skills. People not getting vaccinated affects all of us in numerous ways–such as sick and overburdened healthcare workers, unavailable hospital beds, worker shortages, breeding grounds for mutations, and increased transmission rates. Vaccines reduce transmission, which means that they prevent some transmission. And they reduce severity of disease.

It’s pretty straightforward … anti-mandaters are some combination of stupid, ignorant, and dishonest,

Anti-mandates are pro freedom. People who want mandates should set up a new fascist country and go full Nazi if they want.

Anti-mandates are pro freedom.

Oh, stop. Just stop.
By that logic seatbelt laws, helmet laws, anti drunk driving laws, building codes etc. are anti freedom.
Governments have a right to restrict actions that may cause harm to others. This is why masks and vaccines are required. Blathering about freedom when there is a disease going around that cares nothing for our rights is just silly.

@Chaos Infusion:
Braeye T, Cornelissen L, Catteau L, Haarhuis F, Proesmans K, De Ridder K, Djiena A, Mahieu R, De Leeuw F, Dreuw A, Hammami N, Quoilin S, Van Oyen H, Wyndham-Thomas C, Van Cauteren D. Vaccine effectiveness against infection and onwards transmission of COVID-19: Analysis of Belgian contact tracing data, January-June 2021. Vaccine. 2021 Sep 15;39(39):5456-5460. doi: 10.1016/j.vaccine.2021.08.060. Epub 2021 Aug 19. PMID: 34454789; PMCID: PMC8373820.

If they don’t want it get it, it does not affect others who choose to get it.

It does, because there’s still the possibility of breakthrough cases. Not only that, but you’re forgetting another group who are affected: those who are unable to be vaccinated, either because they’re too young (infants) or immunocompromised.

Ultimately, refusing to be vaccinated affects everyone else because it provides the disease with alternative vectors and allows it to persist in the community instead of being pushed out by herd immunity.

So people who refuse to be vaccinated are directly responsible for maintaining the presence (and potentially the mutation) of vaccine preventable diseases.

I support your right to evaluate what health freedom you want for your family and friends. So honorable. That is straight forward.

You are not believable to promote an anti-mandate position as the “better” to something else.

Proof is needed to make that claim — for the vast majority of professionals — mask and vaccination mandates help us all live better in freedom.

COVID vaccines prevent your family from dying and we support that. Do you?

We need the mandates for all the breakthrough pain err I mean breakthrough cases ?

Hey, johnlabarge, does anyone who knows you consider you to be intelligent or well-informed? I doubt that they do, and yet here you are making sure that yet more people, total strangers to you, have an extremely low opinion of your cognitive faculties.

You ever evaluate what action causes more death? You ever asked that question? Doubt it and you are easy to dismiss because you have no argument, evidence, or compassion for human life.

The BS Purdue pulled has nothing to do with this respiratory pandemic from a novel organism. Try to keep two thoughts in your head at once.

@john labarge She did not give any numbers (at least not in your citation). Does she mean that it is no more 100% or it is now 0%. It is the number that is actually interesting. It never was 100%,of course.

@john labarge No numbers either. Have you considered to read a scientific paper about vaccine efficiency against omicron varianrr ? Or dig into numbers ? Is efficiency 0%, 100%, or something between ?

The parallels between Purdue’s ‘breakthrough pain’ and added doses and covid vaccines breakthrough cases and endless boosters while probably coincidental invite significant mocking.

@john labarge Have you problem with numbers? Vaccine efficiency is a number. Vaccines are not 100% effective, and totally not effective either. They prevent cetain number of cases.There have been links to papers, perhaps you read them and learn something.

Masks and other preventive measures do stop COVID transmission. Getting a vaccine helps prevent death and serious illness should it get transmitted to you. Mandates make sense for that reason alone — let’s keep people out of the hospital and morgue.

Freedom to die, we’ve always had that and the best leaders make great arguments on when or where that has to come. I have yet to read any good argument or leadership essence from the antivaxx position that makes a lick of sense based on the projected numbers who will die and for what freedom. It is the same crap over and over again just because some antivaxx yokel says it is so but hides evidence. Talk about conspiracy.

Everyone is at risk of getting COVID. That is obvious as the unvaccinated keep flooding hospitals and even some vaccinated. Guess the unvaccinated didn’t pray loud enough or follow that strict fairy-like diet or whatever pushes their decision making.

Your freedom begins to wane once you leave your home and interact with the rest of the world. So do what you want to do in your own home but don’t expect the same acceptance of behavior in the public sphere. If you think laws and public safety are tyrannical coercion you have a larger problem besides COVID.

If most people are going to ultimately get it what difference does it make? Why do you care if you get it from a vaccinated person or an unvaccinated person. You’re gonna get it. Booster is only efficacious against Omi for 10 weeks and not highly so; many boosted people are still getting infected (my father in law for example). If you want the vaccine and you trust the Pharma companies by all means, get it. Don’t force others.

Because vaccination reduces chances of people clogging up our medical system. If I slip on the ice and smack my head, I want to be sure I can get care, not be forced to sit for hours or even days because people like you don’t accept the responsibility that comes with living in a society.

Where you yhe idea that everybody gets it ? Most of vaccinated do not.
Do you think a death is a difference ? Non vaccinted person is much more probable to die becauseof COVID.
There are indeed differences.

@John labarge Lots of people have died becuas eof COVID, your were lucky.
Burden of proof is indeed not yours.This is why there are clinical trials and follow up studies.

How many cases are they preventing in Israel, which has a 90% vax rate, 80% booster rate and thousands of 4th doses – hint – they have their highest peak ever. These vaccines don’t prevent cases, not even Fauci claims that any longer. The prevailing claim these days is that they prevent serious illness and death. But guess what Omicron (now 95% of cases) is a different virus than the original. Hence it warrants a different risk/reward analysis regarding the vaccine. Rather than do that this Pharma apologist community just pushes on with more jabs with no reduction in cases. It’s absurd and frankly bordering on criminal.


Israel, which has a 90% vax rate, 80% booster rate

I’m not sure were those numbers are from. Israel’s doing OK for vaccination rate, but its whole-of-population numbers are 65% fully vaccinated (two doses of either Pfizer or Moderna).

That’s fewer than the USA (though that’s not a great benchmark).

@john labarge So you actually admit that COVID vaccinations prevent hospilisations and death ? We are making progress here.
Why do you think that omicron is entirely different virus,this time benign one ?
Maslo C, Friedland R, Toubkin M, Laubscher A, Akaloo T, Kama B. Characteristics and Outcomes of Hospitalized Patients in South Africa During the COVID-19 Omicron Wave Compared With Previous Waves. JAMA. 2021 Dec 30:e2124868. doi: 10.1001/jama.2021.24868. Epub ahead of print. PMID: 34967859; PMCID: PMC8719272.
Patients hospitalized during wave 4 were younger (median age, 36 years vs maximum 59 years in wave 3; P < .001) with a higher proportion of females. Significantly fewer patients with comorbidities were admitted in wave 4
Perhaps you should not listen Fauci on this case.
Wald A. Booster Vaccination to Reduce SARS-CoV-2 Transmission and Infection. JAMA. 2022 Jan 25;327(4):327-328. doi: 10.1001/jama.2021.23726. PMID: 35006269.
The booster vaccine doses reduced equally the risk of symptomatic and asymptomatic infection.

I don’t know. I don’t trust the data re the same from health officials who just are interested in pushing vaccines, that’s for sure. But it’s what the claimed benefit of the vaccines has been reduced to. Not infection prevention, not herd immunity, but ‘you won’t die’. Because of this there is no ‘societal’ reason to vax. If you trust Pharma companies and think it protects you go for it. Let freedom ring.


I don’t know. I don’t trust the data re the same from health officials who just are interested in pushing vaccines, that’s for sure.

OK, so where are you getting the idea that “Israel … has a 90% vax rate”?

@john labarge Is avoiding death a good thing ? And again, a paper about vaccines and omicron transmission:
Wald A. Booster Vaccination to Reduce SARS-CoV-2 Transmission and Infection. JAMA. 2022;327(4):327–328. doi:10.1001/jama.2021.23726
This is not a government statement, and a pharma press release. Why not actually read it ?

@john labarge Avoiding deth is a small benefit to you?
There is again a review about vaccines and omicron transmission:
Wald A. Booster Vaccination to Reduce SARS-CoV-2 Transmission and Infection. JAMA. 2022;327(4):327–328. doi:10.1001/jama.2021.23726
Why not read it ? It is not goverment,nor pharma.

johnlabarge: “Israel … has a 90% vax rate”

How are you going on finding a source for that claim?

Israel has 90% of adults vaccinated. 80% of adults boosted. Thousands more with a 4th dose. Re death – covid isn’t the only way to die – indeed it’s very unlikely that someone in my age group die of covid, particularly since I’m in reasonably good shape, not diabetic etc.; blood clots, vasculitis, heart problems, high blood pressure, vascular system insult due to spike protein are all part of the calculation, the health officials suppress these reactions, minimize them or otherwise ignore them.
This leads me to believe that I don’t know the risks of the jab, but I know the risks of the virus and they are extremely low.

That’s not what you said, though. You left out the “of adults” bit.

In that case, if you were only considering the vaccination status of adults in the vaccination coverage, why were you using whole-of-population numbers for those affected by the disease?

@john labarge So there is vast conspiracy ton suppress COVID vaccine health risks ? Thank you for making my poinr.
You know, supermans die too

Conspiracy has a specific meaning. There could be a conspiracy or just a bunch of people like the folks here with pro-Pharma confirmation bias. From a distance the difference between conspiracy and group think are hard to discern.

@john labarge It is you who have a huge confimation bias. You repeat same argument endlesaly, regardless of answers

Orac notes that the perp… rally organisers want to appeal to “aging baby boomers” via a peace/ love vibe ala Woodstock ( see lettering style of poster shown):
however, aren’t they also trying to convince onlookers that they are the wave of the future and attracting the young and hip- students, new parents and other au courant rebels?

— -btw- where is Jenny now? She seems to be very quiet about vaccines these days: I imagine that that’s because she has to please companies who pay her- she’s been on The View, a few reality shows with her husband and his family, she has a television game show, a talk comedy show on satellite radio and shills an eponymous bottled cocktail.
HOWEVER, a few months ago she appeared in a video on RFK jr’s CHD site as supportive of his crap as ever. Maybe that one slipped under corporate radar.

I wonder if the event will attract more political anti-PH measure/ freedom folk/ Q?
Readers might find it useful to search for ‘Washington rally today’ when it is occurring because you often can find video and photos from reality based news outlets that honestly cover crowd size etc.

As Anna Merlan reported:

“IF YOU MISS THIS EVENT,” Del Bigtree wrote recently on Twitter, “it will be like telling your grandkids YOU MISSED WOODSTOCK.”

What, miss out on lying naked in a mud puddle freaking out on brown acid?

Actually, considering you would be listening to ignorant ranting in a crowd of unvaccinated unmasked covidiots, the experience would be more Altamonte than Woodstock, but much worse. Instead of listening to great music while being beaten with pool cues and getting shanked, you would be bored silly by a bunch of speeches while risking long covid, or death on a ventilator..

Israel vaccination rate is referring to vaccinated/boosted adults. Regardless young people are way less likely to be hospitalized because of covid as several health officials have pointed out. Hence this is the proper rate to use.

@john labarge How would COVID reduce hospitalization ? Yes, if people needing hospital care have been rejected because of COVID. This has indeed happened.

Unfortunately the forecast for DC this weekend is sunny (and cold). No rain or sleet. Wouldn’t surprise me if it’s a super spreader event.

Rocker Meat Loaf, who spoke out repeatedly against vaccine mandates has died, according to some sources from Covid-19.

“In an interview with the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette recently, (Meat Loaf) also pushed COVID-skeptical sentiments. He called a flight attendant a “Nazi” for requiring a mask on a flight, and said that “if I die, I die, but I’m not going to be controlled.”

“He did add that he was terrified of the disease but did not state if he was vaccinated.”

People have already started speculating on social media that a Covid-19 vaccine booster killed him.

I’m sure they’re speculating that a COVID-19 shot killed Louis Anderson too. any time a celebrity dies these days, antivaxxers proclaim that it was a COVID vaccine that killed them.


I have read, with interest your posts of late–and I have followed many of the “supporting” links, and have found sites that are equal to yours in terms of the obvious effort, organization, and research that is evident to produce the blog content. I do wonder, how it is, folks like you, who ostensibly appear to be practicing physicians could possibly have the time to put forth the effort, organization and research to produce such blogs. I confess, I find it quite dubious that you are, in fact, a practicing physician, with the schedule demands typically associated with the profession, such that you have the time to devote to your one note samba theme: “Antivaxers BAD!!!”

Perhaps you are an amazing multitasking doctor who can whip out these posts and still carry on the demands of a practice–or, you are, in fact, a shill for deep pocketed entities that help with the work needed to create such content. Whichever the case, it doesn’t matter to my point.

And that is, your entire content shtick is based on the straw man device. That is, you focus all argument and assertions on a theme of your choice–“anti-vaxers” in this case–and then, you proceed to endlessly knock down the “anti-vaxers” you have lined up in a row for the purpose of knocking them down.

In so doing, your rhetoric infers that the faults you “prove”, in some way supports the argument that the covid vaccine works as advertised. Or, you have somehow disproved that masses of citizens have good, valid reasons not to trust the “authorities” or “experts” (including folks like you)–reasons that have nothing to do with the “anti-vaxers” you line up to complain about.

This post you did about the anti-mandate rally is particularly on point. I am vaccinated. And, I am quite anti mandate. I know of loads of people like me. I don’t need Kennedy, or Malone, or McCollough–or you–to do my thinking for me. There is a very real and serious issue happening in the country, and all you do is belittle (and ignore) the issue with your usual “anti-vax” drivel”.

It is self evident to most with an IQ about 80 that the government and supranational organizations have consistently misled the public on covid. Whether their intent is innocent and due to incompetence—or justified by an ends-justifies the means attitude about public health policy–or literally nefarious in intent for reasons of power and money–whatever the reason, the messaging has consistently been wrong.

We were told, multiple times, the vaccine would keep people from getting sick. Ditto about spreading the virus. Ditto that one course of shots was all that would be needed. Ditto that masks were not needed. Ditto that masks work, except now, 18 mnths in, apparently cloth masks, which most wore for the last 18 months, is acknowledged to not do much. Ditto vaccines would be a way out of the pandemic.

Your content is polished enough, and is intelligently engineered enough, for me to believe it is no accident you never speak to any of the above as why people are suspicious of the vaccine, and its long term (and short term) risk. The above are the reasons so many are against mandates–and for many, against taking the shot.. It has nothing to do with being “anti-vax”. It has nothing to do with “disinformation” on the internet.

It has to with the lack of truthful, honest, and verifiable information coming out of the CDC, NIH, Fauci. It has to do with the obvious censoring of information–as per the banning of content from YouTube, Twitter, and Facebook. And, it has a lot to do with a self evidently corrupt media (propaganda machine). To wit–are you aware that UK, on Wednesday, eliminated all vaccine mandates for non-front line health workers, eliminated vax passports, eliminated mask requirements. Is about to eliminate quarantine requirements. That is major major news–UK was one of the most strict countries–and now is dropping all the mandates as failed policies–and yet, that fact is not easily found if one goes to AP, BBC, Reuters, etc. That is what I mean about how self evident it is to people how unreliable and dishonest the information about covid is. We don’t need Malone or Rogan to point this sort of thing out.

Its not about “anti-vaxers”. Most people have never heard of Malone or McCollough. Hard working, honest Americans see totally dishonest and corrupt government forcing mandates without any evidence to support the mandate–in this case the self evident fact is the spread of Omnicron. Only a fool would argue the vaccines are preventing infections in the vaccinated. Yes, I know the argument the vaccinated will pose less of a drain on hospital care–that’s a valid argument. But, it is equally valid to point out the constant, consistent, untruths being foisted on the public–and to ask–what else are they not being truthful about? And thus feel mandates are an abuse of power, given the constant false information.

Given your axe to grind is all about “anti-vaxers”, I assume because that axe butters your bread in some way, I doubt your commentary will change much. But, it would be interesting to see you acknowledge how horrendously untruthful the messaging has been–and, acknowledge the validity of skeptics that are based on those facts–not what “anti-vaxers” are saying. And, then give evidence–real evidence–not links to other sites that have no real context to the point you are making–give hard evidence that proves the benefits of the covid vaccine, as well as why it was adequately tested—and, why those benefits support the idea of mandates.

“have the time to put forth the effort, organization and research to produce such blogs”

You clearly have a lot of time on your hands. So much, in fact, that you can rely on Brownian motion to make your way through the world.

“It is self evident to most with an IQ about 80 that the government and supranational organizations have consistently misled the public on covid.”

This doesn’t mean what you think it means.

“Hard working, honest Americans see totally dishonest and corrupt government forcing…”

Then why did you vote for them?

“that axe butters your bread in some way”

Oh! I’ll have to get one of those butter axes for our next dinner parties.

I tried a butter axe at my last dinner party. I destroyed my dining table,and it took simply hours to clean up the blood.

What did anything you say have to do with anything? At least you are consistently inane. I would ask if you had dementia but the demented don’t know they have dementia

1) Worst kept secret on the internet.
2) Pharma shill (hardly a new claim)
3) “We were told, multiple times, the vaccine would keep people from getting sick. Ditto about spreading the virus. Ditto that one course of shots was all that would be needed.”

Citation needed. Please provide a dated document from the US federal government saying that the vaccines would work 100% (none of the manufacturers said that, ever), or that the vaccines would 100% prevent transmission. Or that it would be “one course”.

4) The UK is hardly “one of the most strict countries” – see please Australia, New Zealand, Austria, Hong Kong, etc. And when I go to the UK News tab on the BBC there are plenty of articles about the changes in COVID restrictions, and there were many yesterday as well. It’s hardly being “hidden”.

What I am seeing here is you making a lot of assertions without evidence, claiming malfeasance, and demanding perfect certainty in a highly volatile situation.

Fauci said we’d get to herd immunity. Now he says most will get it. CDC still can’t answer of the 800k stated deaths how many for which COViD was the primary cause. This leaves no basis for risk/benefit calculation. It also means you should presume the number is fake. Moreover the FDA asked for 75 years to produce docs that they relied on to conclude the Pfizer vax was safe. The answer there is also a negative presumption. Nonfeasance is the best option here because of the spin, hysteria and lies let alone the conflicts of interest. Establishment medical community has discredited itself nearly fully and it’s sad.

Moreover the FDA asked for 75 years to produce docs that they relied on to conclude the Pfizer vax was safe.

You keep mentioning this 75 years. Give us a citation forit.

800 k stated deaths ? Where are the corpses ? (This would mean doubling of US death rate).
Herd immunity depands how efficiently the virus transmits. If there is a new variant, number changes.
FDA should now report COVID data in 8 months:
So then we know. But i do not hold my breath. There were follow up studies.

1) That’s not a citation.
2) There are more COVID vaccines in the US than just Pfizer. The fixation is unproductive.
3) The 75 year thing you keep saying is weird and not based in facts. Again, going to need a citation because you are so unclear on what you are talking about that no one can form a reasonable counterpoint.

Scientists/professors submitted a FOIA request to the FDA to obtain what they used to conclude that the Pfizer vaccine was safe. The FDA asked for 75 years to produce these documents. Luckily the judge did not go along with that. But basically they attempted to stop people from learning about what they relied upon in evaluating the vaccine until everyone getting the vaccines was gone. The right presumption when the government tries to hide information is that that information is not good.

@john labarge If you read the article, FDA said publishing fasterwould be too much work. We noe see after 8 months. I do not hold my breath, there have been lots of follow up studoes giving same result

Well of course that’s what the FDA said. It’s not a basis that they don’t feel like disclosing the info or are trying to hide negative info. Fore Pete’s sake.

@john la barge We will know after 8 months, would we ? There were many follow up studies, which agreed with clinical trials quite well.

Hey Port:

Since you’re definitely, positively not antivaccine, can you list the vaccines that you approve of and recommend people get? “I was vaccinated” is dandy, but what vaccines do you support?

Your friend,

the hireling of deep-pocketed shills*

*shouldn’t that be “shills of deep-pocketed special interests”? The money is good, but most of us shills aren’t _really_ deep-pocketed.

Yep. If he’s not antivaccine, surely there must be at least one vaccine, if not several more, that he considers safe and effective and recommends for people without medical contraindications.

“that fact is not easily found if one goes to AP, BBC, Reuters, etc. T”

I must be imagining the information I heard on the BBC telling me about the various imminent changes.

“I assume because that axe butters your bread in some way”

In fairness, many in the anti-vax hall of fame get their bread buttered using the axe of unsupported assertion.

Well said, Portnoy Complaint. It is plain to see that the authorities are lying, so it is up to us to seek reliable, independent sources to verify what we can and discard (at a minimum regard as suspect) anything we cannot.

Orac has a schtick and he sticks to it like . I can’t credit him for doing much research though, as he rarely, if ever, produces actual data to support his “vaccine GOOD; antivax BAD” position.

“so it is up to us to seek reliable, independent sources”

Yeeaaah. Only how do you judge reliability or independence? Never mind, rhetorical question.

Congratulations, you listened to all the descriptions of fuel economy, turning circle, practicality and reliability and then bought a new car because it had shiny blue metallic paint and the sales person was fit and told you they don’t get much commission.

I do wonder, how it is, folks like you, who ostensibly appear to be practicing physicians could possibly have the time to put forth the effort, organization and research to produce such blogs.

There’s a saying, attributed to various famous people, which goes as follows:
If you want something done, ask a busy person.

Wonder no more.


I’m getting major flashbacks to 2005, when my blog was less than a year old and, believe it or not, I used to post a lot more frequently than I do now. I haven’t had the old “you blog too much to be a real doctor” BS for years and years and years now.

Well, these anti-vaxxers, Trumpkins, and right wingers are as dishonest as they are stupid and ignorant.

Hey Portnoise: You forgot Orac has a research lab and writes grants and publishes. It’s really amazing all the great things he does. “Polished content”? NO. It’s called facts and truth–things folks like you hate to hear.

I dunno, considering the incidence of misspelling, poor grammar, repetitive statements and cut and paste tweets, I don’t think it takes Orac very long to complete a post. Just kidding Orac ?

“I confess, I find it quite dubious that you are, in fact, a practicing physician,”

Orac’s name is the worst kept secret on the internet. Published papers can be found here:

Dr. Gorski is easy to find at the Karmanos Cancer Institute in Detroit.

Don’t go there though. It’s full of immunocompromised people.

This one of the most thoughtful and intelligent comments I have ever read. That is all I have to add. Rs has given his typically inane remark.

Wasn’t Portnoy an exotic masturbater? Post meet poster.

I’m an honest, hard working American who disagrees with you because you just say stuff as though it were true.

So typical of the antivaxx movement.

Furlong is an English original and can be traced back to Old English furlang, a combination of the noun furh (“furrow”) and the adjective lang (“long”). It was a place where people defecated. I hope you find this as inane as your commentary.

RelCoVax is being developed by an Indian pharmaceutical company. Malone claims to be consulting for them. It is the sort of work his consulting business did, so it could be true.

Malone is revelling in the adulation he is receiving (dare I say addicted?) and wants it to continue. I doubt he has thought carefully about this, otherwise he would not be promoting a vaccine to anti-vaxxers. Or perhaps he believes them when they say they are not anti-vaccine, but pro safe vaccine. In any case, it will all come crashing down for Malone. He won’t be anti-vaccine enough for his new fans and real scientists will not trust him in the future.

Lots of vocal prominent anti-vax/mandate people I’d think would be there (AJW, the more “senior” anti-vax quacks I’m not gonna name) aren’t there. Could be a rift, but could also be just it’s cold outside in DC this time of year and/or those-in-charge are tasking those not there with other things (based on this big lead-up on Telgram to some huge RFKjr “reveal” in 2 more days where he is going to expose EVERYTHING about covid vaccines including how they cause…..(drum roll please)….. autism.

Yes. They are going there (as Orac predicted). I have no idea how tf they could even try to posit a linkage, but they’re shouting they are going there.

@ Dorit:

I’ve looked around and haven’t seen anything about him recently. His twitter is old/ defunct, no interviews or appearances at the usual suspects’ sites, no new films. The only thing I saw was that Elle MacPherson’s rep said that she and Andy split up 2 years ago.
Maybe he went out and got a job . ( sarcasm)

Speculation about anti-vax ‘logic’..

I listen to Mike Adams ( NN) by skipping around or leaving it on whilst I do work: today ( early in the broadcast) he said that he was getting “sick” because he met with other people and that there were probably ‘toxins’ and/ or ‘spike proteins’ floating about . So to counteract his symptoms he took some (feedstore) ivermecton, HCQ, supplements, NAC, pine needle tea and several other remedies. Now I recall that he said something similar after he spoke at a rally months ago. He takes some of these potions prophylatically.

He’s anti-vax, anti-mask and a freedom fighter from Texas. Doesn’t he realise that he probably has been sick a few times already after hanging around with his anti-vax/ anti-mask friends? Isn’t a vaccine just easier? Now, he doe takes pharma products ( ivermecton, HCQ) but not as directed. What is it about vaccines that scares them so? Is it that it is injected not ingested? Do they mistrust others so much that they imagine the vaccine to be contaminated with poisons, dirt or witchcraft?
Is this a primal fear: of being injected with the ‘unknown’? A threat to bodily integrity? They may compare vaccination to rape. Paranoid fantasy systems?

Sure, it makes sense.
I was wondering though in a more philosophically Golden Bough sort of way. That they disbelieve in death by natural causes, always suspecting witchcraft or magic. A person dies because someone put a curse on him or he walked over a mark on a pathway intended to cause harm or he “did something wrong”.

Modern era people with this type of mindset might imagine that external, malevolent forces cause illness, death and autism, not that sometimes these events transpire for totally natural reasons, not caused by people/ witches, such as microorganisms, genes, accident. There doesn’t have to be an evil magician or a satanic/ corporate cartel led by Gates et companie
Whenever we hear such black-and-white thinking – good vs evil- pure vs contaminated – it sounds like primitive or early childhood thinking to me.

This Rabbi Epstein:

“Rabbis Mendel Epstein, Jay Goldstein and Binyamin Stimler were convicted in 2015 on charges of conspiracy to commit kidnapping…The attacks were carried out from 2009 to 2013 in New Jersey, New York City and other locations. Prosecutors said the group used brutal methods and tools, including handcuffs and electric cattle prods, to torture the men into granting the religious divorces, known as “gets,” which their wives were seeking”

It certainly looks like his mug shot.

“Though technically only the presence of the husband, wife, and two witnesses is required to effect the divorce, practically, the get process is so complex that it cannot be done correctly unless done in the presence of experts in the field. In fact, rabbinic law automatically invalidates any get which was not written and transmitted in front of experts”

I quickly looked up ‘Get’ and found this. I wonder how the anti-vaxxer rabbis square the reliance on professionals in rabbinic law with their ability to ignore the professionals in science.

Merlin’s article notes the poster shows a photo of the wrong Rabbi Epstein. The pic is of Mendel Epstein, but the speaker is actually Zev Epstein, a contemporary antibacterial.

Eek, I didn’t catch the idiot autocorrect . It’s Anna Merlan of course, and Zev Epstein is an anti-vaxer, not the guy using violence to get Gets.

Seriously, if you want to claim you are not anti-vaccine then hanging around with anti-vaxxers and talking at their rally is not the way to do it. All it does is reinforce the perception that you are anti-vaccine.

‘anti-vaccine’ is a non-thinking trope devoid of any nuance. I wouldn’t be surprised if it was hatched by Pharmaceutical companies as a marketing strategy.

Antivaccine is one who believes crazy conspiracy theories. This would be a quite good definition.

A devastating tweet from one of our most distinguished antivaxers…sorry, safe vaccine proponents:

“Time to start writing the history of Covid-19. This is how we will remember the liars, the cheats, the thieves, the manipulators, the opportunists.* Immense study should (sic) more the (sic) 50% reduction in cases, 225% reduction in deaths – Ivermectin.”

I’ve been puzzling over the death reduction claim. How can you reduce deaths by 225%? Doesn’t that imply that ivermectin creates life?

Here’s the tweeter (twit?), Dr. James Lyons-Weiler at the ivermectin infusion switch.

*must be an oversight that he didn’t mention shills.

Wow! Ivermectin most really be something special, if it can produce more living people than there would have been dieing.

Lyons-Weiler’s ivermectin claims (including “225% reduction in deaths”) have resulted in a “Misleading” tag by Twitter.

You don’t say.

If you want people to believe your fake statistics, it’s best not to make them logically impossible.

Dr DG wonders elsewhere … about Bill Maher

Well, he’s continuing as usual ( see Aynsley, Daily KOS) about woke-ism and cancel culture, accompanied by Bari Weiss. Both of them think that Covid is over and it’s time to move on, repeating many of the tropes we hear here though anti-vax/ Covid denialism LITE: ” It was supposed to go away. I did everything I was told and the government still wants restrictions. They were wrong many times” etc.
However, a new congressman, Ritchie Torres responded to both of them with data and a smile.

Maher is probably trying to gain a larger, less liberal audience. His material has been Tucker, Gary Null and other alties.

For years, I’ve encouraged a vaccine mandate to make them less “green” (i.e., not manufactured with natural rubber latex) but Orac and some of his minions resisted.

@ Dangerous Bacon,

Why is Orac’s respectful insolence clear as mud, sometimes?

“Our objective is to end the vaccine mandates, and, also: no vaccine passports, no vaccination for healthy children, no to censorship, no to limits on reasonable debate and this censorship and propaganda that we’re constantly bombarded with. We believe in the power of natural immunity. We believe and insist on informed consent, and we insist on doctors and patients making decisions without interference together.”

I am assuming Orac objects to “no to censorship, no to limits on reasonable debate” ?

I think we can feel pretty confident that anyone who advocates censorship of opposing ideas is a propagandist.

I think we can feel pretty confident that you’re a pathetic troll who is completely devoid of intellectual honesty … and possibly you’re so stupid that you actually believe your “logic”.

“no to…this censorship and propaganda that we’re constantly bombarded with”

So, it’s bad to “censor” them, but OK to shut down “propaganda” from opponents?


@ Indie Rebel

So you think we should allow public forums for neo-Nazis, racists, people advocating drinking bleach to treat COVID? Where do you draw the line or, perhaps, you don’t?

And, MORON, given the huge number of Americans who have NOT been vaccinated and/or don’t wear masks, practice physical distancing, etc., what do they base their decisions on? Have you heard of Fox News, One America News Network, 100s of blogs; e.g., Age of Autism, OpEds in newspapers, letter-to-the-editor, testifying before Congress, State Houses, City Governments, mass protest which are reported in the news, both TV and print, etc and social media?

So, after two years of antivaxxers, who don’t, like you, understand immunology, etc. some forums have stopped carrying theirs and your stupid ill-informed black and white views. Synagogues don’t allow Evangelical Christians to go up front, Christian Churches don’t allow Islamic believers to go up front and preach. Schools don’t allow or aren’t supposed to allow such. When I was in high school algebra in walked Youth for Christ. Teacher sat down and the devoted 10 minutes to selling Jesus, then asked who would come forward to dedicate their lives, left me the only one sitting and I was harassed after that. In my high school algebra class, so would it be censorship to not allow such???

You just keep repeating your ignorant extreme biases.

“Who advocated drinking bleach? You just keep repeating your ignorant extreme biases.”

Tu quoque is the fallacy of schoolchildren.

And even if no one has done exactly that, that small bit of hyperbole does not indicate an extreme bias. Rather, making that charge based on that singled out claim indicates an extraordinary level of intellectual dishonesty.

It seems as though local news outlets are preparing to cover the event ( e.g. ABC Washington, 11alive, the Independent, others): there is worry that additional political activists might arrive for January 6th type protests so there is an increased security presence. The permit estimates 20,000 protestors. RFK jr adds that ” any rally in DC can be a super-spreader event”. I’m not sure if he means that same way Orac and his minions might though.
Kennedy’s Child Health Defense site will have videos.

@ highwire talk has a live feed of the event. JP Sears was speaking about Dr King and how the participants’ future descendants were currently ” voices on the wind” thanking them. Some guy sang. Number of people watching the live feed ranged between 180-250.

The crowd is visible and does not extend very far. Unfortunately, my resident crowd size estimator is currently occupied elsewhere. I’ll watch more.

The HW feed shoots into the crowd only, straight on. MSNBC ( at 12.35) showed a reporter walking behind the crowd, in front of the pool, showing that the protestors were ON THE STEPS of the memorial only. ( see images US Lincoln Memorial). Doctors in white coats.

News from the front….

Interesting camera angles @ highwire talk live. News reporters show otherwise.
JP is MC. Several doctors speak. Including Malone who has a horse farm ( the jokes will write themselves).
Good commentary from Mehdi Hasan ( MSNBC) who discussed Trumpism, anti-vax and social media. He likens anti-vax, anti-mask doctors/ scientists to the fringe experts of climate change denial. Demonisation of Dr Fauci.
I guess that Del and RFK jr will go on last.

To sum up..
Well, that’s over 3 hours I’ll never get back although I did cook, wash my hair, clean the microwave and groom the cat while I listened
–RFK jr ranted about how his freedom of speech was being compromised as he spoke for over 30 minutes on a microphone on the steps of the memorial
— various others spoke to varying effect
— Del was last and he invoked G-d
–The Independent wrote that “several thousand” attended not the 20,000 promised
— NBC’s Ben Collins and Brandy Zadrozny provided reality based commentary. She noted how anti-vax is off limits on social media so they call it ” anti-mandate” instead. MSNBC

Former NBA star John Stockton deserves at least some mini-insolence.

He’s achieved better than an antivax triple-double – appearing in an antivax documentary,
refusing Covid vaccination (it’s those “chemicals”, you see), claiming hundreds of thousands (millions?) of Covid vaccine deaths, alleging hundreds of athletes dropping dead on the field due to Covid vaccination, idolizing RFK Jr. and the wonderful science on CHD etc.
Also touts chiropractic and other “holistic” care.

His alma mater, Gonzaga has banned him from home games for refusing to wear a mask.

@ Chris

You write: “Who advocated drinking bleach? You just keep repeating your ignorant extreme biases.”

Actually President Trump did. He didn’t say bleach, just injecting, using disinfectants, which included bleach, Lysol, etc. And some people did drink and/or inject bleach and some DIED!
There are lots of newspaper articles on this. I won’t bother giving any since you have shown you know how to search the web.

And no comment that reactions of public and/or police to mask usage or non usage doesn’t in any way, shape, or form reflect on the validity of the science. Some cops, tasering people, crossed the line, just as others who tried to pull off masks; but ASSHOLE, again, says nothing about the science.

And, I don’t like wearing masks, don’t like wearing seatbelts, and when I used to bicycle, didn’t like wearing helmets; but I did because the science, etc. made it clear they reduced, not ended, risks.


@ Chris and other child killers. What the F is the matter with you?

Hate to pour salt in the wound .. I couldn’t believe it if I had a billion dollars to show my creds. Who the hell are you to tell people to eat bleach?

@ Chis

From one article: “President Trump’s public questioning at a press
conference in April of whether an “injection inside” the body of a disinfectant
could kill the virus. His remarks led poison control centers and manufacturers
of cleaning products to reiterate that disinfectants and cleaners should not be
ingested, inhaled, or injected. The president later claimed he was trying to prank reporters with his remarks.”

Andrew Joseph (2020 Jun 5). CDC: Some Americans are misusing cleaning products —
including drinking them — in effort to kill coronavirus. STAT.

I have more. Maybe Trump was joking; but really stupid in middle of pandemic to joke and whether he was or not, some people just accepted what he said.

@ johnlabarge

So, dozens of different newspaper articles are all lying and actually I vaguely remember his press conference, not exact wording; but what could have been interpreted by IDIOTS like you to mention possibility of some internal, whether injecting or drinking cleaning solutions, e.g., bleach, Lysol, etc.

And the “fine people hoax” well, that one I directly remember him saying.

You can believe what you want; but YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT

To be fair, the original news video I saw had Trump suggesting that maybe something could be done inside the body with disinfectant. Rather than directly saying drink it or inject it. It was astonishingly stupid but not a direct recommendation in that video. There were probably a few that tried it anyway.

Defeat the Mandates” post mortem
Today, I noticed that many outlets and news shows highlighted this event and RFK jr’s comments re Naziism. Chris Hayes ( MSNBC) expressed exasperation that amongst industrialised nations, only the US and Russia had a large number of strongly resistant anti-vaxxers ( 20% compared to 5-6% or less in the other countries). Brandy Zadrozny, his guest, remarked that they could align with other radical movements and how widespread it was amongst “people you may know”, in other words, those not totally flaky. Del. she said, strode upon the stage, ” like a rockstar”,
which got me thinking:
I’ve read about his background in television production BUT more intriguing is earlier-
his mother was a performer and his father, a small time criminal turned performer and later, minister. ( his parents sold supplements etc at their church in Boulder)
–Del’s mother homeschooled him from 3rd grade ( no note of any graduations) and he performed on the stage in NY as a child, later in “Hair” and other productions and in a band with his wife ( they opened for the Goo Goo Dolls). The internet reveals his list of films ( director, writer, performer) especially revealing is one with his wife in a bathtub.
Perhaps being a cult leader fulfills his need for having an adoring audience, hanging on
his every word and impassioned pleas. THis time, he bellowed ” Freedom” at his enraptured followers and invoked the Lord.
But then watching some other anti-vax cult leaders I know, I am reminded of old time films in which a lawyer ( or simple citizen) speaks about the abuses of power or the unfairness of the wealthy and mobilises the crowd to “do the right thing” who march away triumphantly. Theatricality and grift go so well together

Is asking for proof of vaccination or requiring masks force or merely part of the social contract? If you want to participate in society, you need to do certain things:
pay taxes, drive your car on a particular side of the road, pay for groceries or other purchases with a certain type of money/ credit, wear clothes in public, refrain from proscribed activities. The same about employment: you can’t walk into an office and demand a job but have to prove that you have qualifications, education and experience and then act in a specific manner as required.

One requirement of polite society involves not infecting other people with viruses that could conceivably kill them or make them very ill.

“resist government with violence”? I only have to resist the fellas who come to the door to give the vax. With a determined government would I ultimately lose that battle? Probably. But guess what if enough people do what I do those officials that come to force the unsafe pharmaceutical product, they’ll think twice.

@jjohn labarge Firstly, do you really think that this form of vaccination will ever happen ? Secondly, government probably would in army in a case of mutiny.

Yeah, I’ve been debating whether to do a followup post on the march after my pre-march post last Friday, but I’m not sure I will, at least not a blow-by-blow. I’m thinking more of doing a post that looks at a more general question that the march prodded me to think about again.

1) you can still infect others with the vaccination at basically the same viral load
2) I have no obligation to be a big Pharma experiment. That’s what the 2nd amendment is for.

“you can still infect others with the vaccination at basically the same viral load”

I see someone has let the principles of mRNA vaccines pass them by. You could specify WHICH vaccine contains a viral load of you like.

If you’re vaccinated you can still be infected and transmit the same viral load to others. Hence the mandate is just about force and nothing else. See Israel for an example.

“If you come to my house to try to force a vaccine you take the risk. Peace through strength”

If you stay in your house and never come out then no-one gives a f#£k if you’re vaccinated.

PS still haven’t heard from you which vaccine has a viral load? Is it one of the popular ones?

No one said an mRNA vaccine had viral load. People who receive such a vaccine can acquire the virus and transmit the same viral load. That being the case there is no public benefit to vaccination. And anyway I’d rather not have myocarditis.

@john labarge If government actually mandates vaccines (enacts a law requiring vaccination) and sends somebody to your home, resistance is a crime, and armed resistance a very serious one. This will not happen though.
Intereting thing is were you got that viral load thing. Transmission is another thing-

@john labarge Re Jacobson v Massachusetts. What federal las has to do with this ? You claimed that you have a constitutional right to refuse vaccination, yet states have right to force it.
Jacobson was fined 150 current dollars

@john labarge What is the transmission probabilty ? Find out this number ?
There is studies about viral load, too:
Levine-Tiefenbrun M, Yelin I, Katz R, Herzel E, Golan Z, Schreiber L, Wolf T, Nadler V, Ben-Tov A, Kuint J, Gazit S, Patalon T, Chodick G, Kishony R. Initial report of decreased SARS-CoV-2 viral load after inoculation with the BNT162b2 vaccine. Nat Med. 2021 May;27(5):790-792. doi: 10.1038/s41591-021-01316-7. Epub 2021 Mar 29. PMID: 33782619

I’ve not claimed any constitutional right re vaccines. That’s an open question. It appears that states have some leeway to require vaccination although the penalties for noncompliance with such mandates is an open question. I assert that I have an inalienable right to not be a Pharmaceutical lab experiment and will assert that right with force if I have to.

@John Labarge,

If requiring members of society to cooperate to protect each other from being disabled or killed by a contagious disease is tyranny, then make the most of it!

The vaccine is not a safe and effective product. It makes a permanent change to the body that could be devastating. So it is tyranny to require it.

But you’ll say the consensus is that it is safe and effective. Of course amongst all those who haven’t been censored it is safe and effective. The censorship of those doctors who have concerns actually tends to be a strong argument for lack of safety. Lack of efficacy is evident from current case surges and that term’s ever changing definition.

Of course amongst all those who haven’t been censored it is safe and effective

Convenient “reasoning” you have there: If someone says it’s safe and effective, they must not have been “censored.”

Seriously, though. Do you even listen to Joe Rogan? He’s had antivax doctors on who have said that it’s not safe and effective, and he has one of the largest audiences in the world.?

@john labarge if you want to resist government with violence, you must have more firepower than it have.
What is this CDC study you mention ? I have posted this link multiple times:
Wald A. Booster Vaccination to Reduce SARS-CoV-2 Transmission and Infection. JAMA. 2022;327(4):327–328. doi:10.1001/jama.2021.23726
“The incidence of SARS-CoV-2 was 116 per 100 000 person-days prior to booster vaccination and 12.8 per 100 000 after booster vaccination, for an estimated relative reduction of 93% (hazard ratio, 0.07 [95% CI, 0.02-0.2]).”

@john labarge Actually, states have right to institute vaccine mandates, and penalty would be a small fee.
Otherwise, do you think that somebody could force you to participate a clinical trial ?

@john labarge What permanent change do you mean ? That immune memory cells are generated ? That is the whole point.

@ johnlabarge

Took me two minutes to find YouTube videos of Trump asking about possibility of internal usage of disinfectants and “fine people”.

Here’s one URLs of internal usage of disinfectants:

As for “fine people”, found several YouTube video’s. He ignores that the alt-right that showed up had Nazi flags and were armed to the teeth and it was one of them who drove car into leftists, killing one and seriously injuring many more. I watched it, the vast majority who attacked were from the right. So, fine people on both sides:

It is really tiresome when you and others either display incredible stupidity or dishonesty.

@ johnlabarge

You write: “Doctored videos. Find the transcripts.”

And you know they are “doctored” because? YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT

Here is one of the Transcripts:

supposing we hit the body with a
tremendous whether it’s ultraviolet or
just very powerful light and I think you
said that hasn’t been checked but you’re
gonna test it and then I said supposing
you brought the light inside the body
you can which you can do either through
the skin or in some other way and I
think you said you’re gonna test that
too sounds interesting
right and then I see the disinfectant
where it knocks it out in a minute one
and is there way we can do something
like that by injection inside or almost
a cleaning because you see it gets in
the lungs and it does a tremendous
number long so it’d be interesting to
check that so that you’re gonna have to
use medical doctors with but it sounds
it sounds interesting to me the new
headline is trumpets people to go
outside that’s dangerous here we go same
old group you ready I hope people enjoy
the Sun and if it has an impact that’s
great I’m just hearing this not really
for the first time I mean there’s been a
rumor that you know a very nice room or
that you go outside of the zone or you

I don’t see bleach in that transcript. Do you? Are we aware of compounds that help disinfect the body? Has this ever been done before (hint I think it has long ago). Did Trump advise people to go off and do this? No.

Wow. I watched him say the “Very fine people. On many sides. Many sides.” Line LIVE. I WATCHED IT. LIVE. So did, if you believe Trump, millions of people.

I was just talking with my SO the other day about whether there are people roaming the earth who are really stupid enough to believe Trump and company’s lies or if they are just so desperate to be angry with someone they go along with what they clearly know to be false. Which are you?

Again, to recap: I watched him say that LIVE. So did a helluva lot of people. You think it is a doctored video. Let that sink in.

@ MedicalYetisays you’re stupid enough to believe the establishment media. Trump did not say that the Neo Nazi’s were fine people. That whole interpretation is asinine. Check your Orange Man Bad! confirmation bias. If you don’t like Trump that’s fine. Trusting the media when they lie is a chump move though.

Hope that people who attended the “Defeat The Mandates” rally have plenty of ivermectin* on hand in case they managed to infect each other.

A Texas conservative activist, Kelly Canon has died of Covid-related pneumonia, a month after being at a “symposium” also attended by Dr. Peter “there’s no clinical reason to go get vaccinated” McCullough.

“Canon had announced on Facebook in November that her employer granted her a religious exemption for the COVID-19 vaccine.”

“No jabby-jabby for me! Praise GOD!” she wrote at the time.”

*along with bleach and urine.**
**drinking the urine of Purebloods who’ve never been vaccinated but had Covid-19 might be just the ticket.

“No jabby-jabby for me! Praise GOD!” she wrote at the time.”

Well, now she can meet her maker and tell him her praise in person.

Here’s something I wondered about for a while:
Kennedy’s wife, Cheryl Hines, was asked if she agreed with his position and she said that they “differ” on some current issues ( see @ cheryl hines; Daily Beast today). She works on Larry David’s HBO show which has quite few Jewish actors, writers and producers.

Wow. I love Neil Young. Thanks for the info! That is a forceful decision worth some good.


I just don’t understand what Rogan is doing. His podcasts used to be relatively interesting. He had that loon on who said he deconstructed UFOs at Area 51. He had Alex Jones on and held his feet to the fire over the Sandy Hook lies. Not everyone’s cup of tea but it was interesting to listen to. Most people with intact critical thinking skills can listen and hear the fallacies as they flow in real time. Many guests would check him on his assumptions and he would change his mind. He would ask people making outrageous claims where their proof is or why others haven’t found this miracle they’re touting. That’s all ceased.

I would sometimes yell “You’re wrong, Joe” at the dashboard but I never felt like turning it off until the pandemic. He seems to be in an active war with CNN over them saying he took “Horse paste.” He’s turning his entire show into a platform to wage that war and he’s losing listeners. Any doctor who has actually taken care of covid patients could have come on that show with that loon McCollough and dismantled everything he said in real time. All Rogan had to do was put a call out to his local ICU; heck-even local medicine service on any floor of any hospital.

I suspect Spotify is already regretting their contract with him and the sums they’re paying. On the other hand? Maybe not. “There’s no such thing as bad press” right?

@ Dr Yeti:
( I’ve never actually heard Rogan’s show) He sounds like the dudes I survey: they’ll say anything to get more listeners/ followers. He may have started out honestly trying to be entertaining and finding controversial guests but became focused upon getting the numbers higher. Anti-vax has been a way to achieve that goal. If you see Mike Adams’ articles/ broadcasts on his site, the ones with the highest numbers seem to involve vaccination or the next apocalypse or both. If you scan Gary Null’s sites, you’ll see that there isn’t a hair brained CT that he doesn’t cover : 911, who killed MLK, 5G as well as fantastical cures for cancer or aids and vaccines.

Del, as I’ve discussed above, wanted to be an actor/ singer/ producer ( I think I’ve seen him in a commercial for an NSAID) but found his niche by promoting anti-vax.
I’ve written how two of the aforementioned probably wanted to become scientists/ doctors but failed to be accepted by appropriate universities or programmes so instead, they cosplayed these roles. Adams has a BS in “technical writing” and Null has an assemblage of career school, alternate paths to a degree and correspondence “degrees” But they present as “scientists” cargo cult-wise.

@ johnlafarge

You write: “I don’t see bleach in that transcript. Do you? Are we aware of compounds that help disinfect the body? Has this ever been done before (hint I think it has long ago). Did Trump advise people to go off and do this? No.”

Yep, he didn’t mention bleach; but “disinfectant”. Wikipedia: “A disinfectant is a chemical substance or compound used to inactivate or destroy microorganisms on inert surfaces.” So, Trump didn’t mention specifically bleach or Lysol, etc; but any disinfectant is for external usage only. Given bleach and Lysol are two of the most used disinfectants, and the reaction of many, not unexpected that some would choose to inject/drink bleach or Lysol. By analogy, if someone just says use an antibiotic for an infection, without checking for risk of anaphylactic shock, some untrained person might give someone penicillin. Not a perfect analogy; but makes the point, though I doubt a MORON like you would understand.

You are nitpicking. Trump may not have directly told people to go off and use; but given desperate people and the hint may help, some did. So, Trump’s statement was irresponsible; but given one can go online to websites that collected ALL or MOST of his lies, sometimes even contradicting himself, you don’t care and probably are a Trump supporter. Oh well. Just one more MORON posting comments. Oops! Maybe Trump was right, since people like you without normal intelligence could be considered “INERT” mentally???

The claim is that Trump advised people to ingest bleach. That claim is 100% false. Not just a little false. Should Trump have riffed on medical procedures he didn’t fully comprehend – no it shows a lack of discipline. But that’s where the honest criticism ends and the nonsense he asked people to drink bleach begins. There are disinfectants that can be ingested to be sure. Look up Irradiation and separately hydrogen peroxide. Criticizing Trump is fine. Like I said there are times where his communication lacked significant discipline and judgment for a President. Lying about him or accepting media lies uncritically like a brain washed idiot reveals you for the chump you are.

Desperate, John, very desperate. Have some self respect and let it go. He made a stupid statement because he’s incapable of understanding when to stfu.

@john labarge Trump said that perhaps people should inject themselves disinfectants. (bleach is one)This is actually worse than saying that people should drink them. So your defense is quite precious,

@ johnlafarge

You write: “There are disinfectants that can be ingested to be sure. Look up Irradiation and separately hydrogen peroxide. ”

“Despite the purported benefits of drinking hydrogen peroxide, research and medical experts agree that drinking this compound can have serious side effects. When drunk, hydrogen peroxide reacts with a natural enzyme in your body, producing very high amounts of oxygen. When the amount of oxygen produced is too high to physically burp out, it can cross over from your gut into your blood vessels, leading to potential complications, such as heart attacks or stroke. The severity of complications depends on the volume and concentration of the hydrogen peroxide that was ingested. For instance, accidentally swallowing a small amount of household 3% hydrogen peroxide usually causes minor symptoms, such as bloating, mild stomach pain, and in some cases, vomiting. However, ingesting larger amounts or higher concentrations of hydrogen peroxide can cause ulcers, a perforated gut, and mouth, throat, and stomach burns. In severe cases, it may result in breathing problems, fainting, and even death.
The bottom line
Hydrogen peroxide is touted as an alternative health remedy for a range of health conditions. However, there’s no scientific evidence that drinking it yields any benefits. Plus, doing so is linked to dangerous side effects, including breathing problems, severe gut damage, and in some cases, death. For these reasons, drinking any concentration or amount of hydrogen peroxide is not recommended. [Alina Petre (2020 Feb 21). Drinking Hydrogen Peroxide: Is It Safe? Healthline.] Note I have textbooks and medical journal articles on; but the aforementioned easily found on the internet.

AND MORON, radiation is not called a disinfectant. “The use or application of ionizing radiation, especially in medical treatment and for the sterilization or preservation of food.” I guess you don’t understand the difference between “disinfectant” and “sterilization”. AND MORON, one doesn’t drink irradiation. “Radiation therapy usually refers to treatment by x-rays and gamma rays. X-rays are produced by bombarding a tungsten target with high-speed electrons in a vacuum tube; gamma rays are emitted during the decay of radioisotopes. X-rays may be employed to kill organisms causing skin diseases, for example, or to destroy the abnormal cells that form tumors. Gonads, blood cells, and cancer cells are especially sensitive to radiation, particularly to x-rays and gamma rays.”

You write: “The claim is that Trump advised people to ingest bleach. That claim is 100% false. Not just a little false. Should Trump have riffed on medical procedures he didn’t fully comprehend – no it shows a lack of discipline. But that’s where the honest criticism ends and the nonsense he asked people to drink bleach begins.”

Once more dimwit, he said “disinfectant”, “injected”, “internally disinfect the body”. If you were to ask a few dozen strangers what products they consider disinfectants, the overwhelming majority would probably give bleach or Lysol. Given that within days of Trump’s interview people were using bleach and Lysol, it was IRRESPONSIBLE of him; but typical, to talk about things he understands absolutely nothing about. Especially when people are literally deathly afraid and desperate.

I suggest you also watch YouTube “Trump says comments on injecting disinfectants was sarcasm” Among other things it mentions Trump’s comment based on hearing about bleach as disinfectant. He claims he was only being sarcastic. Which means what he said was intentional, disregarding any responsibility for how some people might understand it.

Keep making an absolute fool of yourself.

One last time: Disinfectants are ONLY FOR EXTERNAL USAGE. There may be products that can be used otherwise; but they would be clearly labelled as such AND simple search of internet would find; but NOT bleach AND not Lysol. Watch the video.

As for calling me a “chump”, well, coming from an absolute moron, probably a compliment????

“On many sides…on many sides.” I heard it LIVE as it happened. I guess Fox News must have been in on the fix and had a time machine to rig it in real time, eh? To quote the great Dr. Joel: You are SICK, SICK, SICK. Oh, and I don’t know what orange man bad is. Sounds like something a five year old would make up.

Maybe you need to ask yourself why you are so devoted to defending that petty, pathetic jackass and serial liar who wouldn’t piss on you if you were on fire, would steal anything you didn’t have nailed down, and would do it all after he raped your sister. When you call the cops? Yeah-he’d sue you. Then he’d call you “Fake news.” Then he’d say your sister was “Too ugly to rape.”

He’s not even a conservative; he’s a virus that is infecting the Republican Party. He’s the guy we all kicked out of parties after he harassed all the female guests, drank all the beer, and told everyone how rich he was.

I may be alone here in this, but I believe we need a functional, honest, honorable political right as much as we need the same on the left. They balance one another. He’s made that impossible.

@ johnlabarge

You write: “Who said anything about drinking anything?”

You wrote: “There are disinfectants that can be ingested to be sure”

“Ingestion is the consumption of a substance by an organism. In animals, it normally is accomplished by taking in a substance through the mouth into the gastrointestinal tract, such as through eating or drinking”

So, you FUCKIN ASSHOLE, you said “disinfectants that can be ingested”. And whether Trump actually said drink or inject, he clearly referred to getting disinfectants inside the body.

Since you already demonstrated your IMMENSE STUPIDITY not knowing the hydrogen peroxide is dangerous to drink or inject into the body and that irradiation is NOT an disinfectant, you just keep displaying your absolute MORONITY.

You write: “@ MedicalYetisays you’re stupid enough to believe the establishment media. Trump did not say that the Neo Nazi’s were fine people. That whole interpretation is asinine.”

He said there were fine people on both sides. Anyone but an ASSHOLE like you who watched actual footage knows that the vast majority of the right at Greensborough were some variant of neo-Nazis. I could give URLs to YouTube; but you would just claim they were doctored. Basically, anything that contradicts you is fake, which makes it impossible to refute anything you say. I imagine you suffer from paranoid delusions of world-wide conspiracies.

Are you mentally disturbed or just trying to defend the indefensible?

@ Everyone

I’m not a lawyer; but isn’t it free speech for Elizabeth Warren to express her concerns about what Amazon is marketing? She is not advocating some government action and if Amazon were to go along, it is a private company and, according to my understanding, is NOT bound by 1st Amendment’s free speech. Any comments from someone with legal training?

“Support informed consent. First do no harm.”

Now they’re saying “Where there is risk, there must always be choice”…

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