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Bronny James suffers a cardiac arrest, and Elon Musk amplifies the antivax “died suddenly” conspiracy

LeBron James’ son Bronny suffered a cardiac arrest. Unsurprisingly, antivaxxers claimed it was COVID-19 vaccines. Worse, Elon Musk agreed. Sadly, the “died suddenly” lie lives on.

Honestly, I had planned on not blogging today, mainly because I have an August 4 grant deadline. However, the pandemic being the pandemic and antivax conspiracy mongering being antivax conspiracy mongering (meaning that it never sleeps), I decided I had to say something about Bronny James.

LeBron (Bronny) James Jr. is the 18-year-old son of NBA legend LeBron James. If you’ve paid any attention to the news over the last day or so, you’ll be aware that on Monday Bronny James suffered a cardiac arrest during a USC Trojans basketball practice:

Bronny James, the older son of NBA star LeBron James, suffered a cardiac arrest during basketball practice at the University of Southern California and was hospitalized Monday, according to a statement from a family spokesperson. 

He is out of the intensive care unit and in stable condition, the statement said.

“Yesterday while practicing Bronny James suffered a cardiac arrest. Medical staff was able to treat Bronny and take him to the hospital. He is now in stable condition and no longer in ICU,” the statement said.

“We ask for respect and privacy for the James family and we will update media when there is more information.

“LeBron and Savannah wish to publicly send their deepest thanks and appreciation to the USC medical and athletic staff for their incredible work and dedication to the safety of their athletes.”

Bronny, 18, is an incoming freshman for USC’s basketball team after graduating from Sierra Canyon High School in Los Angeles this spring. The 6-foot-3 combo guard was rated a four-star recruit and shined in the McDonald’s All-American Game in March featuring some of the country’s top high school basketball players.


Like most people, I was happy to learn that James survived and appears to be on the mend—also to be reminded that AEDs are so widely available. (They really do save lives, people.) Like others who pay attention to antivax conspiracy theories, I was simultaneously anxious, because I knew what was coming next. Sure enough, it didn’t take long before antivaxxers started insinuating that it must have been COVID-19 vaccines that caused the cardiac arrest, invoking the “died suddenly” conspiracy theory mainly by JAQing off about whether Bronny James had been vaccinated against COVID-19.

Sadly, one of those doing the JAQing off was Elon Musk himself:

I’d rephrase Musk’s appeal to ignorance slightly: We don’t know everything about the vaccine and its adverse events, but that doesn’t mean that we know nothing, nor does it mean that we can’t say with a great deal of confidence that it isn’t causing a wave of young athletes to “die suddenly.”

Note the leap, a common leap made by antivaxxers, specifically: The mRNA-based COVID-19 vaccines can cause myocarditis (which is nearly always mild and self-limited); so that must mean that in this case the vaccine could have caused a cardiac arrest.

But enough of the Chief Twit and his tendency to amplify the very worst people on his platform. Here’s a quack named Dr. Weston “Wiggy” Saunders, who wasted little time posting a video speculating on why Bronny James might have had a cardiac arrest. Last night he asked “Why?”:

That last sentence: “He should take as much time as he needs to process but I know he must be asking the question, WHY?” My question is: Why is Dr. Saunders such an antivax conspiracy monger? Oh, I know. He’s an “integrative” medicine doc.

Then this morning he posted this:

The word “thoughts” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

I perused Dr. Saunders’ Twitter feed, and, suffice to say, it’s a cesspit of quackery (e.g., touting high dose vitamin C as a “miracle“) and antivax nonsense (e.g., amplifying bogus “studies”). His website leads to a page saying it’s down for 72 hour maintenance, but a quick gander through the almighty Wayback Machine shows that it’s just a supplement store. However, a Google search did find his practice website.

So it’s as little of a surprise as noticing that Dr. Saunders is a Twitter Blue Check that to notice how begins his video by asserting confidently that it’s Not Normal for an 18-year-old like Bronny James to have a cardiac arrest. This is, of course, true as far as it goes, but not in the way Dr. Saunders appears mean it. A cardiac arrest during strenuous exercise is a sign of an abnormality, just not the abnormality that Dr. Saunders wants you to believe it’s a sign of, namely that the cardia arrest must have been due to the dreaded mRNA COVID-19 vaccine. To try to convince you of that point, he then complains about how we are “normalizing” cardiac arrests, apparently because “They” don’t want you to know that it’s the vaccines:

I do think it’s important for us to be asking some questions because this is not a normal event and we shouldn’t be trying to normalize an 18-year-old having a cardiac arrest. That is not a normal thing, and we shouldn’t be seeing that. So, there are a handful of things that I think could be contributing, but I think we need to be asking some of these questions.

Gee, guess which question is at the very top of Dr. Saunders’ list of “these questions” that we “need to be asking.”

First of all, I have to wonder. Dr. Saunders says he’s board certified in Family Medicine. Has he never had to do sports physicals for children and adolescents who are signing up to play school sports? My wife, who is a pediatric nurse practitioner, has done more sports physicals than she can remember. There’s a reason why sports physicals are generally required before adolescents and even young adults can play school sports, and it’s because—believe it or not, Dr. Saunders!—young athletes could and did suffer cardiac arrests playing sports before the pandemic. Even more than that! Although rare, it’s not so rare that there aren’t foundations dedicated to improving knowledge and awareness of the phenomenon that were founded long before the pandemic. There are even books about it from before the pandemic:

SADS
A representative book on SADS.

As well as infographics:

SADS infographic
A typical infographic about SADS.

It’s not so rare that we don’t know risk factors that might indicate a higher risk in a given young person to suffer a cardiac arrest and even genetic and biochemical abnormalities that predispose to it. Indeed, the syndrome even had a name before the pandemic, Sudden Arrhythmic Death Syndrome (SADS). There are even review articles like this one (note the year):

Sudden death in the young is of cardiovascular origin in the majority of cases. A considerable rate of SD cases remains of unknown cause on post-mortem. Apart from channelopathies, subclinical forms of inherited structural heart diseases would appear to be implicated in SADS. Clinically guided genetic screening has a significant diagnostic yield and identifies affected families that would have been missed by the current suggested molecular autopsy panel.

It’s also a condition that has been studied since the 1970s:

Sudden Arrhythmia Death Syndrome (SADS) occurs when a person’s heart appears to stop without cause, often in what appear to be perfectly healthy, young adults or those in middle age. SADS was first noted in the late ’70s and early ’80s by the CDC as “ sudden, unexpected nocturnal death syndrome .”

SADS can be caused by a range of disorders responsible for irregular heartbeats (arrhythmias), but are subtle enough to go undetected or are so rare that they are not tested for in routine checkups. These conditions do not cause physical abnormalities or damage to the heart, and instead, interfere on some level with the electrical impulses that causes the heart to beat. Because the heart stops beating after death, it is often difficult to diagnose these arrhythmias, which then leads to the mysterious label. Modern technology, however, has shed light on a few likely causes.

Approximately 600 Canadians die from SADS each year, according to the Canadian SADS Foundation , an organization established in 1995.

In the US:

The US-based SADS Foundation has said that over half of the 4,000 annual SADS deaths of children, teens or young adults have one of the top two warning signs present.

Those signs include a family history of a SADS diagnosis or sudden unexplained death of a family member, and fainting or seizure during exercise, or when excited or startled, reported news.com.au.

One source, pointed out in refutation of another antivaxxer, estimates that approximately 2,000 young athletes per year in the US suffer SADS:

The differences in the figures generally boil down to differences defining what does and does not definitely count as a SADS case and to whether the study includes just athletes or both athletes and non-athletes, but it is clear that SADS, while, uncommon, is hardly rare and that there is not some sort of “epidemic” of SADS associated with COVID-19 vaccination. Indeed, if you look at the data showing an increase in cardiac deaths in young people, you’ll see that it corresponds far more closely to COVID-19 itself, not the vaccine:

Indeed. If anything, epidemiological data suggest that it is COVID-19, not the vaccine, that is much more of a risk factor for sudden cardiac deaths in young people.

Most physicians who are not COVID-19 antivax conspiracy theorists know that SADS happens and has always happened. We know how tragic such deaths are, given that they happen unexpectedly in children, adolescents, and young adults. We also know how puzzling they are to family, friends, and the physicians who take care of these patients. In general, such deaths tend to be due to conduction abnormalities in the heart, frequently congenital. Indeed,  Sudden Arrhythmia Death Syndrome, with arrhythmia meaning a heart rhythm abnormality, and the term was first observed in the 1970s and 1980s, when the CDC reported the observation of a “sudden, unexpected nocturnal death syndrome.”

I’ve wrote about SADS in depth about a year ago, but before I go on I think it’s worth again quoting a source that I quoted in my original post that describes the known causes, if only to point out what a fool or grifter Dr. Saunders is:

Long QT syndrome. Long QT syndrome can be both genetic or caused by certain medications, according to Johns Hopkins Medicine . In a healthy heart, an electrical impulse causes the heart muscles to contract in a co-ordinated manner that we know as a heartbeat. In long QT syndrome, the cells take longer to recharge for the next heart beat than would be expected. This can lead to torsades de pointes , a potentially fatal heart rhythm in which the lower chambers (ventricles) of the heart beat faster than the upper chambers (atria). There usually aren’t any symptoms for long QT, although some patients may experience heart palpitations, dizziness, fainting or seizures. It can also be diagnosed through an echocardiogram (ECG).

Brugada syndrome. A genetic condition in which sodium channels in the heart cells malfunction, Brugada syndrome causes an irregular heartbeat, according to Cedars-Sinai . In extreme circumstances, the lower ventricles of the heart may start to beat faster than the atria, which can lead to cardiac arrest. This condition is very rare, affecting roughly five of every 10,000 people globally.

Progressive cardiac conduction defect. A rare, genetic condition, progressive cardiac conduction defect slows the electrical impulses that make the heart beat, according to the British Heart Foundation . Over time, this can lead to a third-degree heart block , where the electrical impulses don’t reach from the top of the heart (atria) to the bottom (ventricles). Patients identified to have this type of heart rhythm may be fitted with a pacemaker to ensure their safety.

Seriously, I bet there was at least one question about SADS on Dr. Saunders’ last board recertification exam in Family Medicine. Of course, he could have gotten a question or two wrong and still passed to quack again.

Other conditions associated with SADS include Arrhythmogenic Right Ventricular Dysplasia/Cardiomyopathy (ARVD/C), Catecholaminergic Polymorphic Ventricular Tachycardia (CPVT), short QT syndrome, Wolff Parkinson White (WPW) syndrome, and Timothy syndromes.

In fairness, I must mention that Dr. Saunders does go on to list—after vaccines, of course—some of the known causes of SADS. It bothers him not at all that by doing so he contradicts his initial clear implication that such cardiac arrests never happen absent vaccines. On the other hand, he does bat each nonvaccine cause down one by one as much so much less unlikely as causes than the vaccine, because, again, he led his video with the assertion that it is “not normal” for an 18-year-old elite athlete like Bronny James to have a sudden cardiac arrest. So he mentions an undetected cardiac conduction abnormality or congenital heart abnormality or the possibility of some drug use as potential “other causes” that he considers so much less likely than COVID-19 vaccines. He even trots out the example of Damar Hamlin, who almost certainly suffered his cardiac arrest during a nationally televised NFL game because of commotio cordis, a cardiac arrest caused by a blow to the chest.

Again, all of this is true, but only as far as it goes and not for the reasons that Dr. Saunders insinuates when he concludes that “in my opinion this is most likely a…COVID vaccine injury from the mRNA vaccine” that caused a “low level myocarditis” that led to cardiac arrest when an extra demand was placed on the heart by high intensity physical activity. Dr. Saunders should, as a family medicine doctor, know that in many cases no definitive cause of SADS is ever found and that even detailed pre-competition evaluation of elite athletes in college and professional sports have a significant false negative rate. As this review points out, even more intensive genetic screening has a downside and is likely to miss a number of cases:

Furthermore, the sensitivity of genetic testing of inherited cardiac disease is limited (range 25–75%) even when the clinical diagnosis is definite.10 It is well established that the presence of a genetic mutation alone cannot provide clinical evidence and especially missense mutations should be interpreted with great caution. Genetic tests must be viewed in most cases by clinicians as probabilistic tests, not binary (positive/negative) tests.13 Therefore, this model presents some serious disadvantages for implementation in routine health care that increases further if the high cost of non-targeted genetic testing is also considered. Recently Bai et al.25showed that the blind/not clinically guided screening of family members of SCD victim on LQTS and BrS genes is largely ineffective and costly.

While this review article specifically about sudden cardiac death in athletes notes that in-depth screening requires specialized knowledge:

Evaluation extending beyond a history, physical exam, and ECG is indicated if any of these preparticipation tests are abnormal and/or an athlete presents with symptoms during the course of practice or competition (Figure 1). It is critical that downstream testing, which can include cardiac imaging, exercise testing, and electrophysiological evaluation, is delivered and interpreted by physicians (typically cardiologists) who understand the cardiovascular adaptations to exercise training and resultant physiologic changes in the heart’s structure and function—the so-called “athlete’s heart.” In most athletes, cardiac changes induced by exercise are modest and easily distinguishable from cardiac pathology. However, in a small subset of athletes, vigorous training is associated with more profound electrical and structural changes that may overlap with phenotypically mild manifestations of cardiac disease. For example, sports with significant isometric exercise may induce left ventricular hypertrophy with wall thicknesses in the 12- to 14-mm range, the same range as that of mild HCM (“gray zone” hypertrophy).39 A small but significant proportion of endurance athletes will have dilated left ventricular (LV) cavities with low normal LV function, which overlaps with findings of a dilated cardiomyopathy.40 These physiologic changes to the left ventricle may be accompanied by right ventricular (RV) dilation and reduced systolic function, which could raise concern for ARVC in the appropriate context. In these types of cases, it is crucial that an expert team—including cardiologists familiar with the care of athletic patients—select and interpret the required testing to more clearly distinguish cardiac pathology from physiologic remodeling. Comprehensive exercise testing (typically including cardiopulmonary exercise testing) is a critical component of the evaluation of such patients. For the cases of gray zone hypertrophy, techniques such as prescribed detraining (assessing for LV hypertrophy regression after a period of inactivity) may need to be employed.41

The bottom line is that it’s not trivial to identify athletes at risk for SADS, and it requires specialists to evaluate those found to have risk factors for the condition. None of this stops Dr. Saunders from concluding with some despicable conspiracy mongering:

But, you know, if the family is not asking these questions and they’re not trying to get to the bottom of what actually happened, then we may never know, but that’s just my thoughts and why we should be asking some of these hard questions.

Word to Dr. Saunders: It’s not a “hard” question to conspiracy monger about vaccines as the cause of something that they do not appear to cause. It’s just antivax conspiracy mongering.

Of course Dr. Saunders is one of the “reasonable” antivaxxers JAQing off about Bronny James’ cardiac arrest. Leave it to Dr. Paul Alexander to be really unhinged about it in posts like If LeBron James was vaccinated for COVID, was his son Bronny? I argue yes, until we are shown conclusively he was not and did not have myocarditis or pericarditis…we keep the vaccine as the cause of and Bronny James, LeBron James son (literally died) suffered a cardiac arrest on court, must thank God had urgent help (CPR etc.) & is at high risk of death here on! ‘Vaccine induced ‘silent myocarditis’. (Dude’s headlines tell you how he writes.) Seriously, when I say unhinged, I mean unhinged:

No basketball or football player or no teen, no one, no airline pilot, none, no one who took the shots and engage in physical activity (even accounting for the deaths we see when people are ‘rising’ at dawn, waking from sleep, the adrenaline rush as we ‘rise’ or wake strains the myocarditis damaged heart that was ‘silent’ and our partner may find us dead in the morning next to them) or work in stressful situations (that results in adrenaline, catecholamine being released into the blood stream) must take to the field, the court, the cockpit etc. until their industry mandates the right testing to rule out silent myocarditis; 

this is a catastrophic sequelae for the mRNA technology based shots by Weissman, Bourla, Malone, Sahin etc. scars the heart and disturbs electrical conduction across the heart, the heart forever will be sub-optimal and when the teen with the silent myocarditis with no symptoms, takes to the field, the adrenaline baths the scarred heart muscle and it is too much, it places the scarred heart under strain; irregular atrial rythms results etc. and eventual cardiac arrest and possible death; Bronny James likely suffered this sequence and he is lucky to be alive; my hope is that high-level people like this would use their disaster to inform and educate the public and the world! And not conspire with pharma and the government and CDC etc. to cover this disaster up!

Until his vaccine status is shown and his myocarditis status and until it is ruled out, then the mRNA vaccine is on the table as the key cause, direct or indirect. This is the 10 ton elephant in the room.


Unsurprisingly, Dr. Peter McCullough is on the “died suddenly” conspiracy train about Bronny James too; only he generalizes it to more athletes because he had been promoting a nonsensical conspiracy-laden narrative that claims that 1,887 athletes have “died suddenly” because of the vaccines.

Basically, Dr. Saunders is just Dr. Alexander and Dr. McCullough in a more reasonable-sounding visage. Unfortunately, every time one of these sorts of tragic collapses of a young person happens, the family will be besieged by questions about vaccines, thanks to antivaxxers desperately wanting to link these cardiac arrests to COVID-19 vaccines, including by right wing media:

Yet Musk was not alone in playing up a supposed link between Bronny’s cardiac arrest and Covid vaccines. Fox News host Martha MacCallum repeatedly questioned her guest, Fox Medical Correspondent Dr. Janette Nesheiwat, regarding the validity of a link between vaccinations and increased rates of heart failure while referencing Musk’s tweet in the process.

Nesheiwat stated that James would need to undergo testing to determine the cause of his cardiac arrest.

The horror of the “died suddenly” narrative goes beyond just its stoking fear, uncertainty, and doubt about COVID-19 vaccines. The idea that vaccines cause SADS in young athletes subjects the family of such victims to harassment and questioning that implicitly blames the family (e.g., LeBron James and his wife Savannah) or their loved one (like Bronny James) for having “brought it on” the victim. It goes along with a lot of the victim blaming at the heart of antivax narratives and alternative medicine.

ADDENDUM:

A few people on “our side” are irritating the hell out of me with their oh-so-“moderate” and -“reasonable” takes like:

Here’s the take that irritates me:

#1 The media, who is attacking Musk for stating that “We cannot ascribe everything to the vaccine but, by the same token, we cannot ascribe nothing,” are taking things overboard a bit. Focus on better things. I know this gets you clicks.

“Taking things overboard a bit”? Dude, it’s a big deal when someone like Elon Musk JAQs off in order to amplify the “died suddenly” antivax conspiracy theory. Saying that people are attacking Musk because they want the clicks is basically the same thing as the “pharma shill” gambit is when employed by antivaxxers: Claiming that someone is doing something for primarily mercenary reasons rather than because they believe in it, all in order to discredit them. And then to say something as stupid as, “Focus on better things.” WTF? That’s tone policing. One wonders if Mr. Krassenstein is in essence sucking up to Mr. Musk, because that’s how it comes across to me.

People like this are almost as irritating to me as antivaxxers. Sometimes more so, if only because they should know better.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

99 replies on “Bronny James suffers a cardiac arrest, and Elon Musk amplifies the antivax “died suddenly” conspiracy”

There is a new study stating that the booster caused 1/35 to get myocardial injury; that would appear way more common than any public health authority has admitted thus far. Not saying that the vaccine is definitely the cause, but a reasonable question is how does the risk of myocarditis from the vaccine compare with the base rate of young people with heart defects/SADs? At the very least it seems it warrants investigation – meaning Musk’s response is the most reasonable.

There is a new study stating that the booster caused 1/35 to get myocardial injury;

Of course you don’t have a link.

meaning Musk’s response is the most reasonable.

A comment like his, based on ignorance and a history of spouting mis- and disinformation, is never reasonable. The same thing applies to your opinions.

Those wailing about “this has never happened before” need to look up Hank Gathers and Reggie Lewis, who both collapsed and died on the basketball court (in 1990 and 1993 respectively), with both cases of sudden cardiac death being due to hypertrophic cardiomyopathy.

Among athletes, young black men playing basketball are at heightened risk of sudden cardiac death.

Fortunately, Bronny James’ collapse was treated in time.

Antivax ghouls are despicable.

It really surprises me how many people seem totally unaware of these sorts of things. I don’t know that many people. By the age of 10 a classmate of mine had a sudden cardiac arrest at swim practice who died. By the age of 20, one of the other biology majors at my college had their heart stopped from a baseball to the chest during a college game, luckily they survived.

I had a heart murmur as a kid (probably still do they say it is harder to hear with a stethoscope) and seemed to pick up on the idea that it may be a nothing, or it might be a something, but there was a sense that competitive sports was discouraged, or would require some testing to make sure it was OK.

There was a letter to the editor this week in my local paper from a man whose son, like Bronny James, survived cardiac arrest during sports activity thanks to CPR. Said son was apparently found to have a heart defect that was surgically corrected. Letter writer admitted full scale screening is not effective or reasonable so emphasized that if you have symptoms like dizziness or fainting, talk to your doctor, and that everyone should learn CPR. It was a refreshingly realistic LttE.

It shouldn’t surprise anyone, and would be suppressing if this didn’t happen. It’s sometime referred to as the ‘Baader–Meinhof phenomenon’ ( or the more boring ‘frequency effect’) – we are unable to accurately estimate the frequency of events, especially when we first notice them.
The sad part is that people like John are unwilling to accept any evidence that doesn’t fit with their narrative, or to listen to those who disagree.

“There is a new study stating that the booster caused 1/35 to get myocardial injury”

Wrong. It detected the possibility of a cardiac event, but it’s not specific enough to determine injury. The authors also note that all cases are “mild and transitory”, with the vast majority of them being asymptomatic, in that no one could even tell that they had any issues, nor was any issue detected by physicians.

I don’t know why anti-vaxxers don’t have their internet access pulled, completely.

There’s a new study showing that antivax comments get 42% more deceitful when Mom doesn’t heat the hotpockets sufficiently before bringing them to the basement. I’m not saying there’s a causal relationship, but it warrants investigation. With a little bit of better treatment, antivaxxers might be more willing to shower and finally finish that application for the McDonalds job.Just saying…

Can dehydration or lack of electrolytes cause a cardiac arrest? No one seems to be mentioning that during a heat wave.

It seems unlikely in Bronny’s case, if only because basketball is played indoors in an air-conditioned arena.

Also that an elite athlete like him, with an elite athlete for a father, would certainly be hydrating during workouts, simply because they’ve grown up training doing that.

@ John La Barge

Here is a list of some of the papers I have on COVID, COVID vaccines, & myocarditis. I have carefully read ALL of them. Cases of myocarditis from actual COVID much much higher, longer lasting with possible serious outcomes. Cases from vaccines much fewer, shorter duration, very few long term adverse events. As I’ve written in numerous comments, we don’t live in a perfect world of black and white, so I carefully evaluate probabilities, both positive and negative and the risk from the vaccines is much much lower than from actual COVID. As usual, you give no references, make claims based on your clearly having NO understanding of science, the immune system, etc. JUST KEEP MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF. YOU REALLY ARE AN ASSHOLE! ! !

COVID & MYOCARDITIS
Reference List

American Heart Association (2022 Aug 22). COVID-19 infection poses higher risk for myocarditis than vaccines .pdf

JP Block et al. (2022 Apr 8). Cardiac Complications After SARS-CoV-2 Infection and mRNA COVID-19 Vaccination — PCORnet, United States, January 2021–January 2022. MMWR.pdf

Fernanda Ferreira (2022 Apr 9). Higher myocarditis risk after COVID-19 than mRNA vaccination; contrary to Peter McCullough’s claim, young persons decrease their risk by getting vaccinated. Health Feedback.pdf

Jonathan Howard (2023 Jan 30). Medical Conservatives/ A High Rate of COVID-Myocarditis is “Good News”, A Low Rate of Vaccine-Myocarditis is “Deeply Concerning”. Science-Based Medicine.pdf

Tom Shimabukuro (2022 Jun 7). Update on myocarditis following mRNA COVID-19 vaccination. Vaccines and Related Biological ProductsAdvisory Committee (VRBPAC). CDC .pdf

Yan Xie et al. (2022 Mar). Long-term cardiovascular outcomes of COVID-19. Nature Medicine; Vol. 29: 583-590.pdf

All I and Musk(first) said essentially is that it warrants investigation. I don’t see how that should be in anyway controversial. Indeed isn’t it rather the opposite of science not to want to know the answer?

Oh, please. It has been investigated, as I cited above. Epidemiological evidence is far more consistent with increases in cardiac mortality among the young being associated with COVID-19, not COVID-19 vaccination.🤦🏻‍♂️

Elon Musk was just ignorantly JAQing off, as usual.

A. A medical problem like this would be investigated. There is no actual need for anti-vaccine activists online to call for it.

B. No, you’re not just calling for investigation. What you’re doing is akin to saying “This building suddenly collapsed. We cannot say it’s necessarily because the reptilian overlords removed the foundation, but we also cannot rule that out. We need to investigate if it’s because of the reptilian overlords removing the foundation.”

What this does is try to put the reptilian overlords as one of the potential causes, and imply that yes, it may well be the cause, here or in other cases of building collapsing.

It brings it in, and it suggests that it’s a reasonable cause – neither of which are good arguments here.

No. Myocarditis is linked to mRNA vaccines; so it’s not like that at all.

“Myocarditis is linked to mRNA vaccines”

such a blatant liar. Why does Orac continue to let you post here? I have NEVER seen you ever post anything reasonable, at all. ever. makes me wonder if you aren’t a fictional entity.

It’s WORSE in wild COVID cases. You keep on, willfully, ignoring this simple, established FACT.

That doesn’t matter. The vaccine does not stop you from getting Covid. So the odds are additive.

All I and Musk(first) said essentially is that it warrants investigation.

No. You and Musk are trying to leverage a debunked scare tactic about the “dangers” of the vaccine because you think the people even less knowledgeable than you will buy it.

Using the health issues of anyone to leverage your favorite conspiracy isn’t asking questions, it’s simply despicable.

You (and Musk) keep ignoring the evidence we have. Is that what you call ‘science’? What use is another investigation, if you (and Musk) will ignore it when you don’t like the results? Do you (and Musk) really want to know – or do you only want to confirms your (and Musk’s) “sincerely held” beliefs?

I think the cultish type nature with which vaccines are defended from scrutiny (you’re JAQing off!) and the conflict of interest of those insisting their safety (along with their efforts to hide the data) indicates that the ‘evidence’ you have may be quite one sided.

And honestly the resistance to just looking into it makes the whole safety assurance circular: 1) vaccines are safe and effective 2)calling for investigations is JAQing off about vaccines which are above reproach; 3) therefore we will not look into whether serious adverse events are more common than we were forced to report 4) there is no evidence if we won’t look into it see 1). This is the circle jerk that is Covid-19 vaccine safety (or for that matter probably all vaccine safety). In my opinion if you rely on it, it’s similar to any fringe religion.

calling for investigations is JAQing off about vaccines which are above reproach

The investigations you want have been done. You don’t like the answers because they don’t fit your conspiracy viewpoint.

I’m not rejecting further studies – just you blindness to those studies that have been published.

Can you explain what papers do you find to be credible?

“Can you explain what papers do you find to be credible?”

Rather, can you detail what is wrong with current studies. Include rational critiques as to why the data don’t show what is described in the conclusion.

You can start with the trials and their classification of ‘unvaccinated’. Then take a look at that classification in the CDCs publications about hospitalization. There is always at least an escape hatch to be able to muddy that definition to get to the story you want.

@john labarge So, what is exacty the problem ? Try to spell it out.

@johnlabarge

All I and Musk(first) said essentially is that it warrants investigation. …

… while suggesting (just short of claiming) from the onset that TEH VAX caused it. This is yet another fine example of JAQing off.
What DOES warrant investigation, however, is why people like you insist on killing people by spreading FUD and lies about vaccines.

As long as a particular disease causes many orders of magnitude more harm than a vaccine against that disease, you should simply keep your mouth shut about those vaccines. Or, if you insist on mentioning any (real, proven) harmful effects, at the same time ALSO mention that the disease is far more hazardous than the vaccine.

What you are doing now is basically the same as suggesting to people that air travel is far more dangerous than driving by exclusively pointing at (and hugely exaggerating / lying about) airplane disasters.
And I wouldn’t be surprised if air travel still killed more people annually than vaccines …

How dare one question the sacred juice of The Science! We even have a derogatory term for those who would dare question it!

How dare one question the sacred juice of The Science! We even have a derogatory term for those who would dare question it!

I don’t know whether you truly don’t understand this or whether you’re just being a dick, but…

There is nothing sacred about looking at the data and studies have been done, as well as what is known about these cases, and realizing that the overwhelming majority of the evidence rules out the vaccines as being the cause of this. I get that you believe that everyone involved in the work of designing the studies, carrying them out, collecting the measurements, and analyzing the data is on the take, but that notion is so unrealistic that it can be dismissed out of hand. With widespread uniform unethical behavior off the table, we’re back to the two possibilities I gave at the start.

Now not understanding the science or the statistics is understandable — both are difficult. If that’s the case your best bet it to try to learn something. I won’t hold my breath since working hard and learning seem to be two things you’re unwilling to do.

Being a dick: well, given you history of asserting the “on the take” conspiracy, repeated references to “big pharma”, and your recent comment of “No, I don’t trust your data” implying a universal discounting of all the data collected relating to this: I’m gonna say that even though I can’t say this with certainty the evidence is pretty strong that that is the case for you.

And you never give a link to a study. This is because you always misquote them. A circle jerk, indeed.

@johnlabarge

How dare one question the sacred juice of The Science!

You wouldn’t recognize science if it bit you in the behind.

You are also not ‘questioning science’. What you’re doing is brainlessly parroting the lies, misinformation and unproven assumptions from people who claim to do science, yet betray important scientific principles.

I’m embarrassed for Orac that he continues to let you post your utter lies and drivel here, bargy.

Orac… just stop it. Stop it now.

I usually agree with most of what you write but not here:
I venture- if I might- that Orac doesn’t want to censor people who disagree with him AND, more importantly, he may want readers to understand how anti-vaxxers/ anti-PH/ SBM denialists think.

I read/ hear many anti-vaxxers/ et al and am often surprised at how they view the world and construct alternate realities to justify their positions. Of course, I am able to ascertain how much they misunderstand research results and GENERAL background in bio/ physio/ psych/ stat. Amongst the people I survey most, I am quite sure that none of them have as much background in these areas as I do and I’m not a physician or biologist. It’s easy to see their error and mistaken ideas: they jump out at you.

I often suggest that readers delve into the alternate universe of misinformation that sustains anti-vax: that’s why I name perpetrators and their sites/ broadcasts/ orgs. Their allies who comment here reflect prevalent beliefs and tropes well.

@Denice Walter
I would even go one further, and say that the vast majority of antivaxxers and supporters of alternative medicine and pseudoscience really believe the things they say, and as such are not bad faith actors.
The question of course is how and why these people develop those beliefs, especially given that many of these people are by no means stupid.
(This is also the core subject of my recently published book Mind, Make-Believe and Medicine.)

@ Richard Rasker:

Of course they believe! It’s a religion, based on faith which becomes intimately entwined with their identity.
They utilise their ideas to bolster their own self-esteem, elevating themselves as brave mavericks, rebels, paradigm shifters and truth tellers probably to compensate for other flaws.

Because they rely upon their own evaluations of their abilities, the fact that they are not accepted by most others is irrelevant to them: they know better! Most people integrate others’ evaluations into their own self-concept: a teacher tells them they are good at certain subjects, a parent encourages them to improve their grades. By adolescence, they begin to get a realistic idea of their abilities based on outside evaluations– grades, approval by adults, acceptance into university, accolades etc.

But some people don’t fare as well. I venture that much of the crap alties/ anti-vaxxers produce serves as a means of self-aggrandisement and a way to attract admiration. Perhaps their dismissal of authorities/ experts stems from earlier rejections they still resent.They’ll show them!
HOWEVER I think that many might have a grain of self-awareness of their own insufficiencies which leads to fearfulness of being found out and fuels their vehemence against experts.

no, it’s not an argument that merits thought. all it does is spark anger. if you cannot see this, try rereading some of the responses to him, over the last YEAR or more. it is entirely pointless to entertain such a position. it is NOT doing any good whatsoever. you are entirely mistaken. you should get rid of LaBarge for the exact same reason Orac refuses to debate these nutters. YOU ARE GIVING THEM A LEGITIMATE PLATFORM.

It amazes me you all cannot fathom this.

By that standard, the idea that you, personally, caused those myocardial infarctions would “warrant investigation.” There is no reason to believe that, either, but your standard seems to be that “any accusation, once stated anywhere, warrants investigation, and it would be anti-science not to investigate them all.”

Or is it only the anti-vaccine accusations that deserve endless “investigation,” and can never be refuted?

No it seems to be a medical intervention know to cause a myriad of health problems, specifically with the heart, above the rate of heart defects in USC basketball players, warrants investigation. And I think if you don’t you’re in a vaccine cult.

When I took a sports medicine summer course, way back in the 90’s, one of the things we learned was CPR, specifically because, as our instructor explained, if you are hit in the chest with a basketball at exactly the right moment, the impact can interrupt the electrical signals of the heart, causing cardiac arrest and therefore a need for CPR. (This was before AEDs were a thing.)

It’s something that people in the sports world have known about for literally decades. It’s not new.
For goodness sake.

He even trots out the example of Damar Hamlin, who almost certainly suffered his cardiac arrest during a nationally televised NFL game because of commotio cordis, a cardiac arrest caused by a blow to the chest.

Chris Proger [hockey] took a slapshot to the chest in 1988 and had a similar result.

Pronger managed to stand up following the impact and took two strides before falling to the ice. Teammates huddled around Pronger. Both athletic training staffs rushed to his side.

Neither Blues trainer Ray Barile nor team physician Dr. Aaron Birenbaum could find a pulse on Pronger’s neck or wrist. Pronger’s lips were blue, and becoming bluer by the second, while his eyes were rolled back into his head. Barile cut Pronger’s jersey and shoulder pads to prepare to perform CPR when, suddenly, he awoke.
Article continues
Pronger was rushed to Henry Ford Hospital in Detroit and diagnosed with commotio cordis, which is a disruption of rhythm that occurs as a result of a blow to the area directly over the heart at a critical time during the cycle of a heartbeat.

He came back to play 949 more games over 19 seasons.

When an event like cardiac arrest can occur in either of two groups (those with, or without, a particular risk factor), then single case reports cannot be relied on as evidence. A controlled study of some sort (epidemiologic, observational, or randomized) is needed. Otherwise, drawing conclusions from uncontrolled data is a fool’s game.

It’s gotten so that whenever someone dies and it makes the news, I check to see if anti-Covid vaccine crazies have latched onto it yet.

Sinead O’Connor? You betcha.

I miss the days before Covid vaccines when no one died. But it was hell getting a restaurant reservation or a seat on the subway.

I miss the days before Covid vaccines when no one died.

The downside: hiking trails were clogged with people. Nothing worse than being alone in nature and being surrounded by others.

Of course Mush himself isn’t commenting for clicks – he’s a highly trained medical professional sharing his informed opinion with us ignoramuses….

How can NASA trust our astronauts to Musk? Vaccines are not rocket science. Musk doesn’t even grok vaccines. Stockton Rush had a reckless disregard of science that caused 5 deaths in his clearly shortcutted submersible. If Musk is this stupid on vaccines, it bodes poorly for astronauts relying on Musk’s SpaceX.

How can NASA trust our astronauts to Musk?

We can only hope that he has less input into plans and design for his spaceships than he did/does for tesla and twitter.

Anti-vaccine horror stories and insinuations about deaths “caused” by the Covid vaccine are used to rally support from particular groups. Orac or one of his regulars recently posted an article about how children’s vaccine rates are improving after the hit they took during the pandemic: coverage for MMR was good ( not great) at over 90%. We know that overall rates of Covid vaccination was about 81%.
What this tells me is that most people vaccinate their kids and accepted vaccines for Covid. Of course, there are pockets of low uptake with predictable outcomes.

So who are these other people?
I can understand why virulent anti-vaxxers want to attract people who are worried or dissatisfied with vaccines, mandates and other PH measures. Or those who value “FREEDOM” but not freedom from infectious disease. Are they setting the scene for the next pandemic? Are they assembling a coalition of naysayers and rebels? It seems to me that much of what I read/ hear is about politics, not health, despite what the leaders call it.

What other programming goes with this agenda?

Among athletes, young black men playing basketball are at heightened risk of sudden cardiac death.

And we musk ask WHY!! Could it be the work of the diabolical Anthony Fauci? Did you know he was the captain of his high school basketball team? Described as a fierce tenacious competitor. Surely he had hoop dreams of continued stardom in college and the NBA. But, pray tell, who would have been standing in his way? Who would he have resented more than anyone in the world? Could is be young black men? Like Bronny James? Is all this sudden death some twisted form of payback? I’m just asking questions the lamestream media is too cowed to pose!!

So, can I get content creator payments from X.com now, or at least a free blue checkmark?

[/s]

It’s the counterpart of Lyons-Weiler’s “reproductive spite” – athletic spite.

@ sadmar:

You, sir, are hilarious! **
Fauci comes from Brooklyn and you know what that means! Black young men live there. Fauci in Italian means jaws or a sickle in Sicilian dialect. You know who else comes from Sicily? The Corleone family. He is 5’6″ tall; so am I. It all fits together perfectly!

** I wanted to comment about your remarks a few days ago, but got nonced twice, which were very perceptive about RFKjr re what do we call his situation- madness?
People can have features of NPD without being diagnosable. I think he has several other problems that include not being able to evaluate his own abilities and those of others. These are valuable skills that most people develop to a degree during adolescence. There’s just something wrong with him. He has a long history of problems probably mostly untreated.

When I said I don’t think Jr.’s actually an antisemite I meant that I don’t think he’s anything, other than desperate for attention within his antivax crusade. As Orac and Prof. Reiss said, he’s perfectly willing to amplify antisemitic conspiracy theories, but then there’s nothing special or unique in that. He’ll amplify any CT that feeds his upside down notions of public health efforts. That he winds up there is just a testament to Orac’s observation that antisemitism is the ur-text of conspiracy theory, so the conspiracy culture always tends to circle toward that drain.

See, I don’t think saying he’ll do ANYTHING for the clicks is soft-peddling how dangerous he is at all. I think the void at the heart there is more frightening.

Oddly, the recent article that drove this home for me was a piece from Media Matters about his ties to Sherri Tenpenny, who is apparently a major antisemite, promoting the Protocols, and whatnot. I’m kinda surprised Orac didn’t mention that, as Jr. appears to have gotten the whole bioweapon targeting the gentiles thing from her (and she having picked it up from Putinganda.) Yet, Jr. describes her as a “renowned critic of prevailing health policy,” one of the “stalwarts who are leading this movement.” The disconnect between this praise and the extremism of her antisemitism struck me as so profound I said to myself, ” that’s just insane!”

The crusade is everything. The vaccines are the whole universe. Anything is allowed in opposing them, because nothing else comes close to their significance.

When I said I don’t think Jr.’s actually an antisemite I meant that I don’t think he’s anything, other than desperate for attention within his antivax crusade. As Orac and Prof. Reiss said, he’s perfectly willing to amplify antisemitic conspiracy theories, but then there’s nothing special or unique in that. He’ll amplify any CT that feeds his upside down notions of public health efforts. That he winds up there is just a testament to Orac’s observation that antisemitism is the ur-text of conspiracy theory, so the conspiracy culture always tends to circle toward that drain.

While I can see your point and to some extent agree that RFK Jr. will amplify any conspiracy theory for attention, I would also argue something else. If you care more about conspiracy theories and the attention they bring than about racism or antisemitism, to the point where you don’t mind it if the conspiracy theories you amplify are racist and antisemitic, I suggest that that is a good indication that you harbor at least some racism and antisemitism. If you truly were not racist and/or antisemitic, the horror of saying racist and antisemitic things would outweigh whatever satisfaction you might get from the attention that comes from amplifying conspiracy theories.

Just sayin’. If Junior weren’t at least a little racist and antisemitic, he would have balked at spreading racist and antisemitic conspiracy theories. He did not.

As for Sherri Tenpenny, I was genuinely unaware that RFK Jr. appears to have gotten the “ethnically targeted bioweapon” thing from her. I might have to look into that further.

For all of RFKjr’s complaints about censorship, despite his rabid anti-vax position, he was NOT tossed off of twitter: I used to read him there all the time before Elon’s new policy about un-affiliated readers/ X. All the other anti-vaxxers were kept out.
I am not in the X loop now.

At this point, I don’t think it matters what if anything he “really” believes. I’m not his psychologist or his minister, and I care about what he says and does.

People who hear those slanders don’t stop to think “Does RFK Jr. really believe this?” They either realize that it’s false and vile, and that affects their opinion of the speaker–as it has mine and Orac’s–or they listen because they think the speaker is admirable and/or trustworthy. Whatever RFK Jr. “really” believes, he knows he has an audience, and there are people who will believe what he says.

When I said I don’t think Jr.’s actually an antisemite I meant that I don’t think he’s anything, other than desperate for attention within his antivax crusade. As Orac and Prof. Reiss said, he’s perfectly willing to amplify antisemitic conspiracy theories, but then there’s nothing special or unique in that. He’ll amplify any CT that feeds his upside down notions of public health efforts.

In other words, he’s just throwing shit at the walls and looking to see what sticks.

The sad thing about the crowd he’s wooing is that every piece of crap he throws sticks.

“People can have features of NPD without being diagnosable. I think he has several other problems that include not being able to evaluate his own abilities and those of others. These are valuable skills that most people develop to a degree during adolescence”

You guys will be far more familiar with the life story of RFK Jr than I am but, reading a precis of his life story on the internet, I can imagine him being a bit f£#ked up anyway. Two relatives assassinated, disrupted family life, the Kennedy ‘legacy’, the public attention etc etc etc.

@ NumberWang:

Of course, no one is totally responsible for their own mental condition. He did have a traumatic childhood but none of his 10 siblings make the news as much or run misinformation campaigns.

We don’t know exactly what causes personality disorders/ related conditions- or their partial embodiment- although heredity and early life experience are suspected. HOWEVER he also has great advantages because of his name- first and last- family money and fame. When he was arrested for drug possession long ago, he had to seek care to avoid legal consequences so he must at least have some insight and self-awareness.

What he says and publishes can greatly affect people’s health: it was estimated that he and one other anti-vaxxer put out a great portion of internet anti-vax material. He runs an organisation that spreads anti-SBM and sues realistic vaccine advocates/ the government. His current activity might affect the outcome of a presidential election.

If I wrote publicly telling parents to be very suspicious of vaccines because they cause autism, miscarriage and serious CVD, rational people would condemn me as going far beyond my position and education although I have a great deal more relevant background than he does.
He may not be totally responsible for how he behaves/ speaks but that doesn’t make him innocent either.

“He may not be totally responsible for how he behaves/ speaks but that doesn’t make him innocent either.”

Childhood trauma might be a reason but it’s not an excuse.

Of course he might just be a gullible twat. At least the environmental crusading was useful.

Re; not being able to read X (twitter) apparently if you put “nitter” instead of twitter in the lin to a thread you can still read theads without the recently imposed limitations. I’ve not come across anything I want to read there since discovering this, but it may be of use to you.

@ Jazzlet:

Thanks for that.
I heard about nitter from the Big Twit himself a while ago but didn’t realise it could apply. It somewhat works.
I used to read a few SB people and some alties to on twitter/ X.
I refuse to cater to balky, childish billionaires with my e-mail.
-btw- I was slightly disappointed to know that the infamous new sign will be down when I visit in a few weeks – it could be seen for miles- but I guess the city is right if it bothered residents.

Oooh. You really don’t take your fingers out of your ears do you? Out of interest, how many of those 1/35 were permanent or remotely close to life threatening?

Or for that matter, how many got a clinical diagnosis of myocarditis and had to be hospitalized?

. Twenty cases occurred in women (3.7% [95%CI, 2.3-5.7%]), two in men (0.8%[95%CI, 0.1-3.0%]). Hs-cTnT-elevations were mild and only temporary. No patient had ECGchanges, and none developed major adverse cardiac events within 30 days (0% [95%CI, 0-0.4%]).
A myocardial injury indeed.
Exercise does increase troponin levels:
https://www.jacc.org/doi/abs/10.1016/j.jacc.2010.03.037

[…] airborne virus. The Kids Online Safety Act is Still A Huge Danger to Our Rights Online Bronny James suffers a cardiac arrest, and Elon Musk amplifies the antivax “died suddenly” consp… Fox News staffer: “It is hard to talk about the Holocaust and rising anti semitism without […]

As someone who has a son,who would have been a SAD`s death,20 odd years before covid,i am dismayed by the anti vax conspiracy theorists. At 17, he kept passing out,which was intially diagnosed as epilepsy. Following my insistence,that this did not seem right,he was sent to a residential epilepsy assesment centre.Very quickly the consultant realised it was not epilepsy,but a heart problem,a tilt table induced another heart stoppage.I was told that it was likely that,had he lived alone (he planned to) he probably would have been found dead one day.He now has a pacemaker. So these thing definetly occurred in young people pre covid.I also know someone who was traumatised by his friend dropping dead at a pub table,yes it was an undiagnosed heart issue.Their use of such tragedies to boost their agendas,is disgusting.

Feeling very lucky to be fully unvaccinated and double unboosted.

Critical thinking pays!

What your really grateful is that there is another paper that ‘may’ confirm your bias.
And we all know what pays is ‘wishful thinking’, not ‘critical thinking’…

“Critical thinking pays”

Not that you know from experience though, eh Igor?

@ Igor:

I am responding because you have singled me out as being worthwhile.

Don’t you feel responsible when thousands of people read your Substack:
— when you provide misinformation about vaccines that people might accept
— or when you allow conspiracy believers a place to congregate as commenters and spread mis-information/ rumours?

Suppose a few followed your advice, rejected vaccination and got sick?
Or people became more entrenched in conspiracies and took action?

We know that places with political anti-vax had worse outcomes with Covid- less vaccines, more people got sick, infected others and died ( red states)
Also, rumours have led to dangerous actions by believers on both a small and large scale – planned attack on a DC pizza restaurant and 1/6 .

Suppose I wrote that vaccines cause autism** and Covid vaccines often kill adults**, presenting my “facts” and a few people were persuaded by my elegant prose and sublime reasoning: wouldn’t I bear at least some responsibility? Of course, no one could prove anything or sue me. The victims are adults who willingly decided to follow really bad advice.

That scenario is how alt med proselytisers/ anti-vaxxers/ rabble rousers get away with potential murder. Excite people with alluring tall tales of deceit and disaster and earn money and fame.
Do you really want to resemble that crowd of miscreants? Scaring people without basis in fact is not education or entertainment. You can do better.

** NOT true

Well, I imagine that her deep insights into the inner workings of the world at large derive from her husband who frequently interacts with many hackers, spies, special ops and mercenaries usually in safe houses, according to her latest Substack, entitled Soup.
Insider cred to be sure.

I have no idea if this comment will get through. I have been perusing this website, reading selected articles and some comments, and I have come to the conclusion that it is toxic. Rarely have I seen more ad hominem attacks, condescension aimed at anyone who disagrees with whatever idea is being put forth, and the attribution of the worst motives to anyone who disagrees. I will not be coming back.

It’s great that you had such confidence that your comment would get through, that you went to the trouble of posting it. I agree that name-calling (using terms like “toxic”) is just awful. I’m sorry that antivaxxers and the like have ruined the fun of this site for you. Frankly, I don’t enjoy reading them either, but it’s nice that Orac turns over the rocks so that normal people (is that a mean term?) keep informed about what the others are up to. He’s acting in the best tradition of Dorothy Thompson and others.

Fabulous new conspiracy theory: Obama was photographed with tape on his fingers while playing golf. Golfers do this to help with the proper club grip, but not in this case. Oh no.

You see, the photo was supposedly taken on the day Obama’s private chef disappeared (he was later found drowned). The taped fingers apparently mean Obama was injured while murdering the chef, either because he Knew Too Much, or the eggs Benedict turned out badly.

My alternate theory is that Obama accidentally cut himself slicing onions when the chef wasn’t available for kitchen duties. Strangely, that theory is getting little traction online.

@ John La Barge

You write: “How dare one question the sacred juice of The Science! We even have a derogatory term for those who would dare question it!”

Scientists have NO problem with those who question if they can include in their questions clear explanations backed by links to several legitimate papers. Just questioning based on ignorance of science, ignorance of how our immune systems works, etc. is not valid questioning, just stupid ignorant uninformed bias

@ Igor Chudov

You write: “Feeling very lucky to be fully unvaccinated and double unboosted. Critical thinking pays!”

Yep, you are lucky; but not from getting unvaccinated; but, perhaps, from not being exposed enough to get a serious illness of, perhaps, having a rare genetics that protected you. However, not proof you were NOT infected. Many who were infected remained asymptomatic; but could pass on to those who could NOT be vaccinated; e.g., infants or, perhaps, undergoing chemotherapy for cancer, or who were vaccinated; but whose immune system reacted at best weakly.

As usual, rather than resorting to science you use an anecdote. And, as usual, you comment as if you don’t live in a community with some mutual responsibility for each other.

And I remind people in a previous comment that Igor admitted he knows nothing about vaccines and viruses, etc. yet continuous to post, ignoring his own admission

Igor Chudov
says:
April 19, 2023 at 6:45 pm
Just like Orac, I find it odd that Dr Bridle wants to debate Covid vaccines with Dr Caulfield, but for a different reason.
Dr. Bridle is a viral immunologist, an expert in vaccinology and virology, and an author of dozens of related scientific studies.
Dr. Caulfield is a professor of law, with zero education pertaining to virology or vaccinology. His level of expertise in vaccines, virology and vaccinology is on par with my own. In other words, he is an amateur to the field of vaccines and viruses.

KEEP SHOWING HOW IGNORANT AND SELF-CENTERED YOU ARE

@ John La Barge

You write: “John La Bargesays:
July 27, 2023 at 1:27 pm
As would athletes that recently suffered myocardial injury from a booster (2.8% or 1/35 apparently injured). If a doctor knew about heart injury would she recommend against strenuous exercise?”

You totally ignored my previous comment where I listed numerous studies that clearly showed the risk for myocardial injury both in numbers and seriousness was much much higher from the actual virus.

You have not indicated any even basic knowledge of science, the immune system, infectious diseases, etc; yet when this is pointed out, you ignore it.

Why are you so incredibly dishonest???

An honest antivaxxer would poof into nom-existence like a round square or a four-sided triangle.

In case anyone’s wondering why the low blog output over the last couple of weeks, let’s just say that real life got in the way, specifically a grant deadline. Such is life. Things should pick up again in a couple days or by next week. My real life job takes precedence over the blog, unfortunately.

“…high dose vitamin C…”

Since the body can only accept so much vitamin C, high dose pills only cause you to literally piss money away. High doses of other vitamins causes vitamin toxicity. That’s the science that I learnt through focused research, but an anti-vaxxer will likely call me a “big pharma shill” for saying so, ironically ignorant of the fact that it’s big pharma that produces vitamin pills.

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