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Antivaccine woo attracts “alkaline diet” woo: Elle Macpherson is dating disgraced antivaccine doctor Andrew Wakefield

A recent spate of articles over the last couple of days report that Elle Macpherson is dating an antivaccine “icon,” disgraced antivaccine doctor and scientific fraud Andrew Wakefield. Given her love of “alkaline diet” woo, which she sells through her very Goop-like Wellco website, the attraction shouldn’t be surprising. It is, nonetheless, troubling. It wouldn’t surprise me if Macpherson is antivaccine herself, given that in “alkaline diet” lingo, vaccines are often viewed as “toxic acid” insults that “alkalinization” can reverse.

I realize that this isn’t the sort of topic I usually write about here on the old blog, and, indeed, I did hesitate for a moment before plunging in to discuss the spate of stories about Elle Macpherson being seen canoodling with disgraced antivaccine doctor and scientific fraud Andrew Wakefield—but just for a moment. The reason? It’s a story that involves disgraced British doctor and scientific fraud turned antivaccine icon Andrew Wakefield. When last I mentioned Wakefield, he was being called out on Twitter by Chelsea Clinton, driving his followers into paroxysms of stupid. (Of course, it’s not at all difficult to drive Wakefield’s followers into paroxysms of stupid.)

This time around, the news was more puzzling, which is why I hesitated to comment on this. On the other hand, it’s a perfect opportunity to mention the intersection between celebrity culture and the antivaccine movement, which I’ve done more times than I can remember for Jenny McCarthy, Jim Carrey, Rob Schneider, Robert DeNiro, Mayim Bialik, Kristin Cavallari, Alicia Silverstone, and others, including, unfortunately, Donald Trump back in the days before he was running for President, back when he was just a second rate reality TV star. So what am I to make of this story in The Daily Mail?

Here, we learn that Andrew Wakefield has apparently hooked up with Elle Macpherson:

And from the story:

Model Elle Macpherson has been pictured kissing a former British doctor who was the driving force of the anti-vaxxer movement.

The 54-year-old was seen locking lips with Andrew Wakefield, 61, at Glaser’s organic farm in Miami on Friday.

It comes just over a year after she was awarded $53 million in cash and a $26 million home during her divorce from billionaire Jeffrey Soffer.

Wakefield is a former doctor and researcher who spawned the modern anti-vaccination movement with widely discredited research, claiming that the MMR jab causes autism and bowel disease.

The first thought that came to my mind and to that of many others who read this story was: Ewww. The second thought that came to mind was that, damn, Elle Macpherson has crappy taste in men. The third thought that came to mind was a bit of marvel at how well Andrew Wakefield can sense financial opportunities, how finely tuned he is to finding ways to continue to live in the manner to which he had long ago become accustomed.

Of course, one reason why I found this whole story to be curious was that I had thought that Wakefield was already married. He had a wife. Her name was Carmel. She appeared extensively in the fawning “documentary” about Wakefield released just in late 2017. It turns out that the Wakefields separated last year, and I didn’t know about it:

A source told MailOnline that he separated from his wife Carmel in 2017 and first started seeing Elle in late 2017 after they met at an event in Orlando.

Andrew and Carmel – who is also a doctor – met in the late 1970s while training at St Mary’s Hospital in Paddington, London.

Medicine ran in both families – both have parents who were doctors and brothers who later went into the profession. They have four children – thee boys and a girl.


But the snaps have upset Wakefield’s wife Carmel because they only recently separated, according to her brother.

Finbar O’Donovan said his sister split with Wakefield in April.

But Elle was first pictured looking cosy with Wakefield in November last year with her arm draped over his shoulder at the Doctors Who Rock gala dinner in Florida.

Speaking exclusively to MailOnline Mr O’Donovan said: ‘We had no idea that Andrew was seeing Elle Macpherson.

‘My sister and Andrew only split up a few months ago. They are not divorced yet but they plan to.’

Wakefield? Cheating on his wife? Who’da thunk it? (I need a sarcasm tag.)

So what could be the affinity? I’ve always noted that Wakefield, despite frequently appearing disheveled and unkempt, seems to be pretty attractive to his female antivaccine fans, who view him not just as an antivaccine guru unjustly “persecuted,” but as a bit of a sex symbol. Maybe it’s the whole “bad boy” thing, and, of course, Wakefield can be very charming when he wants to be. Indeed, the aforementioned laudatory documentary, The Pathological Optimist, seems to go out of its way to show scenes of Wakefield being manly, opening with a sequence showing him going to do yoga and finishing with a scene of him chopping wood on his property.

But there could be another reason, as Anna Merlan mentions in an article for Jezebel, characterizing it as “important and slightly alarming” that Macpherson is dating Wakefield:

Macpherson has been professionally known as The Body, for having a body people like to photograph; she’s now the co-founder and public face of a wellness business called WelleCo that sells things like plant protein powder and what they call “elixirs.” Wakefield is known as a walking one-man public health crisis, for his continued insistence that vaccines cause autism. His claims have gotten more dire over the years: he now insists that “80 percent of American boys” will have autism in 15 years, a claim I have personally heard him make on several occasions.

And it is actually newsworthy that Macpherson and Wakefield are dating: One of the core aims of the anti-vaccine movement is spreading their message far and wide with the help of celebrity support. If the relationship lasts, Macpherson could be instrumental in introducing Wakefield and his ideas to a whole new world of monied and influential people—people who are, like her, concerned with the somewhat spongy and ever-more-profitable concept of “wellness.”

You know, like Gwyneth Paltrow‘s Goop.

Perusing the Welleco website, it didn’t take me long at all to find stuff almost as bad as what can be found on Goop. For instance, it turns out that Macpherson is very much into “alkaline living” (or is at least into selling it). I quickly found ridiculous articles, full of scientific nonsense, like:

Does anyone remember Robert O. Young? He was the mail-order naturopath sent to prison for practicing medicine without a license. He also made his name in quackery circles selling his “pH Miracle Living.”

I first discovered Young eleven years ago, and, since then, I’ve discussed his extreme quackery from time to time on this blog. Young claims to be able to treat cancer and—as is the case with so many quacks like him—a wide variety of other serious diseases, such as lupus, type I diabetes (you read that right, not type II diabetes), metastatic prostate cancer, and cancer in general. Not surprisingly, Young is also quite antivaccine, publishing anecdotes from parents who believe their child is “vaccine damaged” and appeals to support antivaccine groups like the National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC). (Many of the links have been taken down but can still be found on Perhaps the most famous incident involving Young was his treatment of Kim Tinkham. At the time she encountered Young in 2008, Tinkham had recently been diagnosed with breast cancer, described as stage III, and was being urged to undergo surgery. She refused. In the end, Tinkham paid the ultimate price for her trust in Young.

Young liked to claim that “alkalinization” is the cure for cancer, AIDS, sepsis, and a number of other conditions. If you really want to get an idea of just how big a quack Young was, though, I suggest that you read read my deconstruction from eleven years ago. The sheer level of quackery encompassed in Young’s ideas beggars belief.

Of course, what Macpherson is peddling is only a less blatant version of the same quackery that Young sold. The ideas and concepts, such as they are, behind her Welleco “alkaline living” are the same as the ideas and concepts behind Young’s “pH Miracle Living,” the exception being that, instead of claims that alkaline diets can cure cancer, Welleco goes with gauzy claims of boosting health and, yes, “wellness.” For instance, here is Simone Laubscher, Elle Macpherson’s personal nutritionist, laying down the pseudoscience:

pH is a term used to describe how acidic or alkaline a substance is. The pH scale is from 1-14 with any reading of 6 or less reflecting acidic and 7 or higher being alkaline. What you eat and drink directly affects your pH levels with some foods raising or lowering the pH. This is based on the mineral content of the food, not the actual pH of that food. For example, lemons have a naturally low pH of around 2, but due to their mineral content they have a wonderful alkalising effect on the body. Let me reveal how this affects your daily life – the bottom line is that disease flourishes in an acidic environment. As always it is all about balance, and the human body was designed to operate at its optimum when body fluids are alkaline at 7-7.5.


The most alkalising ingredients on the planet are super greens (as they contain chlorophyll). The supergreens family is mostly made up of cereal grasses such as wheat grass, barley grass and blue/green algae.

96% of patients had more energy

94% reported having a better mood and feeling more confident

92% had improved sleep pattern

Doctors reading that last sentence in the first paragraph about “alkaline bodily fluids” are no doubt doing facepalms so hard that they’re giving themselves concussions. For one thing, the normal optimal range of pH for the blood, at least, is much, much narrower than that, between 7.35 and 7.45. We have a word for someone with a blood pH of 7.0, and that’s dead. (At least, I’ve never seen anyone survive a pH that low.) As for that bit about lemons, that’s pure BS. Now, it is true that, despite their low pH of around 2, lemons when eaten and metabolized do produce some alkaline byproducts, but they do not raise the pH of blood and other bodily fluids other than urine, whose pH they can slightly raise. The whole thing is complicated. Basically, lemon juice may have an alkalizing effect on your urine. However, contrary to the premise of the alkaline diet, it has very little influence on the pH of your blood, and foods don’t influence our blood pH. Basically, alkaline diet quacks are unduly impressed by the ability of a diet of vegetables, fruits, and greens to produce higher pH urine than a diet rich in meats. That’s just the kidneys doing their job and regulating the pH of the blood.

Laubscher claims to have a clinical trial that shows that “96% of patients had more energy, 94% reported having a better mood and feeling more confidant and 92% had improved sleep patterns after taking THE SUPER ELIXIR.” Is there any reference to studies in the peer-reviewed medical literature? What do you think? Of course not!

Elsewhere, Nikki Heyder lays on even more alkaline woo pseudoscience:

An acidic body is a by-product of today’s increasingly acidic diet of sugar, alcohol, red meat, dairy products and coffee, teamed with pollution and stress.

This is indistinguishable from quotes by Robert O. Young himself, and her video doubles down on the same nonsense:

And, of course, you can fix all the problems that “acid” causes by buying Welleco’s SUPER ELIXIR.

So is Elle Macpherson’s Welleco as bad as Goop? From what I can tell, probably not. It seems to be rather a one trick pony, with “alkaline diet” being its main thing and its SUPER ELIXIR products being its main product line, while the rest of its health recommendations remain fairly standard: exercise, get enough sleep, and the like. But don’t forget that the alkaline diet nonsense being peddled by Welleco is based on ideas identical to those promoted by the dangerous quack Robert O. Young. Welleco just doesn’t push those ideas, which are based on a misunderstanding of human physiology and pathology, into the realms of curing cancer or AIDS. Also, there’s no evidence that the “alkaline diet” can cure or prevent any disease.

Merlan notes:

We don’t know if Macpherson is a vaccine “skeptic” herself (I have reached out to WelleCo for comment on that subject and will update should I hear back). What we do know, though, is that celebrities have an unfortunately large impact on how people think of vaccines.


All of this is probably an extreme overreaction to some photos of Wakefield and Macpherson snogging at a farmer’s market, but given the enormous measles outbreak in Europe right now and the fact that some California schools still have “dangerously low” vaccination rates due to anti-vaccine parents, a small amount of freaking out is perhaps warranted.

I couldn’t find out either (Google searches of her and anything to do with vaccines are now dominated by dozens of hits about her dating Wakefield). However, I can’t help but note that “alkaline diet” proponents are often antivaccine. For instance, Robert O. Young is very antivaccine, and has declared that “true immunity” is found in diet and lifestyle, “not in a vaccine which are all acidic and poisonous to the body.” It’s also not hard to find examples of advocates of “alkaline diets” suggesting that such diets can “heal vaccine injury.” So it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if Macpherson is herself antivaccine, given that she’s swallowed the alkaline diet, hook, line, and sinker. Even if she isn’t antivaccine, she could be another celebrity “in” for Wakefield to insinuate himself into communities of famous people to spread his pernicious message. Unfortunately, he is quite good at that. There’s a fine (and sometimes nonexistent) line between “wellness” and antivaccine views.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

155 replies on “Antivaccine woo attracts “alkaline diet” woo: Elle Macpherson is dating disgraced antivaccine doctor Andrew Wakefield”

At the very least, she could add to the cash flow he used to get from his anti-vaccine admirers and allow him to live in style, maybe even sue a couple more critics with ill-founded lawsuits.

I don’t know much about her, but it may have nothing to do with her interest in wellness. He’s a good salesperson, and charm is part of that. She may just have been caught the way many of his admirers were.

Oh, Orac…

“When last I mentioned Wakefield, he was being called out by, of all people, Chelsea Clinton, driving his followers into paroxysms of stupid”.

What do you mean “of all people”? Clinton has legit public health credentials:

Also, it is wise to never take medical advice from actors, lawyers, engineers, econ professors, fashion models, journalists, computer scientists, models, physicists or doctors who have been legally stripped of their right to practice medicine. Just sayin’.

One exception here: Had I ever met and been offered medical advice from Jacob Bronowski, I would have considered it carefully. He was the great explainer – he could even tell why there was a penguin on the telly (Five, no, ten Rockin’ points to anyone who knows how I know that.).

I believe it did, but it shouldn’t be confused with the giant electric penguin.
Actually, Bronowski did a lot more than that.
For those who don’t know, he was a mathematical physicist who contributed to the Allied war effort. Beyond that, he was a recognized authority on the history and philosophy of science, on the poetry and art of William Blake, and on Leonardo da Vinci. His triumph was his TV series. “The Ascent of Man” was a groundbreaking attempt to show how the history of science and the history of culture intertwined, and courses for college credit were built around it.
He came across as warm, human, and wise, and I can’t recommend his works highly enough.

Because “it’s 5 o’clock, and time for the penguin on top of your television set to explode.” ” ‘Ow did he know that was going to ‘appen?”

Anyone want to wager that Wakefraud’s disciples have already kicked Carmel to the curb in favour of a potential new face of their anti-vaxx movement?

You mean they haven’t already?

Yes, Elle Macpherson could be another Jenny McCarthy. As I said in the post, it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if she’s antivax or at least antivax-sympathetic or -adjacent. In the lingo of “alkaline diet” and “alkaline living” woo, vaccines are bad because they are “acidic,” and alkaline diets are often part of the “detoxification” routine to heal “vaccine injury.” The same is true of much of the “wellness” movement off of which Macpherson is profiting; vaccines are bad (or at least not nearly as good as people such as you or I portray them). If anyone finds any evidence of her having antivax proclivities, please let me know. Unfortunately, Googling her name and anything vaccine-related only brings up a whole lot of stories about her dating Andrew Wakefield that go on for page after page of hits.

You mean they haven’t already?

Heh. The anti-vaxxers have been quiet on this one. They worshipped Carmel alongside Wakefraud but I doubt that adoration will usurp their Jesus’ new-found cash cow.

You can add “-wakefield” to filter the search results. She was involved with a charity that included screening for cervical cancer, so I’d look for Gardasil. I can’t do it on this tablet, though.

@Science Mom, yes, oh yes, kicking Carmel Wakefield to the curb has started. I was actually betting Tommey the big mouth would weigh in asap. Didn’t she too move to Austin? Wasn’t Wakefield’s wife one of her good friends?

From today’s Daily Mail:

Polly Tommey states:

“It’s too bad but these things happen.”
“Why stay in a marriage when you are unhappy?”
“Elle is such a sweetheart. She’s got him on these shakes now for his lunch and dinner. He’s lost weight, he’s swapped his dodgy jackets for linens, he looks fitter than ever.”
“He’s portrayed as some horrible child killer but it’s bullsh**t. He’s just a lovely guy who only wants to protect children. He deserves happiness as much as anyone.”
“I actually think she’s lucky to have him. They are really, really happy together. He’s deliriously in love and we are all thrilled about that.”

Polly Tommey has always been a crazy asshole imo but she has just proven that fact even further.

I’m sure that he’ll be VERY happy in Elle’s palatial estate : see photo, the Daily Fail, 19 June, 2017.
You can park your yacht right out front and just jump into the pool.

Actually glad you posted this. I initially read this as Doctor Who Rock. As a huge Whovian, I was very concerned that the good doctor had gone over to the dark side!!

There is something very strange about the picture of Andy and Ellie kissing.

Ellie has her left eye open looking away from Andy, and the camera.

Andy’s right eye appears to be closed in an effort to amplify the touch and taste sensation of the kiss.

For a perfect woo kiss, both set of eyes are closed for heightened intimacy and pleasure.

@ Andy and Ellie,

Best wishes for happiness and good health.

The real crime is that it wasnt Paltrow instead. Then we could’ve called them “Goop and Dupe” as a couple.

I just read about this yesterday…they showed a picture of his recently built, cheap looking house in Texas. I was wondering what rock this man had crawled under since I hadn’t read about him lately. Why do they all end up in Austin Texas? Anyway, he is vile for many things but dumping his wife of 31 years shows what a ragging narcissist he truly is… surprise. Elle M. is just as bad. I read she was dumped by her last husband who was a billionaire. What does she see or need in this unwashed maggot? Who in the hell finds him attractive? Baffling. Finally, notice no word from Stagliano, Katie Wright, Age of Autism… you know, the usual worshippers of this A**hole.

I’ve looked over the usual suspects’ sites and so far- no mention of Elle**. Perhaps they’re trying to figure out how she fits into the narrative of dear Maverick Andy and how Carmel doesn’t any more.
That includes the usually celebrity worshipping Rossi ( @ kimrossi1111) who uses her twitter to basically do free adverts for Jenny’s various shows, products and husbands, herself and for Howard’s pals.

IIRC, MacPherson has been associated with “healthy living” prior to her involvement with Welleco tm – but that might have been non-commercial, just that she advocated a healthy diet, exercise etc.

People might say that sceptics are behaving like gossip columnists and that they should just leave the happy couple alone BUT
seriously, this guy has presented himself as a devoted family man in self-produced and other films RECENTLY so why not?

-btw- Christine Rose- I am still on the fence about whether he is “good looking” or not: I suppose his activities cast such a giant shadow on him that affects whatever might be attractive esthetically – plus, he’s not dark and Mediterranean, so forget him

** except for Jake’s twitter wherein he disses Ms Merlan

I’d say that he can sometimes pass but is fundamentally not good looking.

Denice Walter….can I add to this that I find it disgusting that Rossi (guessed she dumped the married name when SHE got dumped for another woman…Mark Stagliano posts a lot of happy pics with his new girlfriend!) uses her twitter to promote Jenny’s new booze (Blondie or something??) and has given her autistic 22 year old daughter Jenny’s booze and posted her drinking it. I truly question her guardianship decisions here. Giving a severely autistic person booze, when they do not understand the consequences of what they may feel from this, is revolting. And I thought Stagliano/Rossi is so hell bent on health, biomed, not even allowing gluten to cross her daughter’s lips, blah, blah….but Jenny’s booze is ok to give her daughter? What a hypocrite and her constant advertisements, in order to be known as Jenny’s friend, is embarrassing and desperate!!

Right, I saw that too:
I think she also gave the oldest one a drink for her birthday, noting that she was 23. Rossi did say it was only a little but I wonder as well if it’s a good idea to get autistic adults to like alcohol.
Rossi cries poverty but then buys expensive drinks?
Also for a gluten free advocate she bakes loads of cakes and brioches/ croissants

It appears that Mr Stagliano lives very near my relatives.
But I’d never bother the man- he has enough on his plate already.


I’m soon to be 42 years old. At 27, I was brewing beer in an university lab. I am also autistic so yeah, I agree that autistics in general should be allowed to taste and / or drink alcohol. I do know that context is everything (was she induced by her mother or she asked for the beer) but 23 years old should be allowed to drink alcohol regardless of their mental or neurodevelopmental diagnostic just as we should presume competence first.

Me, I do enjoy getting wasted on booze and whisky from time to time but I also did a metric ton of work toward knowing the biochemistry of beer brewing and currently, I’m working on a managerial accounting simulation system for different sized brewery using real data as much as possible so beer is as much a topic for intellectual stimulation as a way to get wasted (which happen twice a month for the most part).


He reminds me of Robert Mitchum. I dunno, everyone can name some supposedly hot people that don’t appeal.

There is a tremendous opportunity here for an experimental test of homeopathy. If like cures like then one day soon they’ll both wake up and discover they’ve become rational, sensible human beings.

I see that two former execs of the “vitamins giant” Swisse have bought a big stake in Welleco.

Swisse is known for using celebrities in marketing (including Nicole Kidman).

Maybe Wakefield will start turning up in Welleco ads, touting ingestable plant products as the natural, safe way to boost immunity. His devoted antivax followers would probably be eager buyers.

Oh Dangerous One:

Not only immunity: Welleco ads say that the elixir will create “beautiful skin” and several testimonials at their website attest to its great effects on hair, skin, nails** and against “bloating”. So perhaps Andy can parade his fabulous looks as a spokesmodel,

Anti-vaxxers can then reap the benefits of beauty as well as enriching their idol.

-btw- woo-meisters sell many green products, red/ blue/ berry products, omega 3 products claiming the same. Enhancing appearance is one of their selling points- although most of them don’t look as good as Elle.

** lots of vitamins advertised for this

For some reason, my first impression of your comment looked to me like “His devoted anthrax followers.”
I don’t think we need Sigmund Freud to explain that one.

The Jezebel article links to interviews where she claims to use powdered rhino horn to stay young. WTF?

The only one who won’t get old, is the rhino involved.

I would love these people to have a nice conversation with a rhino, so they can explain why they need their horn. And no guns allowed.
I hate it if animals are sacrifised for a load of bs.

I’m South African. Rhinoceri are endagngered. The use of rhino horn in medicine angers me. It’s just keratin. This is very much a sore point for me.

There are easier sources of keratin, like, say, your own hair (not digestible, could make you very sick) or your fingernails.

People who eat bits of endangered animals should be treated with just as much (or more) disdain as that dentist who shot the lion a few years ago. At least sometimes trophy hunters stop after they get their trophy. People who imagine it’s “medicine” will never stop.

Anonymous Coward: Ehh… My first reaction was “hey karma!”, but then I read that most poachers aren’t the Captain Planet image of the strapping white dude, but rather are the impoverished locals who don’t have a lot of options on how to make a living. So yes, it’s 100% wrong, but I’ll be angrier at the people who consume the horn (and drive the price way up) than the people looking for a major payday. Dry up the market for rhino “medicine” and you’ll reduce the poaching (not eliminate).

I am sure the rhinos were free range, non-GMO fed, vegan, and died of natural causes after a long, stress free life, having their chi balanced by reiki masters every other week, knelt to her and begged her to take their horns. Well, maybe the first three.

They’ll probably go after narwhal horns next. Keratin is so common to vertebrates that they’ll never run out of endangered exotics to slaughter. Maybe they’ll start on armadillos, in which case I hope they spend a lot of time in contact with the ‘dillos’ feet.

They allready are doing pangolins, another endangered species.

It has to be endangered species, otherwise they could use the horns of cows that are dehorned.

Except that a Narwhal horn is a tooth and a form of ivory. Not that such biological details matter to true believers.

I have tried selling my toenail clippings but the lack of enthusiasm is deafening.

Y’all, I think pretty poaching of endangered species is abhorrent, and I think the demand is absolutely disgusting, but I think maybe we can consider the economic desperation that drives certain people to poaching and not blame it all on the individual people doing it. Markets are a powerful and coercive force.

Fully agree. Most poachers aren’t the Captain Planet image of the strapping white dude wearing fur and teeth, but desperate locals who need to make a living.

Isn’t deer antler a “medicine”? ‘Cause they shed those every year for free.

I once had a deer try to shed its antlers in my chest. I narrowly avoided testing the medicine’s therapeutic effects. In its teeny tiny brain it must have decided I was competing for its doe grazing nearby. Trail running during mating season can be hazardous, as are natural cures in their raw, unrefined state.

See the comments from a few years ago

I suppose this is what happens when I only get a single sleep cycle.

The demand is the greater part of the problem. In the destination countries, it isn’t even only superstition that drives demand, but also conspicuous consumption. It’s quite the status symbol to spend outlandish sums of money for something so useless to the buyer.
It’s not only poverty that causes poaching. Various criminal syndicates, guerrillas and insurgents raise money through poaching, just as they do by trafficking in drugs, arms,or artifacts, and by enslaving people to dig for diamonds or coltan.

Let’s see:
Elle Macpherson –
$53 million cash divorce award
$26 million mansion
already into alt-med woo.
She’s the anti-vax grifter’s dream come true.

… and here’s ol’ Andy Wakefraud nuzzling up to her like the lamprey he is…

Christine Rose: In what universe does Andy look like Robert Mitchum? That’s doing a grave disservice to Mr. Mitchum.

Someone in comments somewhere, Daily Mail I believe, said Wakefield looked like a slightly younger version of The Old Man/father from the TV show Pawn Stars who just died last week. LMAO. That’s about right!

“In what universe does Andy look like Robert Mitchum? That’s doing a grave disservice to Mr. Mitchum.”
Yes, but you have to admit he’s more sinister than Mitchum at his creepy-crawliest.

I thought Jesse Ventura was “The Body”..
Not that Ventura, McPherson, or Wakefield could entice me more than yesterday’s oatmeal. If anaphrodisiac isn’t a word, then I’m coining it here to describe the effect any of them could have on me.

I thought Cindy Crawford was ‘The Body’? I’m usually amazed that anti-vaxxers look positively normal when I see an actual photo. Wakefield is the exception, he always looked as disreputable as his actions.

Old Rockin’ Dave, why don’t they just share and pool fingernail clippings?

Because they are not from an endangered species.
It has to be an endangered species, because that makes it special and more expensive, which creates a bigger effect.

“big, long, and powerful weapon”

As an alternative they can use powdered ICBM. It also has the advantage of scarcity. However, the poachers will have more to worry about than lions.

As an alternative they can use powdered ICBM.

Just so long as William Leonard Pickard is in charge of manufacturing.

Renate, I’m on my last legs, so I could be “endangered,” and I’d be more than willing to charge an exorbitant amount of money for my hair and nail clippings – I’d have something to leave the grandchildren.

But…I doubt that I am “special” enough.

Someone mentioned woo-meisters in Austin..

well, maybe some are switching to FLORIDA:**
think about it:
Erin Elizabeth and Mercola ( part time) , Brian Clement, Sayer Ji, Gary Null ( part time), Jake Crosby and perhaps…
ANDY and Elle

** new meaning to @ florida man

If Andy moves to Florida full time I firmly believe Polly Tommey and the other oddballs will follow. It’s like a strange cult that moves as a swarm.
Katie Wright’s Dad lives in Florida full time now I believe so Katie, part of their inner click, is already there quite a bit. I have no doubt K Stagliano would follow if she could afford the move but maybe she needs to be closer to NYC to jump when beckoned by her hero Jenny Mc. It’s all so nauseating.

Carmel Wakefield should write a book about this creepy group and their true inner workings.

Oh my thoughts exactly about Carmel:

she could write quite a book.
She left her career/ life in the UK to support Andy and now gets left by him.
( but maybe she’s part of the scam and has to keep quiet)
Her brother seems angry enough to spill perhaps.

She left her career/ life in the UK to support Andy and now gets left by him.

I would guess her next stop after the divorce will be back to the UK. Wakefraud is still riding a Green Card, right?

If only adultery were a crime of moral turpitude in any of the relevant locations.

I would agree, but I thought Tommey et al got property in which they were starting an autism community – am I wrong? – which might make moving harder.

Regarding Tommey’s autism community project… the last I read in 2/2017 the Austin Monitor had an article which stated, “the future residential facility for adults with autism is in limbo after a vote by a city of Austin Commission.”
The whole project was in jeopardy apparently. I have no idea what the status is currently. Maybe they can move the whole project to one of Elle’s vast properties! Somehow I feel Wakefield’s priorities no longer include Tommey and friends. In the last few days Wakefield looks like a slimey grifter who just hit the jackpot.

Thanks for the update. That makes sense.

Ms. Tommey sounded very supportive in her interview with Daily Mail. I wonder if she stays that way.

ORD: Yes, but you have to admit he’s more sinister than Mitchum at his creepy-crawliest.

Yup. After all, Mitchum was only there to entertain, whereas Wakefield believes his own bullshit. (Also, since Mitchum grew up in the polio era, and almost certainly had measles at some point, I imagine his reaction would be something like ‘what the hell?’)
Personally, I think it’s some kind of publicity stunt; even though Macpherson’s washed up, she could do better. Wakers isn’t that attractive and he’s not that rich; it’ll never last.

I expect that Macpherson will soon learn the hard way why dating a married man is a bad idea: if he cheats on his wife with you, he will cheat on you with somebody else. Macpherson should, of course, already know this, but as noted upthread, there is a reason she is known as “The Body” and not “The Mind”.

Part of the problem is that people who were in high school or older when the Salk vaccine became available are dying off, so as a society we are losing the firsthand knowledge of what life without vaccines was like. (My mother, who is in this group, is approaching 80.) Most people in the West have never known a world in which public swimming pools routinely close in the middle of hot summers because of a polio outbreak, or people routinely die or become permanently disabled due to diseases like polio. So it’s easy for charlatans like Wakefield, Macpherson, and far too many others to convince parents that the consequences of not vaccinating are small. Sadly, I think it’s going to take a large-scale epidemic to convince a lot of people otherwise, and of course by that time it will be too late for most of them, not to mention the affected children.

I have not forgotten. I may be the youngest person born and raised in the US to have had poliomyelitis that you will ever encounter in any venue. While the deficits it left me with are subtle, they have contributed to some of the problems I have had, both social and physical.

I got a great example of how common VPDs used to be yesterday. A friend posted to Facebook (as you do) that her middle kid had Fifths disease. I had to look it up, but it’s kind of amazing that there used to be so many rash-fever diseases in children that no one even bothered to come up with a good name for this one, it’s just, you know, the fifth one, not too serious. (Compared to scarlet fever, measles and rubella.)

Eric Lund:Part of the problem is that people who were in high school or older when the Salk vaccine became available are dying off, so as a society we are losing the firsthand knowledge of what life without vaccines was like.

Well, that is a problem, but there are still a lot of people around who were alive before the MMR became commonly used. My own parents for example. I think part of the problem too is that (white) people don’t think older generations have anything to offer them, tune out advice and are also not often in contact with older members of their families. Another problem too is the lack of reading in American society. Very few Americans have encountered any sort of media where measles or rubella or mumps are mentioned.

Hi All–

Just a brief word from me here. Elle McPherson made one of the best films in the history of cinema. 1994’s “Sirens” Well worth watching.

And, about 8-10 years ago, Ms. McPherson made a regrettable rhino horn joke with an interviewer who asked her about staying young. She later clarified that she would never do that and condemns that awful myth.

Regarding Dr. Wakefield and Ms. McPherson, I hope they both find happiness. Even though I don’t agree with many of Andy’s vaccine statements, I think he might actually have had good intentions.



Really Dr. Gordon? I’m sure the wife he dumped after 31 years (you know, the one who stood by his side through some very tough times) would appreciate you wishing him happiness with his new mistress. I’ll take a pass on your suggestion to watch some movie featuring Elle McPherson. I have no doubt the majority of people have more intelligent things to do with their time. Aging, self absorbed models really don’t hold my interest.

Even though I don’t agree with many of Andy’s vaccine statements, I think he might actually have had good intentions.

Good intentions? Like cooking his research for a big fat payoff from anti-vax lawyers? Like patenting an alternative vaccine for use after he discredited the standard MMR with a paper based on falsehoods?

Good intentions, perhaps, if the intentions were monetary…

I actually looked up Sirens. It took some searching because the first list had TV series of the same name overlapping the year.
It had Hugh Grant who was hot back then playing a priest(?!) and Sam Neill who’s usually watchable.

Elle McPherson gets to play a model !!!

At a user rating of 5.8 out of 10 and a metascore of 64, it’s probably not on very many people’s top movie lists.

The advertised series, A Very English Scandal, also has Hugh Grant and looks a lot more interesting.

But, Sirens is free on Amazon right now if you’re looking for a period sex romp.

At a user rating of 5.8 out of 10 and a metascore of 64, it’s probably not on very many people’s top movie lists.

An unkind reviewer at the time remarked that “Sirens” might better have been titled “Hooters”.

I saw “Sirens” at the theaters. I don’t remember why my wife and I went to see it. Having seen it (although not having seen it again for 24 years), I can safely say that the only reason to watch the movie is to enjoy the copious nude and seminude shots of Elle Macpherson, Kate Fischer, and Portia De Rossi. I remember the rest of the movie as being dull as hell.

For some reason I thought of the 1969 version of Women in Love, which is only available on 3rd party DVD’s. It has Alan Bates, Oliver Reed and Glenda Jackson and scored a 7.5. It’s been too many years now, but the BBC 2 parter from 2011 looked interesting.

Regarding Dr. Wakefield and Ms. McPherson, I hope they both find happiness.

I hope she kicks him to the curb when something better comes along.

Uh huh, sure, whatever. The only good that might come of hand Andy’s philandering is that he might drag his cloud of anti-vaccine pestilence away from Austin to Miami, giving Austin’s horrible immunization rates a chance to recover. Not that I’d wish Wakefraud’s presence on any part of planet Earth since he brings VPD outbreaks and death wherever he goes.

“Elle McPherson made one of the best films in the history of cinema.1994’s “Sirens.”

Please tell me this doctor is being sarcastic! Seriously, in the HISTORY of cinema??? Is this doctor out of his mind?
Wow. Does he practice somewhere because if so… that is worrisome.

Oh yes. Just do a web search for Dr Jay Gordon.

He even wrote a book.

Preventing Autism presents a comprehensive program that covers:

The latest research on the causes of ASD and the relationship between genetic factors and toxins that trigger developmental delays.

How to reduce toxic exposure from your food, home, clothing, and cleaning and personal care products.

The male biological clock. Recent research shows that mutations in older sperm contribute significantly to the incidence of autism. The book includes advice on keeping sperm healthy.

Planning a nursery that is a healthy nest.

Dietary guidance for moms-to-be, babies, and nursing mothers.

Dr. Gordon’s sensible approach to decisions about vaccinations.

Preventing Autism offers a plan for eliminating harmful chemicals from your everyday life that can disrupt the development of your baby. Dr. Gordon believes we can combat autism one family at a time.

So if you don’t remember to eat your kale, your baby may be autistic!?

And if the nursery isn’t healthy enough, you may turn into a refrigerator mom!? /sarcasm

I’ve seen no evidence to support the claim that Wakefraud had any intentions other than money and glory for himself. He committed fraud, performed unethical surgeries on children, and lied about it.

“Dr.” Jay: 1994’s “Sirens” Well worth watching.

Snnnrk. I was pretty young then, but I seem to remember that it was a massive flop. I’d recommend that you’d watch some good movies, but I suspect most of them would be way over your head and you’d be lost at the first plot twist. Seriously, were you hiding behind the door when taste and intelligence were handed out? Or did you sacrifice them both for that sweet moolah?

@ PGP:

I think that Dr Jay may be watching the movie for other reasons than plot.

Personally I might watch it for Sam Neill – not Hugh Grant.

-btw- it’ good to see you back

Kim Rossi ( AoA) has responded to the news about Andy with an article about gossips ( it’s nobody’s business) and bullies.
So I guess we’re the bad guys here.
She also discusses her own divorce.
She must be torn because she seems to celebrate Carmel.

I’ve also looked over more material on Elle- some of it good-
from Wikipedia: she’s been involved in charities like RED and UNICEF
she’s had relationships with bigger fish than Andy in the past.( well known actors, singers, billionaires).
so maybe a 60-something better known actor or director will come along AND…

I personally think that news like this is appropriate because shows the personality of someone who has had a history of deception and tomfoolery which resulted in increases in the rate of VPDs. Yet fans continue to trust him..

More of the…. throwing Carmel under the bus and defending the vile Wakefield has surfaced today from the usual minions.

Today Kim Stagliano (sorry Rossi) from Age of Autism, in her typical passive aggressive way, seemed to blame Carmel. She complimented Carmel yet then wrote the following,

“This week news broke about our friend Andrew Wakefield.”
“Here’s a news flash for you, during my Google Divorce U Education I learned that it takes more than 7 years to get a divorce from the moment you think, This is something I should consider, to the day a judge gives you back your maiden name. And women initiate 70% of divorces.”

Pathetic. Just pathetic. Instead of acknowledging what a S bag Wakefield is for obviously dumping his wife Stagliano (sorry Rossi) takes it upon herself to surmise that Carmel must have been thinking about this for a long time due to the fact this was Stagliano’s (sorry Rossi) experience and research from Google U shows us this. As a side note, since when does Stagliano (sorry Rossi) care about research?

Ummm, no Kim. It is clear that they just had a million dollar house built in Austin and Carmel really didn’t see this coming. Her brother said she was surprised to see pictures of Wakefield with McPherson.

Tommey, Stagliano (sorry Rossi) and the rest of the pack of minions look utterly pathetic defending this man.

Also please note that Stagliano (sorry Rossi) wants everyone to know that she took back her maiden name and is no longer Kim Stagliano (sorry Rossi). Got it Kim. As if anyone cares.

Right. And she doesn’t have the skill to manage mixed feelings about people so I imagine she’ll eventually see Carmel as the REAL problem because she idolises Andy.

She continues to self-promote as a 2 black belt, karate teacher, writer, “executive director/ managing editor”, autism warrior mother whatever who is POOR** and TOO BUSY to follow social media*** and news.
HOWEVER she knows exactly what Howard Stern and Jenny McCarthy and their guests say EVERY DAY on radio. Those shows add up to several hours IIRC. And she buys their products, goes to comedy shows. Not that poor, I’d say.

** I doubt that martial arts will pay much and don’t her daughters get financial assistance and spend time in day groups?
*** -btw- I have no presence on social media although I read a few- maybe 5- twitter accounts of people I like and dislike

My problem with Stagliano is the fact that she is a grown woman yet has the maturity of an 18 year old and constantly plays the “pity me” card. She worships Howard Stern and faithfully listens to that show and knows all the players, some personally. When the hell does she find time for that? This is a man who, along with his sidekicks, calls people retarded and makes fun of the disabled yet she’ll look the other way despite having three daughters on the spectrum, she worships Jenny McCarthy (I don’t think any words are needed to describe why that is disturbing…it’s obvious), she used to worship Jim Carey until Jenny broke up with him, she now kisses the ass of Wakefield despite the fact the man is a slime ball who dumped his wife for an aging supermodel who will dump him in a NY minute.

Also, the fact that she continually claims poverty is getting old. You’re right, she seems to have plenty of money for shows and even went to ROME for ten days this past spring. WHO paid for that?? She can’t be that poor. She just wants people to pity her. She also claimed on Twitter that she got one dollar per year in alimony. Two pieces of advice for Kim:

Clearly her “Google U Divorce Education” didn’t help her understand much! Maybe she should have consulted an actual expert.
If she did have an attorney that person must have been one shitty lawyer. I get this sinking feeling that the idiot represented herself however. She was married for something like 28 years and accepts one dollar per year. She should have spent more time on her case rather than listening to the Howard Stern and Jenny McCarthy show.

She also claimed on Twitter that she got one dollar per year in alimony.

I doubt that New Jersey law regarding spousal support works like that.

if any readers think that we’re MEAN …
I venture that scaring parents into NOT vaccinating their kids is a LOT meaner**
– especially to the kids who can get sick and be miserable for weeks as I was many yeas ago.

** AoA does that every day of the week for years

I’ve read most of these comments and no one has pointed out the extreme hypocrisy of a 54 year old woman who could pass for 40 or less who claims “natural” everything, but has been under the knife more times than she can count.

Based on the recent photos, I don’t think she could pass for 54, much less 40.

But this is so common amongst woo-:folk
dyed hair**, plastic surgery, cosmetics and a claim of natural beauty.

I read a few of her health/ beauty recommendations in the past few days : some woo-ful, some not:
she likes to spend a total of 30 minutes a day ( split in two sessions) IN THE SUN
OK, I know she’s an Aussie but seriously, isn’t that a lot? I imagine that she’s some sort of European and lives in MIAMI not the same latitude ( neither is AUS)
she also does “dry brushing” – I guess that removes all of the dried out skin.

She likes to exercise by walking in sea water: I’d do that

** Paltrow is a dual process blonde; Elle probably dyes her hair a medium shade and has balayage ( hair painting with bleach)
so both use powerful chemicals to lighten hair.

she likes to spend a total of 30 minutes a day ( split in two sessions) IN THE SUN

I visited my dad’s timeshare in Daytona Beach with him last summer. Some of those folks were mamesh burnt umber. Hell, I wound up with melasma on my forearms once the tan faded.

she likes to spend a total of 30 minutes a day ( split in two sessions) IN THE SUN
OK, I know she’s an Aussie but seriously, isn’t that a lot?

Is it? I was of the understanding that 15 or 20 minutes in the sun without sunscreen is bare minimum for Vitamin D production. I’m not really a sun worshiper myself, and lately I haven’t been outside much because of the foot, but I would say on a typical non-injured day I spend 30 minutes or so in the sun just as a matter of course. (I know sunscreen is recommended, but I’ve honestly never bothered; I’m not terribly fair, and I’ve sunburned maybe two or three times in my life.)

@ JP:

She DOES live in Miami: which is 20-odd degrees N. latitude.
I’ve got burned walking back and forth to cars in Dania or the Keys in April or March with sunscreen. The sun was brutal.
I AM rather white BUT still…

I mention it because she is so concerned with how she looks.

I live in Albuquerque, about 35 degrees north, but a mile high. A quick check shows high risk of overexposure from 11 to 4 tomorrow when I’ll be running in and out with occasional walking around outside for my work.

I didn’t find a conversion of uv factor to time exposure, but it’s good that I do my aerobic walking well before that time.

Yeah, I suppose the UV index would be generally higher in Florida and I’ve always lived pretty far north.

Still though, I took a look at the UV map of the US just out of curiosity, and it looks like 15 minutes in the sun at a time (depending on time of day) should be fine and safe.

Not that I’m arguing about it, it just struck me kind of odd that 30 minutes total in the sun would be a lot.

JP, yeah, it really depends on where you are. 15 minutes in Seattle? Probably fine. 15 minutes in Palm Springs? Hope you were wearing SPF 15. 15 minutes at noon in Costa Rica? Hoo boy, that’s a burn. That close to the equator the sun is a force, it’s so intense it can feel like you are being physically pushed by the heat/light.

(I’m also an easily crispy critter, so I’m all about the sunscreen.)

Jay Gordon: “Even though I don’t agree with many of Andy’s vaccine statements”

One wonders which of Wakefield’s antivax opinions Jay Gordon actually disagrees with (remember, Jay for years had a gushing tribute to Andy on his website in which he related hearing Wakefield speak and how much it impressed him).

Fear not, Jay’s website still preserves much of its original character, including promotion of colloidal silver as an “immune booster”, touting homeopathy for ear infections and a guest article slamming water fluoridation as “a massive toxocological experiment”.

Gotta keep those woo-prone SoCal mommies happy.

DW: I think that Dr Jay may be watching the movie for other reasons than plot.

I agree. Orac’s recollection makes me think that the movie might be, as they say ‘plot, what plot?’ Nice to be back; I had things to do and didn’t feel like arguing with the self-proclaimed only black guy on the internet.

Dr. Hickie: Doesn’t Miami have enough problems?

Seven years? I mean, I’m no lawyer, but I’d hope that people can get unhitched quicker than that. Maybe it just took Ms. Rossi that long and she’s generalizing. Also, Ms. Rossi doesn’t seem like the type to have many (or any) female friends in real life, so it’s unsurprising she’d champion her guru over his ex-wife.

I read this elsewhere yesterday but wanted a legit source SO
from The Real Deal today:
Elle bought a little place in a Coral Gables GATED COMMUNITY for 8 million USD ( with a bank loan, secretly) photos.

I guess that’ll make it harder for admirers, fanbois and haters to pursue Andy.

A few things…

I think that Rossi and Stagliano both lived in Fairfield Cy, CT until the separation/ divorce:
he’s now in Malverne, NY- not a low rent district by any means as my cousin can attest. He seems to have a consulting business there too.
The two locales aren’t really that close physically.

about the “One Dollar a year”: I don’t know but she’s claimed elsewhere that they lost their house, she lives in a rental house, had no money for food at times, etc.( but she studied karate for several years in order to get 2 black belts).
Wouldn’t her daughters – all over 18- each get a disability payment?

Like the Raptor, we scoff and ridicule, not just because we’re mean or heartless:

if Andy and anti-vaxxers like Rossi did not spread false medical information and harmful ideas, none of us would ever even mention them.
BUT Andy and Rossi, being who they are, mislead people and mis-educate the public.
I feel it apropriate to reveal how they live, behave and think. Perhaps their followers might re-thik their devotion.

I read recently that 30% of people surveyed believed that they know more about medical issues than do DOCTORS.

I would venture that celebrities and woo-meisters have influenced the public this way- the uninformed fall prey to their campaign of dis-education, fantasy and Dunning-Kruger.


Yes, Rossi lives in Trumball CT and the ex moved to Malverne. His girlfriend is from there so I assume that is why he moved there. Rossi rents a very nice home in Trumball. She must have money for that. She takes karate lessons, travels, goes to shows in NYC and so on. Must have money for that. She buys a lot of expensive food and drinks (unless Jenny gives her the booze for free to advertise on twitter). She traveled to Rome this past spring for something like ten days. I was very surprised when she announced that as she claims she can’t afford anything.

The daughters would receive SSI (once over 21) and Medicaid. That is not a lot of money however. Rossi must get her money from somewhere. She is not as poor as she claims. Her Dad was a dentist or an orthodontist (one or the other.) She has also talked extensively about attending a very exclusive private high school when she was young. Clearly she came from some money. I personally feel she loves the attention she gets for claiming she is so poor. IMO she is full of a lot of BS!


typo!…it’s Trumbull, CT. She writes often that she lives in this town. Nothing is private with Kim so she invites criticism.
The children would receive SSI and Medicaid at age 18 (the age of adulthood) not 21. They would age out of school at age 21. In some states they age out at 21 and other states at age 22. I believe it is 21 in CT. After that they would go into an adult program funded by the state. She writes regularly that Mia and Gianna (two oldest) are in adult day programs. The younger one is still in school. I think she is 17 or 18.

Regarding Rossi’s claim of one dollar per year for alimony:

From her twitter June 7th:

“What’s an appropriate gift to give myself for a first anniversary?” (meaning her divorce) “And I can claim my $1 a year alimony. So maybe Cold Duck instead of Dom? Find your strength. Breathe. Fear is a liar. Happy Divorce.”

She words everything in order to make sure everyone knows she’s poor and has climbed some kind of divorce mountain no one else has climbed. Here we are to pity her because she has to drink Cold Duck and not Dom. She makes sure we all know that.

On April 21st she wrote the following in response to one of her fellow Stern fans asking how she was doing:

“Hey Now. All well? Was in Italy for 10 days. All good!”

But we should pity her because she is poor. This woman is full of it….. plain and simple.

OK, enough. Stop changing your ‘nym. You’ve used the following ‘nyms that I’ve been able to identify:

  • don’t pity Rossi…many have it worse
  • don’t call her Stagliano
  • whhhaaaattt???
  • Oklahoma
  • Carol
  • Yup
  • Blech…he makes my skin crawl

Now, I don’t expect people to reveal their real names here and have no problem with the use of pseudonyms. However, I do have a real problem with sockpuppeting, even if the intentions are not nefarious. It’s right in my commenting policy:

Now, normally, when I detect sockpuppeting my response is to ban with extreme prejudice, but I’ll give you a chance. Pick a single ‘nym and stick with it. In case you’re wondering why your comments go to moderation so much, it’s because the blog is set to send any new commenter’s first comment to moderation. Whenever you pick a new ‘nym you go to moderation but can post without moderation once I approve the first comment. It’s an anti-spam measure. Finally, if you keep sockpuppeting, even with benign intent, you will be banned with extreme prejudice. This will be your only warning.

@ our Multi-nymmed Scoffer:

Even though I agree with you, we should include that Kim was in Italy for WORK
you see, she’s a karate instructor and her sensei is an Italian man who gave a seminar there and she came along to teach.

There’s a possibility that she was somehow compensated for this and that that paid for the airfare. It’s also possible that she got free lodging etc. in Italia. I knew Taiji instructors and they sometimes did classes like this- inviting a colleague from another area : it didn’t involve international flights or hotels as the visitor drove there and stayed at the host’s place.

BU I don’t see how she can make much money instructing a few classes of kids.
Maybe the guy who owns the business is able to support himself. The people I knew who taught Taiji and martial arts all did it as a side-line to another career, like PT, LMT, exercise coach, managing a Chinese resaurant etc.

My bankruptcy lawyer is a corporate yoga teacher on the side. Or the other way around, as he describes it.

@ Alain:

I think that you and Kim’s daughters are two sets of very different people. You’re not ID. You live independently and have a career. You know how to defend yourself- and HAVE already- against people who wanted to harm you.

Her daughters are very dependent and don’t function as adults at all – they even need assistance with basic cleanliness.

I also worry about a parent using alcohol as a way to CONTROL kids, to shut them up or get them wasted so the parent can ignore them or go out. Negligent caregivers have done that with elders as well as with ND children.
People might use alcohol or drugs as a way to harm young women by making them more compliant and vulnerable to abuse.


Given the circumstances here (Kim’s daughters), I did think of the corner case where they would have ID and in that regard, I agree with you and I find the ethical line very blurry. If Kim did use alcohol as a mean to control their daughter, then yes, it is harmful.


One another topic, speaking about myself, I’m on vacation since 2 weeks and for some 2 more weeks to go and I’m doing a machining technics course to be able to build some or all of the equipment for a large microbrewery. I also happen to have 2 moldavian friends, one of which want to bring me up to moldavia to start a hops farm & brewery (cheap land, cheap labor and he used to be a cop there who know a royal lot of moldavian cops friends).

That will likely happen in two years after I’m done with my machining technics course.


Of course, I will tour ukraine, russia and some more country if the trip happen. I kinda like the idea.

Alain (currently reading a book about Kim Philby).

Of course, I will tour ukraine, russia and some more country if the trip happen. I kinda like the idea.

Cool! Let me know if you want tips or recommendations in St. Petersburg, Moscow, Krakow, Warsaw, Prague, or Budapest.

I’ve been having daydreams lately of a trip at some point in the future to Vietnam. (You can get round trip tickets for seven hundred bucks!) Fly into Hanoi, make my way gradually down to Ho Chi Minh City… Three weeks at least. I’m trying to talk my friend Bart into it.


My SDF account has been all kinds of weird lately and most lately I don’t seem to be receiving emails at all. Try resending it to [email protected]. (Sorry about that!)

Eh, I’ve posted my email here a couple of times before and it’s not the one I use to post here, so I’m not too worried. Thanks though. 🙂

IN related news…

Mr Deer reports on Andy and Elle. The Sunday Times.

DW: Her daughters are very dependent and don’t function as adults at all – they even need assistance with basic cleanliness.

I hate to get on your case, but we have only Rossi’s word for that. Same with the ‘intellectual disability.’ It could be that Rossi’s style of ‘mothering’ has simply smothered the girls, so that they can’t do anything. Or they could, but she interfered with their attempts so much that they had to give up.

DW: she likes to spend a total of 30 minutes a day ( split in two sessions) IN THE SUN
OK, I know she’s an Aussie but seriously, isn’t that a lot?

Yeah, that seems like a lot. I mean, I’m up here in the north, and if I’m even contemplating more than 15 minutes out in direct sun, I need sunscreen. The sun’s been brutal up here- my toes are actually tan.

but we have only Rossi’s word for that.

If I’m thinking of the right person (and I think I am), she’s actually put up what I think are rather invasive videos of her daughters, and they pretty clearly are ID and very minimally verbal if at all. (I hate that she does that, because the text accompanying the videos is always like, “You see what my daughters are like and what I have to deal with?” It’s gross.)

On the other topic, wow, you folks are really white. 😉 I mean, I’m (mostly) white – half Norwegian in fact – and I actually get pretty pale in winter, but geez. (Jokes aside, I do get so dark in the summer that strangers quiz me about my ethnicity (which is weird and I don’t know why people do it.) Or, when I was in Yakima, people would automatically speak Spanish to me because I was assumed to be Mexican (which was fine except I embarrassingly don’t speak very much Spanish.))

@ JP:

Yep, I’m really white.
In July, I went in and out of the car several times without a hat WITH 100 SPF sunscreen and my face got burned
( at about 40 degrees N/ in CA).
I mentioned how I got burned in Dania because I went to the pier to photograph stupid pelicans sitting on the railings. I now wear a very thin cotton long sleeve shirt in the sun… and avoid FL.

One of the side effects of this is that I do not have awful skin despite my advanced age ( slightly older than Orac)

Interestingly, my mother was not light. She and her brother looked quite Mediterranean.
My father was possibly worse than I am.. He lived in the CA desert for a year and was burned a lot he said.

@ PGP:

Although I agree with you that her actions towards them may not be best , I think that they are seriously affected because they all have been in state-sponsored schools since young ages in CT- someone would detect interference I hope..

She constantly holds up their choices for entertainment- like that of pre-school, early grades children-
I would venture that if they were not ID, they might actually rebel against this if it were forced upon them.
Could you imagine how a 10 year old kid of average ability would act if given pre-school shows and tapes?

” I don’t want that baby stuff!”

So while I don’t believe a lot of what Kim says, I do believe that her daughters do have severe autism/ ID.

JP: We’re still seeing them through her lens. It seems to me that the kids of parents like Rossi would be labeled intellectually disabled even if they were of normal intelligence, because the parents grind them down as much as they can. But, yeah, it might be a legit diagnosis.

As far as embarrassingly white goes, I’ll own it. Though I’ve gotten pretty tan this summer. I don’t even have the excuse of Swedish ancestry, family is English (mom’s side) English/ Spanish/ some Germanic (dad’s.) Although someone once asked me if my dad was Lebanese. (I have no idea how they got that idea.)

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