Cancer Entertainment/culture Medicine Popular culture Pseudoscience Quackery

Mike Adams: Why doesn’t Rush Limbaugh try “natural” treatments for his lung cancer?

Mike Adams has long used celebrities with cancer to claim “natural” treatments could cure them. Now he’s doing the same with Rush Limbaugh, although, compared to prior celebrities with cancer on whom he’s pulled this routine, this time Adams’s attack is muted.

The COVID-19 pandemic has pretty much consumed this blog since shortly after it hit US shores (and, to some extent, even a bit before). It’s not surprising, given that COVID-19 is the single largest medical disaster to have befallen the world in over 100 years, when the influenza pandemic of 1918-1919 hit. The current estimated death toll in the US alone is 220,000 and climbing rapidly. Moreover, the pandemic has provided a cornucopia of material for this blog, be it the rise of COVID-19 denial and conspiracy theories, the unholy alliance of COVID-19 deniers, antimaskers, and conspiracy theorists with the antivaccine movement (which surprised some people but didn’t much surprise those of us who’ve been following the antivaccine movement), and all the pseudoscience, promotion of unproven treatments and other quackery for coronavirus, and fusion of all of this with a conspiracy theory as utterly bonkers as QAnon. That’s even leaving aside the degradation of federal scientific and medical agencies, such as the CDC and FDA, under our current leadership. Sometimes, I just hunger for a simpler time, a time from, say, 8-9 months ago, when the pandemic was just in China and we in the US were as yet blissfully laboring under the delusion that we would be OK and it wouldn’t affect us. I sometimes just long to go back to long time topics of this blog, no matter how odd that it might sound. So, for one day at least, I will do just that. This desire leads me, oddly enough, to Rush Limbaugh, his lung cancer, and über-quack Mike Adams’ reaction to an announcement about Limbaugh’s cancer last week.

Many readers might recall that, way back in early February, as the pandemic was well into its spread from China to the rest of the world but before the you-know-what really hit the fan outside of China (and in the US in particular, you know, those halcyon days that now seem like ancient history when we could still actually believe that the US would escape the worst), Rush Limbaugh announced that he had been diagnosed with advanced lung cancer:

Right-wing radio host Rush Limbaugh said Monday that he’s been diagnosed with advanced lung cancer. “The upshot is that I have been diagnosed with advanced lung cancer. Diagnosis confirmed by two medical institutions back on January 20th,” Limbaugh told his listeners. “I thought about trying to do this without anybody knowing because I don’t like making things about me. But there are going to be days where I’m not going to be able to be here, because I’m undergoing treatment or I’m reacting to treatment… it is what it is.” Limbaugh, host of the The Rush Limbaugh Show, is one of the most popular talk-radio hosts in the U.S.—with about 15.5 million people tuning into his show.

It was a natural reaction that some of those who really don’t like Limbaugh to feel a bit of schadenfreude, given his longstanding dismissal of secondhand smoke as a risk factor for lung cancer and other tobacco-associated diseases, his downplaying the dangers of smoking while describing smoking as “cool,” and mocking celebrities with serious diseases, such as when he accused Michael J. Fox of exaggerating his symptoms of Parkinson’s disease and mocked his movements by pretending to shake uncontrollably:

Personally, having had an aunt die of lung cancer almost certainly due to her 40 years of smoking and several other family members either suffering from or dying from cancer, combined with my career as a breast cancer surgeon that’s led me to see what cancer does to people, I said nothing, and I did not gloat. Limbaugh is a horrible human being, but he is a human being, and I knew then that he was unlikely to survive very long even with the best treatment that his wealth could purchase. Nearly nine months have gone by, and facing death didn’t change Limbaugh much, if at all. Meanwhile, I paid little or no attention to him until stories like this one started popping up in the media last week:

Rush Limbaugh, the conservative talk show radio host, is battling stage 4 lung cancer and said Monday he’s had a setback in his prognosis.

“The scans did show some progression of cancer,” he told listeners of his radio show. He later added: “It’s not dramatic, but it is the wrong direction.”

The 69-year-old was diagnosed with lung cancer in February.

Limbaugh said his doctors changed his medications in “hopes of keeping additional progression at bay for as long as possible.” Prior to this week’s update, he said that cancer “had been reduced, and it had become manageable.”

“It’s tough to realize that the days where I do not think I’m under a death sentence are over,” Limbaugh said. “Now, we all are, is the point. We all know that we’re going to die at some point, but when you have a terminal disease diagnosis that has a time frame to it, then that puts a different psychological and even physical awareness to it.”

Rush Limbaugh’s statement was posted to his website a week ago. Clearly, if Limbaugh’s tumor is progressing on treatment, this is not a good sign. Of course, it’s stage 4, which means it’s gone beyond the lungs, and stage 4 lung cancer is not curable. (Even earlier stage lung cancer is very difficult to treat for long term survival.) Of course, this development is expected in stage 4 lung cancer (and, unfortunately, nearly all stage 4 solid tumors). Resistance develops and the tumor starts to grow again despite treatment. The treating oncologist will then tweak the treatment switching to second line therapy until resistance develops again, then to third line, and so on until treatment options become too toxic and unlikely to be effective or are exhausted. This, sadly, is how these cancers behave.

So why am I blogging about his now? Well, I did mention Mike Adams, and longtime readers of this blog know one thing about Mike Adams that I’ve written about him on and off since very early in the history of this blog, and that’s his tendency to glom onto the health misfortunes of celebrities either to try to “blame and shame” them for getting sick due to some lifestyle or diet flaw, real or perceived, to “lament” that they could have survived their cancer (or whatever) if only they had tried “natural remedies,” or to claim that “natural remedies” could still save them. Many are the examples, of which Rush Limbaugh is just the latest. Before I get to his ghoulish gloating about Limbaugh, let’s just take a trip down memory lane and look at some previous examples, in no particular order:

  • Tony Snow. The death of Tony Snow, President George W. Bush’s former press secretary, in 2008 of metastatic colorectal cancer was the first time I noticed Adams ghoulish tendency to attack dead and dying celebrities to promote “alternative” medicine. At the time, Adams gloated, prefacing his gloat by mentioning “actor Heath Ledger’s death following the consumption of doctor-prescribed medications,” CNBC anchor Tim Russert’s “death while on cardiovascular medications,” and Anna Nicole Smith’s “death caused by a lethal combination of FDA-approved prescription medications,” as if the comparisons were in any way relevant to Tony Snow’s death from stage IV colorectal cancer. Adopting a stance of faux sympathy, Adams opined that for “reasons we will never know, Tony Snow chose the chemotherapy route in an attempt to treat his colon cancer, subjecting his body to systemic poisons that all the evidence shows produce absolutely no improvement in the five-year survival rate of colon cancer patients” (not true, by the way) and asserted that Snow “was apparently unaware that colon cancer is rather easily cured with plant-based medicines” and that, had he “adopted a raw, vegan diet and engaged in high-volume vegetable juicing immediately upon learning of his colon cancer diagnosis, I have no doubt he would still be alive today.”
  • Patrick Swayze. As you might recall, Patrick Swayze died of pancreatic cancer in 2009. Of note, Swayze earned the ire of cancer quacks everywhere by being very realistic about his impending demise and then slapping down cancer quacks, by saying in an interview with Barbara Walters, “If anybody had that cure out there, like so many people swear they do, you’d be two things. You’d be very rich, and you’d be very famous. Otherwise, shut up.” After Swayze succumbed to his disease, Adams again put on his faux oh-so-sad demeanor, asking the question whether Swayze could have saved his own life with “natural therapies” thusly, “Absolutely. Without question. Even late-stage pancreatic cancer can be reversed (yes, reversed) with full-on naturopathic treatments involving Chinese herbal medicine, deep body detoxification that includes sweat saunas and colon cleansing, radical changes in diet from ‘dead’ foods to ‘live’ foods, a healthy dose of vitamin D and the daily consumption of raw anti-cancer living juices made from fresh, organic produce like cabbage, broccoli and garlic.” In particular, he added this howler: “I’ve never met a person who was cured of cancer with chemotherapy. Not a single one. Never even heard of such a person. They don’t exist.” (Lance Armstrong and many others might beg to differ.)
  • Christina Applegate. Christina Applegate, you might recall, developed breast cancer and opted to undergo bilateral mastectomy, the removal of both breasts, because she also tested positive for a deleterious mutation in BRCA1 that produced a very high lifetime risk of breast cancer for her in the other breast. Opining over her “maimed” body, Adams then claimed that “by surgically removing Christina Applegate’s breasts, cancer surgeons have misled her into thinking she’s cured, when in reality, she now has the exact same risk of cancer coming back as she did before the surgery,” which is absolutely not true.
  • Elizabeth Edwards. The wife of presidential candidate John Edwards, Elizabeth Edwards died of metastatic breast cancer in 2010. In response, Adams ranted that “cancer doctors destroyed Elizabeth’s health for six years and then abandoned her, saying that ‘further treatment would be unproductive, adding that this “is how conventional cancer doctors operate: They poison your body, take your money, and when it turns out they’ve nearly killed you, they just stop treating you and tell you to go home and die,” adding that there “there are many cures for cancer” but that, rather than curing patients, “traditional oncologists poison them with deadly chemicals and call it ‘treatment.'”
  • Farrah Fawcett. Farrah Fawcett, many will recall, died of anal cancer in 2009. She was an interesting case for Adams to attack because it had been widely reported at the time of her death that she had used “holistic therapy” and had gone to a “holistic” German cancer clinic for “galvanotherapy,” chemoembolization, and “immune-boosting vitamins”. She died anyway. (Funny how Adams didn’t mention that. She’d even made a documentary about it.) None of this stopped Adams from writing that, against the “advice of many in the natural health community, Fawcett gave in to her doctors and agreed to be poisoned as a treatment for anal cancer” and that, had “she chosen natural remedies, she could have skipped all the pain and suffering, restored her immune function, reversed her cancer and gone on to live a much longer and more abundant life.” (But she did choose some natural remedies.)
  • Beau Biden. It’s hard not to know that Joe Biden’s son Beau died of brain cancer at a much too young age in 2015. Given the timing and a father’s grief, Beau Biden’s death was a major reason that Joe Biden chose not to run for President in 2016. Shortly after Beau Biden’s death, Adams blamed his cancer on chemotherapy and—of course!—glyphosate, concluding that “Beau Biden, like hundreds of thousands of other Americans each year, was killed by a combination of chemotherapy, radiation and glyphosate.”
  • David Bowie and Alan Rickman. David Bowie (my all time favorite musician) and actor Alan Rickman both died in January 2016, Bowie of liver cancer, and Rickman of pancreatic cancer. Adams, being the ghoul that he is, responded, “When people like David Bowie and Alan Rickman die from cancer, it’s because the cancer industry withheld livesaving information from them about cancer prevention, anti-cancer foods, vitamin D supplementation, avoidance of toxic chemicals and other crucial information that can save lives.”

Of course, Mike Adams isn’t the only one who pulls this “if only this celebrity with cancer had chosen ‘natural’ treatments he might be alive” routine. Cancer quack Nicholas Gonzalez did it too, when he he oh-so-sadly claimed this about Steve Jobs, who died of neuroendocrine cancer of the pancreas:

He wanted to see an alternative. In fact when he was first diagnosed, he got some dietary program – again, he was very secretive of that – So I don’t exactly know what he did at that point. But through his acupuncturist, there was communication. He was getting acupuncture, and he was doing some alternative things as far as I know. This acupuncturist actually talked to me, discussing the situation. She was really anxious for him to come and see me. But he chose not to do that.

You know, I always respect the patients’ right to choose the therapy they want to choose, so I would never dispute that. The patients have to make the decisions based on what they want to do. But she was very adamant; in fact, she knew about all my works in the alternative world. He had seen alternative-type practitioners. She really wanted for him to come and see me. He chose not to do that. From my perspective, it was unfortunate, because he was such a gift to the world in terms of his inventions and genius in the past 30 years.

Conveniently, Gonzalez’s story was completely unverifiable.

It’s been a while since I paid attention to one of Adams’ exercises in ghoulish grifting over the bodies, living or dead, of celebrities with cancer and other serious diseases, but for some reason his latest exercise about Rush Limbaugh caught my attention. I suppose that it surprised me that, given Adams’ penchant for Trumpist right wing conspiracy theories and his general alignment with Trump and right wing conspiracy politics, he’d actually pull the same shtick with Rush Limbaugh, but pull the same shtick he did last week. Well, actually, Adams didn’t do it personally. Maybe his alignment with Rush Limbaugh-style politics is why Adams outsourced the slime job to his lackey Ethan Huff:

Despite undergoing aggressive treatment regimens at the hands of conventional cancer “experts,” Limbaugh’s stage 4 lung cancer went terminal.

And, later:

In other words, Limbaugh believes in conventional cancer doctors, apparently unaware of the fact that there are alternative methods of treating cancer that, unlike chemotherapy, do not accelerate the degression towards death.

I can’t help but note that stage 4 lung cancer doesn’t “go terminal.” It is terminal, by which I mean that it is not curable. It wasn’t curable in February, and it isn’t curable now. Existing treatments for stage 4 lung cancer are palliative, designed to slow the progression of the cancer, prolonging survival while maximizing quality of life. On rare occasions, a patient with stage 4 lung cancer might live an unexpectedly long time, several years, but, by and large, such occurrences are quite rare. Moreover, in the case of stage 4 lung cancer, it is not at all surprising that, nearly nine months later, his first line treatment has reached the end of its effectiveness and his cancer has started to grow again. That doesn’t stop Huff from channeling his boss:

According to Limbaugh, his latest scans shows “some progression of cancer,” meaning the chemotherapy he has been receiving is not exactly working as planned. Prior to this, scans had shown that Limbaugh’s cancer had turned “dormant.” Something changed, in other words, which is often the case when a patient is receiving toxic doses of chemotherapy, a systemic poison that ruthlessly destroys healthy cells alongside the malignant ones. Perplexed that his cancer at first appeared to go dormant, only to later start growing again, Limbaugh has now arrived at the flawed conclusion that cancer “eventually outsmarts pretty much everything you throw at it,” which is simply untrue (and demonstrates his ignorance of fundamental human health and natural medicine). It is often true, however, for those who rely exclusively on conventional cancer treatments like chemotherapy and radiation that ravage the immune system and, in many cases, lead to worse outcomes in the end.

Actually, it’s hard not to notice that Huff’s version of an Adams ghoulish gloat is much less ranty and way more…civil-sounding, as he continues:

While we feel for Limbaugh and hope for a miraculous recovery, the truth of the matter is that he needs to learn quickly that the conventional cancer treatment road is a dead end that for most people leads to early death. For someone who knows full well the corruption of Democrat Party, Limbaugh would seem to be almost clueless about the corruption of Big Pharma, which profits immensely from cases like his where the patient receives round after round of expensive drug treatments, only to come up short in the end.

Interestingly, nowhere to be found is the usual victim blaming that Adams loves to engage in, in which, as he claimed for Patrick Swayze for example, many people, of course, aren’t willing to engage in these lifestyle changes in order to save their own lives, but for those who are, the results are astounding.” Funny how Huff/Adams don’t try to shame Limbaugh for his lifestyle choices, his smoking, and the like.

They do, however, continue Adams’ longstanding pattern of trying to use celebrities with cancer in the service of their grift by claiming that they could still be saved with “natural therapies.” Even in the age of the COVID-19 pandemic, some things never change. Grifters gonna grift, and despicable grifters like Mike Adams will use any excuse to grift.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

198 replies on “Mike Adams: Why doesn’t Rush Limbaugh try “natural” treatments for his lung cancer?”

Happily, I am aligned with the “Democrat” party– and tend to have faith in the government agencies that regulate public health efforts– and stopped smoking when the first warnings were issued (only four years after I started smoking, thankfully).

What is with these people’s refusal to use the gramatically correct form of democrat?

A lack of empathy is one of the biggest problems in our crazy society. Like you, I have never liked Rush Limbaugh and have never been a listener, but I am not gloating over his medical problems. I have had basal cell carcinoma, which may be the least noxious cancer (30 minutes of surgery and it was gone), and so I sympathize with anyone having worse problems. As a friend of mine who died of pancreatic cancer said, “fuck cancer!”

I do recommend as a potentially more credible “alternative” voice Paul Stamets of Fungi Perfecti. His elderly mom had stage 4 breast cancer, given 3 months to live by her doctors. She had chemo treatment but also turkey tail mushrooms (combination of approaches) and that seemingly put her into remission. I think she is still alive, years later. I realize one (or a few) cases is not the same as a large scale study, but there seems to be some credibility to this claim. I’m not a doctor and don’t play one on TV nor the internet.

I appreciate your site’s debunking of covid disinformation, thank you for your service.

@ Mark Robinowitz:

You sound as if you have good intentions and care about people’s welfare:
I survey alt med/ anti-vax/ CTs since 2000 and in the 1990s, I started with Natural Health topics and New Age beliefs:
I have heard about mushrooms like Turkey Tail over those years- even having a book detailing natural medicines including these products- have interacted with believers at RI and read about potential trials. YET no one has done good research to support the claims made about them. I would think that there would be some hint at their efficacy by now.

Treatment with supplements or foods sounds potentially harmless because they are not poisonous- in most cases- BUT if people try them and then delay treatments that have actual scientific research backing them, the delay itself may prove harmful because their illness progressed while they tried “natural” treatment..,

Read again. His mom got BOTH chemo and turkey tail. I acknowledge it is anecdotal and not a scientific study. Some alternative claims are clearly ridiculous but there are some probably worthy of rigorous study. Stamets also says he has done some antiviral studies for the Pentagon that found some useful species but I haven’t read those reports.

It’s not just the delaying of effective treatment, or stealing all the credit while real medicine does all the work. Quack potions can interfere with the real treatments too.

@ Mark Robinowitz:

I did read what you wrote:
in general, people may eschew SBM because they think the natural stuff will work
— –about Turkey Tail ( and other Asian mushrooms for cancer like Reishi) there have been suggestions about them since the 1990s that I know ( that book was 1994) BUT nothing ever advanced much- I’ve heard about proposed research at Sloan Kettering 10 years ago ( a guy used them for stage 4 colon cancer and wrote about it here at RI so I looked for it) and some research about prostate cancer. No big news.
. .
In research, if something proves possibly useful and there are ideas about a potential mechanism of action, scientists will jump on board, trying to get funding and be the one to discover an important therapy or basic facts. But we don’t see that.,

— There have been studies that look at how chemotherapy works with supplements like vitamin C. Research can compare more than one treatment simultaneously and compare to Chemo alone. There may be slight possibility with some nutrients helping ( not my area but Orac would know better and tell us) but nothing earth shattering..

Think about Covid: many possible avenues of inquiry have been tried out – and it’s not even a year that we know of it yet!- some discarded, some continued. It would be great if a simple, inexpensive food or nutrient, alone or in combination, would help cancer patients. BUT we don’t find much that proves really decisive.. Unfortunately.. .

Here’s something:
see Trametes versicolor Wikipedia
research on 3 forms of cancer – nothing clear by 2016

I sorely doubt that the Turkey Tails did anything, but I’m reminded that I do have a Fungi Perfecti catalog in a box somewhere. Fun browsing.

About that ” unholy alliance”

AoA is predictably upset that, in Congressman Malinowski’s HR 1154, anti-vax is named as a CT along with alien landings and 911 Truth as foci of QAnon.

I LOLed. And then I read the comments. It is hard to know who is in the Gold medal position for stupidest comment.

I did enjoy Cia Parker’s admission that she didn’t know what an mRNA vaccine was, looked it up, but could understand anything she read until she got to Natural News.

Adams also spilled some pixels lamenting the fate of Angelina Jolie’s breasts. The guy is creepy in the extreme.

A friend of mine survived breast cancer, and guys lamenting breast tissue is one of her top irritations resulting from it, along with the color pink.

I just noticed last night that it didn’t feel like the entire month of October was covered in pink ribbons. I can’t tell if that’s because all the chronic disease awareness folks have let COVID take the airtime/money or if I’ve just not been out enough to notice the ribbons.
The only time I’ve talked about breast cancer all month was celebrating my aunt’s 10 years of remission.

Mr. Limbaugh doesn’t have to worry about his cancer. “Christian Prophet” Lance Wallnau claims Limbaugh was cursed by witches. The 20 million people* praying for him aren’t praying hard enough or doing it wrong or some such.

So Wallnau prayed for Rush Limbaugh. The prayer gets a bit weird in places. I’m not going to take up space quoting it; Wonkette has a good write-up.

Ugh. The 20 million people* should have a footnote:

*I guess 20 million are the number of people who listen to Mr. Limbaugh. Maybe their prayers would work better if they synchronized their watches and prayed at the same time?

He then moves on to how he also wants God/Jesus to protect Dan Bongino and Tucker Carlson and Sean Hannity and a bunch of other people, and then finally announces that he’s reversing the curse on Rush’s body.

I wonder how much he’s paying Dr. Demon Semen, Stella Immanuel, to keep their secret, nasty, totally technically consentual sex-like stuff out of the press conferences through NDA??

Rush Limbaugh – smoker of cigars, one-time opioid addict, user of “dietary supplements” containing stimulants, and consumer of “blue M&Ms” – seems unlikely to embrace natural remedies.

Like Orac, Rush Limbaugh is brilliant at what he does and I admire both for speaking/writing what’s on their mind.

@ Orac’s minions and friends,

Here’s a quick peak at MJD’s next medical paper on stage IV cancer:

Cancer Immunotherapy; Forced Atopy and Nutritional Immunology


Cancerous cells often have atypical nutrient requirements compared to non-cancerous cells. Metastatic cells spread throughout the body; unrestrained, these cancer cells form secondary tumors that aggressively proliferate and cause death. Forced atopy (i.e., many allergies) is cancer immunotherapy designed to “starve” cancer cells through immune-metabolic interference. This review discusses advances in nutritional immunology intended to enhance forced atopy as cancer immunotherapy.

Any comments?

It’s not in PubMed so I can’t read it.

Oh, it’s your paper.

No, no comments because there’s nothing to comment on with that tiny abstract. Though it isn’t anything I’ve heard about in the cancer immunotherapy circles.

the Nordic journal of reindeer husbandry

Err, is this a journal publishing ads from lonely ungulates? Asking for a friend.

(goes fetch a dictionary and looks up “husbandry”)

Oh! Never mind.

A Møøse once bit my sister…

No realli! She was Karving her initials on the møøse with the sharpened end of an interspace tøøthbrush given her by Svenge—her brother-in-law—an Oslo dentist and star of many Norwegian møvies: “The Høt Hands of an Oslo Dentist”, “Fillings of Passion”, “The Huge Mølars of Horst Nordfink”…

Mynd you, møøse bites Kan be pretti nasti…

“Rush Limbaugh is brilliant at what he does and I admire both for speaking/writing what’s on their mind.”

The guy is, and always has been, a professional spinster, gaslighter, liar by omission (and sometimes just plain blatant liar*), just a pure GOP hack.

So, if that was the sentiment you were going for then I agree that he is brilliant at what he does — he has sucked in and damned alotta political souls, young and old, over better than thirty years.

I got in the ‘front door’ with Limbaugh when he started off on television. I hated the man (probably because of something he said about pot smokers — I don’t remember) and quickly glommed onto the conspiracy theory that the Masonic globe&anchor displayed prominently on his bookshelf backdrop was totally nefarious.

I catch about an hour or so, most days as a sort of Denice Walterian survey of this one particular huckster. I know what he is going to say, I know how he is going to spin, I know that when he says “folks, let me tell you about the science…” that I need to get to the next light quick because irresistible massive facepalm is unsafe at highway speeds.

RUSH: Okay, wait for it, wait for it. You’re gonna love this. Folks, you’re absolutely going to love this. Well, wait. Maybe some of you won’t love this. Let me speak for myself. I love this. You know that magical serum that was given to two white Americans suffering from Ebola? You know what the magic ingredient is? Nicotine.

But he was basically the only talk radio on when I was at university so I would give him a listen while waiting for class — dad loved him an he’d never be wrong. Right?? Besides, he was bashing the Clintons and that’s always a hoot.

But then came the Waco Massacre in 1993 where he went so far as to praise Janet Reno over the slaughter and then *promulgated the lie that non pyrotechnic meant non flammable when, in fact, it means no fire method as in “don’t use anything to cause a spark to disperse this stuff because the CS powder was highly flammable”. {side note: at the hearings, a firefighter was about to address a question as to “the fire plan” when Schumer quickly ended the session. — The ‘plan’ was not to put out the fire because burning CS+water –> hydrogen cyanide. It never got revealed at the hearings}

I’ve felt bad that he is dying all summer but, if I’m being honest, probably more in the spirit of Hemingway.

“.. as a sort of Denice Walterian survey…”

Ha ha! I laughed when I saw that.
Actually, as you probably already know, it is remarkably easy to plow through interminable piles of bullshit as long as you have on adequate boots ; it can be argued that reading or hearing abhorrent imbroglios of lies may be unsavoury BUT if you refer back to SB material, you will remain untainted by the muck and mire..


“it is remarkably easy to plow through interminable piles of bullshit”

No, as one who has been 3/4 the way up his literal hip waders trudging through ‘intermidable piles of bullshit’ in fathomless muck and mire, it is not always ‘easy’. Sometimes one lacks the physical strength to keep giving it the ol’ college try and gets stuck. The only thing to do is wait for rain to thin it out a little.

Metaphorically speaking, when they drill it over and over that the ‘muck’ you’re trudging through is the ‘majority’… well, it gets taxing. Also, I hate it when I have to pee in these things.

Perhaps some sort of hydrophobic snow shoes would be better foot attire for such dirty work.

There are superior papers from semi-feral cats who have the good sense to not write any.

Hannibal the completely black half Siamese agrees with you. But you might have to feed him first.


I would have to read the paper.

We all know Cancer sucks up sugar and nutrients like an addict, that is the basis of feeding poison to the body hoping it kills the cancer before it kills the patient.

But I do not see how allergies and increased inflammation would slow cancer growth.

I mean, increased prevalence of allergies and increased increase in breast cancer has been observed.

What the? The “poison” you’re feeding to the body has nothing to do whatsoever with nutrients or sugar. In the most basic terms it works by targeting rapidly-dividing cells.

“nothing to do whatsoever with nutrients or sugar.”

Actually, I’ve heard tell that one should not take folate with certain chemo (even though it makes one feel better) because that is the pathway being attacked by the ‘poison’. Same with vita C, wouldn’t want to protect that thing from oxidation, now would we??

We all know Cancer sucks up sugar and nutrients like an addict, that is the basis of feeding poison to the body hoping it kills the cancer before it kills the patient.

I strained a muscle with all the eye-rolling there.

I think we can add cancer to the list of things that you don’t understand the first thing about.


When I wrote “sucks sugar and nutrients like an addict” I was referring to the higher metabolism rate of Cancer cells which is about twice as fast as most normal cells in the human body.

This is the basis for using chemotherapy to kill cancer cells. Are you sure you work in Medicine? You should have understood what I was referring to.

In fact the need for sugar in Cancer cells is so high, it is about 200 times greater than other cells. So restricting carbohydrates can possibly help slow tumor growth……..


Look at my response I wrote to the MedicalYeti, but if you do not want to read this……

You know I know most of you guys commenting, I mean one does not know woke can kill veins due to pH, and you know nothing about the sugar requirements if cancer cells. If you do not bother looking at the link…Cancer cells require 200 times more sugar than regular cells.

I suggest you check the facts before commenting on what I write, to make sure you know what you THINK you know.

@Aelxa Check clinical trials for keto diet and glioblastoma. None of them have returned any results. There is one attempt, KEATING that was stopped because did not want to continue. They would have continued, if there would have been some results, for sure.

There is one attempt:
Martin-McGill KJ, Marson AG, Tudur Smith C, Young B, Mills SJ, Cherry MG, Jenkinson MD. Ketogenic diets as an adjuvant therapy for glioblastoma (KEATING): a randomized, mixed methods, feasibility study. Neurooncol. 2020 Mar;147(1):213-227. doi: 10.1007/s11060-020-03417-8. Epub 2020 Feb 8. PMID: 32036576; PMCID: PMC7076054.
Problem was that patients hated it. (They dropped out from the trial.) Of course, this would not happened ketogenic diet has really helped.

@ MJD,

I think it’s an interesting frontier for cancer research. A quick Google search yields many results in this area on Google Scholar.

You have been underestimated here & it’s entirely THEIR loss.

Preying on cancer victims isn’t just being a grifter, it’s being a ghoul. Cancer sucks, and the people who take advantage of its victims are worse.

Thank you for calling this out.

“To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticize” — Kevin Alfred Strom (white nationalist)

We need to rise up against children with leukemia.

My husband died of Agent Orange Lung Cancer, so I know how awful it can be.

Lung Cancer could not have happened to a more deserving person than Rush. Now he gets to see what the people he made fun of experienced. Just desserts.

There’s an incredibly irony that Mr. Limbaugh avails himself of the best science-based health care in the US yet has won’t encourage his audience to wear something as simple and protective as a face covering/mask in the middle of this pandemic.

Rush is 69 years old. He probably got the sv40 contaminated polio vaccine. I wonder if he has mesothelioma.

I remember when the Shark Cartilage thing really took off. Unfortunately it only helps when applied directly to the tumor; taking it orally doesn’t do much.

“He probably got the sv40 contaminated polio vaccine. I wonder if he has mesothelioma.”

Wonder if Christine has Chronic Brain Cramp Syndrome. It couldn’t be that Rush got lung cancer because of long-term smoking. Gotta be the vaccine!*

““(Smoking) takes 50 years to kill people, if it does,” (Limbaugh said in 2015). “Not everybody that smokes gets cancer. Now, it’s true that everybody who smokes dies, but so does everyone who eats carrots.”

Limbaugh went on to ask why the government didn’t ban tobacco if it was so dangerous before claiming the society had vilified smokers, even though “their purchases are funding children’s health care programs.”

“I would like a medal for smoking cigars, is what I’m saying,” Limbaugh added…

“I’ve never seen Cause of death: Tobacco products. Not everybody who smokes gets cancer.”

*or maybe Rush ate too many carrots. 🙁

Limbaugh went on to ask why the government didn’t ban tobacco if it was so dangerous

Especially since the ban worked so well with alcohol and cannabis.

The ads on late-night cable tell me that Mesothelioma comes from working either in mines or for Navy shipyards, and here’s how to get the money that’s owed to me for my suffering.

Obviously, Mesothelioma is caused by asbestos (which still hasn’t been banned because industry wins over the EPA and basic safety), usually from working with asbestos in a professional capacity.

Did Limbaugh work in a shipyard as a young man? Or in a mine?

Or did he smoke tobacco for years, which is known to greatly increase the risk of lung cancer?

Why make things up when the truth is more meaningful?

@ Christopher Hickie,

Mesothelioma affects the lungs because the tumors grow into the lining of the lungs. It can also grow into the outside linings of the GI system & heart as well but patients who have the tumors on their lungs DO say “I have lung cancer”.

I can’t actually find any reference to what type Rush has but he’s a Boomer; he may have been exposed to SV40 & SV40 Mesothelioma can have a latency period of up to 60 years, so it’s possible he could have it.

I’m fairly certain Mr. Limbaugh would not survive having his lungs removed to be rubbed with shark cartilage. Or having it injected into each and every one of his tumors.

And anyway, it doesn’t matter because sharks are a group of endangered species that shouldn’t be killed to provide an ineffective treatment.

(Why’s it got to be from sharks? No reason except it sounds cool.)

Sharks Don’t Get Cancer* (subtitle: How Shark Cartilage Could Save Your Life't_Get_Cancer

It’s thought to be anti-angiogenic in solid tumors.

An estimate by the conservation group Shark Allies suggested that as many as 550,000 sharks may be harvested in order to create enough COVID-19 vaccines to distribute globally. Some vaccine candidates would require squalene, but how much is needed also depends on which vaccines move forward in clinical testing.

*except when they do

@ JustaTech:

There was/ is an old myth that sharks don’t get cancer ( not true) and books about it as well as products ( an internet search shows loads of them). Ideas like these are promoted by alt med people and persist for decades despite a lack of evidence.

@ DB, TBruce, Chris H,

I hope that one of you would discuss CK’s remarks about shark cartilage so that uninformed readers might not think that there is any substance to it.
Oh, wait! You guys, Orac and Yeti are ONLY doctors so how could you possibly correct her!

@Denice, all I can think of in response to her claim is “HeadOn. Apply directly to the forehead.”

Tangential: “Head On” is an excellent near-future police procedural by John Scalzi in a world where a substantial portion of people have locked-in syndrome and how everyone copes with that.
Highly recommend.

For anyone thinking of picking up the book, be aware that it’s a sequel. The first one is Lock In. He also does some subtle, but very interesting, things with gender in those books.

@ Orac’s minions:

Could someone else please explain what that link says and means?
I am done with both of them.

I expect that swimming with sharks (especially Great Whites) would result in a quick and permanent end to cancer.

There are plenty of nature shows depicting people ‘swimming with’ and even petting Great Whites. Though they are credited with most documented attacks (except mass attacks at ship trouble killing 8 or 9 hundred of a thousand and those schools of sharks are not GWs), they are not that ‘aggresive’. The trouble is that they are test biters/tasters and people on the surface of the water and not down ‘swimming with’ them sometimes get sampled. Pet’em all you want so long as your buddy is not up above chumming for shits and giggles.

It’s the bull sharks that seem to have a perpetual pilot fish stuck up their hole just in front of the turd-cutter fin and, to some extent, tiger sharks — both like shallow water and tidal rivers and will not hesitate to gang up on an inquisitive cancer patient.

I don’t think they would be doing that in even mildy turbid waters. {Hi, Narad; glad to see you weren’t swept under by a gloppy street sweeper after all.}

they are test biters/tasters

I read a book on this, a long time ago. The author advanced that in most cases, the shark is spitting back the bit it carved out of the swimmer. It was expecting seal and got long pig.
It doesn’t help that, by throwing our organic waste from our boats, we are conditioning sharks to expect tasty stuff falling from boats.

Also, Great Whites love to have a peek above water and see what’s going on.

Yes, Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer has it on their website,applying shark cartilage directly to the tumor will work to kill it.

Gosh Aelxa, I wonder why the SK website says this, then, if things like shark cartilage are so effective?

This Web site is not to be used as a substitute for medical advice, diagnosis or treatment of any health condition or problem. Users of this Web site should not rely on information provided on this Web site for their own health problems.

They don’t say that shark cartilage works in people, either.

This action, called anti-angiogenesis, was seen when shark cartilage was directly applied to tumors in a test tube. However, when these extracts were given by mouth (how all over-the-counter shark cartilage supplements are taken), no anti-tumor effect occurred in mice or in humans. A purified shark cartilage product called Neovastat (AE-941) can reduce tumor size in animals.


Gosh, Alison, the point is that Kristine wrote that shark cartilage would only work if the patient was cut open and the shark cartilage applied directly to the tumor, and that no one would do that. She wrote it was not effective taken orally.

Then a bunch of winers jumped in claiming it was lies and BS.

And I find that a Major Cancer Center says the same thing. The caution not to use what is written there instead of medical advice, does not invalidate the fact that shark cartilage applied to tumors, was found to kill the tumors in studies.

Do you have problems comprehending what is written, or do you just like writing bs? Was it a good opportunity to pitch in with your two cents and get “bravo”s from the bully gang? Well, congratulations you appear to be one of the bullys. Hope that satisfies your need for awhile.

Turns out that oceanic whitetips are thought to be responsible for the bulk of the attacks after the sinking of the USS Indianapolis.

Vide Quint, captain.


Yeah. They gang up. Injured or menstrating libtards in the water and… well… You can stab a white-tip in the eye or punch his nose all you want, you’re still fucked ’cause his buddy is right behind. Whilst I mostly only know about sharks in the waters I swam in (gulf of mexico), we’ve all heard the stories of those ‘frenzies’. Those numbers are not officially documented because ‘classified missions’.

@ Denice,

Get a f’n grip & don’t misrepresent me like that. I don’t endorse Shark cartilage for cancer; I simply brought it up because it’s one of those “alternative” treatments for cancer & one that I actually blame for some very optimistic patient’s deaths.

You know damn well I will fight to defend what I believe in here, so you are picking the wrong fight with the wrong person, because I will NEVER defend it at a treatment alternative.

I don’t know what you were doing in the 90’s but what I was doing involved preforming post mortem care on a patient that put all their faith in shark cartilage & died, some within a few months of diagnosis, while their young surviving family grieved in the hallway. Don’t even go there. You don’t know jack about it.

Readers see”

11:53 am
“ only helps when applied directly to the tumor..”

“I don’t know what you were doing in the 90’s but what I was doing involved preforming post mortem care on a patient”

Make any good post-mortem diagnoses based on smell?

some within a few months of diagnosis

“Some”? How loaded were you when you tossed this word salad? It took you “the 90’s” to perform a single paraprofessional-level task?

No point trying, Denise. The oncologist(s) would not have told Limbaugh he had lung cancer if he had mesothelioma…they would have told him he had mesothelioma, which is only caused by asbestos exposure, and you can be certain that if Limbaugh could peg his cancer to some specfic cause outside of tobacco use, he would. And shark cartilege is just a stupid concept, plus it just adds to the carnage of these beautiful amazing animals who are already overhunted for their fins to make soup. I used to scuba dive 25 years ago and saw sharks (nothing over 5-6 feet) at times, which is way more amazing in their backyard than at an aquarium.

I know: she’s unreachable. She put out misinformation that shark cartilage only works if used topically so I couldn’t let her mislead unsophisticated readers. Actually, I would prefer not to interact with her and Aelxa at all because they sicken me- supposedly educated women who push their own brands of anti-vax and pseudoscience at a sceptic’s site. They cherish the misguided notion that they are “teaching” people something and winning arguments: no, most of this was settled long ago.
Especially about vaccines causing autism. SIDS.. .

About shark fin soup: I understand that creative chefs now have alternatives that substitute noodles or other foods for the fin but I doubt that that will please the woo-believers who value its “medicinal” qualities ( non-existent)

The saddest part to me is that she cares more about being right than actually making the lives of people with disabilities better. Even if we lived in alternate universe where there was an actual conspiracy around vaccines, anxtivaxxers would be pissing away their efforts to “help” a small minority within a minority.

~20% of the population qualifies as disabled and about half are considered seriously disabled. Most of that can be traced back to things like genetics, trauma and just plain getting old. Imagine if efforts to get full funding for accessibility and special education services got the kind of turn out antivax efforts do.

But that would require antivaxxers to care about the disability community. They only care to the extent they can figure out how to blame vaccines.

@ Terrie:

You’re right. With the amount of time she and Aelxa spend scoffing**, they could take on-line Special Education courses or in a related field and actually apply that and help their own children but that would involve realising that they don’t know everything and that experts do.
My friend moved out of the area to a city with less adequate education and learned after a year that her 2nd grade son couldn’t read as well as he should and was terribly anxious in class so she worked with him based on her own studies/ experience in Special Ed and Speech Correction. Over her career she worked with kids with ASD, ID, EFL/ ESL, LD, SMI ( teens) , reading/ speech issues. People study these issues and solve problems
**I wash my hands of these women. Let someone else correct them…


Why don’t you do us a favor and stop making nasty comments regarding our Autistic children.

My son is 28 y.o. now and I still work with him using the newest processes as they come out. Your remarks saying we are unknowlegeable regarding rehabilitation for Autism is laughable from someone who knows nothing dealing with Autism in daily life, and has no contact with those with Autism.

And your fake concern about our kids is just a reason to make nasty comments, so why in don’t you save the space and keep them to yourself, instead of reiterating the same line every week or so.

If you care about kids with Autism and how they are being treated, why don’t you donate time to take care of a child with Autism, so the parents can get a break from their 24/7 childcare? That would be constructive use of your time, instead of your flapping in the wind.


I do not engage in “scoffing” of vaccines.

I plainly say there are some vaccines I will not take because of ingredients and poor manufacting practices.

And I will not take any experimental vaccines, I am not a guinea pig for sale.

All vaccines should not be given a blanket free ride to make money for corporations who are free of any legal consequences. So I will continue saying so.

There are people who deal with vaccines and vaccine development who are concerned how looser and for manufacturers are being allowed to be with COVID-19 vaccines,in development……

Your view that any criticism of vaccines makes one an “antivaxxer” is ridiculous and ignorant, especially when people in medicine dealing with the actual vaccine process are upset with the 2 month limit on testing and other shortcuts being taken.

I am not a guinea pig for sale.

Are you familiar with the term “by proxy”?

I still work with him using the newest processes as they come out

@Aelxa Where did you get idea that vaccines get “blanket free approval” ? There is FDA approving process involved, including clinical trials.
Saying such things makes you an antivaxxer.


Can you try to read correctly?

I wrote “vaccines should not have a blanket free RIDE to make money for corporations who are free of any legal consequences”…….that was in reference to the fact corporations can not be sued for deaths or disability caused by vaccines. It had nothing to do with what you made up.

You can not even find the tree to grab a fact from it correctly. Read and quote carefully next time, then comment.

@Aelxa There is actually Vaccine Court. In case of a table injury, compensation is paid when there is a temporal relationship, no causation is needed. Lagal cost are paid, too.
Otherwise, you must show probability. Autism Omnibus went bad for petitioners, because they believed Mr Wakefield’s BS.

@ JustaTech,

Asbestos exposure + smoking exposure = high risk. SV40 exposure + smoking = high risk. SV40 exposure alone + moderate risk. SV40 exposure + asbestos exposure + smoking = extremely high risk.

Those ambulance chaser ads you see are not an accident. With Mesothelioma having a 60 year latency period from time of exposure; attorney’s KNEW there was going to be a boom of, well; Boomers, who got the contaminated vaccine aging into the cancer between 2005-2015.

“Back in October 2009, the keyword ‘mesothelioma’ was the most expensive keyword in paid search, costing an average of $99.44 per click, according to Kantar Media data.”

Hunny Bunny, mesothelioma litigation has been going on since I worked at a very large law firm (the last name rhymes with ‘floam’), which occupied several years of my life a quarter-century ago.

Analysis of the SV40 sequences in mesotheliomas showed that the viral DNA was derived from a laboratory strain which contains a gap that is not present in the wild type viral genome.

Case closed.

Medical Yeti,

"Analysis of the SV40 sequences in mesotheliomas showed that the viral DNA
was derived from a laboratory strain which contains a gap that is not present in
the wild type viral genome."

That is absolutely false.

“Sequence analysis of the regulatory region of SV40 DNA in human brain tumors showed that the enhancer region contained single 72-basepair elements (simple or archetypal structure), in contrast to laboratory strains of SV40 which contain rearranged, complex regulatory regions. Importantly, a study of commercial oral poliovaccines from 1955 detected the presence of SV40 and found that the contaminating SV40 contained simple regulatory regions with single 72-basepair elements. A study of a meningioma brain tumor from a laboratory scientist produced strong evidence of a known exposure to SV40 linked to subsequent cancer development 10–15 years later . Viral strain-specific DNA sequences in the meningioma were identical to those of the laboratory exposure source.”

@Christine Kincaid
There is another paper
Carroll-Pankhurst, C., Engels, E., Strickler, H. et al. Thirty-five year mortality following receipt of SV40-contaminated polio vaccine during the neonatal period. Br J Cancer 85, 1295–1297 (2001).
You would notice that this was 35 year study. No hints about mesothelioma or meningioma.
Mesothelioma has been linked to asbestos for very long time:
WAGNER JC, SLEGGS CA, MARCHAND P. Diffuse pleural mesothelioma and asbestos exposure in the North Western Cape Province. Br J Ind Med. 1960 Oct;17(4):260-71. doi: 10.1136/oem.17.4.260. PMID: 13782506; PMCID: PMC1038078.

Where to start.
1) The health dangers of working with asbestos have been known since the Victorian period. Which is before any polio vaccine. So that whole SV40 thing is a red herring. (And again, you’ve got no evidence that he ever got that vaccine.)

2) Is there any evidence at all whatsoever that Mr. Limbaugh ever worked with asbestos? (Having it in the popcorn ceiling doesn’t count, it’s only dangerous when you are breathing it in.) If he didn’t work with it then he can’t have mesothelioma. So, another red herring.

3) Mr. Limbaugh is known to have smoked tobacco products over a period of many decades. This alone is enough to put him at high risk of lung cancer.

4) Those ads have been on TV for at least 20 years. So all your timing stuff is kaput.

So, basically, this is a not-unexpected consequence of smoking.


To everyone

It amazes me the amount of narrow minded prejudice going on, and brow-beating of people who know the facts that contradict yours. .

SV40 is found in human tumors, especially in brain tumors of infants and children….

These are children of parents who got the polio vaccine.

Why don’t you look this stuff up before you claim it is bogus and alt-med rumor? Is it that you are so stuck in your view of medicine that you are unable to expand your knowledge base?

This is why every time I write anything I have place a link in my posts, otherwise I have to experience derogatory bullying remarks that are childish, and this from people who are supposed to be in medicine, or associated with medicine, or think they are knowledgeable about medicine.

I mean, if a person can not read a table and determine that getting the right answer 47 times out of 68 is enough good odds to beat the house in Vegas……… Perhaps one needs to take a second look before making a nasty comment.


Learn something new….

SV40 can cause mesothelioma. I mean do you read medical studies and papers? Try it sometime, there is more and more new information every year to try to keep up with.

All Rush needed to do was get one of the polio vaccinations with SV40 in it.

And by the way asbestos was used in homes, ceiling textures and home heating systems well into the 1970s. I live in a house made in the 1950s, and it has a heating system and venting that contains asbestos…which I can not afford to remove.


“Popcorn ceilings are only dangerous if you breath it in”

Now that is a stupid comment, ceiling treatments, and even wall paint, are constantly flaking off microscopic pieces.

Here is a study of one person who got cancer from these popcorn ceilings……

The tiniest vibration can release asbestos from popcorn ceilings…..

Are you sure you work in Medicine? If you live in a house with a popcorn ceiling it should be tested, and encapsulated or removed if asbestos is found. Or in your case, just leave it alone since you think it is “no big deal”.

@Aelxa Your narrow mindedness does not amaze me, it is an antivax thing. Your mind is so narrow that you do not even read your links.
A citation:
“SV40 is a high oncogenic small DNA tumor virus. However, this PyV has not been reported in tumors of the rhesus macaque (Macaca mulatta), which is its natural host. Indeed, SV40 infection in permissive monkey cells derived from kidney tissues leads to cell lysis and death, without neoplastic transformation.”
So hamsters are different, according your own link.

@Aelxa Perhaps he or she already knows an old IOM position paper endlessly repeated by antivaxxers. You should learn new things, too, like this:
Carroll-Pankhurst, C., Engels, E., Strickler, H. et al. Thirty-five year mortality following receipt of SV40-contaminated polio vaccine during the neonatal period. Br J Cancer 85, 1295–1297 (2001).
Study length was 35 years and no hints of mesothelioma.
There are any number of studies giving same result.

1) I didn’t say anything at all about SV40 being “bogus and alt-med rumor”. I said that in this instance that CK posited, it was a “red herring”.

2) Are you suggesting that SV40 somehow integrates into the germ line through multiple generations? Because if the one contamination incident was 60 years ago then any child now that has SV40 in a tumor would have to be either a grandchild of a person who was exposed, or the exposed person would have to be a father, which again would require germ-line integration.
Do you have a citation for that?

3) I know asbestos was used in homes into the 1970’s. My bedroom growing up had a popcorn ceiling with asbestos. I also have read up on asbestos abatement and what is required to remove asbestos safely. I never said anything about asbestos only being used up to a specific time. In fact, I’m pretty sure in another comment I said that it is still in use and the EPA was not allowed to ban it. So I have no idea where you were going with that statement?

4) Do I read scientific papers? Do I ever! Scores and scores of them, all the time, since college. Do I read every single paper published? No. I read papers relevant to my work and in my areas of interest. Since I don’t work in mesothelioma or industrial hygiene, no, I haven’t read all of those papers. Have you read the latest papers on lentivirus transduction?

5) As to making nasty comments, while I have been intemperate in the past, this comment was extremely polite.

6) If you’re worried about the asbestos in your home there are organizations that will help you pay to have it safely removed.


You obviously do not understand what you quoted.

Rhesus macaque are the natural host of the SV40 polyomavirus (PyV), just as bats are the natural hosts for the SARS-CoV-2 virus. This means these animals can carry and can spread those particular viruses, without getting sick from those viruses.

The SV40 PyV can infect and cause disease in hamsters, just as the SV40 PyV does in humans, since both are NOT natural hosts for SV40.

Why are you even commenting on this topic if you do not understand it?

If you read the entire paper, you should have understood way before you got to this area you quoted, what a host animal was, versus the animals like hamster that were not natural hosts for the viruses and thus would experience active disease when infected with SV40.

Please, stick to what you know and understand.

Tell me, what does this quote mean?

“SV40 can replicate in fetal neural cell lines, mesothelial cells, and B-/T lymphocytes….human HEK lymphoblastoid B-cell lines, as fibroblasts, such as WI-38 cells.
Human fibroblasts may become transformed due to the viral DNA integration in the host cell genome.”

If you can explain it to me.

And your antivax obsession, regarding me, is stupid, and repetition still does not validate it.


Your position paper is from 2001, which is 19 years ago. Things have changed as better testing was developed, if you paid attention to the two papers I linked to.

My papers were from 2019 and 2020, which is brand new information.

I would not be so proud of your paper, it was written before 9/11 happened, a generation ago.


You wrote…”If he didn’t work with it (asbestos) then he can’t have mesothelioma. So another red herring.”

And I gave a link to a woman who got mesothelioma from her popcorn ceiling, she never worked with Asbestos either. So you do not need to ever work with Asbestos to develop mesothelioma.

I also gave a link to babies and infants developing Mesothelioma, tumors that contain SV40 when the last SV40 contaminated vaccine was given back in 1963. Tumors that do not contain Asbestos.

If you notice the quote I just gave Aarno, the SV40 polyomavirus can and has entered the human genome. Read the Frontiers paper, it explains it fully. SV40 has been found in older people born before 1950 who never got the polio vaccine, and in the generations born after 1963.

The thing is the government knew about the contaminated vaccines, but let them continue using them until the contaminated vaccines ran out. They were all injected into children. Now we have a virus that is spreading that can cause Cancer in humans, and it has spread far beyond the initial vaccinated children.

The citation for that was the Frontiers paper, if you had read it you would not be asking me that question.

As for Asbestos, the EPA has banned Asbestos in lots of things……

While not a total ban, it is more than one can usually expect from a government controlled by corporations and their “donations” to politicians.

@Aelxa It still said that macaque monkeys does not get tumors, but hamsters get lots of them. How about reading this statement. Hamsters are special case, you should not use them as a model. Accidentally, macaque monkey is a closer relative to human than hamster.
Do you yourself understand what “replicate” means ? It does not mean “transform”. It means SV40 can replicate in human cells, without transforming them.
Going deeper, do you understand what “may” means ?

@Aelxa IOM position is quite old, too (2003), and you still cite it. Your other link ian not an epidemiological study.

If you notice the quote I just gave Aarno, the SV40 polyomavirus can and has entered the human genome. Read the Frontiers paper, it explains it fully. SV40 has been found in older people born before 1950 who never got the polio vaccine, and in the generations born after 1963.

You really might want to consider giving up on attempts at deductive reasoning.

Re Swayze, I recall a report of his asking his doctor whether quitting smoking would be of any help at some point. With a negative answer, he was able to enjoy the vice a while longer.

@ Denice,

"11:53 am
“ only helps when applied directly to the tumor..”

Yes & did you think my patients were using it that way? Do you think it’s being actually used that way by anybody? They were not & it is not. They were taking oral supplements from health food stores. Doctors do not actually apply shark cartilage to tumors, lol.

You are not who I am here for.

I’ll see your paper that was loaded with “might” and “could” and other supposition, the only conclusion it came to being “Someone should look into this” and raise you one from the Lancet loaded with actual scientific evidence:

López-Ríos F, Illei PB, Rusch V, & Ladanyi M (2004). Evidence against a role for SV40 infection in human mesotheliomas and high risk of false-positive PCR results owing to presence of SV40 sequences in common laboratory plasmids. Lancet, 364 (9440), 1157-66 PMID: 15451223

Medical Yeti,

Testa JR, Carbone M, Hirvonen A, et al. A multi-institutional study confirms the presence and expression of simian virus 40 in human malignant mesotheliomas. Cancer Res 1998;58:4505-9.

Cristaudo A, Foddis R, Vivaldi A, et al. SV40 enhances the risk of malignant mesothelioma among people exposed to asbestos: a molecular epidemiologic case-control study. Cancer Res 2005;65:3049-52. 10.1158/0008-5472.CAN-04-2219

Rizzo P, Bocchetta M, Powers A, et al. SV40 and the pathogenesis of mesothelioma. Semin Cancer Biol 2001;11:63-71. 10.1006/scbi.2000.0347

Carbone M, Rizzo P, Pass H. Simian virus 40: the link with human malignant mesothelioma is well established. Anticancer Res 2000;20:875-7.

Mazzoni E, Corallini A, Cristaudo A, et al. High prevalence of serum antibodies reacting with simian virus 40 capsid protein mimotopes in patients affected by malignant pleural mesothelioma. Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A 2012;109:18066-71. 10.1073/pnas.1213238109

Zhang L, Qi F, Gaudino G, et al. Tissue Tropism of SV40 Transformation of Human Cells: Role of the Viral Regulatory Region and of Cellular Oncogenes. Genes Cancer 2010;1:1008-20. 10.1177/1947601910395580

I can not believe YouRube, these days. Not only is search fucked but I get “this is rated tv-14 … sign in to…” on what I think is the relevant clip (Star Trek, That Which Survives with Kirk and clan shuffling around to defend against “I am for you, (x)” So, linking it here through the plugin might free it up??

You are not who I am here for.

Are you somehow under the impression that years of onanism have been overlooked?

Assuming that SV40 detection in human cancer cells means that SV40 caused the cancer, ignores the body of epidemiological evidence that SV40 is not a cause of cancer.

Even as the cohort of people who got polio vaccine containing SV40 reaches prime ages for developing cancer, cancer rates have been declining.

From the American Cancer Society:

“Some older studies suggested that infection with SV40 might increase a person’s risk of developing mesothelioma (a rare cancer of the lining of the lungs or abdomen), as well as some brain tumors, bone cancers, and lymphomas. But the accuracy of these older studies has been questioned.

Scientists have found that some lab animals, such as hamsters, developed mesotheliomas when they were intentionally infected with SV40. Researchers have also noticed that SV40 can make mouse cells grown in the lab become cancerous.

Other researchers have studied biopsy specimens of certain human cancers and found fragments of DNA that look like they might be from SV40. But not all researchers have found this, and fragments much like these can also be found in human tissues that show no signs of cancer.

So far, the largest studies looking at this issue have not found any increased risk for mesothelioma or other cancers among people who got the contaminated polio vaccines as children. For example, the recent increase in lung mesothelioma cases has been seen mainly in men aged 75 and older, most of whom would not have received the vaccine. Among the age groups who were known to have gotten the vaccine, mesothelioma rates have actually gone down. And even though women were just as likely to have had the vaccine, many more men continue to be diagnosed with mesothelioma.

The bottom line: even though SV40 causes cancer in some lab animals, the evidence so far suggests that it does not cause cancer in humans.”

Repeating a key line for antivax ninnies: “Among the age groups who were known to have gotten the vaccine, mesothelioma rates have actually gone down.”

There has been no SV40 in any vaccine since 1963. For those counting at home, that’s 57 years.

It’s a non-issue, except for antivaxers who can’t accept reality and continue to throw their poop* at the wall, desperately hoping something will stick.

*Antivax poop has a distinctive smell which experienced bullshit detectors can register. And it does not smell like victory.

Contamination paper is this:
López-Ríos F, Illei PB, Rusch V, & Ladanyi M (2004). Evidence against a role for SV40 infection in human mesotheliomas and high risk of false-positive PCR results owing to presence of SV40 sequences in common laboratory plasmids
You will notice that Strickland is not involved. For argument, perhaps his lab was not contaminated ?
Link between mesothelioma and asbestos is really old:
WAGNER JC, SLEGGS CA, MARCHAND P. Diffuse pleural mesothelioma and asbestos exposure in the North Western Cape Province. Br J Ind Med. 1960 Oct;17(4):260-71. doi: 10.1136/oem.17.4.260. PMID: 13782506; PMCID: PMC1038078.
They had 33 patients, only one without asbestos exposure.
If SV40 causes mesothelioma, why population studies do not show this:
Carroll-Pankhurst, C., Engels, E., Strickler, H. et al. Thirty-five year mortality following receipt of SV40-contaminated polio vaccine during the neonatal period. Br J Cancer 85, 1295–1297 (2001).
You would notice that this was 35 year study. No hints about mesothelioma or meningioma.
As for your links, Tesla et al found both SV40 and asbestos fiber in their mesothelioma samples, and that is all of it.
Cristaudo et al found this:
“The odds ratio for MM Asb- and SV40+ was 0.4 [95% confidence interval (95% CI), 0.03-4.0], for Asb+ and SV40- was 3.6 (95% CI, 0.6-21.0), and for Asb+ and SV40+ was 12.6 (95% CI, 1.2-133.9).
” You would notice that SV40 prevented mesothelioma. This is not true, error margins are very wide.
Carbone is opinion piece.
Mazzoni et al found SV40 antibodies both in healthy people and mesothelioma patients.
Zhang et al studied various SV40 strains. An interesting cell culture study. He states, too, that SV40 lyses all cultured human cells, expect mesothelial one.

@ Aarno,

Strickland was discredited.

“Results: Dr. Shah’s laboratory technique used in 1996 was apparently not sufficiently sensitive to detect SV40 in human tumors. When this became apparent, during unilateral pre-trial testing of positive controls by Dr. Shah, the study coordinator of the VEB, Dr. Strickler, apparently compromised the blinded nature of the study and allowed Dr. Shah to modify and improve his technique. When one of the participating laboratories questioned irregularities in the data from Dr. Shah’s laboratory and directly questioned Dr. Strickler, the study organizer, about the potential irregularity, Dr. Strickler and Dr. Shah offered letters stating that such irregularities had not occurred and re-confirmed that they had not deviated from the standard protocol.

Conclusion: The facts indicating that Dr. Shah’s laboratory technique was not sufficiently sensitive to detect SV40 were not made available to the other laboratories participating in the study and were not published. Instead, according to Dr. Shah’s testimony, Dr. Strickler, the VEB multi-center study coordinator, compromised the masked positive controls and knowingly permitted Dr. Shah to re-test and adjust his technique during pre-trial testing. The actual negative pre-trial test results were never published alongside the published trial results indicating Dr. Shah’s laboratory had the most sensitive technique to detect SV40 among the nine participating laboratories.”

This is a letter by a lawyer litigating and arguing – as far as I can tell, unsuccessfully, e.g. (and apparently also rejected in vaccine court). He also has a somewhat problematic past in other ways.

The opinion of a lawyer that an expert witness for the other side is wrong does not discredit a scientist. This is a letter from him. It’s not verified by any court or anything. It’s troubling that you think it’s enough to discredit the scientist.

@ Dorit,

Doctors M Carbone & M Bocchetta: Department of Pathology, Cardinal Bernardin Cancer Center, Loyola University Chicago, Cancer Immunology Program, Loyola University Chicago, Maywood, IL, USA

Doctor Carbone; NIH, NCI-designated comprehensive cancer center, Pioneer Award from the Mesothelioma Applied Research Foundation,

Doctor H I Pass; Cancer Center, Wayne State University School of Medicine, Detroit, MI, USA, International Mesothelioma Interest Group Wagner Medal Recipient, Mesothelioma Applied Research Foundation Pioneer Award recipient, American Association for the Cancer Research’s Landon Foundation AACR Innovator Award for International Collaboration in Cancer Research Recipien

Doctor L Miele; Department of Biopharmaceutical Sciences, College of Pharmacy, University of Illinois, Chicago, IL, USA

“Therefore, three independent scientific panels have all agreed that there is compelling evidence that SV40 is present in some human cancers and that SV40 could contribute to the pathogenesis of some of them. It should be noted that the presence of SV40 in mesothelioma and other human tumor types has been challenged by a research team that has consistently reported negative findings (Strickler et al., 2001). However, a member of this research team has recently acknowledged – in sworn testimony -sensitivity problems and possible irregularities that raise concerns about these negative reports”

Not wanting to go all ad hominem here, but MacLachlan is a corrupt lawyer disbarred for theft, not an expert on PCR.

@ Aelxa,

"It amazes me the amount of narrow minded prejudice going on, and brow-beating of people who know the facts that contradict yours. ."

They don’t care about facts if it threatens their vaccine faith. Actually, it’s more like religious fanaticism. It’s all about science based medicine EXCEPT for vaccines & then the scientific evidence becomes blasphemy. Vaccines can’t be challenged, even by science or it is sacrilege.

They don’t care about facts if it threatens their vaccine faith. Actually, it’s more like religious fanaticism.

You know, it’s funny.
I have been proven wrong recently here. Well, short on facts, anyway.

Check all my postings from now on, on all the social media I frequent, you won’t find me repeating my badly-sourced stories.

On some other blogs, I had on at least five occasions this past year some reasonable exchanges with people, at the end of which I concluded I was wrong, or ill-informed, or my opinion could use some more nuance. In one case, I was full-on romantic.

You? You keep repeating the same stuff, even after a full thread with 10 or more people pointing to you that you are wrong and how you are wrong. With outside sources, for the better of them.

Tl;dr: a friend once told me, some people can’t smell their own sh!t.
Her advice stopped me in my tracks. It’s an ongoing work, but I learned.

You, on the other hand. Nope. For someone claiming to be an expert in smelling poo…

@ Athaic,

I’m sure you do possess that positive trait. I just can’t get somebody to look at vaccines critically. Everyone wants for somebody else to have said it first (PROOF).

That’s ‘knowledge’ I guess; knowing that something is true because somebody or some institution or some study told you so but that’s something a robot could do. Data entry & recall.

LOOK at who did which SV40 studies. Look at the congressional testimony; there have been several of them. LOOK at the epidemiological incidence of Medulloblastoma, Non-Hodgkin’s, Osteosarcoma & Mesothelioma; both pre & post 1950’s. Not mortality; incidence. Connect the dots; the big picture is there.

The only way you can’t see it; is if you are not trying. The reason you’re not trying; has nothing to do with science. it’s something else.

@Christine Kincaid I have posted a real epidemiological study quite many times already. So again:
Carroll-Pankhurst, C., Engels, E., Strickler, H. et al. Thirty-five year mortality following receipt of SV40-contaminated polio vaccine during the neonatal period. Br J Cancer 85, 1295–1297 (2001).
It is 35 year long study, no cancer you mentioned were found. Epidemiology is not like something bad has happened, vaccines must be the cause.
There is the paper about contamination, again:
López-Ríos F, Illei PB, Rusch V, & Ladanyi M (2004). Evidence against a role for SV40 infection in human mesotheliomas and high risk of false-positive PCR results owing to presence of SV40 sequences in common laboratory plasmids.
Strickland was not involved.
Congress does determine scientific facts. Hamster data was important, and Aelxa herself posted a link showing how special hamsters are in this case.

2 mins of LoL

Carbonite “back it up, get it…” Oh, our account lapsed?
Copy machine “stick it in, …” Oh, that sexetary is so fired!
Cell phone photos “point and cl…” Bob, how many times. Front-facing camera is for DICK PICS!

Now I’ll never get to see Hunter’s Golden Shower layout. ?? There is no way I’m voting for him now.

Speaking of religious cults: it was Age of Autism, which in defending its policy of censoring critical comments, directly compared itself to a religion which didn’t have to tolerate doubters.

Flinging a few examples of bad or dubious science does not make someone a critical thinker, especially when 1) all they’re doing is cutting and pasting it without bothering with comprehension, and 2) their response to bad science being challenged is to declare that their opponents are engaging in “religion”.

@Aelxa, We tried to extend kindness to Christine. Most of us have sympathy for her lack of support services and that she lost a child. In response, she has mocked people with CP, endorsed eugenics by calling infants dying of pertussis “part of the evolutionary process” and tried to diagnose other commentators as vaccine injured over the internet, while also declaring that she has “super powers.” If you want to align yourself with that, that’s your choice, but people are known by the company they keep, and given some of your comments on ableism in society, it makes me doubt that you meant any of it.

@ Terrie,

I have never mocked people with CP. Prove it or STFU. I said that caregiving for a child with CP was a lighter burden for caregiving for adolescents; especially very large, male adolescents, with severe autism.

I have never said that “infants dying of pertussis was part of the evolutionary process”; I said that exposure to & development of immunity (or susceptibility); was part of the evolutionary process of our immune systems.

I have never “declared that I have “super powers”. I have mentioned that I am hf ASD with Hyperlexia.

I’m sure Aelxa has already had a taste of the condescending, close-minded, twisting words out of context bullying, that is the typical behavior of many (but not all) here. She doesn’t have to like me for you to treat her poorly & she doesn’t have to hate me for you to like her; this isn’t high school.

I showed your comments to someone I know with CP. She offered to run you over with her wheelchair to show you how “Disability lite” it was and called you a fuckwit, so I’d say she felt pretty mocked.

So are saying that getting pertussis is necessary for development of immune system ? Dying is necessary to development of immune system ? Seriously ?

” CP was a lighter burden for caregiving for adolescents;…”

So an adult child with CP with the mental age of a two year old, who is in a huge mechanical wheelchair is a lighter burden? Wow, just wow. Plus there is the problem of getting a care giver for their single mom to work (the dad exited upon the birth of this kid). Apparently most did not want to lift a seventy pound adult into a bath chair with wages that are less than you can get flipping burgers. (so the 80+ grandmother filled that need).

You obviously do not understand CP also has a vast spectrum of disability.

(also, it shows you have never joined your local disability network — if you had, you would have met several families dealing with such issues and would not make such an idiotic statement)


Yes, a person with CP who is only 70 pounds is a lighter burden than a 220 young flailing giant who refuses to get up off the flour and into the shower.

I can pick up a 70 pound person who is not resisting me tooth and nail as if they were going to die.

I do not know about Christine, but the Autism Society meetings are 2 hours away by car. And there is no “Disability Network” where I live. But I certainly met enough parents with kids needing services at our local school, one of them with CP in a wheelchair. They said how happy they weretgeir child was less work than mine was.

We have no “special school” for the handicapped here, all the kids have a choice of the East County or West County Elementary School, one Middle School and one High School for the entire county. Bussing to get kids to school can take over 1 and 1/2 hours minimum.

Not everyone lives where you do, most of the country is rural.


First of all I do not “keep company” with Christine.

I merely backed up her comments regarding shark cartilage applied to tumors killing them, regarding smell,and a few other things she wrote which were valid statements.

I do disagree with her at times, an example is her willingness to take support from QAnon when it comes to Autism. I wrote that QAnon was a bunch of conspiracy fanatics and I avoid them like the plague.

You may not like her stance or my stance regarding vaccines, but the name-calling and total rejection of all statements based on that one item, is completely narrow-minded.

And to have people who are supposed to be practicing medicine, or in ancillary fields, doing so, especially when the statements are medical fact…… that is as low as one can go, to call her names and mock unceasingly.

If you think she said something incorrect, you should double-check your facts before commenting. I do it all the time and link to it in my comment. One can believe something and then find out one made a mistake in remembering the facts. To browbeat someone when they are stating true facts is to showcase your real nature, which is not very appealing at all when you do so.

I try not to call people names, but I am not perfect either and here and there will do so when I finally reach a limit with a person. But I attempt to look at other facets than just one’s stance in vaccines.

You have, more than once, complained about how we’re “mean” to Christine, including calling me cruel for calling out that she’s ableist. I’m simply giving you context for some of what you see her, because while, frankly, I think your conspiracy views are a bunch of nonsense, we do actually agree on some views with regards to disability issues and the disability community, and I thought that if you’re serious about them, this is context you should have. What you do with it is up to you.


All I know of Christine is the comments she has written since I came to this site.

Regarding any comments she made about CP , etc ….I have not read them.

I can say trying to deal with an 6 foot 4, 220lb person with Autism who is resistant to ANY change is like dealing with Aarno, ……….he keeps misunderstanding everything and makes doing everything like pulling teeth.

Try living with a 28 yo who has not taken a shower or bath in 14 years because water on his skin feels like it is burning like fire. He will not even wash his face. And will eat nothing except wheat and cheese, looking like a malnourished white marshmallow from refusing to go outside when the sun is up. Everything is a fight and they wear you down after almost 30 years.

There is no one to help because all federal funds once they are out of school disappear. He got $153 in food stamps until trump got into office.

Clearing the Swamp means cutting assistance to the disabled, one year the food stamps was cut to $15, and the next year to $zero$. Now I have to buy his food with my Social Security, which leaves me with one meal a day. Food banks have no foods he will eat, and no food I can eat with my allergies and Celiac Disease.

People with CP grow up and leave home, most kids with Autism are kids forever, who never leave home and need your help until you die. Then someone else gets to take care of them, who? Who knows, not even the government wants to even merely help feed them anymore.

The stress and difficulties of having a child with Autism never ends, I would rather he had been born with CP.

He may have been able to finish high school and gone to college. He might have gotten married and had a relationship with another human being. He might have had children of his own.

My World is filled with “if only” wishes and thoughts, but he will go nowhere and do nothing. Getting him to wash his hands is a daily fight. He might have taken a shower every day, if he had CP instead.

There is a reason Christine writes the way she does, and I fully understand where she is coming from. All of you have no idea what living like this does to us, I can not even safely leave the house since no one will take care of him while I am gone to the doctor. I just wonder how Christine will cope when her child is almost 30.

The rabbithole gets bigger and deeper every year, one of these days I will just curl up and die, and some else will be responsible for him. And I will finally be able to rest.

“People with CP grow up and leave home”

Citation needed. Because I know more than one adult with CP with the intellectual ability of a two year old. One is at home, and one is dead from pneumonia.

You have no idea about disabilities.


I have no “conspiracy views”.

I do believe vaccines need to be made better and with less toxic adjuvents.

Where does a “conspiracy” come in on that? Do I think people are deliberately poisoning kids in order to eliminate people? No.

Please outline, in specifics, this “conspiracy” I supposedly believe in.

@ Terrie,

I have never mocked people with CP. I said that caregiving for a child with CP was a lighter burden for caregiving for adolescents; especially very large, male adolescents, with severe autism.

I have never said that “infants dying of pertussis was part of the evolutionary process”; I said that exposure to & development of immunity (or susceptibility); was part of the evolutionary process of our immune systems.

I have never “declared that I have “super powers”. I have mentioned that I am hf ASD with Hyperlexia

oops weird double post. thought the first one had disappeared. Oh well. It needed to be said twice.

Just from doing a few SV40 searches, my fb is now being spammed by “Mesothelioma treatment; do you want to chat to an associate?”

Ublock Origin+Noscript/Umatrix+VPN+clear cookie after logon + burn facefuck account. Also, offer to check DB’s sewage sludge for Rota for a slight fee.

Mobile is a little more easy: if you can’t find out how to “:root” it, smash it to bits.

So death was part of “evolutionary process of our immune system” ? Does that mean that it is not currently ? Pertussis deaths are not allowed any more ? Or do you mean that pertussis deaths had an evolutionary significance ?


Just ignore Terrie.

Kids with FASD are smaller than normal , in addition to all the other problems they have. Your kid is 6’5″ and mine is 6″3″ , neither fall into the FASD category, just on height alone.

Terri’s entire diatribe is constructed to elicit angry emotional comments where we can “mess up”, so she and Denice, and now Chris, can make more derogatory remarks and assumptions.

The nonsense they put out is a waste of time and energy, better used in more constructive areas. You and I both know how hard our lives are, especially dealing with such large and unpredictable people like our kids.

That we feel at times that life would be easier with someone small who does not fight you tooth and nail, they can not understand. So it is a waste of time to even express our frustrations, since they will twist what we say and say nasty things ad nausem. They do not understand that going to a support meeting is impossible, since our kids are not allowed to go with us, and we have no one to watch them while we go to a meeting. And if I found someone to watch my kid, he would have a meltdown when a stranger entered “his house”.

God give me patience, perhaps I will go to sleep and not wake up tonight. A long, long rest would be good.

You know, for people who like to go on and on and on about how they work in the medical field, I’m not sure Aelxa or Christine has ever spent much time with anyone dealing with disabilities outside of autism. “Maybe my son would shower if he had CP.” Gee, or maybe your son would be unable to get out of bed without assistance, live with constant pain, be unable to enter most homes and many businesses, develop PTSD from multiple painful orthopedic surgeries at a young age, etc.

@ Terrie:

You’re doing a good job.
The reason they deny what they’ve said is because they know that finding each specific quote would take lots of time ( although Narad is expert at this) wading through hundreds of comments over months However, many of Orac’s regulars had to navigate medical or graduate school and know how to create precise synopses and not forget basic views of individuals such as researchers/ writers: some of them even studied memory ( Heh). So I’d venture that most regular readers here can recall these views quite well..

One of the alties I survey claims that he is not an aids denialist despite writing, speaking and filming material over decades that dispute most of what SBM teaches about hiv/aids, twisting language YET he will never admit that the hiv is the sole cause of aids. Similarly, anti-vaxxers cry, “I’m not an anti-vaxxer! I’m for safe vaccines!” ( RFKjr, others) yet they disregard most of what SBM demonstrates about vaccines and manage to cause less sophisticated followers to fear/ doubt vaccines any way they can.
Anyone who attempts to scare people away from vaccines by putting forth spurious research, elaborate theories that are not borne out by data, misinformation and doubts about consensus science or personal horror stories about vaccines are anti-vaxxers. Orac has written 25 plus posts about this tendency..(” The Annals of ‘I’m not anti-vaccine'” or similar title see search box).

@Denice, a lot of my involvement with antivax issues comes from being politically active and having worked on a lot of disability rights issues. My end conclusion is that most antivaxxers don’t care about disabled people beyond the direct impact they experience. They want simple, easy answers to their problems, that require minimal effort on their part. The reality is that the disability community is highly diverse, sometimes contradictory (a super basic example — one person who uses a service dog, while another has a debilitating phobia of dogs), and yet there aren’t really issues that are unique to any one disability. There are no easy answers. Sometimes, there aren’t even any right answers (such as the person I know who has medical PTSD due to surgeries that, in other ways, improved her quality of life by doing things like ensuring she could actually sit upright without additional pain).

When I think of what could be done with the money, time, and energy frittered away by the antivax movement, it’s almost enough to make me cry. Mostly, it just pisses me off.


What happened to you no longer commenting on Christine or I???

Can not resist so you prod Terrie on, good job.

And do not point out that Orac just wrote about his own doubts about the COVID-19 vaccines being developed, at the beginning of his post. Oh my Goodness, could he be developing “antvaxxer” tendencies????????

You can take your rigid “All vaccines are good, and should never be spoken ill of” attitude, and put it where the sun does not shine.

Equating anyone who says all vaccines are not good and need to be made better, with people who deny HIV, the Moon Landing, that the World is round, etc, etc etc, is BS. The “Holier than thou” syndrome, like the people who go to one church and condemn all others, proclaiming only they have the Truth and the favor of God.

All vaccines are not good, they need improving and will always need improving because we are constantly learning new things about the immune system and the human body dealing with what is in vaccines, medicines, etc

Since all vaccines are good, then all cars must be good. Can I interest you on buying a nice Ford Pinto? It only blows up if it gets rear-ended.

Why don’t you become a guinea pig for AstraZeneca? Only two people have developed Transverse Myelitis and one of them died from it. Or was it the meningitis vaccine they use as a “placebo”?

Who cares, all vaccines are good afterall. Go for it Denice since all vaccines are good, put your mouth where your claim it is. Or are you chicken?


The Society of Behavioral Medicine???

Since neither Autism nor HIV/ AIDS are caused by psychological problems, I think I will pass on what SBM about neurological damage and immunological disease.

For the last time the World is round, men walked on the Moon, HIV is the virus that causes AIDS, the sky is blue and grass is green. Cats meow, dogs bark, and you are tedious.

And SBM pushes meditation, which should make them woo-woo on this site.


Well, I have multiple disabilities myself, including severe osteo- and rheumatoid arthritis, and use a electric chair when I have to, so do not think I do not know anything about the various disabilities. Getting into places can be impossible in a wheelchair, even if there is a handicap ramp, there may be no automatic doors and trying to open a door in a chair can be almost impossible at times.

I have been in severe pain for over 40 years and on pain management taking up to 3 different pain killers at one time in order to be able to function, so there is not much I do not know about pain. It can consume your brain and your life.

Imagine having to take care of a 28 yo who is really only 2 years old in a 6’4″ body when you can hardly function yourself.

Forget this, ask your friend if they would rather be stuck in a “healthy” body, but have their brain function be that of a two year old. And now throw in sensory problems like water burning their skin like a torch, florescent lights that batter their eye and ears. Did you know florescent light give off a high pitched hum that can drive you crazy if you are Autistic? And any change in your environment, like a new car instead of the familiar car your parent had, can make getting you into a car pure hell and damnation.

Now imagine your parent shopping, while you, a 28 yo kid, screams bloody murder, starts flailing your arms, hitting your parent and everything close, while other adults look at you like you are crazy and your parent needs to leave this flailing nut at home. Which they can not do, because their husband died of Agent Orange when you were 4 yo, and there is no one to watch you at home. Now imagine people who do get close to tell you to tell your parent they need to take your son outside. And get a whiff of a human that has not washed in over 10 years.

Yes, Autistic kids can be sweet and you have hope they will improve, but when you have to deal with this for the rest of your life, it is literally hell.

You know, every disability has it’s difficulties and none are pleasant to endure, but Autism is hell both for him and for me.

So quit making judgments about things you have absolutely no idea about. And donate some time to help family with a child with severe Autism. Then you might learn what they are going through.

I love my son, but there are times when he is very difficult and I am in pain and very tired when I wish for an easier disability to deal with. Right now my physician is trying yo get me to send him to an institution.

Ask your friend if she would like to have a disability where she will wind up warehoused in an institution when her caretaker dies. I guarantee you she would rather keep her CP disability problems instead.

She has, at various points, lived in an institution-type setting. And thanks to COVID and Trump, she make have to go back. That assumes she doesn’t get COVID, herself, because there’s a good chance they’ll just let her die if she does. And, guess what, still nothing unique about your situation. It’s the same shitty situation tons of families dealing with disabilities face all the damned time, because of lack of support services.

I could introduce you to people dealing with FASDs who outright cried when their child’s testing came back as normal intelligence, because that meant zero services and lack of services meant the “institution” in their child’s future was the school to prison pipeline. No one’s saying high needs autism isn’t tough. We’re just saying it’s not unique, and stop pretending like you have it tougher than other people. (Oh, fun fact, the rate of FASDs is estimated as 1-5% in the US, making it as common as autism, if not more so).

@ Aelxa,

Bravo. I could never say it as well as you just did.My 16 year old son is 6 foot 5 inches tall now & weighs 250 lbs, with the social development of a 3 year old. “Level 3” (will need 1:1 care for the rest of his life). Severe, regressive. Had been developmentally ahead until the post-vaccination encephalopathy initiated his regression.

He is sweet, funny & artistic but developed puberty onset aggression & last year he put 3 of his 4 school staff members on workmen’s comp & dealt a concussion to one with one blow, before we got him started on immune suppression. Now, his behaviors have improved by 64% (charted by incidence) per his behavioral team but the sound of someone whistling, or someone walking past him can set him off.

People who don’t live it have no place judging it.

And @ Terrie,

Please stop joining comments about ASD with FAS. I didn’t drink during pregnancy, I still rarely drink & I have never known a mother of an ASD child who was a drinker during pregnancy. It hearkens back to the “Refrigerator Mom” trope & it is unnecessary.


Let’s put it this way, Terrie, until you have a kid with this condition you have no say to be criticizing me. It is so easy to say you can do it better, well go foster a teenaged kid with this condition for a year, then come say anything you want.

And then realize I have been dealing with this for 28 years.

You want to help? Work with the people with Autism personally and not raising money. Since the money goes to research, which will not fix our kids and also not help us buy them what they need.

How about calling every politician out there to roll back the Food Stamp cuts? In addition to donating time so parents of disabled kids can go out for a quiet meal, or just a walk in the fresh air by themselves.

My husband died in 1996, and I have been doing this alone since then. Having a personal relationship with another person was out, my son barely tolerates me alone.

Imagine never going in a date again for the rest of your life.

Walk in my shoes for 24 hours if you dare.


Fetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorders are caused by the mother drinking, those people deserve to cry, they poisoned their child deliberately by drinking.

Every bottle of alcohol has a warning on it….” Women should not drink alcoholic beverages during pregnancy because of the risk of birth defects”.

Every doctor tells a pregnant woman not to drink ANY alcohol. Because even one drink at the wrong time can cause FASD.

I have Asthma and had to stop most if my medications well before I got pregnant, and I refused all medications during my delivery. I did all the things the ob/gyn said I needed to do before and during my pregnancy, and had a perfect child for six months.

So quit with the FASD stuff, it is a condition the mother caused, and has nothing to do with Autism.

It is just another way for you to harass Christine, and is dispicable behavior in anyone.

Or do you have a child with FASD and are trying to shift blame in some way? If so, let me tell you like it is, it is your fault.

That is obvious. I participate in my local disability organization, and have learned there are lots of kinds of disabilities. And range of intellect. Not all of those with cerebral palsy are intellectually competent, that is also a vast spectrum.

Though they have a greater risk for pneumonia:

I am sure our two anti-vaccine trolls will call the death from pneumonia of someone in a wheelchair from pneumonia a good thing. Mostly because they are cool with eugenics, and that is not a good thing.


You are a troll.

Cool with Eugenics? You are full of it, and it smells like crap.

The Pediatric Neurologist looked at the EEG he ran on my son arrested three days after his six month vaccinations, and told me my son would never talk or interact with anyone because the brain damage was so severe. And told me I should just send him to an institution, and get pregnant again and have a undamaged child.

Now that was a person who believed in Eugenics, our genes were fine so just start over.

Instead I worked hard, and got him to the point he could minimally talk and did not need diapers by the third grade, he was looking forward to going to college when in Middle School…..then High School sent him in a tail spin, with teachers telling him he was a waste and would never be anything.

He went from tolerating showers and changing clothes daily so he could go to school, to regressing to a two year old who has worn the same clothes for a year now, and probably they will rot off before they get changed. Because I can not fight with him anymore, he has won the clothing fight.

He tried hard to overcome his sensory problems, and inability to understand and interact with people, and it all went down the tubes. It is easier to be lost in his own World, because all his effort was a lost cause….according to an ass of a teacher. When I attempt to get him to try again, that the effort is worth it, he just sits and spins, doing nothing.

Right, Eugenics, if I believed in that my son would have been dead long ago. Besides, his genes are fine, they have done enough gene studies every few years to determine that fact. The brain damage was from the vaccines.

Ass. And the comments about CP and pneumonia are just more Ass-ery from you. You assume crap and it definitely makes an Ass out of you, buddy. And you make up lots of crap.

And the “local” organization is in the small city two hours away. I am not driving two hours one way, to talk to people for an hour, and then have to drive home another two hours. You are nuts if you think I will. And why will watch my son during that time? Only kids who can sit quietly are allowed.

Stop assuming everyone has the same access to services or support groups as you do. Especially in a county with ONE grocery store, we do not have squat here.

I never said you drank. Just one more thing you made up, because it fits your persecution complex. I said there’s a heavy overlap in symptoms, and many kids with FASDs (which is broader than FAS) may be misdiagnosed with autism, especially if they have ARND (no iding facial features) and no one can get confirmation of maternal drinking.

I have known families who have had their kids have an FASD diagnosis replace their autism diagnosis as they get older and the differences in developmental patterns become apparent and someone is able to confirm the birth mom drank. Hell, I’ve met families whose kids have both FASD and ASD diagnoses. But I guess you think they don’t exist, because they aren’t blaming vaccines.

There are a few studies that suggest maternal drinking as a risk for ASD, but personally, I think that says we’re misdiagnosing kids with FASDs, not that drinking leads to autism.


They actually run drug tests on pregnant women to check for drugs and alcohol on a regular basis. And without you knowing. I saw my own chart and it held multiple tests to make sure I was drug-free. And I had quit drinking a year before my pregnancy, and even back then I drank only for holiday and birthday toasts.

You seem to have a bad case of having done something wrong and now want others to be guilty, too.

Sorry, but you can not lay your trip on me or Christine.

The reason we are for better vaccines is because we had perfect pregnancies and perfect kids….until a vaccine tripped a switch.

And if we were against vaccines, we would be against ALL vaccines, instead of wanting better vaccines made.

WTF? To borrow a page from Christine’s book, please prove I made any claim that either of you drank or STFU. It basically revalidates my experience of how fucking self-centered antivaxxers are that I talk about the actual experiences of people, and you take it as a personal attack. The existence of other people is not about you.


WTF, Terrie, do not be do facetious.

You keep harping on FASD and it being directly connected to Autism, and even said no one can tell if a pregnant woman is avoiding alcohol or not.

If I had a car accident because my brakes failed, and you kept harping on car accidents mostly being due to drinking and driving, that no one could tell if I was drinking since no one do a test…..I would be taking it personally, too.

What you do is a sneaky and obnoxious form of bullying, and you keep it up because you enjoy bullying.

So, how is your FASD kid and the rest of your family with FASD kids? Hope you get treatment for your problem, they have facilities for treating drinking problems, you know.

Let’s see your proof that doctors run tests on patients without their knowledge and permission,,,,

If I had a car accident because my brakes failed,

And then go on saying that cars are unsafe and brakes were never tested against a true placebo and that these faulty brakes are highly prevalent and responsible for tooth decay, autism, the Y2K bug, and leaving the toilet’s seat up…

Then Terrie is fully warranted in injecting some perspective with true facts.

We have a saying in French. “Prends pas ton cas pour une généralité” – don’t confuse your personal case with the general case.

@ Lawrence,

Ever heard of the meconium stat? They don’t ask parents if it is okay to check for drugs in a newborn’s first bowel movement; they just do it. There’s no standard or standing order for it; it’s done on a case by case basis, depending sometimes on presentation of the newborn, or lack of prenatal care but more so judgments such as “looks flaky”, “too young” “strange visitors who smell like weed” & other such crap. Meconium stat can detect drug use back to the mom’s 2nd trimester. And yes, tox screen UA’s are done in many cases without a pregnant mom’s knowledge, let alone consent. Done by blood draw sometimes in the event of placenta abruption (looking for meth or cocaine; stimulants).

Not that they are frequently used on most moms of children who regress into autism; because we are usually meticulous about prenatal care & good health while pregnant. That’s how we wound up with disabled kids; we did everything we could that we were told was “healthy”. Like vaccinating.

@ Lawrence,

I don’t need them because it’s not over yet. I don’t have the patience for a martyr complex & I have no intention of going out having sacrificed my children for some oblivious herd without seeing vaccines exposed for what they are before I do.

Hey asshat, (and you more than deserve that) – go pound sand. You and Christine are nothing more than circle-jerking around your own martyr tree……”oh whoa is me, my life is hard and I blame vaccines for everything.”

Apparently neither understand how some of their beliefs are akin to the “survival of the fittest” by ignoring the real dangers of the diseases. Apparently vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases, because truly healthy children can endure the diseases. All the others deserve their fate. Which is, in fact, eugenics.

@Chris, are we really shocked? They’ve shown they literally can’t comprehend caring about issues that don’t have immediate impact on a person.


Hey posthole, your crappy comments are just that, crap.

When the pediatric neurologist says it was the vaccine, I believe him over a zero nobody like you.

Has your wife recovered yet from the last beating? I can dish out the same stuff as you do, since you like spreading it around.

@ Chris,

The vaccines ARE more dangerous than the diseases, in the US, in the 21st century. There is a time & place for vaccines & a way to vaccinate without causing harm & we currently do not take advantage of anything we are capable of, to do so.

@ Lawrence,

Yeah, my life is hard compared to most, in the US, in the 21st century but my child’s life is harder, because of the vaccines. I am not a victim; I do a pretty good job in handling what life has handed me.


Living on Htrae?

I am pretty she is living on Earth.

And have you stopped beating your wife yet?


Both Christine and I have said there is a time and place for vaccines, and not that all vaccines are bad.

I have said I have had many vaccines, the last was a tetanus vaccine four years, 24 years after my son’s brain was almost eliminated by his six month vaccines. If I dud not believe in vaccines, then I would not have gotten the tetanus vaccine. And I am sure Christine has had her share of vaccines in her life.

You are nothing but a bully, and a very poor, repetitious one, too. Whbedon’t you find a redeeming topic to write about, like how on-line bullying is a social scourge and bullys should be exposed for what they are, cowards .

Does this statement apply to COVID 19 ? (Or AIDS) And only reason we do not have VPD death, is vaccination.


“Evidence points to wild type virus causing SSPE in cases with have been immunized and have had no known natural measles infection.”

In other words, the vaccination does not protect anyone from getting SSPE. And while they say it is “wild-type” Measles causing SSPE in the vaccinated, they also say the immunized “have had no known natural measles infection”, ie no one around the child has had the wild-type Measles.

They hope to eradicate the Measles to prevent SSPE, since even vaccination does not prevent SSPE.

@Aelxa An opinion piece. Real epidemiological data:
Campbell H, Andrews N, Brown KE, Miller E. Review of the effect of measles vaccination on the epidemiology of SSPE. Int J Epidemiol. 2007 Dec;36(6):1334-48. doi: 10.1093/ije/dym207. Epub 2007 Nov 23. PMID: 18037676.
“Epidemiological data showed that successful measles immunization programmes protect against SSPE and, consistent with virological data, that measles vaccine virus does not cause SSPE. ”
You still pick random junk from random websites.

In other words, the vaccination does not protect anyone from getting SSPE.

There is quite some distance between “failed to protect a few” and “doesn’t protect anyone”.

You seem prone to the Nirvana fallacy today. Did you get a baker’s dozen of it while shopping?

I just hope you took some time out of blogging and went voting today.

In other words, the vaccination does not protect anyone from getting SSPE.

This has got to be one of the most vapid bits of mental gymnastics I have seen. It is not possible to get SSPE, unless there has been a measles infection. Measles vaccine prevents measles infections and by doing so prevents SSPE.

It turns out there is a higher risk of children getting SSPE following measles infection if they are infected at a young age; that is before they can be vaccinated for measles. Population level vaccination for community immunity protects these children from SSPE as well.

Countries that have instituted measles vaccination programs have seen a more than 90% reduction in incidence of SSPE.


I posted the wrong link……

SSPE occurs in the vaccinated, vaccination does not protect one from getting SSPE, it is that simple.

I did early voting on October 16th, an easy decision with the mail so messed up. I have not seen an electric bill since January and who knows where the water bill is going either.

But the Post Office delivers lots of advertising and political junk mail just fine.

@Aelxa Publication date is 1982. These is, of course, newer data.
H Campbell, N Andrews, K E Brown, E Miller, Review of the effect of measles vaccination on the epidemiology of SSPE, International Journal of Epidemiology, Volume 36, Issue 6, December 2007, Pages 1334–1348,
Notice that SSPE is a sequlae of measles following average 7 years afterwards

Aelxa: “Both Christine and I have said there is a time and place for vaccines, and not that all vaccines are bad.”

You’re ascribing rationality to someone who just posted “The vaccines are more dangerous than the diseases”.

Both of you blame vaccination for your children’s health problems and spend inordinate amounts of time here throwing antivax glurge at the wall, desperately hoping something will stick.

None of the I-never-said-all-vaccines-are-bad-how-dare-you-bullies-call-me-an-antivaxer types are ever willing to answer a simple question: which vaccines on the pediatric and adult schedules do you support?

First of all, it was my son’s pediatric neurologist who told me it was the six month vaccinations that damaged his brain. This neurologist saw kids all the time who got brain damage within a week of their receiving vaccinations.

It took me until 2012, twenty years after the damage was done, to figure out it was a combination of MTHFR genes C667T, folic acid supplementation, methylation problems, chemicals, and metals in the vaccines he got that did the damage.

Meanwhile, my son got all his required school vaccinations. Even though he had bad reactions to all of them. I was still a believer in vaccines back then despite what the neurologist told me.

Now, I know vaccinating newborn’s and infants is stupid because their immune systems are not developed enough to even respond correctly to vaccinations…..

A pediatrician I know advises his parents to limit all vaccinations until the child is one year old because the infant immunize system is not able to respond properly. He gives the parents all the facts and lets them decide in the end. And he will only give single vaccines, not the multi-vaccination shots.

And if a mother breastfeeds her child, the child receives antibodies in the breast milk. My son was breastfed for over a year, and so he was getting antibodies from me and did not need all those vaccinations. Especially the MMR, since I had had those diseases and my antibody titers were high with he was born, and are still high at 66 y.o.

One of the unnecessary vaccinations they give all newborns is for Hepatitis B. Since babies can only get it from their mothers and only 25,000 women with Hepititis B in the US give birth to babies each year. Testing each mother for Hep B and only immunizing their newborns would be logical, but nooooo….we need to immunize all newborns for this disease.

3,788,235 babies were born in the US in 2018, so WHY vaccinate all over 3 million newborns for Hep B, when only 25,000 newborns need the vaccine? You tell me the logic for this.

What pediatric and adult vaccinations would I approve of? Give me a list of vaccinations and their ingredients and then I will decide. And the decision will be based on my and my son’s MTHFR status and applies to us.

Everyone else can make their own decisions regarding vaccinations. I am not going to make decisions for anyone else, it is their body and life so they get to decide. But they would be wise to learn more before making that decision, so they will not have any regrets afterwards.

Newborn immune system is immature, but it is still working:
Milne A, West DJ, Chinh DV, Moyes CD, Poerschke G. Field evaluation of the efficacy and immunogenicity of recombinant hepatitis B vaccine without HBIG in newborn Vietnamese infants. J Med Virol. 2002 Jul;67(3):327-33. doi: 10.1002/jmv.10071. PMID: 12116022.
Your pediatrician is wrong. Obviously, if a vaccine is not immunogenic, it would not be accepted. I guess that he or she gave you estimate how many babies need HepB vaccine, too.
In old times child mortality because of infectious diseases was sky high. Do you think that nobody was breastfeeding then ?
You of course are not making vaccination decision for yourself, you are making it for your child. Can you spot the difference ?

if a mother breastfeeds her child, the child receives antibodies in the breast milk. My son was breastfed for over a year, and so he was getting antibodies from me and did not need all those vaccinations.

Nope. Well, mostly not true.
Your baby was just lucky. Among other things, lucky to have all these immune people around them.

These antibodies present in the milk are feed to the baby, not injected in their bloodstream (or so I hope).
So they are only going to be active against bugs present in the mouth and in the guts of the baby.
They are not going to do much at stopping a virus going through the respiratory tract. Like the measles virus.
You are confusing them with the antibodies given by the mom through the placenta. Those are going to protect the baby during the first months of their life. Until the baby run out of them.

BTW, these placental antibodies are the main reason why measles vaccination is not given before 1 year. It’s not really a question of “immune immaturity”. If the baby has these antibodies, the antigens in the vaccine will just get caught by them. With the result that 1- the vaccine may no trigger a proper immune response from the baby themselves, and 2- the placental antibodies are going to be consumed for nothing.

WHY vaccinate all over 3 million newborns for Hep B, when only 25,000 newborns need the vaccine?

Because testing the mother and other caregivers for HepB is not accurate, and the vaccination will last well into the teenaged years of the baby, so protecting them also later in life?
By your logic, we don’t need seatbelts either. Only people going into a car accident need them.


“They hope to eradicate the Measles to prevent SSPE, since even vaccination does not prevent SSPE.”

So vaccines don’t prevent SSPE – unless you use vaccines to eradicate measles. I don’t know about you and Christine “Children dying in agony is my jam” Kincaid, but I’d be delighted at the prevention of SSPE through a vaccination program that eradicates measles.


If they run the Measles program like they have run the Polio program, then you can expect the Measles not to be eradicated in this Century.

And you seem to not understand what I wrote….the vaccination for the Measles also causes SSPE. So vaccination will not eliminate SSPE, only no more Measles in the World, PLUS no more vaccinations for the Measles will do that.

“If they run the Measles program like they have run the Polio program, then you can expect the Measles not to be eradicated in this Century.”

Yes, if by “run poorly,” you mean “hampered by antivaccine lies and military sabotage.” Whose fault is that again?

“And you seem to not understand what I wrote….the vaccination for the Measles also causes SSPE. So vaccination will not eliminate SSPE, only no more Measles in the World, PLUS no more vaccinations for the Measles will do that.”

Once measles is eliminated, measles vaccination goes away automatically (when was the last time that someone got a smallpox vaccine?). I don’t know if vaccine makers are paying Christine to prolong the need for their vaccines, but she’s certainly working to ensure their profits (and of course to ensure that children die in agony).

Ms. Random Capitalization is wrong yet again.

“Available epidemiological data, in line with virus genotyping data, do not suggest that measles vaccine virus can cause SSPE. Furthermore, epidemiological data do not suggest that the administration of measles vaccine can accelerate the course of SSPE or trigger SSPE in an individual who would have developed the disease at a later time without immunization. Neither can the vaccine lead to the development of SSPE where it would not otherwise have occurred in a person who has already a benign persistent wild measles infection at the time of vaccination.”

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