Antivaccine nonsense Medicine Politics Quackery

Paul Thomas: An antivax pediatrician de-licensed (for now)

A week and a half ago, the Oregon Medical Board suspended the licenses of two physicians, one for bragging about not wearing a mask around his patients, the second being Dr. Paul Thomas, an antivaccine pediatrician, whose continued practice was deemed a threat to his patients. It’s time for more state medical boards to step up, as Oregon’s has.

If there’s one thing that the COVID-19 pandemic has made all too painfully undeniable, it’s that there are a lot of healthcare professionals out who are very awful people, with very awful, unscientific beliefs about the pandemic, pushing awful unproven treatments, unscientific treatments, or even just plain quackery (often based on conspiracy theories) to prevent or treat COVID-19, while denying the efficacy of public health interventions such as masking and social distancing, using bad science to deny the severity of the pandemic, and even participating in the ongoing disinformation war against COVID-19 vaccines being waged by antivaxxers. Sadly, more than a few of these disinformation spreaders are physicians, with some of the usual antivax physician suspects jumping on the COVID-19 denial grift train so effortlessly. Sadly, physicians behaving badly is nothing new, as there are antivaccine pediatricians(!) like Dr. Bob Sears and Larry Palevsky, and many have been the times that I’ve bemoaned the seeming inability of state medical boards to act to take away the licenses of quacks like Stanislaw Burzynski (who’s managed to keep practicing in Texas since the late 1970s despite peddling nonsense) and antivaxxers who endanger their patients—or even of just run of the mill utterly incompetent surgeons, which brings me to antivax pediatrician Dr. Paul Thomas.

I was elated a week ago to see a medical board doing what medical boards should do. I’m referring, of course, to the Oregon Medical Board, which finally decided to act against the licenses of two doctors spreading disinformation about medicine and thereby endangering their patients and the public, Dr. Steven LaTulippe and Dr. Paul Thomas, the latter of whom will be the main topic of this post, for reasons that will become apparent as you continue to read. I will, however, mention first why the Oregon Medical Board suspended Dr. LaTulippe’s license first:

From a local news story:

The Oregon Medical Board suspended the license of an Oregon doctor who said he refuses to wear a mask in his clinic while also encouraging others to not wear masks.

Dr. Steven LaTulippe told a pro-Trump rally in November that neither he nor his staff wears a mask while working in their Dallas, Ore. clinic. That violates a state order requiring health care workers to wear a face-covering in health care settings.

Members of the medical board voted Thursday evening to suspend LaTulippe’s license immediately. According to a statement on the Oregon Medical Board website, the suspension was issued “due to the board’s concern for the safety and welfare of licensee’s current and future patients.”

The indefinite suspension prevents LaTulippe from practicing medicine anywhere in the state. LaTuilippe ran a family practice clinic called South View Medical Arts in Dallas, Ore.

I found it particularly amusing that it was the Oregon Republican Party that had posted the video that led to the spotlight being shone on Dr. LaTulippe’s crank beliefs and ultimately to his license being suspended:

Nice job, Oregon Republicans! More videos like this, please, so that we can identify other COVID-19 denying quacks for the Oregon Medical Board to examine! There’s so much disinformation in just Dr. LaTulippe’s brief remarks, including his claims that SARS-CoV-2, the coronavirus that causes COVID-19 is rapidly mutating and has already mutated into something else (not true), meaning that COVID-19 is “over” (whatever that means). Someone like him should not be let anywhere near COVID-19 patients, and not just because he believes so much nonsense but because his failure to adhere to infection control protocols (like facemasks) will facilitate the spread of the virus, possibly to his other patients.

The Oregon Medical Board suspends the medical license of antivaccine pediatrician Dr. Paul Thomas

I’m more interested in the story of Dr. Paul Thomas, than that of Dr. LaTulippe. The reason is that Dr. Thomas is an antivaccine pediatrician whom I’ve been covering for nearly three year, although, oddly enough, there are relatively few posts on him given the amount of antivaccine disinformation for which he’s been responsible. Like Dr. Sears, he has also made a name for himself promoting antivaccine pseudoscience, propaganda, and disinformation, even writing a book, like the one written by Dr. Sears, that promotes an “alternative” vaccine schedule not based in science. Unlike Dr. Sears, he has claimed to do “science” to support his assertions that unvaccinated children are healthier than vaccinated children. (More on that later.) From my perspective, it appears that Dr. Thomas is much more into “integrative pediatrics” woo than Dr. Sears, which puts him on a similar level with another antivaccine pediatrician, Dr. Lawrence Palevsky, who showed up in the news a year and a half ago during all the measles outbreaks in Brooklyn and Rockland County, NY spreading antivaccine pseudoscience to Orthodox Jews.

The suspension of Dr. Thomas’ license a week and a half ago by the Oregon Medical Board provides me with the perfect pretext to discuss him, as he’s been a rising star in the antivaccine movement since around 2017 or 2018 and recently made waves with a really awful “vaxxed/unvaxxed” study that claimed to find that unvaccinated children are healthier. More importantly, it provides me with the opportunity to discuss my belief that antivaccine physicians should lose their medical licenses because, by definition, they are practicing so far below the standard of care that they endanger their patients.

Here’s a PDF of the Oregon Medical Board’s order, issued on December 3. Let’s take a look at some key passages. First, however, note how the order points out that Oregon law allows its medical board to temporarily suspend the license of a physician without a hearing when the “Board has evidence that indicates that Licensee’s continued practice constitutes an immediate danger to the public” or finds that “that Licensee’s continued practice of medicine by a physician presents a serious danger to the public health or safety”. This is important in that I don’t recall any previous cases in which a quack or antivaxxer had their license suspended because their state medical board viewed them as such a threat to patients or public health.

Let’s get to the meat of the findings, shall we?

The Board finds that Licensee’s conduct has breached the standard of care and has placed the health and safety of many of his patients at serious risk of harm. It is therefore necessary to emergently suspend Licensee’s license to practice medicine. The acts and conduct that support this Order for Emergency Suspension follow:

3.1 Licensee has published an alternative vaccination schedule that decreases the frequency of many recommended vaccines and omits others, including rotavirus. Licensee promotes his unique, “Dr. Paul approved” schedule as providing superior results to any other option, namely improved health on many measures, and fraudulently asserts that following his vaccine schedule will prevent or decrease the incidence of autism and other developmental disorders. Licensee uses this claim to solicit parental “refusal” of full vaccination for their children, thereby exposing them to multiple potentially debilitating and life-threatening illnesses, including tetanus, hepatitis, pertussis (whooping cough), rotavirus, measles, mumps, and rubella.

Licensee’s promotion of this alternative vaccination schedule exposes patients to the risk of harm in violation of ORS 677.190(1)(a), as defined by ORS 677.188(4)(a).

This, of course, is nothing new. Dr. Thomas published his book (co-authoring it with another rising star in the antivaccine movement, Jennifer Margulis), The Vaccine-Friendly Plan: Dr. Paul’s Safe and Effective Approach to Immunity and Health- from Pregnancy Through Your Child’s Teen Years, nearly five years ago. That, of course, brings up the question of why the Oregon Medical Board considered it necessary to suspend Dr. Thomas’s license on an emergent basis, before a full hearing. The most serious (to me) of Dr. Thomas’ “unprofessional or dishonorable conduct which exposed his patients to the risk of harm, as well as gross or repeated acts of negligence in violation of ORS 677.190(13)” listed by the Board in its order of emergency suspension was this one:

3.3.3 Patient D, a now 9-year-old male, was completely non-immunized. Patient D sustained a large, deep scalp laceration at home in a farm setting on August 8, 2017, and was treated with colloidal silver and with his parents suturing the wound independently. Patient D subsequently developed acute tetanus requiring intubation, tracheotomy, feeding tube placement and an almost two- month ICU stay at Doernbecher Children’s Hospital. Patient D was then transferred to Legacy Rehabilitation. Licensee saw Patient D for follow-up in clinic on November 17, 2017. Licensee’s notes documented a referral to a homeopath, recommendation of fish oil supplements, and “phosphatidyl seine.” He did not document an informed consent discussion about the risk/benefit of immunization for a child who had just sustained and still had sequelae of, and remained vulnerable despite prior infection, to tetanus, a life-threatening and disabling disease that is preventable by proper vaccination. Licensee’s care placed Patient D at serious risk of harm and constitutes gross negligence.

The standard of care, of course, after a laceration resulting in what must have been a grossly contaminated wound in a child (or adult) who has either not had a tetanus vaccination or whose tetanus vaccination status is unclear or in doubt is to recommend a tetanus booster plus tetanus immune globulin (TIG). Moreover, it’s important to note that tetanus infection doesn’t make you immune to a second infection, because it’s a toxin produced by Clostridium tetani, the bacteria tetanus that causes tetanus, that is dangerous. The child was still susceptible to tetanus when Dr. Thomas saw him after discharge and the tetanus vaccine should have been strongly recommended.

That’s not all when it comes to preventable disease due to Dr. Thomas’ medical negligence, though. For instance, there were children who were hospitalized with rotavirus infections, including a ten year old girl and twins born at 35 weeks gestation, who developed rotavirus gastroenteritis at ten months of age and required hospitalization for five days. For these latter patients, the Board does note this:

Licensee’s clinic chart contains documentation of parental refusal of vaccines, but they are inconsistent regarding specific vaccines and their timing. In addition, Patient G and Patient H’s mother stated during hospitalization that she thought her children had received rotavirus vaccine. Failure to adequately document specific parental refusal and lack of providing parental clarity constitute acts of negligence.

Correct. These cases demonstrate extreme medical negligence, and there is no excuse. Similarly, so is placing the fake diagnosis of chronic Lyme disease on a girl and then not following the standard of care to work up her symptoms:

3.3.5 Patient F is a 7-year-old female who Licensee followed in clinic for constipation, food allergies, mold allergies and possible “chronic Lyme disease. Review of her chart from Licensee’s clinic reveals that she was nonimmunized. Licensee ordered repeated IgE allergy panels and recommended elimination diets, vitamin supplements and provided antibiotics for acute infections. Licensee failed to provide an appropriate referral to a pediatric gastroenterologist to exclude a diagnosis of malabsorption or celiac disease, a referral to pediatric allergy/immunology or to pediatric nutrition. Licensee’s neglect to seek consultative support and oversight, and his failure to address Patient F’s lack of immunizations, placed the health of this patient at serious risk and was grossly negligent.

Not doing a proper, science-based medical workup to rule out potential medical and physiological causes of a patient’s symptoms and instead treating them for fake diagnoses constitute malpractice in my book.

There are also cases described in which Dr. Thomas measured antibody titers for measles, mumps, and rubella, using those levels to decide not to give the additional doses of the vaccine recommended. Never mind that, as the Board put it, except for “rare cases of suspected immune deficiency, there is no clinical indication for assessment of antibody titers” and regardless “of antibody titers, the standard of care requires a second dose of the recommended MMR vaccination”.

Then, as one might expect for an antivaccine pediatrician, there were cases in which the child developed a vaccine-preventable disease, such as an 11-year-old boy who was on Dr. Thomas’ delayed schedule and developed pertussis. One case like this involved not just failure to vaccinate, but gross patient mismanagement:

3.3.2 Patient C is a now 7-year-old male. He was admitted to Randall Children’s Hospital in August 2013 at approximately 10 weeks of life with fever and a diagnosis of Kawasaki’s disease. Licensee saw Patient C in clinic for three days in clinic with fever. Though Dr. Thomas reevaluated Patient C daily and sent repeated labs, he made a clinical decision to treat a febrile child a less than 3 months old with intramuscular ceftriaxone on the basis of a “bagged” and not catharized urine sample and in the absence of blood cultures. Any child of this age is at higher risk for serious bacterial infection (late onset group B strep, pneumococcal bacteremia, urinary tract infection, pneumonia, meningitis) as well as inflammatory illnesses such as Kawasaki’s disease. Licensee breached the standard of care by failing to refer Patient C to the Emergency Room or hospital for definitive lab testing (guided bladder tap, blood cultures done with bedside ultrasound, possible lumbar puncture) and observation. Licensee’s management of Patient C’s illness in clinic breached the standard of care. Patient C remained non immunized for pertussis and subsequently contracted pertussis when his older brother, Patient C, became ill with pertussis on September 24, 2018.

Even I know that you have to take a persistent fever in an infant under three months old a lot more seriously than Dr. Thomas did, and I’m not even a pediatrician or internist.

Here’s a particularly interesting finding by the Board. I’ll preface this finding by noting that “integrative doctors” like Dr. Thomas almost always tout their supposedly superior ability to “listen to patient concerns” and to “work with patients”. They tout their “respect” for their patients’ wishes, negatively contrasting it with, apparently, the cold, unfeeling, dismissive behavior of science-based physicians. It turns out though, that if the following allegations recounted in the Board’s order are true, Dr. Thomas is not so respectful of parents who are pro-vaccine and want the standard vaccine schedule:

3.2 Licensee is insistent and direct in his communication with parents and guardians that they should accept his alternative vaccine schedule.

What does the Board mean by that? It provides two examples:

3.2.1 A patient’s mother sought subsequent treatment by Provider X after having been “reduced to tears” by Licensee’s “bullying” her into his personal vaccine schedule against her express wishes for full vaccination for her child.

3.2.2 Patient A’s mother requested polio and rotavirus vaccinations for Patient A according to CDC Recommendations, but Licensee did not have those vaccines in the clinic, and Patient A would therefore not be able to get them. Patient A’s mother reported that the Licensee questioned why she wanted Patient A to get the polio vaccine and asked whether they were traveling to Africa. During the appointment, Licensee continually connected vaccines (not specific) with autism. Licensee asked her how awful she would feel if Patient A got autism and she could have prevented it.

So Dr. Thomas reduced one mother to tears because she wanted to follow the standard, science-based CDC-recommended vaccine schedule for her child because he tried to bully her into accepting his unproven “alternative vaccine schedule.” (Funny, but doesn’t this sound like a common description by antivax mothers of pediatricians and nurses trying to persuade them to accept the CDC vaccine schedule, that of “bullies.”) He also tried to guilt another mother into not giving her child recommended vaccines using a false claim that vaccines cause autism, an antivaccine claim that has been tested time and time and time again through numerous studies, none of which has produced any scientifically convincing evidence that vaccines cause or even are associated with an increased risk of autism. I guess that Dr. Thomas is understanding, empathetic, and willing to work with parents, as long as the parents do what he wants them to do, rather like the caricature of science-based physicians recommending the standard CDC-recommended vaccine schedule. The word “projection” comes to mind here.

And I do love what the Board wrote here:

3.1 Licensee has published an alternative vaccination schedule that decreases the frequency of many recommended vaccines and omits others, including rotavirus. Licensee promotes his unique, “Dr. Paul approved” schedule as providing superior results to any other option, namely improved health on many measures, and fraudulently asserts that following his vaccine schedule will prevent or decrease the incidence of autism and other developmental disorders. Licensee uses this claim to solicit parental “refusal” of full vaccination for their children, thereby exposing them to multiple potentially debilitating and life-threatening illnesses, including tetanus, hepatitis, pertussis (whooping cough), rotavirus, measles, mumps, and rubella.

And here:

Licensee’s false claims regarding the safety of the CDC Recommendations, his failure in following these Recommendations absent unsolicited parental refusal of vaccines, his failure to document any such refusal, and his failure to adequately vaccinate children is grossly negligent in violation of ORS 677.190(13) and exposed his patients to the risk of harm in violation of ORS 677.190(1)(a), as defined in ORS 677.188(4)(a).

Because making demonstrably false claims about vaccines in order to dissuade patients from vaccinating or parents from vaccinating their children is fraud and malpractice, as far as I’m concerned, and should be grounds to suspend or even permanently revoke a physician’s license. Dr. Thomas’s antivaccine grift has real health consequences for children, and his popularity in the Portland area has real public health risks. Indeed, he was peddling his message during a measles outbreak nearly two years ago.

Dr. Thomas: A rising star in the antivaccine movement

As I said near the beginning of this post, Dr. Thomas has been a rising star in the antivaccine movement ever since he first published his book touting his “alternative vaccine schedule”. Unsurprisingly, in his promotion of his book, one can easily find all sorts of red flags for antivaccine pseudoscience, including favorite quack tropes about “blindly following your doctor’s recommendations” or “counting on some government agency to have your best interests first,” coupled with a sales pitch for his book, his videos, and, above all, his nutritional supplements. Supplements, did I say? Oh, yes. Dr. Thomas sells lots and lots of supplements, in particular “Dr. Paul Approved Nutraceuticals” (vitamins, minerals, herbs and more) that are “selected to maintain optimal cellular function and to restore optimal cellular function for those individuals with unique dietary requirements and sensitivities”.

Because of course he does.

Unsurprisingly, Dr. Thomas has, like Dr. Palevsky, jumped on the COVID-19 denial grift train with his new book, COVID-19: Life-Saving Strategies The News Media Will Never Tell You. Here’s a rule of thumb. Whenever you see a book title about how “They” don’t want you to know something, like Kevin Trudeau, run. It’s almost certainly a scam or, at best, misinformation. I can tell just from the blurb:

Are you worried that you or a loved one might die from COVID-19? It is your healthy immune system that protects you and keeps you alive. In COVID-19: Life-Saving Strategies the News Media Will Never Tell You, Paul Thomas, M.D. provides possible solutions backed by sound science and his experience in his own clinical practice. In this book, you will discover:

  • The best type of immune-boosting diet.
  • Why a ventilator should only be used as a last resort.
  • 6 essential dietary supplements that support immunity and lung health (Hint: It’s not just about vitamin C).
  • 1 possible way to get a conventional doctor to administer vitamin C while you’re in the hospital.
  • Many other easy-to-implement key action steps to strengthen your immune system.

This book provides a way to take your destiny into your own hands and dramatically increase your chances of staying healthy. The many scientific references included in the book also make it an ideal resource for health care providers.

Hard pass.

But how did Dr. Thomas get to where he is now? Certainly, he has followed the same sort of path that Dr. Sears did, publishing a book with an “alternative vaccination schedule” that delays and omits certain vaccines based on fear-mongering antivax pseudoscience claiming that vaccines cause autism, autoimmune disease, and all sorts of other problems, but that’s not all. He’s also been good about getting favorable press coverage from local and national media figures who are prone to “false balance” when it comes to vaccine stories, as he did with Genevieve Reaume, a reporter for KATU, the Portland, OR ABC affiliate, a year and a half ago. Her story went beyond false balance and, in the midst of an MMR outbreak in Portland and Washington, basically lionized Thomas as a “brave maverick doctor” being “persecuted” by The Man for his views. The basis of the story was Dr. Thomas’ claim that he is doing “studies” of the 15,000 patients in his practice and that then those studies “showed” that unvaccinated children are rarely diagnosed with autism. Unsurprisingly, it used poor study design and incorrect statistical analyses.

As I pointed out at the time, there are issues where there are not two sides to the story. Whether the MMR vaccine causes autism is one. Worse, when it comes to conspiracy theory-based movements like the antivax movement, facts don’t matter, and presenting antivaccine pseudoscience side-by-side with science does falsely elevate the pseudoscience, no matter how much refutation to antivax pseudoscience is included. Dr. Thomas was engaging in information warfare, and it’s asymmetric warfare. He continues to do so. What do I mean?

First, Dr. Thomas has teamed up with James Lyons-Weiler, whom you might recall attacking a study that found that autism is primarily genetic and using risibly incompetent science to try to demonstrate early in the pandemic that SARS-CoV-2, the coronavirus that causes COVID-19 (which at the time was still called 2019-nCoV) was not natural and had been engineered. A while back, Dr. Thomas teamed up with Lyons-Weiler to do antivaccine “science”. One of the early fruits of that collaboration (if you can call such a rancid piece of rotten science a “fruit”) was an incompetent study, published as the COVID-19 pandemic was getting started in China, that demonized aluminum adjuvants using some really incompetent pharmacokinetic modeling. It was a wonder to behold in its awfulness. The other “collaboration” between these antivaccine cranks involved a “vaxxed/unvaxxed” study.

What is a “vaxxed/unvaxxed” or “vaccinated/unvaccinated” study? I’ll remind those who might be unfamiliar with the concept or don’t remember it. It’s any study that compares health outcomes between a vaccinated cohort of children and those of an unvaccinated cohort. In its purist form, it is a randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study comparing “vaxxed” to “unvaxxed.” Of course, such a study would be highly unethical because, by its very design, it would require that a group of children be intentionally placed in a control group that would be left vulnerable to vaccine-preventable diseases because the control group would only receive placebo vaccines. Antivaxxers don’t like it when that simple fact is pointed out to them, of course, because they really and truly believe that vaccines do more harm than good. Of course, it never occurs to them that their belief would make such a randomized, controlled clinical trial unethical as well, because they would be intentionally placing children into a group who would be—to them—being exposed to something they view as a grave threat to their health, vaccines. (After all, they believe that vaccines are toxins-laden interventions that cause autism, autoimmune diseases, obesity, alter DNA, render females infertile, and have created the “sickest generation” of children—and in some cases even kill.) True, their belief is erroneous, but intent matters. It all comes down to clinical equipoise, which is the genuine uncertainty over whether an intervention is on balance beneficial, harmful, or without detectable effect. A randomized controlled trial (RCT) of “vaxxed/unvaxxed” children violates clinical equipoise.

As a result, some of the savvier antivaxxers, who know that a “vaxxed/unvaxxed” RCT would be highly unethical (or who are at least willing to concede that the overwhelming view of physicians and scientists who do clinical trials is that a “vaxxed/unvaxxed” RCT would be highly unethical) have retreated back to suggesting observational “vaxxed/unvaxxed” studies, such as retrospective and epidemiological studies. The whole idea is that vaccines cause autism, the obesity epidemic, and in general the “sickest generation” of children, even though there is no evidence that they do. Of course, doing such a study is a hell of a lot more difficult than antivaxxers think, given how difficult it is to account for confounders and how many subjects are needed to provide sufficient power to detect differences in a condition whose prevalence is in the low single digit percentage range. Still, none of this has stopped antivaccine “scientists” and physicians from trying to do such studies. Unsurprisingly, the results are always dismal in that the studies are inevitably positive (i.e., claim to find that unvaccinated children are healthier than vaccinated children) but so poorly designed and executed that they are singularly uninformative and their conclusions are not supported by their data and design. Examples abound, unfortunately, such as risibly incompetent “vaxxed/unvaxxed” studies by Brian Hooker and Neil Z. Miller, studies by Anthony Mawson that were retracted and republished and retracted, Internet surveys by quacks about vaccinations, and a number of others that I could reference.

The even more rancid “fruit” of that collaboration, Thomas and Lyons-Weiler’s “vaxxed/unvaxxed” study, was published right before Thanksgiving. I’m not going to go into detail over why it was so bad, which you can just read here for the gory details. I will give you the Cliffs Notes version, which is that the study, apparently unable to find a statistically significant difference in health outcomes between vaccinated and unvaccinated children in Thomas’ practice using standard methods, Thomas and Lyons-Weiler invented a metric, the Relative Incidence of Office Visit (RIOV) and then did what sure looks to me like a lot of p-hacking to find statistically significant differences in the numbers of office visits for various diagnoses between the two groups as determined by billing records over 20 years. RIOV appears to have been designed to crank up sensitivity over specificity, thereby finding “differences” that might or might not mean anything (or even be real).

Worse, Thomas and Lyons-Weiler promise a “follow-up” study soon. I do wonder, though, how feasible that study will be given that Dr. Thomas can no longer treat patients, at least until there is a hearing before the Oregon Medical Board and possibly forever. (Obviously, I’m rooting for the latter possibility.) There will probably no effect, given that this has been a retrospective study. In any event, you can see how Thomas has teamed up with other antivaccine grifters to produce “science” to demonize vaccines.

Cry persecution!

Unsurprisingly, the reaction of antivaxxers to this news was to cry, “Persecution!” and “Freedom!” with a touch of “Fight forced vaccination!” conspiracy mongering. Indeed, on his website, Dr. Thomas posted this:

Dr. Paul now faces attacks on three fronts:

Dr. Paul now faces attacks on three fronts:
  1. Providence Health Plans, the largest local insurance company terminated all contracts.
  2. The State of Oregon terminated all contracts.
  3. BREAKING NEWS, the same week his data is published and CHD Defender posts about it comes:
“By order of the Oregon Medical Board, the license of Paul Norman Thomas, MD to practice medicine is hereby suspended, effective December 3, 2020, at 5:15 p.m. Pacific Time. As of this date and time, Licensee must stop practicing medicine until further order of the Board.” Integrative Pediatrics and our providers are fighting to preserve your right to direct your child’s medical care with Providence Health Plan (PHP) and with those covered by OHP (Oregon Health Plan). PHP and the Oregon Health Authority (OHP) intend to terminate our provider contracts in an effort to restrict your provider choices and force you and your children into compliance with CDC vaccine “recommendations.” In an unprecedented move the Oregon Medical board suspended my license without a hearing potentially endangering countless patients. Dr. Paul and Integrative Pediatrics have secured a team for legal action, civil lawsuits, and a class-action lawsuit against patients’ wrongful abandonment by PHP and OHA / OHP and the Oregon Medical Board.

Of course, the part about patients being “abandoned” or “endangered” is nonsense. After all, as this news story notes, Dr. Thomas has eight doctors and nurse practitioners who work for him. Surely his partner or the docs who work for him can see his patients while his license is suspended. Unsurprisingly, although his practice does very well and he is anything but poor, Dr. Thomas has started a legal defense fund, the better to milk his antivaccine fans for cold hard cash. Meanwhile, antivaxxer Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. was also rallying the antivaccine troops before this order was published:

In recent years, the Oregon Health Authority has targeted Dr. Thomas by removing his access to the CDC’s Vaccines For Children program, which pays for vaccines for low income families. Providence Health Plan and the Oregon Health Authority’s Oregon Health Plans, which are major health plans, have threatened to drop Dr. Thomas’ insurance coverage, claiming that the practice’s low vaccination rate signifies inferior care. These maneuvers could trigger a domino effect, closing down Dr. Thomas’ practice and leaving thousands of families with no pediatric care.

My response to this is that the closing of Dr. Thomas’ pediatrics practice would not be a bad thing. Quite the contrary. As for the Oregon Health Authority having removed his access to CDC’s Vaccines for Children program, I can’t help but wonder why Dr. Thomas cares, given how little enthusiasm he has for vaccinating according to the CDC schedule.

Meanwhile, Dr. Thomas’ “collaborator” took to video on Facebook:

Unsurprisingly, he starts his rant with COVID-19 disinformation, such as the “casedemic” before pivoting to ranting about the Oregon Medical Board’s action, bragging about their awful aluminum study and RIOV study. Even less surprisingly, he portrays the Board’s action as “a clear retaliation for daring to do science in the United States”. I must admit, I laughed out loud when he said that, given how utterly awful Dr. Thomas’ and his “science” was, but, hey, conspiracy mongerers gonna conspiracy monger. The Medical Board didn’t even mention the studies in its order, and state medical boards generally don’t take action regarding physician licenses based on their publications to peer-reviewed literature, no matter how awful or unethical the study. That’s not their charge, unless something in how the study was done could be proven to be a danger to patients or the public. Lyons-Weiler also pulls the “other patient” gambit because Dr. Thomas also practices—believe it or not!—addiction medicine, a truly frightening thought to me, given that he is an “integrative pediatrics” quack who is antivaccine.

Lyons-Weiler also portrays the suspension of Dr. Thomas’ license as a threat to their trial, to which I was tempted to say, “Good! It’s a scientifically crappy trial designed to generate propaganda and disinformation for the antivaccine movement”. What I’ll say instead is: How? It’s a retrospective study. The data are already there and just need to be analyzed in the manner the investigators stated that they would do. Given that there are 20 years’ worth of data, stopping now is unlikely to make any difference in the number of subjects in the study. Of course, likely Lyons-Weiler knows that, but realizes that his audience does not. He needs a threat, and he needs a hook to ask for money.

You get the idea.

State medical boards: More please!

What the Oregon Medical Board has done with Dr. Thomas (and Dr. LaTulippe) is a very rare occurrence. All too often, after being obtained for the first time medical licenses end up in practice being more like a right rather than a privilege, and it often takes incredible effort on the part of state medical boards to suspend or revoke a physician’s medical license, even quacks like Stanislaw Burzynski, who still has a Texas medical license after 40 years of Texas Medical Board efforts to stop his quackery. Look at Dr. Bob Sears, who did have his license restricted with the condition that he practice under the supervision of the Medical Board of California for three years. The list goes on.

Basically, it’s very difficult in most states (some more than others) for the state medical board to suspend or revoke a physician’s license, which is why many medical boards, by and large, tend to go after mainly the easiest, most obvious cases. That’s why the physician behaviors most likely to result in strong action against a medical license include running a prescription mill, sexual improprieties with patients, or practicing while impaired due to addiction to alcohol or illicit substances. It’s a matter of resource allocation and prioritization. State medical boards tend to react primarily to what they perceive to be the most immediately and obviously dangerous behaviors; most importantly, though, behaviors that can be definitively proven. It’s worse than that, though. In some states, Quacks like Dr. Rashid Buttar still practice and even have enough political influence among legislators to get state laws rewritten to be more favorable to quacks.

That’s why, seeing what the Oregon Medical Board did last week, suspending the licenses of two dangerous doctors in rapid succession, I can only say: More, please.

Please, sir, I want some more.
“Please, sir, I want some more.”

And, since Dr. Thomas had his license suspended, Dr. Richard Friedman, agreed with me in the New York Times.

And there was much rejoicing

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

265 replies on “Paul Thomas: An antivax pediatrician de-licensed (for now)”

Paul Thomas’ medical offences go far deeper than I had thought. He’s an incompetent physician as well as a sleaze conducting “research” on immunity with no IRB approval, no informed consent and using his own patients and insurance companies to fund it. His loss of licensing should be permanent as he has no business treating patients.

It is disappointing that more insurance plans have not cancelled their contract with his clinic, given the severity of the charges against him. I’m certain if there were actually a good pediatric care provider in the bunch (with respect to vaccines) Thomas would not have hired them.

We sure live in a free country! If you have a dissenting opinion, you get “de-licensed” and automatically get called many names. Only big pharma can produce bought and paid for science that make no sense. Disagree? you’re a conspiracy theorist! that’s in the best cases. Do you know where that term originated? When JFK was killed, anyone who didn’t believe in the magic bullet theory was a conspiracy theorist. One bullet caused 7 injuries to 2 men sitting at opposite locations! Nothing’s changed.

Poor Dr. LaTulippe, losing his livelihood just for criminally irresponsible behaviour with the added fillip of allowing himself to be recorded boasting about it. Is no nutcase doctor safe?

As usual I was impressed by the good doctor’s parochialism: “…the purpose was only to shut down the American people…” (from the recording). Apparently he has failed to notice masks everywhere from Taiwan to Canada.

Re Dr Thomas’ practice: “After all, as this news story notes, Dr. Thomas has eight doctors and nurse practitioners who work for him.” Does this imply even with Thomas suspended, we still have 8 quacks practising his brand of “health care”? Does Dr Thomas still retain policy/management control ever the clinic?

If he owns the clinic and employs the eight NPs and docs (I don’t know how many of each there are), then, yes, he retains policy/management control over the clinic. All his losing his license means is that he personally can’t practice medicine and therefore can’t see patients himself or be directly involved in medical decision making for individual patients in the practice. It’s the same dodge Andrew Wakefield, who had been struck off in the UK and had no medical license in Texas, used when he was medical director of Thoughtful House. He personally couldn’t treat patients, but he could establish policies and protocols that the other docs at the practice followed.

Firstly, how can you call him anti vax when he clearly vaccinates in his practice!? His book is called the vaccine-friendly plan for goodness sake.

Where may I ask are the CDC’s data and FDA approved studies on the safety of the combined number of vaccines given to infants in a short space of time on the vaccine schedule itself vs the spaced out vaccines that Dr Thomas offers? Right, there are none. No studies ever done to check those vaccines together are safe and not overloading the immune system or bodily toxicity in any way. How can his ‘plan’ be negligent in light of that when there are no data or studies looking at the contrary?

How many of those children referenced in his ‘transgressions’ – the one who spent 5 days in hospital with rotovirus, the boy with tetanus, etc – died? They got sick, and that is awful, but this happens, but they got well by the looks of it vs children damaged by vaccines who never live a normal life again? And go on, say the brainwash mantra words to me, I’m ready for it.. – ‘safe & effective’, well, I’ll give you one ‘word’ back: VAERS.

What about parents wishes with the aforementioned children? What if their wishes were not to vaccinate and they expressed to him they absolutely did NOT want those vaccines? This is not noted in any medical board notes.

This man would have made MORE money in his practice opting to vaccinate the majority to get his surgery kickback, so if he is ‘bullying’ parents then WOW, he must feel strongly about his research into some of these vaccines.

The bullet points you ‘hard pass’ on. Yes they are OUTRAGEOUS! Imagine trying to boost your natural immune system! Eat well? Exercise? Take vitamins – heresy! What a ridiculous idea. I’m off to Five Guys now! Then just load me up with your meds to bring down my cholesterol, diabetes, heart disease. Phew, a much better option, I feel better now..

Ahh, the inevitable ‘unethical’ excuse to non-study where the vaccinated vs unvaccinated are concerned. So why are we not vaccinating pregnant women with all the vaccines if we need to protect the most vulnerable as stopping them from having certain vaccines is surely then unethical? What about the thousands of parents who OPT not to have their children vaccinated and simply wouldn’t, regardless, who would no doubt be delighted to include them in a study population of an unvaccinated control group?

Interesting that an oncologist specialising in breast cancer is so inadvertently ‘pro-aluminium’ (which unfortunately goes hand in hand with pro-vaccine) which you don’t mention at all in any of your verbal meanderings? Ahh, wait, your work is funded by the NIH who have how many investments in vaccine patents right now? Oh and funding by the DoD? Go figure, all makes sense now..


Since I have a bit of down time at the moment, I’ll offer a few thoughts in response to the questions that you are “just asking”.

If Thomas is really pro-vax, where did he get all the unvaccinated subjects for his study? And why is he writing a book to encourage delaying childhood vaccinations which increases the time during which a child is vulnerable to potentially deadly diseases like pertussis and tetanus?
All new vaccines are studied in conjunction with the already approved schedule. There also have been dozens of studies over the last 20 years that look at the entire vaccination schedule. And there is ongoing surveillance. The overall conclusion is that vaccinated children are just as healthy as unvaccinated children and that the risk of a serious adverse event from each vaccination is about 1 in a million. If you wish to convince us otherwise, you need well-done studies with real evidence, not just questions.
It only cost a million dollars to save that boy’s life. I’m glad he survive, but Thomas apparently wasn’t pro-vax enough to convince his parents to vaccinate him to avoid a repeat in the future. Where is your evidence for those children “damaged by vaccines”?
Other doctors commenting here are able to allay the fears of parents, answer their questions and persuade them to protect their babies.
Do you have a link for where his “research” was actually published, other than his book? Has it been confirmed by other research?
Besides the risk to their children, letting the parents choose which arm of the study their children are in would break the blinding which is essential to an unbiased evaluation of the results.
The fact that the author of this blog competes with hundreds of other applicants for funding to continue researching to protect women from breast cancer has nothing to do with the safety of individual vaccines, their ingredients, or the overall schedule.

I suggest you stop beggng the question and do some serious reading on published research on vaccine safety.

I just wonder why we haven’t had decades of mask mandates for the flu, considering the tens of thousands per year who die from it. We could have saved a lot of lives–millions if you go back far enough. Did you advocate for mandatory flu masks? If not, why not? Do flu deaths not count because they register in the five-figure range annually instead of six?

We do have a vaccine for influenza. Efforts to reduce its harms have focused on broadening the vaccine take-up.

But you do have a point. Maybe we should encourage mask use during flu season, to reduce deaths and harms. There are countries where it’s a norm.

I just wonder why we haven’t had decades of mask mandates for the flu, considering the tens of thousands per year who die from it.

You can skip the Cheez Gee Whiz routine. It’s not as though nobody has tried to quantify this. You might want to arse yourself to deploy some nuance: coronaviruses are not influenza viruses, little things like that.

Currently, the world experiences seasonal epidemics of influenza. On the other hand, SARS-CoV-2 has the potential to become endemic, which would, y’know, suck.

Flu does not show up with 100% population vulnerability, and we have long had an (imperfect) vaccine to reduce impact. So the grounds for a mandate don’t exist as the do for COVID 19. That said, I would hope we will see move towards people wearing masks when they are potentially ill, as is common in places like Japan. Basic consideration for those around you should not be controversial.

At the hospital where my PI had his office they had a requirement for staff: get a flu shot or wear a mask for all of flu season. It didn’t matter why you didn’t get a flu shot (allergies vs didn’t want to), you had to wear a mask. They also temperature checked everyone at the start of every shift, and you had to wear your “temp OK” sticker the whole time you were on-site.

So hospitals have been taking action for years against influenza.

In the 10 days since he lost his license, Thomas has gone “all in” to fight his suspension with multiple interviews including Bigtree’s Highwire. Of course to anti-vaxxers the license loss is punishment for that crappy paper he and Lyons-Weiler put out a month ago. I suspect his histrionics are more to fleece his followers of “donations” to his legal defense fund then to actually save his license. I’m pretty sure Bob Sears made out like a bandit when he crowd-sourced his legal costs against the California Medical Board. It’s a shame there’s no way to prevent their grift at this level.

I do hope someone finds a way to shut down Thomas’ “Pediatric Health Outcomes Initiative” study, which is basically what Thomas inflicted upon infants and children in his practice, except he’s aiming for an even larger 5,000 patient cohort and is doing this across at least 3 sites in multiple states. Thomas somehow figured out if you don’t affiliate with anyone academic and don’t take any federal funds for research, you aren’t account to the federal Office of Human Research Protections.

Dr. Friedman’s NYT op-ed is telling–I think a lot more physicians have finally had it with the corrupt/incompetent Paul Thomases and Scott Atlases of the medical community, whose actions during this pandemic endanger not only the health of their patients but the public as well. I hope this becomes a groundswell, and quickly.

I think a lot more physicians have finally had it with the corrupt/incompetent Paul Thomases and Scott Atlases of the medical community

Good. Medical boards, like unions and other trade bodies, exist primarily to protect their members’ interests. What they tend to lose sight of is that by protecting the interests of their bad members they are actively harming their good ones.

Alas, the squeaky wheel invariably gets all the grease, so as long as the good doctors do not speak out the loudest then the bad ones, who suffer no such shyness, will continue to use those bodies and their imprimatur as their own personal army. And good doctors will suffer, and patients will suffer the most.

I wonder if it’s because good doctors feel guilty at the idea of putting their own interests first; which is what trade bodies inherently represent? If so, they need to get over that embarrassment and engage, hard. Because if the good doctors aren’t there to promote the patients’ interests, then no-one is.

As a chronic mental-health case myself, the way I’ve come to reason it is: If you can’t look after yourself first, you’ll never be in a fit state to look after anyone else. Call it enlightened selfishness. Whatever works.

“Enlightened self-interest” is the phrase I saw.
Someone once described the difference between self-interets and selfishness as follows: self-interest is putting your needs ahead of others’ wants; selfishness is putting your wants ahead of others’ needs.

I suspect that losing the contracts with an insurer could be a real threat to the whole practice.

But as with the suspension, it’s likely well earned.

It’s hard to feel bad for the rest of the practice’s medical staff when they are clearly fine working with someone who does so much harm.

Possibly, but it would depend on his payer mix. My guess is that he has a lot of self-pay patients and a concierge-like practice.

Most insurance contracts require you to notify them immediately about any case with the medical board where a ruling is made against you. Same for any hospitals you round at as well as your malpractice carrier. Lots of ramifications to the board action.

“Not only did (Thomas) not recommend tetanus vaccination (and, apparently, TIG) once when the child first presented with his laceration, but he did it a second time, not recommending it during a followup visit after the child’s hospital discharge!”

Something unclear to me from the Oregon Medical Board’s report is whether the child’s parents brought him in to see Dr. Thomas after the injury but before he contracted tetanus. Based on the news reports I’ve seen (I’m assuming this case is the one widely reported in the news media of the unvaccinated Oregon child whose medical bills approached $1 million), after the forehead injury the boy’s parents sutured the wound at home and called for medical help six days later after onset of severe signs/symptoms.* So I wonder whether administering colloidal silver was something the parents did. This of course doesn’t excuse the actions the Board reported Thomas taking when the child was taken to him for followup, or Thomas’ other reported transgressions.

I’ve read Thomas’ book. It’s an excellent example of how certain antivax pediatricians play both sides of the street. They tout their promotion of limited/alternate vaccine schedules, while propounding terribly bogus antivax memes (one chapter of Thomas’ book is headlined “Toxins, Toxins, Toxins”). That way they can pretend that they’re not antivaccine, while doing their best to scare parents away from immunizing their children at any level.

*according to the CDC, six days after the injury, the child began suffering classic symptoms of tetanus, including muscle spasms, opisthotonus (arching of the neck and back) and generalized spasticity. The CDC’s report says that later in the day, _after the boy began experiencing difficulty breathing_ his parents called for emergency medical help. Apparently the spasms and back arching weren’t scary enough.
Another story (in the Guardian) says the parents refused to consent to a second tetanus shot while the boy was in the hospital. How they retained custody after that sequence of events is a mystery.**

**The injury took place on a farm. Haven’t we been told that farm life is wonderfully healthy for children and allows them to develop a naturally healthy immune system, as opposed to living in a home where Mom sprays disinfectant all over the place and won’t let the kiddies play in the dirt? I guess there are two sides to that argument.

The initial problem was the parents who sutured the boys dirty wound at home. Sad the way you dishonestly pile it on Dr. Thomas.

Thomas claims one version of the truth. The Medical Board claims a very different one. Thomas will have his hearing and chance to prove his version. I’m sure he’ll have good legal representation. But then again, Thomas bailed on hearing with Oregon Health Authority where they stripped him of his Vaccines for Children provider contract, so maybe Thomas will no-show in front of his medical board as well. But what you call sh*tpiling is what we call exposing him for what he is–a central figure in the US anti-vaccine movement who coordinated his own state anti-vax group (which he founded) as well as linking up anti-vax groups globally through Physicians for Informed Consent (which he cofounded), as well as doing unethical and fraudulent “research” on vaccines that hurt his patients, in addition to being an online YouTube profiteer and a carpetbagging supplement pusher. He’s not just a bad apple, he is a rotting diseased tree with roots everywhere.

I think we can agree that the parents wronged the child, first by not vaccinating and not protecting him against tetanus and then by not bringing him to a doctor with an apparently serious wound.

The parents also wronged the child by not vaccinating him after he was in the hospital for months with tetanus.

Dr. Thomas is not charged with that. He is charged with not recommending that a child that got tetanus be appropriately protected from recurrence and harm. For his part in putting the child at risk and keeping him at risk after he almost died and suffered.

And as Dr. Hickie pointed out, he will have a chance to counter the claim and explain why he shouldn’t be here to account.

The initial problem was the parents who sutured the boys dirty wound at home.

That doesn’t excuse the physician’s behavior. People do stupid things all the time, One of the roles of a physician is to fix the consequences of these stupid decisions.

We are not blaming Thomas for giving tetanus to the kid. He didn’t.
(Heck, I’m not even sure I want to blame the parents for playing surgeon. I want to learn more about the context. US healthcare is expensive. I can see why some desperate and misguided people would want to try to fix things themselves.)

We are blaming this physician for not properly taking care of his patients, regardless of the shape they come in.
A doctor pretending that tetanus is no big deal and the vaccine isn’t necessary, is at best incompetent, at worse a dangerous lunatic.
Even more so in a farming community, where the bug is everywhere.

The initial problem was the parents who sutured the boys dirty wound at home.

No Natalie, the initial problem was that the parents used Paul Thomas as their paed and he failed to ensure (and encourage the parents) the child was properly vaccinated for things like tetanus. Sad the way you dishonestly leave that out.

Yup. It works be one thing if the parents sutured up the contaminated wound and Dr. Thomas urged them to let him administer tetanus vaccine and tetanus immune globulin but they refused. It’s entirely another thing if Dr. Thomas didn’t even recommend the standard of care.

The initial problem was the parents who sutured the boys dirty wound at home. Sad the way you dishonestly pile it on Dr. Thomas.

And what, then, would be the post-initial problems?

No, the initial problem is you. As long as you lying liars continue to lie (for your own greater glory and profit), then everything else is noot.

I grew up on a dairy farm.
I had no allergies when on the farm. It may be great for allergies and a naturally healthy immune system and but you do NOT want to step on a nail in a dirty barnyard without a quick trip for a tetanus shot.

My dad grew up on a farm. His allergies were so bad that the steroids required to control them stunted his growth, and he sometimes couldn’t be in the same room as other members of his family if they came inside after being in the fields, due to the amount of pollen on their clothes.

I recall reading that the hospital bill for Patient D, excluding the rehabilitaion costs, was $800,000.

I am sure that no insurance company is going to fully cover that, but whatever they do cover, and if the parents go broke owing the rest of it and the rehabilitation care, both those great expenses are due to Peter Thomas’ gross negligence of the standard of care as well.

So, if he doesn’t care whether his child patients live or die, he might care about the fanatastic expense that he caused, and for which, for all I know, he is civilly liable.

@Garnetstar: I think the state ended up paying all of it because the parents had neither insurance nor income.

As to whether the patient got the rehab, unknown.

Another thought about Dr. Thomas’ practice. It’s hard not to get the impression that he became more anti-vaccine over time, especially given his comments about the most recent bad study. I wonder what he was telling parents just before the suspension about the vaccines. Because if he really believed his horrible, invalid study, I expect he was recommending to parents not to vaccinate at all. He may not be where he was a few years ago.

In the March 2019 Wilmette Week expose on him, Thomas said “I would be fine not vaccinating my grandchildren” which pretty much puts him 110% anti-vax.

When Thomas spoke at the inaugural meeting of Physicians for Informed Consent in March 2017, he said:

Today I’m getting new families every day and almost all of them don’t want any vaccines, so I’m gonna have to re-do some data. You know you give people choices and the smart ones make good choices.

So in 2017 he was all anti-vax as well.

I actually suspect he was fully anti-vax in 2008 when he left a pediatric group in Portland that vaccinates on the CDC schedule to start his own clinic. Thomas has stated several places that in the early to mid 2000’s he was going to Defeat Autism Now meetings and “doing his own research”. I wouldn’t be surprised if Thomas saw how well financially anti-vax physicians like Wakefield, Sears and Gordon were doing and decided he wanted some of that. But Thomas was gonna be a scientist and own clinic was his ticket to do that–which actually meant he had to allow some vaccinated patients othewise he couldn’t do his unethical and worthless study. Now that he feels he got his “science”, he can be full-on, openly 110% anti-vax.

Dr. Peter Hotez a couple of years ago put forth a diagram showing the anti-vax movement’s political and social media arms as counter rotating gears opposing science and public health. Thomas, aided by Lyons-Weiler (and his anti-science IPAK) along with aluminum crank scientist Exely are supposed to be a 3rd counter rotating cog in the anti-vax machine. Unfortunately the pandemic is giving them more fuel than they’d otherwise have, but man are they pushing hard to spin it up before it gets shut down. The OMB just threw a big wrench in their plans.

Dr Hotez ( last week, MSNBC) discussed how disinformation about vaccines can be attributed to foreign interference, local rightwing political groups, funding from wealthy sponsors and alt med entrepreneurs.
I’m glad he is being featured as much as he is, as is Dr Fauci.
It must be torture to anti-vax believers because both of them are given the microphone instead of being scorned.

You know you give people choices and the smart ones make good choices.

Yes, the smart ones take their children and run away from dr. Thomas’ practice as soon as het starts talking about his ideas about vaccinations.

Dr. Hickie, you don’t force your patients to get vaccinated if they refuse. What if one of your patients, who refused tetanus vax, contracted tetanus? Would you be liable? No. You would have CYA with an AMA after counseling the parents. Ultimately, responsibility falls on the parents….not Dr. Thomas.

Wrong. If Dr. Thomas urged them to let him give the child tetanus immune globulin C and the tetanus vaccine, then you’d be correct. But he didn’t. If he did recommend them but didn’t document it, in the eyes of the law that’s the same thing as not having done it and incredibly stupid and irresponsible, to boot. Of course, Dr. Thomas almost certainly didn’t offer the standard of care.

Except, Natalie, “Doctor” Thomas didn’t write an AMA. He supported the parents’ decision in violation of best practice. In addition, as was pointed out by Orac, he tried to talk at least one patient out of vaccinating their child.

Dr. Hickie, you don’t force your patients to get vaccinated if they refuse. What if one of your patients, who refused tetanus vax, contracted tetanus? Would you be liable? No. You would have CYA with an AMA after counseling the parents.

You’re cleftastic, Natals.

Natalie, there is also such a thing as “Duty of care.” If someone comes in expecting doctoring, I have to behave like a reasonable doctor. Chest pain and EKG changes? You go to the ED…I can’t handle that outpatient. You come into the ED and I see you have elevated trops? I ship you downstairs to cath. I don’t bloviate on about how “Big Cardiology” is ripping you off and send you home with willow bark and a copy of my new book “Don’t trust your lyin’ heart, eat more kale.”

If you cannot see how this is no different than what went on, I feel you need to ask yourself just what side you’re on. He had a duty to care. ANY reasonable physician, mid level, hell – PARAMEDIC would have known that required a tetanus shot if kiddo hadn’t had a recent one. Are you on the side of “F*ck the duty, every doctor should do whatever he/she wants!” Are you really a proponent of that position?

Dr. Hickie, you don’t force your patients to get vaccinated if they refuse. What if one of your patients, who refused tetanus vax, contracted tetanus? Would you be liable? No. You would have CYA with an AMA after counseling the parents. Ultimately, responsibility falls on the parents….not Dr. Thomas.

No I would never force vaccination when a parent declines a vaccine. What I do is have the sign the AAP vaccine refusal form which I also sign and then I also document in the visit note which vaccines were declined and that I reviewed with parents the risks of not vaccinating versus the benefits. Some parents now won’t sign the AAP form, and if so I document that as well. If those are in the chart (with a copy of the signed AAP form given to the parent) and the child then catches the infection they were not vaccinated against, I’ve been told I should be well protected from any board action or malpractice suit. I also document at every visit where vaccines could be given that I offered those vaccines and whether or not the parent accepted or declined. Thomas however, appears not to have been as thorough in his documentation which is surprising given how much he says he practices informed consent relative to the rest of us peds.

Thank you, Dr Gorski, for your blog. So good to hear the voice of sanity. Progress is being made, albeit slowly. David Icke is still alive and living on the Isle of Wight but surely the appropriate authorities will take action one day.

David Icke should’ve been sectioned 30 years ago; though you cannot help those who will not help themselves, and psychotics are notoriously non-compliant. But at least time will finally fix him. I’m more concerned for new generations soaked in the perpetual firehose of lies and hate. There was nothing like it when I was growing up; just learning how to endure it is a massive curve, never mind how to push it back where it’s already taken root.

re Dr Thomas’ Covid denialism grift:
his book focuses upon ways to enhance the immune system and supposedly, avoid infection with the virus and other viruses/ bacteria. Since the start of the pandemic, many of the sites I follow** have presented reams of misinformation about Covid ( how it is not deadly, only affects the seriously ill, it is easy to treat/ cure, how infection is actually ‘good’ for you,etc)
offering products, diets and literature that promises a better immune system and/ or cure for viral diseases.***
However, no one is taking their licenses.. oh wait, they don’t have any as there is no license to prescribe woo – ( Mercola no longer practices medicine technically so I’m not sure if he keeps his license up)

** PRN, Natural News, Mercola, Stop Mandatory,
*** I was recently shocked to see the variety of “immune products” at a local outlet that sells beauty and health products ( supplements, OTC meds) some labelled as such: elderberry extract, vitamins C or D, Zinc everywhere

As I noted several weeks ago (while I was still in Chicago), I was quite amused that the local Whole Foods had imposed limits on how many units of such nostrums that customers could purchase per visit. I might have hoped that the denizens of my alma mater’s fiefdom would have had a bit more sense than to put elderberry extract in short supply.

Lyons-Weiler was just livid that Facebook used an explanation of why his study is crap which refers to Dr. Gorski to fact-check posts claiming his study shows unvaccinated children are healthier.

He is a “real objective scientist”, damnit, and you don’t even know what a metric is. He didn’t use a metric in his study, damnit!

He also threatens you with a defamation lawsuit.

Break out the popcorn for this one as he struggles to refute your criticisms while just revealing how poor of a scientist he really is.

I’ll pass, thanks. If he’s going to sue, he’ll sue. Or he won’t. Either way, there’s not much I can do about it. That’s the attitude I take these days when it comes to cranks like him ranting about “defamation” in response to one of my posts.

Anyone who can make it through a Lying Wailer videocast deserves some sort of award. JLW is basically saying “I made this RIOV thing up but don’t you dare say I made it up and yes I’m using it is a crappy proxy for incidence of diagnoses (because we couldn’ p-hack that to any statistical significance) but don’t you dare accuse me of saying I’m making it a proxy for diagnosis”. Also he doesn’t seem to get that Facebook blocked the claims being made for his paper by Children Health Defense and Facebook is not blocking JLW posting links to their open access paper which sadly has been downloaded over 100,000 times. Geez JLW is a tedious you-know-what.

That pretty much sums it up, Chris.

I couldn’t make it through the whole thing myself. I stopped when the contradictions started getting to be too much, and my irony meter was blown from “they just aren’t smart enough to understand my science”, when he clearly doesn’t understand science.

“Lying Whiner” is a thing. And I’d defy any court of law to not find that a stone-cold Fact.

(Well, okay, mebbe East Texas. But then, only steers and queers come from Texas, and he don’t look like a queer to me so I guess that narrows it right down.)

Looking at the OMB complaint, I just realized it’s stated he collected MMR titers on 905 patients from 2002 to 2015. This means Thomas was up to anti-vax hijinks much earlier when he was in a conventional practice from 2002-2007. No wonder they parted ways with him and I’m sure him taking that patient info from their practice likely violated his termination contract with them. But the ends justify the means for these folks.

It’s been fun watching the evolution of contenders for Most Hated Pro-Vaccine Physician.

For a long time Paul Offit was the unquestioned Dark Lord in the eyes of the antivax crowd. Then he was superseded by Peter Hotez, who not only is as staunch a defender of vaccination, but also has an autistic daughter whose condition he refuses to blame on vaccines. More recently (given the confluence of antivax and Covid denialist beliefs) Anthony Fauci may have ascended to being #1 (or #666, depending on how you view it).*

*this is not intended to minimize the contributions of other leading satanic figures such as Orac, Dorit Reiss and Skeptical Raptor.
**Now that he’s being “persecuted” by the Oregon Medical Board and has released a bogus vaxed/unvaxed study, Paul Thomas is mounting a serious challenge for the title of Supreme Antivaccine Pediatrician*. Look out, Bob Sears! (also-rans like Larry Palevsky and Jay Gordon measure lower on the Loon Richter scale, but are only a brain-dead interview or two away from jumping back into the competition).

*the acronym is incidentally appropriate.

Sears is laying low. In his just published 3rd edition of his vaccine book he doesn’t give a Dr. Bob’s Alternate schedule. He took it out purportedly because he wants the reader to develop their own schedule based on his book in conversation with their own pediatrician (yeah, fat chance), but it smells like a CYA in case the CA medical board comes after him again. Given what happened to Thomas it wasn’t bad foresight.

It’s been fun watching the evolution of contenders for Most Hated Pro-Vaccine Physician.

Sure it’s fun…and then you remember the NRA guarantees these lunatics unfettered gun-rights. Whatever happened to “guns don’t kill people; people kill people”? Almost like they want the killings to start…

More hilarity:

Today, PRN ( Gary Null Show, 15 minutes in…)
The Grand Old Man of Grift and enabler Richard Gale deconstruct Covid misinformation and show listeners how to be wary of unrealistic claims, several examples, I couldn’t listen to all of it, I stopped with the infamous Dr Shiva**

** not that Shiva
it’s the guy with 4 degrees from MIT who “invented e-mail”

Did they bring up that the reason for refrigerator-truck body storage was not because so many are dying but because families were not dispatching them from morgues because they want to wait for when they can have a big send-off? That’s what I heard yesterday and I’m so dissapointed in those guys.

Cheap pulse oximeters, regular phone calls, portable x-ray, and home oxygen:

@ Tim writes, “Did they bring up that the reason for refrigerator-truck body storage was not because so many are dying but because families were not dispatching them from morgues because they want to wait for when they can have a big send-off?” Probably not. It’s definitely more sensational the other way and keeps with the narrative. FEAR, FEAR and more FEAR.

I don’t know about you, but I am over public hellth and their steady campaign of fear mongering along with help from the MSM.

In addition to the annual flu scare, we have had:

West Nile 2002, SARS 2003, Bird Flu 2005, H1N1 aka Pig Flu 2009, MERS 2012, Ebola 2014, Zika 2016, Measles 2018, Coronavirus 2020.


What’s in a name? Pandemic

@ Natalie “WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!”

This is a correct and true statement. We are all, eventually, going to die. It is the state of the universe.

Have you made a death plan, so your last wishes are known to your next of kin or designated persons? Do you have a will? Now, while we are all considering our mortality, is a good time to get these things done. A good place to start is The Order of the Good Death.

(I’m going for organ donation and natural burial, composting or aquamation. Do still need to do a will.)

It’s a good thing people stopped having heart attacks, strokes, allergic reactions, overdoses, acute appendicitis, car wrecks, and cancer to make room for all those covid drama queens.

It’s definitely more sensational the other way and keeps with the narrative. FEAR ME, FEAR ME and more FEAR ME.


What’s in a name? Pandemic

I see you’ve had it with the “MSM” yet can’t even figure out how to trim tracer tokens from your disgorged links. Well played.

@Natilie “WE’RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!”

What’s wrong with raising alarm about West NIle and bird flu and EEE? We still get those every summer here (they’re spread by mosquitos), and most of the victims die.
So, every summer the state checks for these viruses and puts out warnings. Sometimes they spray to kill mosquitos, against the usual practice of various towns, and one summer all evening outdoor events (concerts, fireworks, etc.) were banned, for the whole summer. And they had warning signs flashing on all the highways, telling the danger and to avoid mosquito bites.
Saved a lot of people’s lives, mine probably included. So, why are you complaining about it?

West Nile 2002, SARS 2003, Bird Flu 2005, H1N1 aka Pig Flu 2009, MERS 2012, Ebola 2014, Zika 2016, Measles 2018, Coronavirus 2020.

Demonstrating your ignorance of epidemiology (or any science for that matter) yet again, not to mention your penchant for hyperbole. Outbreaks don’t come with instructions; we can’t readily know what will create a pandemic so an abundance of caution must be enacted. Some of these diseases listed have had high mortality rates and inflicted horrible suffering and lifelong disabilities but here you are scoffing because they haven’t affected your white privileged bum.

Count the deaths. How many COVID deaths there are ? You actually should be scared,

it’s the guy with 4 degrees from MIT who “invented e-mail”

Because an engineer is your go-to person for accurate medical information.

Actually, Shiva appears to me as just another grifter looking for a niche to operate in. He has dabbled in GMOs, vaccines, and now pandemic denial.

Because an engineer is your go-to person for accurate medical information.

Really dude: software engineer. Not something you’d ever go to for reliable engineering information either. Or do you want our Chris to wash your mouth out with soap?

In COVID-19: Life-Saving Strategies the News Media Will Never Tell You

I’m sadly realizing that the Necronomicon, Great Chtuhloo, Nyarly, the King in Yellow, and all the other tentacled horrors from beyond the stars don’t exist.
If they did, and were looking for human followers by circulating around some pamphlets and books with the blurb “Things that Man was not meant to know”, we would be knee-deep in shoggies and have fish people living in the flat next door. As Terry Pratchett once wrote, the paint wouldn’t have time to dry.
Um, the soon-to-be-former US president does seem to have shoggish features… And there is this guy who see lizard men everywhere… Maybe there is still hope.

…He’s Goin’ out rapin’ it, rapin’ it, rapedy rape {at the Malwart} {he’s gonna rape it};

The Man tryiana tell him to put this thingy on {he’s gonna rape it};
He points right at the camera and, “Best get the fuck on!”

He likes his freedom is why I wrote this song;
He’s goin’ out raping it because he perceives his long.
The Man tries to tell him that he’s so totally wrong;

The Man doesn’t respect his insensivities {he’s gonna rape it};
So he’a goin’ out rapin’ it with his dick-maskless proclivities;
{see above, it gets pretty gross}
Rapin’ it, rapin’ it, rapety rape {raping it for the Lord}…

–Hey, look over there in produce, that guy is raping it!!

I don’t understand your comment?
The male condom is one effective tool in the prevention of the spread of HIV, along with testing the blood supply, anti-retroviral medications to pregnant and breastfeeding HIV-positive mothers, medications like PrEP and encouraging clean needle use.

Are you saying condoms don’t reduce the spread of HIV? Or are you saying there is something political about condoms or HIV?

I read it about 10 times and decided he is an AIDS denialist– of some sort– and that since what he was reading here was too lefty for him,his retort was to compare our science stuff to the (to him) ridiculous idea that condom use prevents AIDS. Kind of like projection.

No. It is God damned “don’t point me to that” because cultural pressure pressures and ‘they’ don’t like where this is going {because de don’t like have having been duped by $Man and $notman}. Incomprehesible, I know; but I try to relay the community.

@ syrupdishes

“Of course it immediately turns political – let’s all wear rubbers to protect us from HIV. Buh-bye.”

Move to Senegal. You’d be wearing rubber not because it protects from AIDS, but because it’s hype. Makes you feel upper class or upper middle class. Kind of like wearing a Philippe Patek watch made out of dinosaur feces…

You should try it.

It makes you popular with wealthy girls over there…

At least, you’d have a good reason to wear rubber.

As to myself, I’ll stick to washing mitts filled with hot noodles. Don’t need women. Nor men. Nor what-have-you.

I just don’t get these quacks. Why distinguish yourself in this way? It’s not like there isn’t enough work to go around…especially in the peds world. Is it ego? Seems like an odd way to stroke it.

The one or two genuinely-dangerous physicians Ive had the misfortune of working with (Even worse once, under) have all had one thing in common: glaring, wanton, unrepentant incompetence. Regardless of how they began their careers, they were no longer anything more than a license number on a pad or an eRx.

Worse? They damn-well knew it. They knew everyone else knew it. They did nothing to address it. One had just never bothered to do any learning after his intern year a million years ago or whatever. Another was trained poorly abroad and would double down on crazy when challenged, requiring some clever strategy to avoid patient harm when she was attending.

Maybe that’s what went on here? Maybe these guys were tired of no longer being relevant or even competent and chose this as their pièce de ré·sis·tance? I don’t know…I just don’t get it.

For many it seems to be something akin to NPD.

They look across the tracks and see quacks being feted like heros and decide they would like a piece of that action. They have always felt they were destined for big things, but find normal science and medicine too confining. In the conventional sphere you have to work hard and produce mountains of evidence to get noticed. On the other side of the tracks, no work and no evidence is necessary.

An easy life with a horde of adoring fans. All you have to do is say the right magic words. Even better, you get to stiff it to those who have ignored your genius and held you back all these years.

He definitely feels stiffed. From the initial Wiilamette Week March 2019 investigative article:

Years ago, Paul Thomas stopped socializing with other pediatricians. All doctors, really.

“I avoid them because they give you that ‘you dumbshit’ look,” he says. “They look down their nose at you like you’re the scum of the earth. You can only expose yourself to so much abuse. Like, who needs this?”

Instead of wondering why other doctors were looking at him as though he were the scum of the earth, notice how he assumes they’re the problem.

Agreed. Steven Barrett adds that often medical workers in less authoritative positions rebel to become more powerful by enlisting a coterie of admirers/ followers.

Amongst those I survey, I notice that grifters with NO medical/ scientific education/ training or spurious at best credentials, may have at one point believed that they would be rising stars in science or medicine BUT university admissions etc stopped them dead in their tracks. Thus, they were eliminated by the System early on and have been griping about it ever since. Two of the most well known insult people with degrees from “elitist” institutions – they say they couldn’t go because ONLY they were poor.
SRSLY if they were truly as brilliant and as great athletically as they claim, they would have no problem. Most universities have scholarships, work study, governmental support as well as financial aid to students who are otherwise acceptable. They just weren’t good enough to be admitted and thus need to blame the ‘Elite’ System.

Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan advised his followers against coronavirus vaccination in a speech Saturday, calling the breakthrough vaccine “toxic waste” that would harm the black community.

Farrakhan, 87, also sprinkled several anti-white pejoratives throughout his 70-minute speech, referring to white people as “crackers” and “devils.”

The vaccine color does look sort of.. off.

“Wine the color of shit… Interesting.”

daily caller? Do you have a legitimate reference instead of one that’s a haven for white supremacists and congenital liars?

@30:20 “…so I can’t say that the white man is the only devil.” {?}

@36:55 “…and Busta called him the ‘orange man’…he called sleepy joe…{good on him}

@38:30 “…the death plan… {?}

@42:51 “…now they gettin’ us ready for the vaccine.” {?}

@43:13 “…do you believe that Satan [the Man] is concerned about vaccinating you?…” {?}

@51:20 “…when has this devil ever offered you… They give you free shots of toxic waste.” {?}

@53:10 “… ‘well, if you don’t show your vaccinated, you can’t come to school’.. What a blessing! Tell the cracker, …” {??‍♂️}

It’s a fair cop; daily caller bad.

I am curious, why is getting measles, mumps and rubella titers a bad idea? Mumps titers come back non-protective half the time.

But why would protective titers not obviate the need for a second (or third) MMR vaccine?


The Immune Pediatrician
PfizerBioNTech 162b2 Recipient

Dr. Gordon asks “why is getting measles, mumps and rubella titers a bad idea? Mumps titers come back non-protective half the time.” This may be the problem with the mumps vax.

And… “But why would protective titers not obviate the need for a second (or third) MMR vaccine?” ‘Cuz there’s no money in that, Dr. Gordon! Why bother? Just give another MMR.” Ya know the mantra, safe and effective, safe and effective, safe and effective Anyway, MERCK needs the money to pay for their exorbitant attorney fees.

Good day and good health.

Have you ever given any real thought to how much your worldview is ruining your life and damaging your psyche?

Wrong, Natalie. I personally had the opposite experience.
My age group got the first measles vaccine, which has a tendency to wear off when you’re older. We are advised by the CDC to get the newer vaccine. When I brought this up at my doctor’s, they checked my measles antibodies level, found that it’s fine, and didn’t “just give me” another dose. They’re not going to until if and when my antibody level drops.

So, can you cite any case where a doctor just gave another MMR for the money? Or are you just delusionally asserting it?

Meanwhile in other parts of the world, which have sensible healthcare systems this Merkinanian obsession with what medics are paid for is pretty much irrelevant…

@ Murmur:

Oh, I know!
Funny though, no one complains much about what executives/ developers/ workers make at high tech firms or complains about what their phones/ internet service/ IT products/ computers / entertainment cost. There’s a reason why large cap growth mutual funds are heavily invested in companies like Amazon, Alphabet ( google), Microsoft, Facebook, Apple, ATT, Verizon, Neflix, Alibaba… they make lots of money.

I notice that you now deviate from your usual story. Now MMR vaccine is so good that you do not need a booster dose. Actually, there is money in titers, too.
There is lots of data about efficiency of mumps component. Just do Google Scholar search with “mumps vaccine efficiency”. Merck was sued because lawyers suspected that there is some hidden data around.
How bad the vaccine conspiracy is! Whistleblowers all around.

They cost about $100 plus cost of visit just to potentially bring them back for another visit vs just give them another MMR.

And AFAIK titers are not routinely covered by insurance whereas vaccines are.
Even if the patient is paying out of pocket an MMR vaccination given by a nurse or pharmacist generally is cheaper than an office visit/titer which may show the patient need the vaccine anyway.
So why get the titer when for less $$ you can just get the recommended 2nd dose and it is covered by insurance?
Dr. Gordon doesn’t seem to have a very good grasp of vaccination… perhaps because he’s given so few in his illustrious vaccine-averse career.

Fah on your bullshit “The Immune Pediatrician” when you’re a bastard quack who won’t protect his patients from vaccine preventable diseases. Your medical license should be next to get pulled you bloviating quack.

I agree.

I hope the parents of “The Immune Pediatrician” take note that this doctor is willing to immunize himself with an experimental vaccine when his health is on the line while he talks them out of protecting their children with vaccines that have been used safely and effectively for decades. It certainly reeks of somebody doesn’t believe his on BS and is only in it for the money.

Kelly on Facebook Gordon lists himself as a single “$” for how expensive he is, yet he charges 2500 for a housecall and 400+ for an office visit. But he’s not in it for the money charging way above what is usual and customary.

You’ll notice he doesn’t mention the blurb he wrote for Thomas’s book.

“An impressively researched guide, this important book is essential reading for parents. With clear and practical advice for shielding children from harmful toxins, it will compel us all to think differently about how to protect health.”—Jay Gordon, M.D., FAAP

Didn’t Thomas claim to have done a “study” involving his patient’s MMR titers? If he didn’t have a proper IRB approval for that then he was engaging in some deeply unethical behavior. Did those patients and their parents give informed consent?

He claimed it in a quick blurb in his Vaccine book that he’d done titers showing you could (insanely b/c it’s a 2 yr delay over the CDC schedule for the 1st MMR) wait until age 3 years of age to do one (and only one) MMR vaccine with the same protection as the 2 MMRs given at 12-15 months and 4-6 yrs of age on the CDC schedule. Almost certainly he didn’t give proper informed consent for study. He will claim he gave informed consent, but Thomas, for all his claiming he’s “Mr Informed Consent” (with the rest of us pediatricians being stupid cads who give false informed consent so we can maim our patients with teh ebil vaccinez) doesn’t get the first thing about it. His version of informed consent would be something like “I read some crap on google/ and measles isn’t that bad and the MMR vaccine causes autism so take my advice as informed consent that it’s ok to wait until 3 yrs no matter what those other dums*** doctors say”. Ultimate irony is Thomas is on the “Distinguished Advisory Board” of a “research ethics” group called “The Alliance for Human Research Protection” which proclaims itself all about informed consent. Hilarious because it’s packed with all the prominent anti-vaxxers (including Lyons-Weiler) .

Because a titre is an unnecessary medical procedure. You really should know this instead of pretending you are ignorant.

Plus it is an unnecessary procedure that includes sticking a kid with a freaking big needle to draw blood. There is no harm in getting a third MMR vaccine. If my youngest had been accepted to a Univ. of California school that was then experiencing a mumps outbreak, our family doctor would have happily given the kid a third MMR vaccine.

Though years later the grad school required proof of chicken pox exposure, so a titer was done on a full grown 24 year old adult, not a child. An adult who got chicken pox as a six month old baby a year before the varicella vaccine was available.

I got a varicella titer recently ($125 before insurance!) and was totally unsurprised when it came back positive. Like, I remember the chicken pox. But some people don’t build persistent antibodies, so you’ve got to check.

This kid did not remember because they were so young. They knew they had it because I asked permission to put their photo on a post on a now defunct blog over a decade ago. This kid is just graduated as rehab therapist looking for a job in a pandemic… they know the importance of vaccines and other preventive health measures.

The undergraduate university (Univ. of Washington, Seattle) required proof of MMR vaccine prior to class registration. The grad school required that and and others due to contact with children in clinic. As a more “elderly” student (by two years) this kid actually had chicken pox and needed a titer.

Yeah they refused to look at my pox scars on my shoulders and made me get a titer a while back, too…

Not looking forward to the possibility of shingles.

We get our second dose of the newer shingles vaccine tomorrow. I look forward to a weekend with a sore arm.

Again, anti-vaxxers know much more than professionals who work in medicine….
( Age of Autism; Business Insider)
Kim Rossi** discusses the harm Melinda Gates inflicts upon the world with vaccines and warns a nurse to not take advice from Gates who isn’t a doctor, nurse, etc.
The NYC nurse
, Sandra Lindsay, who was the first person in the US to be vaccinated ( outside of trials), is Black, originally from Jamaica and has worked in CCU for over 25 years. She wants to stop the pandemic and allay the fears of minorities. I doubt that Ms Gates is the only vaccine advocate she is aware of but both of their sources are SBM and she’s dealt with Covid first hand since the start.

** who isn’t a doctor, nurse, etc, is white. and rather uneducated in most areas except anti-vax talking points Like RFK jr, AoA often targets minorities

Good grief, could Kim Rossi be any more condescending if she tried?
Why is she assuming that Nurse Lindsay listened to Melinda Gates and not, say, the CDC, Dr Fauci, or the doctors and nurses in her own hospital system? You know, people who actually know what they are talking about.


@ JustaTech:

It’s very common at the places I survey:
— know-it-all anti-vax mothers criticising SBM, research in general, experts. Another one is Katie Wright’s twitter where she postulates immunology. neurology ( Alzheimer’s,amd MS are;just like autism!) the microbiome’s effect etc. as she dxs her son ( a stroke. encephalitis) .
— spuriously educated woo-meisters ( PRN) who teach critical thinking skills and why to beware of bad science/ research, sceptics
— RFK jr ” the Defender” page where he discusses pharma malfeasance etc.
— Anything Del says!

/ sarcasm all of these well-credentialed experts instruct their enraptured audiences to learn the Truth and avoid scoundrels like Drs Fauci, Hotez, Orac, etc.

it’s hard to report what they say without sarcasm tags or quotes because it is certainly a topsy turvy world ,

The irony of your opening comment in a thread about a medical professional questioning the vaccine schedule is fairly mind-blowing. ?
What about the thousands of medical professionals who choose not to vaccinate their own children once they have done more research than the mini- module of vaccine ‘training’ in med school?

As far as I know, anti-vaccine doctors are a very small percentage. Many of whom have colorful profiles.

On this, the simple reality is that every profession has a fringe. There is a reason most doctors are solidly pro-vaccine.

Funny how we’ve never gotten an answer from “The Immune Pediatrician”* a.k.a. Jay Gordon on whether he’s gotten recommended vaccines like those for influenza and pertussis, to protect vulnerable pediatric patients, including those he sees in the hospital.

*Of course Jay, assuming he’s telling the truth about being in a Covid vaccine trial, shouldn’t know if he was in the placebo or active vaccine group and should not consider himself immune to SARS-CoV-2.
**Jay’s website recommends administration of colloidal silver as a home treatment for colds to boost immunity (shades of Paul Thomas’ poor tetanus patient). It’d be nice if Jay removed this and lots of other quacky advice from his site. I guess we (or more likely, his patients) will turn blue before that happens.

Stay safe and under the medical board radar, Jay.

Does anyone have any input on this?: I’m watching this Peter Bright interview about the two differing vaccines; Moderna and BioNtech. And they are discussing lack of training on handling, tracking, and administering them.

Being that they are the same technology, should it matter that they might become mix and match between the first and second dose?? {asking for a friend}

If I remember correctly, ACIP last weekend said that if someone had a mix they don’t need to go back and complete their original theory, which suggests that a mix is not horrible. I hope I’m not confusing – it was a long meeting and it was weekend with kids.

I was told by Dr. Offit and other doctor friends that administering isn’t really different from other intermascular vaccines. I asked, because I was wondering about lack of training, too.

Tnx, Dorit Reiss

As I have thin musculature from sitting on by butt for the last five years; It is going into the bone. the BONE.

But those videos yesterday of clapping shot-getting looked like they were aiming to shoot squirrel. A former hobby of mine; and I missed. Alot.

My employer and I have agreed that we are getting it but that seems A Quiet Summer as it looks like it won’t be around here until at the earliest maybe August.

In a recent episode the TWiV panel was opining that the Pfizer and Moderna products would probably interchangeable for the second dose since both use mRNA for the spike protein. I would expect there might be slight differences in how they have tweaked the mRNA to get the desired physical structure for the protein, but that probably won’t make any appreciable difference.
I would expect that either the Oxford/AstraZeneca or Sputnik V vaccines would also be effective as second-dose boosters. They are both viral vector types that use DNA for the spike, but the DNA would be transcribed to mRNA for the same protein.
Since the spike is sort of the most “conspicuous” of the structural proteins, it wouldn’t surprise me if any of the vaccines were reasonably effective for the boost dose.

O.k. I was shellacked. That’s not ‘squirrel hunting’ it is Frog Giggin’


Since some hypothesised that the reason that a half-dose of the Oxford/AstraZeneca was more effective (possibly an artifact) was because the full dose might train the body to attack the adenovirus vector instead of the payload, I think you are right about that second dose not mattering.

Moreover, the plan seems to be to withold stock of second doses so the whole question might be moot anyways {but who always follows protocol?}. Perhaps, if mix and match works without deleterious effect, then the better strategy may be just to give whatever is available — aftermarket car parts only sometimes causes problems and always that the thing doesn’t fit or it won’t run; I’ve never seen a car actually blow up using ValueCraft.

Here’s the instructions, Tim. Thaw, then dilute with 1.8 ml 0.9% saline, gently mix without shaking and administer IM immediately. Not any more complicated that other vaccines with diluents. The big thing is preserving the cold chain and then making sure you follow the time allowances for use after thawing.

I’ll have one mRNA-1273 (Moderna); Twirled, not shaken.

Why does the Pfizer PDF bug me by “COVID-19 vaccine” and not SARS-CoV-2?

The CVS person is going to shake it. Aren’t they?

Off topic, but still about anti-vaxxers. I have stumbled on the fact that RFK Jr’s site has a comment board. Moderated by one John Stone.

Just illustrates the incestuous nature of the anti-vax universe.

…which means any of us posting there will be blocked just like at Age of Autism. Ironic when they cry “CENSORSHIP” by us at the drop of a hat.

Horrifying news about the Pfizer vaccine. From the newswires:

“At Loretto Hospital in Chicago, five health-care workers received the city’s first vaccines on Tuesday with Mayor Lori Lightfoot and other officials watching nearby. “What we just witnessed is history in the making,” Ms. Lightfoot said afterward at a press briefing. “I got goosebumps watching this happen.”

So not only does the vaccine produce immediate, serious side effects (goosebumps), they’re trans-species side effects! And they happen immediately, to people who just happened to be in the same room as vaccine recipients!!

Did Pfizer deliberately put goose mRNA sequences in its vaccine, knowing they’d become airborne and infect human genomes?

It’s got to be part of Bill Gates’ depopulation program.

You do know that some fuckwit will be claiming something pretty much like that, don’t you?

You could probably fool some people by telling them the vaccine induces bystander piloerection which could counter the erectile dysfunction COVID-19 can cause. Utter nonsense of course…

And they happen immediately, to people who just happened to be in the same room as vaccine recipients!!

I had something of the opposite experience today when talking to a hospice nurse to sign some paperwork. While waiting for her signature tablet thing to reboot, vaccines not unsurprisingly came up.

She’s going to wait and see on SARS-CoV-2, naturally, but my eyes nearly wrenched themselves out of my head when she mentioned that she had only had a flu vaccine once, which allowed her to determine that she was allergic to eggs. At age 46. The IgE kind of laid back for some 36 hours before being noticed, or something.

It’s good that she’s switched to verifying that people are comatose and have a DNR.

Just off to get the pfizer vaccine. Ill watch out fir those pesky goosebumps.

And they happen immediately, to people who just happened to be in the same room

It’s like, well, it’s like quantum, innit?

If I can hand-wave my way to ΔE Δt ≥ ℏ, that could create an awful mess.

Did Pfizer deliberately put goose mRNA sequences in its vaccine, knowing they’d become airborne and infect human genomes?

Dangerous One, don’t know about the goose in their mRNA vaccine, but what did they put in it causing those three anaphylaxis reactions in those three healthcare workers in England and the latest occurring in Alaska?

The reactions were not anaphylactic reactions. They were severe allergic reactions. There is a difference.

The one in AK sure sounded anaphylactic…they had to repeatedly dose her with Epi, she got IV antihistamines, and she went to the unit overnight. I wasn’t there and I don’t have first-hand knowledge, just what I read, but that’s what they’re saying…

The reactions were not anaphylactic reactions. They were severe allergic reactions. There is a difference.

Whatever, Tbruce! Must say though that I find it interesting that RFKjr warned about the danger of PEG in the vaccine and just yesterday I came across an article with Offit agreeing that was likely the substance causing the allergic reactions.

I also find a lot of other things interesting about these reactions. For instance, why with the four cases did they only happen with healthcare workers? By chance, there should have also been reactions, and more, in the larger population of non-healthcare workers that were vaccinated. How come we are not hearing about such cases? Is it a matter that it’s so much easier to dismiss reactions in the elderly and frail as ‘natural’ and not caused by the vaccine? Also, how will it bode for the second dose if we are already seeing these reactions from the first dose. Reading Pfizer’s peer reviewed study, it seems that more severe reactions occurred after the second dose.

Guys, don’t get me wrong; as an antivaxxer, it’s not like I am sitting here wringing my hands in glee about these reactions. It’s just that I find them curious.

A. The vaccine is just being rolled out and the first target audience is healthcare workers. In other words, for reactions outside the trial, healthcare workers are all you’ve got.

B. RFK jr. imagines a lot of things wrong about vaccines. Without data. Maybe once in a blue moon he hits right, but that’s certainly not because of knowledge, or makes the rest of his almost always wrong statements about vaccines more credible.

Your leaders mislead you.

@ Dorit Reiss:

” Your leaders mislead you”

I notice how much scoffers’ points mimic those I hear or read at the places I survey. If we call them ‘poor sources’, we are criticised because they automatically dismiss more standard sources: governmental bodies, universities, professional societies,.

So how do we react to this game?
I’ve ventured the following:
Does their belief ( e.g. ‘vaccines cause autism’) receive serious treatment by *any accredited university?” Show me the course numbers involved
Does any standard media outlet support the idea? Name them
Is their line of inquiry accepted anywhere outside of highly suspect websites?

The only answer they can supply is that *all of these sources are compromised, lying, paid off”
to which I would respond:
“The entire world is corrupt and wrong but you, struck-off doctors, supplement salesmen, extreme libertarian and contrarian muck rakers are correct?” Not likely.

Alt med/ anti-vax sources lie to everyone including their supporters/ customers..

I completely agree, Denice.

And further, we know that their leader are paid. Mr. Bigtree receives a six figure salary, as do several other ICAN members, and Mr. Kennedy receives one, too.

ICAN brings in over 3 million dollar, and pays officials six figures salaries.

If they are worried about someone being paid off, maybe they should look to their leaders.

The vaccine is just being rolled out and the first target audience is healthcare workers. In other words, for reactions outside the trial, healthcare workers are all you’ve got.

C’mon, Dorit! That’s not true. The vaccines is being rolled out not just for healthcare worker, but also for those most at risk, including the elderly. For the 148,000 people already vaccinated in the UK, we would expect healthcare workers to be an insignificant subset of this population; in a post below, I am pegging it at around 1600. Yet, we have already seen 3 severe reactions and that’s just after the first dose!

Further, I have to note that about a decade or so ago, I asked Jake Crosby similar questions about why the whole world was wrong and Andy et al weren’t- how likely was it that all of these experts/ professionals around the globe were all lying and ONE researcher- who made money off of his work- wasn’t? What’s more likely?
I asked him if he thought that his on-line activity might adversely affect his employability in health science? He didn’t agree. ( I think he also called me a Nazi but I’m not sure exactly where or why)
Well, his career hasn’t exactly taken off – he had a blog, he wrote for Epoch Times and might have been paid by the Dwoskin Foundation for ‘research’ and by Trump for herding voters but no epidemiology related jobs despite his MPH. His doctorate didn’t materialise either. I wonder why..

@ Garnetstar – “One dose of MMR vaccine is 93% effective against measles, 78% effective against mumps, and 97% effective against rubella.

Two doses of MMR vaccine are 97% effective against measles and 88% effective against mumps.”

One dose is good for MOST of the population, however, a second dose is recommended which really doesn’t bring up the numbers much. Excluding the uncertainty about the efficacy of the mumps vaccine which MERCK has been litigating for years now. Antitrust to boot, MMR made by MERCK is the only option we have in the U.S.

So how important is that second dose? MERCK thinks it is important and yes makes them double $$$. For perspective, however, I guess it is way more effective than the annual flu vaccine.

Good day.

Wrong. As usual. CDC and USPSTF think it’s important. Especially if you’re higher risk. These companies make a pittance on vaccines compared to their next rockstar RA/Cancer/Cosmetic drug.

Those look like mighty good numbers to me. I’d be really happy to go from 93% effective to 97% effective against such a horrible illness as measles. I wanted that newer measles vaccine, but apparently my insurance wouldn’t pay for it if my antibodies were still high. As for going from 78% to 88% effective against mumps? That’s awesome, bring it on. My father got mumps when he was thirty, and almost went deaf from it. After a lot of suffering (worse than in children), he recovered. But, losing all hearing was definitely on the cards.

“Really doesn’t bring up the numbers much” doesn’t wash when we’re talking hundreds of millions or billions of people.

You still think that Merck vaccine is so good that no second dose is needed. However CDC disagrees. Perhaps you should start an ad blitz

Speaking of vaccine reactions, what about that Texas woman who developed a horrible oozing foot sore after taking part in the Pfizer Covid-19 vaccine trial? Her story went viral, antivaxers lapped it up…and then it turned out she didn’t get the active vaccine, but instead received the saline placebo.

Anti-vaxers are not happy with her now.

As for anaphylactic reactions, might want to check on what percentage of recipients get them and what pre-existing conditions they have (at least two of the U.K. Covid-19 vaccine recipients who were treated for such reactions already had a marked allergy history obliging them to carry epi-pens).

As for anaphylactic reactions, might want to check on what percentage of recipients get them and what pre-existing conditions they have (at least two of the U.K.

Dangerous One, in my last post not yet cleared by Orac –yes, on this blog I am perhaps the most persecuted antivaxxer– I am indeed thinking about percentages. So far in England, about 148,000 people were vaccinated and we’ve seen three severe reactions in healthcare workers. Throw in another one coming out of Alaska. So we likely have about 4 reactions out of a population of 160,000. Doesn’t sound that bad, you say?! But the reactions were all in healthcare workers and we don’t know about other reactions in the general senior citizens population that went unreported.

So, let’s consider of the 160,000 population and how many of them would’ve been healthcare workers. I checked stats and saw that in the US and UK it’s generally 10 healthcare workers for every 1,000 people. So, with likely 1600 healthcare workers vaccinated, we got four severe reactions — and after just the first dose! I would say that’s truly an horrible number!

it’s generally 10 healthcare workers for every 1,000 people

Applying this population average completely ignores the fact that in the UK the vaccine is being administered to elderly (80+ years) hospital outpatients and elderly people leaving hospital first, then healthcare workers. Your 1600 is probably more like 16,000, or even higher. Maybe you should go look for accurate figures before leaping to self-serving conclusions which will only embarrass you and undermine your argument.

Dangerous One, in my last post not yet cleared by Orac –yes, on this blog I am perhaps the most persecuted antivaxxer

Oh, look what crawled out of the shit pond. “Persecuted”? “An horrible”? Fuck off, you pathetic sack of festering smarm.

Let’s consider whether having an anaphalactic reaction in a setting where they’ve made you stay long enough after the shot so that they can see it if you react badly, then getting instantly treated with epinephrine and all the rest, and you are fine and released soon (the AK worker is out of hospital and doing fine) is better or worse than helping the US achieve the 400,000th death, or suffering all your life from long COVID, or sustaining heart and lung damage that are found in a large percentage of people who were asymptomatic? Or being in the hospital for three months and losing part of your leg to blood clots (happened to the chief of security at the White House).

I know which I’d choose.

That’s ganjatarian foot rot. It’s not caused by vaccines that much; it’s usually from injecting dirty marihuanas.

Dr. Naylor Hoof ‘n Heel should fix it.

They wouldn’t give me the vaccine this afternoon due to my previous allergies! Gutted.

Those cold-boxes fall off the back of the truck all the time. I’ve got free Benadryl (hint, hint).

”we don’t know about other reactions in the general senior citizens population that went unreported.”

With news media like Fox eager to jump on any reported Covid-19 vaccine reaction*, your dark fears of coverup appear ludicrous.

*oddly, Fox et al are remarkably silent when it comes to hyping individual cases of serious heart problems or other non-fatal disease resulting from Covid-19.

C’mon, Dangerous One! The vaccine was given to healthcare workers and senior citizens. We would expect a lot more senior citizens would have received the vaccine. Four serious reactions were reported for healthcare workers but none for the senior citizens. Dangerous One, is it conspiracy theory to suspect something isn’t quite right about such an outcome or logic?

“Is it conspiracy theory to suspect something isn’t quite right about such an outcome or logic?”


It’s well established that allergies in general have been rising in younger generations, and were not as common in people who are now old. A much smaller percentage of people in older generations were severely allergic enough to have anaphylactic reactions to, say, foods. But now a lot higher percentage of people need epipens to prevent that. For example, when I was young allergy to peanuts was almost unknown. It’s now much more common in children.

Besides, what are you alleging? Somehow the health workers were slipped bad doses by evil conspirators, but the seniors weren’t? That this is a plot against healthcare workers? What, exactly?

Perhaps the percentage of seniors who are prone to bad outcomes from allergies is lower because the seniors who had the highest sensitivities are more likely to be dead by now?

Besides, what are you alleging?

Nothing, Garnetstar. Just, wouldn’t you agree that if 89 year-old gramps keel over 30 minds after the Pfizer vaccine, It might be a tad hard to agree whether the vaccine did him in or ‘old age’?

I don’t respond to trolls but just this once ..
Does Offitt say that vaccines cause autism? He says that an ingredient may cause an allergic rx, Many things do that, SBM..
You follow anti-vax leaders about vaccines causing autism and other horrendous reactions ( like paralysis, brain damage, death) that are not supported by reasonable scientific studies amongst these leaders are:
Wakefield, Kennedy, Bigtree, Adams, Null, Tenpenny, Mercola, Cook, AoA writers etc.
In addition. you probably pick up other contrarianism that they offer along the way/

I ask: Find me a university that offers courses in how vaccines cause autism. Mail order degree mills/ personal research blogs don’t count. REAL universities.

Does Offit say that vaccine cause autism?

I keep telling you guys that I am not as confident as I seem. Sometimes I really have doubts. Sometimes I am thinking maybe you guys are indeed as stupid as you seem and are practicing what you preaching, taking more than your share of vaccines and which is causing some serious cognitive impairments!

Denice, where was I discussing the VCA issue?! Yeah – at times such discussions can be ‘fun’, but upon this return did I raise the matter? I was simply discussing the serious vaccine reactions caused by Pfizer’s vaccine. I was discussing how RFKjr and Offit both agree that Peg was the culprit! What are you missing, Denice?!


Stopped clocks are correct twice a day.
Dr Offit correctly recognises that ingredients in vaccines can cause allergic reactions …
RFK jr uses a fact like this as part of his campaign against vaccines whilst he spreads other misinformation. about vaccines. Read his site. Common method in alt med : say something reasonable and then continue with BS..
He claims he is for safe vaccines. He is anti-vax and so are you: you have a long history at RI, regular readers know your perspective.

Bother someone else, I’m done with you.

Sanctioned antivax physician update:

Thomas Cowan, on probation in California and not allowed to treat cancer patients, is now according to the CA medical board “delinquent” (didn’t pay his license renewal fee) and so they’ve shut him down entirely – no pay, no practice.

Still, there’s his literary career. Cowan has written books claiming that vaccines cause autoimmune disease, that “the heart is not a pump”, that cancer is caused by a derangement in the intracellular structure of water and most recently espousing germ theory denial (viruses don’t cause disease, doncha know).

California must lead the nation in loony antivax docs.

“the heart is not a pump”
Or we could look at “On the Motion of the Heart and Blood in Animals” by William Harvey, published (in Latin) in … 1628.

Oh, thanks for the laugh!

I would allow my child to recieve tetanus immune globulin C, if they sustained a laceration on a farm. If it was a puncture wound sustained on a farm; I might even be okay with allowing the tetanus vaccine.

Unfortunately; it’s not available anymore. There is no tetanus only vaccine available in the US. They give the DTaP instead. If the tetanus only vaccine were available, there would be higher uptake during emergency/urgent care treatment. YOU should understand that the lack of a tetanus only vaccine is an example of the perfect being an enemy of the good.

If the tetanus only vaccine were available, there would be higher uptake during emergency/urgent care treatment.

You don’t say. By how much?

@ Narad,

I don’t know. I just do know that 1. The combined vaccine is a detterant to people who know it is combined & 2. That people are getting the combined vax, thinking they are getting a ‘tetanus shot’, having adverse reactions, reporting the reaction as a ‘tetanus shot reaction’, finding out after submitting a report that they got a combined vaccine & then developing a mistrust of providers who advocate for a ‘particular vaccine’ because they might get more than they consented to.

It’s driving down confidence in vaccines & those who administer them.

Here at SAS* Labs we are in the final stages of development for a new mu-metal. The material is specially formulated and shaped to shield SBM web sites from the magnetic fields associated with crank magnetism. Although the shielding cannot be made perfect due to the frequency range of crank eruptions it should in most cases prevent the clumping together of cranks in comment threads of SBM articles on sites enclosed in one of our mu-shields. Crank magnetism is thus defeated in a majority of cases.

Unfortunately, although it shields against medical cranks, it occasionally attracts physics cranks. We’re working on it. We also recommend the extended warranty.

Short Alphabetic Sequence Labs

Define “bust.” I’ve accidentally imploded a 17 or 19 inch tube during a typical dorm room mishap. Amazing there was only one minor injury.

Ouch**. Na, I ‘busted’ mine the right way by snapping the rear nipple (incidentally, they make great vaccume sources for small volumes in case one doesn’t have a pump — just put vaccume line over the nipple first).

I wanted the shadow mask anyways because the old camp-fire* one got a hole in it for testing under a carburetor to see if “100% vaporization” really did get high mileage — a friend’s old truck ran great and mileage up by ~30-50% (I seem to recall) but the mask would ice over at the slightest humidity.

A friend worked at a certain company and we kind of had this arrangement where he would pilfer the trash for the deemed defective monitors (and they had some crazy high resolution monitors) and dump them on me for mix and matching back together for resale (don’t tell anyone). Ug. The company would crack the boards before throwing them out and these were three layer boards. Needless to say, I mostly ended up with a large collection of very fancy CRTs. I kept the most stable working 21″ unit for myself.

Around ten of these were stored under my parents’ crawlspace and they were cleaning out for a move in about six months. I drive up there to deal with them…and they’re gone. No call, nothing. They even threw out my good one they were using — quality flatscreens were just becoming affordable.

You plop it over the fire and it goes smokeless and glows a nice red, burning off smoke and fumes; great radiant heat.

**My employer had an electronics repair shop many years ago and had a collection of old tubes (without the integral implosion protection). Some quite round and quite large and quite heavy. Back in high school, I was working for him part time. When it came time to handle those tubes, I had to dress up in several coats, welder’s gloves, scarves, helment, goggles, the works. They were all destroyed in a tornado.

@ rs

Have you tried coupling this mu-metal with a perfectly frictionless spherical cow? That may take care of the physic cranks side-effect.
Or amplify it. You never know until you turn it on. Or tip over the cow.

No, we haven’t tried that. We are stuck on how you could tip over a spherical cow, frictionless or otherwise.

However we are trialing an experimental process to coat the shield with spike proteins we’ve harvested from dog whistles in a bid to enhance web site immunity.

“f it was a puncture wound sustained on a farm; I might even be okay with allowing the tetanus vaccine.”

You might be OK with preventing a horribly painful and potentially life-threatening case of tetanus like the one that nearly killed Thomas’ patient?

That’s noble of you, to consider sacrificing your principles like that.

@ DB,

I would be okay with a tetanus vaccine, especially for a puncture wound but it’s not available in the US. I said “might” because that would depend on the recommendation of my child’s Pediatrician & Immunologist, since it is against medical advice that he be vaccinated.

The Tetanus only vaccine needs to be an option.

“The Tetanus only vaccine needs to be an option.”

I might could get on board with that.

That being said, your left hand looks really, really bigly creepy and the right one looks like a rabbit giving me a blow job in that new profile pic.

I’m intrigued. I don’t get out much as a {not unlike Lovecraftian but more ‘eyeballs in teeth’ kinda beast that drives one insane to behold for which I can’t remember the term} meme, but I think I can do better.

@ Tim

not unlike Lovecraftian but more ‘eyeballs in teeth’ kinda beast

I suspect Sir is a connaisseur.

I may already have promoted it, but you may like the webcomic “the Unspeakable Vault of Doom”.
It’s a compatriot drawing it, so there is the occasional French News-related reference, but it’s nonetheless in English. Humor a bit on the gore side, of course.

The “on a farm” bit was all too common at MDC, as though C, tetani spores aren’t ubiquitous in the environment. I’ve lost count of how many tetanus boosters I’ve had — cat shelter, actually stepping on a rusty nail (I know, the rusty part is irrelevant), etc. If it includes aP, so much the better.

By the way, this statement

“There is no tetanus only vaccine available in the US. They give the DTaP instead.”

is erroneous.

Tetanus boosters are may be given as DTaP, DT or Td depending on factors including type of wound, age and immunization status. Shots include a diphtheria component, not because of Evil Pharma’s desire to make money but due to waning immunity over time to both tetanus and diphtheria toxoids. It’s generally recommended to give boosters for both every 10 years.

Another great PR effort to convince the public to get a Covid vaccine (insert sarcasm)! Tennessee nurse faints shortly after getting one.

Again, my question stands: Why are we hearing and seeing these adverse reactions from the likely less than 10% sample of healthcare workers that are vaccinated but absolutely none in the other 90%+ of seniors that are vaccinated?!

Greg, look up “vasovagal syncope”, learn how frequently it occurs as a non-specific reaction after getting an injection of any kind (or in response to other minor physiologic stresses), then hide your head in embarrassment for having been caught out as such an obvious antivax maroon.

FWIW, back in college days I fainted after waiting in line for an extended period to get a blood test. (It was a military physical in a warm building in winter in northern Michigan.) And I hadn’t even given blood yet!

Vasovagal Syndrome? BS, Dangerous One! Yes, I am hearing that new PR spin that she fainted because it’s normal for her to do so after feeling pain. Of course, she did not faint immediately after being jabbed — but 30mins later! Right!

Listen, Dangerous One, my biggest beef is not that I feel the vaccine is dangerous; yes, with how it was rushed to market, I do feel it will ultimately prove to be a dangerous product. An even bigger concern is more dealing with transparency. It’s the foremost problem I have with you drug pushers.

Be fully transparent about vaccine risks and stop lying. For instance, tell the public that you suspect the Covid vaccine might actually kill x amount of them but Covid will actually kill x plus more. After that, leave it up to them to decide whether they want to take the risks.

FWIW I tend to have a fairly big reaction when I cut my fingertips. Slashed one with a knife chopping veg, during my Uni days and went to the flat below for a plaster. Woke up on the bed. Usually I just need to sit down.

On the other hand, the motorbike accident I had, that left me with my femur sticking out through the leathers, was fine. Just needed a bit of gas as they pulled it straight.

From the Cleveland Clinic:

“Situational syncope is a type of vasovagal syncope. It happens only during certain situations that affect the nervous system and lead to syncope. Some of these situations are:

Intense emotional stress

So let’s see: you’re having some arm pain from a shot, followed by the anxiety/stress of going in front of the media. Those factors alone could easily cause a fainting spell.

Or an alternate explanation: gnomes in the Pfizer lab added fast-acting neurotoxins to the vaccine, which cause adults to faint and kids to become autistic before they leave the doctor’s office.

Take your pick.

*fainting has been described as a not uncommon aftermath of HPV vaccination. Antivaxers have attempted to inflate this into a ghastly neurologic syndrome, because idiotic scaremongering is a typical consequence of being antivax.

Dangerous One, perhaps I am starting to come around to seeing your point about vasovagal syncope. I am on the verge of fainting from your reduculously painful, stupid argument that a nurse of all people would faint from the pain of a simple injection and it would occur not when she received the shot — but 17 minutes after!

If I were to give out my address, how many here at RI would agree to come to my aid in case I need resuscitation? Narad?! Indeed I keep saying to participate on this blog you need to maintain a fair about of suspension of disbelief just to keep your sanity.

From the Miami Herald re the Tennessee nurse who fainted after getting the Covid-19 vaccine:

“In a video posted by WTVC, CHI Memorial nurse manager Tiffany Dover was being interviewed by members of the media after receiving her shot when she appeared to become lightheaded. A doctor is then seen catching her as she falls to the ground.

When she recovered, Dover said the reaction is not uncommon for her.

“I have a history of having an over-reactive vagal response, and so with that if I have pain from anything—hangnail or if I stub my toe — I can just pass out,” Dover told WRCB.

What does the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention say about passing out after getting vaccinated?

Fainting can occur after many types of vaccinations, the CDC said. Doctors believe the reaction occurs because of the vaccination process — not what is in the vaccines.

About 3% of men and 3.5% of women have reported they have fainted at least once during their lifetime, the federal health agency said. Fainting usually does not have lasting effects.

Dr. Jesse Tucker at CHI Memorial told WTVC Dover’s reaction to getting the vaccination “can happen very frequently.” He reiterated it is not because of the vaccine itself.

Fainting can also occur when individuals are nervous about getting a shot, according to Johns Hopkins Medicine.

“Our bodies can react in ways that seem unconnected to what we’re thinking. It’s possible for someone to feel nervous without realizing it,” the hospital said. “When we’re scared or upset, we can begin to hyperventilate. This kind of fast, shallow breathing lowers the amount of carbon dioxide in our bodies, and that can lead to fainting.”

If a patient begins to feel symptoms of fainting, medical providers are encouraged to have the patient sit or lie down, loosen tight clothing to help breathing and “apply cool, damp cloths to the patient’s face and neck,” according to the Immunization Action Coalition.

Medical providers offering reassurance about the vaccination process — as well as giving patients beverages and snacks — has been shown to prevent some fainting, the CDC said.

“Breathe slowly and deeply before the shot and think of something relaxing,” Johns Hopkins recommends. “Or distract yourself. Bring a friend along or play a game that requires intense concentration.”

The CDC added that individuals who pass out after receiving a vaccination often recover in a few minutes.

Dover was among the first health care workers at the Chattanooga hospital to receive the vaccine, WRCB reported. The other doctors and nurses were vaccinated without incident.”

Must be a coverup to please our Pharma Overlords, right Greg? Betcha Dover got a big payoff from Pfizer to invent a history of fainting.

We”ll learn the truth when she develops generalized goose bumps and a cow grows out of her forehead.

@ Tim,

Because I took the picture a few weeks ago on my 53rd birthday. My left hand is showing 5 fingers & my right hand is holding up 3 fingers. I do have long fingers; I’m 5’11”. I would look kinda weird with short, stubby ones.

I do have long fingers; I’m 5’11”.

Christ, if I weren’t due at a funeral home, this gem could be marginally amusing.

These are very rude and dismissive comments you seem happy to allow that have nothing to do with the debate. Just school yard bullies.

VinGupta on Meet the Press

As one of the first vaccinated people in New Haven is planning on traveling after the second dose,

“Just because you get vaccinated after the second dose does not mean you should be traveling. … You could still get infected and pass it along to others.”

So if I get the “shot(s)”, ” I can still get infected and pass it along to others.” logic would dictate, that if I still can’t travel, I still could get Covid and I still can transmit Covid, I still have to wear the face mask, so if nothing is going to change why get the shot.

The #1 reason to get vaccinated is to protect you from getting the disease. Both the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are about 95% effective at doing that. And they also appear to be very good at protecting you from getting a severe case of Covid-19. None of the Moderna subjects and only one of the Pfizer subjects got severe Covid-19. So you are much less likely to wind up in the ICU, suffer long-term effects like fatigue and brain fog, and less likely to die from the disease.

Whether or how much the vaccine will protect you from getting infected with the virus and spreading it to others is still unknown. Virologists have been speculating about this for months, even before the vaccines started trials. We probably won’t see any effect of this sort until a lot more people get vaccinated. New York had more new cases yesterday than the number of people vaccinated.

But there is some data from the Moderna trial suggesting it may reduce transmission.

A vaccine that prevents illness might still allow people to become infected and harbor the virus in their noses long enough to transmit it.

New data from Moderna suggest that its vaccine may reduce transmission. Researchers found that people who had one shot were less likely than those in the placebo group to have symptom-free infections in their noses — and therefore less likely to be contagious.

Since a mask helps protect me against flu as well as Covid-19, I plan to keep wearing one for quite a while and maybe next winter as well. Even though I am over 65, there are 115 million people ahead of me to get one of these vaccines. So it’s a moot point until then.

Whether or how much the vaccine will protect you from getting infected with the virus and spreading it to others is still unknown.

And, why exactly is that still an ‘unknown’?

If you reflect back on Modena’s early Stage 1 trial, it was designed to assess whether the mRNA vaccine would produce neutralizing antibodies, antibodies that could kill the virus and prevent transmission. In that trial, it was stated that such antibodies were detected in 8 of the 45 trial participants that they tested, yet results weren’t given for the other 37; in fact, we still don’t know their results.

Moving on to Stage 2/3, the protocol was changed to not studying for neutralizing antibodies but consideration of whether the vaccine would prevent symptoms. Obviously, if it’s still unknown whether the vaccine will prevent infection, it’s deliberate. ‘Deliberate’ in that researchers have all reasons to suspect that it won’t.

I am also taken by this lucid argument from Prof Frallzer from Queensland University about the challenge of producing a Covid vaccine that can prevent infection.

He said the challenge is that coronaviruses have historically been hard to make safe vaccines for, partly because the virus infects the upper respiratory tract, which our immune system isn’t great at protecting

Symptoms of a disease are actually interesting. Like, being transferred to ICU. This is why clinical trials has these as endpoints. One knows transmission rate only after many people are vaccinated.
Clinical data shows COVID vaccines protect against a respiratory tract virus (95 %). This is more important than a random citation

Because you will start cranking out your very own, natural, homegrown antibodies that will neutralize virus particles. Can’t get more “natural” than that. You don’t even need Regeneron!! You’ll get better, longer-lasting antibodies.

Not that anyone on this blog could even get access to Regeneron or afford it.

vasovagal syncope :- must be related to white coat syndrome. My brother used to get it bad, he even had trouble visiting people in hospital, risk of fainting even. I can feel it in myself, although I like to think it’s under control.
Once at a blood donation, the girl asked me if I was nervous, and I boldly said no! She then pumped up the cuff looked at the dial, and said emphatically: you are nervous!

Riddle me this, RI regulars: So far with Pfizer vaccine rollout in the UK and US we have heard about 4 cases of people suffering severe allergic reactions that they needed life-support interventions, and we have seen one case of a nurse passing out on live TV after receiving the vaccine; how many of such cases had they occurred in Pfizer’s 2/3 trial would’ve been caught? What if I were to tell you, zilch, nada, NONE!….

Here is a snippet from the Method section of their study:

The primary end points of this trial were solicited, specific local or systemic adverse events and use of antipyretic or pain medication within 7 days after the receipt of each dose of vaccine or placebo, as prompted by and recorded in an electronic diary in a subset of participants (the reactogenicity subset), and unsolicited adverse events (those reported by the participants without prompts from the electronic diary) through 1 month after the second dose and unsolicited serious adverse events through 6 months after the second dose.

Clearly none of those reactions would’ve have been recorded as ‘systemic’ because it appears systemic reactions were solicited ones, likely involving a checklist of common reactions without fainting and severe allergic reactions included. The reactions also wouldn’t have been recorded as adverse ones because they occurred and resolved within days after the first dose, and adverse reactions were to be recorded after the second dose given 21 days after the first.

So absolutely none of these latest adverse reactions would’ve been picked up by that trial. Unbelievable, you say?! Yes — and I would add, only in provaxx land!

Your reading comprehension is terrible. Your quote also includes ‘unsolicited adverse events’ as a primary end point of the trial. Meaning the participant could report anything, whether it was included in the diary or not.

Your reading comprehension is terrible. Your quote also includes ‘unsolicited adverse events’ as a primary end point of the trial. Meaning the participant could report anything, whether it was included in the diary or not.

C’mon, Numb! None of the 5 cases of severe allergic reactions that required life-saving interventions and the one case of fainting that we have witnessed so far would’ve registered as safety issues in the trial. They would not have counted as systemic reactions measured 7 days after each dose of the vaccine, because fainting and life threatening allergic reactions were not included in the checklist of solicited systemic reactions. They also wouldn’t have counted as adverse reactions because they resolved within days after the first injection, and adverse reactions were only measured after the second dose.

Numb, the life-threatening allergic reactions and fainting episodes would never had made it as safety concerns; just folks ‘tolerating’ the vaccine quite well. Yes sirree bob!

You’re still missing the point. Those reactions would have been noted. Precisely what you said would not have happened. Now you are saying that they would have been ignored if they were noted. Pick your hill or get out of the range.

By Greg’s “logic”, we never learned about the several cases of Bell’s palsy in the Pfizer vaccine trial because that was not an adverse event on the “solicited” adverse event list.

Except that we did, because it was reported as unsolicited adverse events, determined to be occurring within the background rate for the general population.

Greg is not only a troll, but an unusually uninformed and obvious one.

By Greg’s “logic”, we never learned about the several cases of Bell’s palsy in the Pfizer vaccine trial because that was not an adverse event on the “solicited” adverse event list.

No, Dangerous One; the Trial would’ve never picked up the fainting and life-threatening allergic responses because they wouldn’t have counted as solicited systemic reactions occurring 7 days after vaccination. The solicited reactions only included pain at injection site, redness and swelling, fever, fatigue, headache, chills, muscle pain, joint pain, and diarrhea. They also would not have counted as unsolicited adverse reactions, because unsolicited adverse reactions were only counted after the second dose of vaccination. Again — they would’ve just passed as the participants tolerating the vaccine quite well!

Likely, the Bell’s palsy cases were picked up as unsolicited adverse reactions because they occurred after the second dose.

Greg is not only a troll, but an unusually uninformed and obvious one.

Cue Fritz Zwicky. Just shitcan Gerg and he’ll go away.

You notice the word participants (and their diary). Doctors are a separate thing. They would report separately. Otherwise recording after second dose would not make ant sense,

@ Deni¢e regurges, “Funny though, no one complains much about what executives/ developers/ workers make at high tech firms or complains about what their phones/ internet service/ IT products/ computers / entertainment cost. There’s a reason why large cap growth mutual funds are heavily invested in companies like Amazon, Alphabet ( google), Microsoft, Facebook, Apple, ATT, Verizon, Neflix, Alibaba… they make lots of money.”

I’ll break it down for you, Deni¢e. This is a blog about medical matters. Amazon, et al ARE overpaid. I don’t complain about it because it’s NOT RELEVANT. We are not mandated to exclusively use Google, Facebag, et al. We don’t have to watch Netflix for a job. An Apple account is not required for school. WE HAVE A CHOICE. Now do you get it?

God, you’re so boring. Your leaders really need to give you some new talking points or let you go.

I’ll break it down for you, Deni¢e. This is a blog about medical matters.

This is a blog about whatever the fuck Orac cares to write about, Clefts.

Correct! I write mostly about medicine vs. quackery and pseudoscience, but I also wrote about whatever the hell i feel like. Back in the day I used to word about evolution and Holocaust denial a lot too.

And yet, not a word about the plight of the snails, Orkin, or SimpleGreen. Or how the Deep State medicated my great great grandma into oblivion with pallative care —
I salute you great, great grandma, you snuffed out before your time.

@Narad writes, “This is a blog about whatever the fuck Orac cares to write about, Clefts.” Now you’re making fun of congenital deformities? That’s where you needed to go? Sad.

Interestingly and coincidentally it seems most of the pieces featured on RI are of medical matters…especially this last year.

Speaking of medical matters, did the AMA rescind the previous statement against using hydroxychloroquine for Covid 19?

Now you’re making fun of congenital deformities? That’s where you needed to go? Sad.

No, dipshit, the crack in your ass. Think about what could’ve motivated that, Natals.

@ NW:
1) At-will employment. You are free to find a different job if your current job requires a vaccination in order to keep your position. This is America!

2) Home schooling. Private schooling. Both are options if you want to leave your minor children vulnerable to vaccine-preventable diseases.

Dr. Fauxi is warning those who have “allergic tendencies” should not take the vaccine.

Yes, diastheses. And? Did you find any unreasonable statements in the video, or are you merely ignoring the common-sense advice that if you have nothing to say, say nothing?

Yes Natalie, the CDC is also issuing warnings about allergic reactions and telling the public that if they are allergic to any vaccine ingredients they shouldn’t take it. Like the public is generally knowledgeable about pharmaceuticals other than they’re gibberish that usually ends in ‘ate’ or ‘ite’.

I am amused by the the CDC and Fauci appearing to walk a tightrope: not want to be culpable when crap happens, but also not wanting to scare the masses into spurning the vaccine.

NataLIE, have you heard about contraindications ? Severe allergy to one vaccine component has always been one of them. It is a cause for a medical exemption, too.
Develop a PEG allergy and you can fly without a vaccine certificate,

Greg keeps wailing about allergic reactions being concealed while triumphantly pointing to news coverage that publicizes them.

It’s starting to look like Greg is a secret Pharma plant, hoping to make antivaxers look even more foolish than we already know they are.

It’s starting to look like Greg is a secret Pharma plant, hoping to make antivaxers look even more foolish than we already know they are.

Remember when he was intent on denying that he’s Canadian?

Wow. Making fun of a congenital deformity. Not cheeky just sad.

Interestingly and coincidentally most of the pieces within the last year have been on medical matters. And, duh, I’m aware this is Dr. Gorski’s personal blog.

Speaking of medical matters, looks like the AMA has changed it’s stance on hydroxychloroquine treatment.

“RESOLVED, that our American Medical Association rescind its statement calling for 14 physicians to stop prescribing hydroxychloroquine and chloroquine until sufficient evidence 15 becomes available to conclusively illustrate that the harm associated with use outweighs 16 benefit early in the disease course. Implying that such treatment is inappropriate contradicts 17 AMA Policy H-120.988 that addresses off label prescriptions as appropriate in the judgement 18 of the prescribing physician; (New HOD Policy) and be it further”

Apologies if an earlier version of this posts…

Reading comprehension fail by Natalie.

According to that report, a resolution was proposed that would have the A.M.A. rescind its earlier guidance re hydroxychloroquine. The A.M.A. committee that reviewed the resolution recommends that it not be adopted by the A.M.A.

“Many commentors…noted that…several well-designed studies have failed to find benefit in the use of hydroxychloroquine for treatment of COVID-19 in multiple settings. Several who testified also noted that it would be an embarrassment to the AMA and call the credibility of the AMA into question to rescind a statement that was evidence-based and accurate…

…your Reference Committee recommends that Resolution 509 not be adopted and Policy H-120.988 be reaffirmed.”

Natalie: D’oh!

It’s also mystifying that someone heavily into antivax and woo nonsense would approvingly cite the A.M.A. in any context.

Dr. Bacon pokes, “It’s also mystifying that someone heavily into antivax and woo nonsense would approvingly cite the A.M.A. in any context.”

Well, if you must use labels, contrarian is more appropriate. The anti stuff, imo, perpetuates division and black and white thinking.

In the original post, I asked if the AMA had rescinded its guidance regarding hydroxycholoroquine. Just the fact that it is being considered is noteworthy…my opinion and the opinion of many physicians.–67955

Good day and good health to you.

So, last night I was kicking back, relaxing, and checking out some of Del’s Bitchute videos. I love the guy! I came across this one of him interviewing Dr Bhakdi about the potential danger of a Covid vaccine. In addition to Dr Bhakdi spelling out the potential harm so concisely, I was also struck by him echoing Prof Frazer argument of the near impossibility of preventing Corona infections that start in the upper respiratory tract.

And the persecution of this antivaxxer continues unabated! Hey Orac, why are you not posting my comment of Del interviewing Dr Bhakdi about the potential danger of a Covid vaccine. I might be an antivaxxer, Orac, but I am also a person with feelings. Besides — I am also a valuable contributor to this blog, preventing it from lapsing into the full spectra of boring, pharma propaganda

Bhakdi is a retired microbiologist who appears to have been at least competent at one time, but has now skidded off the rails* (another victim of the Emeritus Syndrome?). From his Wikipedia bio:

“The German non-profit Correctiv fact-checked one of Bhakdi’s YouTube videos, and found a number of problematic claims, including the claim that any COVID-19 vaccine would be “pointless”, and that the virus posed no more threat than influenza. Writing for Foreign Policy, Tyson Barker (Head of DGAP’s Technology & Global Affairs Program) described Bhakdi as a prominent example from a “crop of debunked but credentialed so-called experts minting conspiracy theories and undermining fact-based information”.

In October 2020 the University of Mainz issued a statement to the effect that it does not support Bhakdi’s views.”

*Posting fact-deprived YouTube videos and letting yourself be interviewed by Del Bigtree is not a good way to retrieve what shreds of reputation you might have left.

Dangerous One, I think your criticism of Dr Bhakdi smacks of shooting the messenger. Anyway, I am struck by Dr Bhakdi echoing Dr Frazer’s cautions about the potential safety hazards of producing vaccines against Coronas when such infections of the upper respiratory tract are hard to prevent, and the viruses are bound to enter the body anyway. Both Dr Bhakdi and Dr Frazer highlight the potential safety concerns of such attempts. Are we to believe that Dr Frazer is also a ‘crackpot’ too?!

As to Orac, in the spirit of championing speech and differing opinions, do you not agree that it would be beneficial to show the video?

“shooting the messenger”

Wrong metaphor.

I think you meant “throwing out the red herring with the bathwater”.

@Greg Have you noticed that there is a COVID vaccine. More important thing than a quotation form Frazer.

@Greg Have you noticed that there is a COVID vaccine. More important thing than a quotation form Frazer

Indeed there is a Covid vaccine, Aarno, but at what safety cost? Dr Bhakdi and Frazer seem to be suggesting it will likely be a substantial one.

On this issue, I was hoping to have in depth discussions. Squirrel and Athaic, you seem to be the immunology experts around here; it appears that mRna technology is successful at provoking a T-cell response after cells become infected by that technology. What is the substantial difference between the virus infecting naturally and provoking such a response? Why is mRna infection more prone to lead to autoimmunity issues? I am asking this question while setting aside the other issues we are witnessing with the vaccine.

Btw — if you guys are able to satisfy my query, I may not need to spend $20 on Dr Bhakdi’s, Corona False Alarm. Think of it as a way you can get back at him.

It is not mRNA infection. MRNA of whole virus is not used (which of course would mean same thing than infecting with virus itself, it is a positive sense RNA virus). It is mRNA of a part of the spike protein, which produces the protein itself. This causes immune response against the protein, and thus against the virus itself.

Ahh, got it so all qualified people are ‘competent’ until they go against the vaccine narrative, got it, Dangerous One..

I admire your perseverance on here, Greg. I wrote a lengthy response to Orac’s article and would have been delighted to hear his counters, but no, not on the right side of the fence it seems. (Open debate and transparency just too much to ask for).

I wrote a lengthy response to Orac’s article and would have been delighted to hear his counters, but no, not on the right side of the fence it seems. (Open debate and transparency just too much to ask for).

You mean this? As for replies, you’re no more entitled to Orac’s time than anyone is to anyone else’s.

I admire your perseverance on here, Greg. I wrote a lengthy response to Orac’s article and would have been delighted to hear his counters, but no, not on the right side of the fence it seems. (Open debate and transparency just too much to ask for).

Thanks, Tamara! Now and again they find no amount of ad-homs and insults are sufficient to undermine certain info, so they just block it, or if they let it through, they just conveniently not respond to it.

The same way you find out if you have any other allergy? It’s not like Big Shellfish sends you an email just before you develop a shellfish allergy. Allergies are 100% you and your immune system. If you don’t like it, go have a word with your eosinophils.

Notice that Fauci said people with people with general allergies should not take COVID vaccine, PEG is a common food additive, which means people allergic to it would be allergic to many foods.

Baking soda does seem to keep the corona at bay. It’s only slightly less effective than ground up fluorescent light tubes which are sometimes hard to obtain with any thing like medical grade consistency. Cheaper to.

Source: eats baking soda in pica-like fashion

Source: eats baking soda in pica-like fashion

When I was a child, I would consume Accent meat tenderizer straight from the canister.

Ha! I ate the Accent to but it was the ‘flavor enhancer’ kind (I think) — 100% msg

I had to climb onto the top of the refrigerator to reach it. r/kidsarefuckingstupid

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