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Elon Musk amplifies dubious claims of “spasms” and “seizures” after COVID-19 vaccines

Thanks to Elon Musk, two-year-old videos showing people claiming to have “seizures” and “spasms” due to #CovidVaccines have resurfaced and gone viral. Antivaxxers are partying like it’s 2009—or 2021.

I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again—and likely again and again and again. In the age of the pandemic, everything old is new again when it comes to antivaccine misinformation, disinformation, and conspiracy theories. Indeed, the new COVID-19 conspiracy theories only differ from old antivaccine conspiracy theories in certain details specific to the coronavirus causing the pandemic and the vaccines used to prevent COVID-19; for example, antivaxxers might have built up elaborate “mechanisms” and conspiracy theories based on the rare occurrence of myocarditis after the vaccination, but the message is still that vaccines are killing young people and causing
depopulation,” just as the antivax message about Gardasil was that it was killing girls and young women back in the day. So I’m rather embarrassed to say that it came as a bit of a surprise to me that the latest viral trend seems to be videos of people claiming that COVID-19 vaccines caused them to develop chronic spasms and seizures.

Here’s an example of what I mean, in response to Elon Musk’s claim that he had serious side effects from a second COVID-19 booster:

Mr. Musk, you’re not helping things.

I soon realized that most of these stories date back to 2021, some to January 2021, when the COVID-19 vaccines were being administered still mainly to healthcare workers, who were first in line to get the then-limited supply of vaccines. I also discovered that her son Brent Griner had posted this video to Facebook two years ago:

I’m no neurologist, but looking at the video above I started to get strong flashbacks to 2009. Why do I say 2009? Does anyone remember Desiree Jennings? Does anyone remember the videos of her claiming that she got dystonia from an influenza vaccine and how much the media botched the reporting on her claims? Remember how if she walked backwards, the strange jerky movements resolved themselves? Remember how neurologists (like Dr. Steve Novella) said that this didn’t look at all like dystonia? Remember how her Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) report was located, and it turned out that, when she was admitted to the hospital, her “admitting neurologist felt that there was a strong psychogenic component to the symptomatology”? (Also please remember that “psychosomatic” and “psychogenic” do not mean that the patient isn’t suffering real symptoms.) And then how she was miraculously “cured” of her dystonia by none other than longtime cancer and autism quack and antivaxxer Dr. Rashid Buttar?

Just like Ms. Jennings, Ms. Desselle has found her quack too:

Dr. Pierre Kory is quite proud of it too:

It’s not for nothing that they call Alex Berenson the pandemic’s wrongest man.

Of course, one mistake that antivaxxers made with respect to the Desiree Jennings case was that they called her condition “dystonia.” That made it ridiculously easy to search the VAERS database and find what was almost certainly her report and discover that she almost certainly did not have dystonia.

Here’s another case:

Let’s just say that I’ve never seen a seizure like that either. Again, I’m not a neurologist, but even so, I wasn’t the only one noticing…inconsistencies…in his story:

In fairness, he seems to have just gotten one date wrong, but it is rather odd that he claims to be so disabled and yet can be seen out and about as noted. Then there’s this video:

Then there is Shawn Skelton, who has similarly been posting videos like this to social media:

And:

And on Facebook in January 2021:

And a compendium of videos on YouTube:

What all of these cases have in common is that their “seizures” and “spasms” don’t look like anything I’ve ever seen before, which is why I sent them to a real neurologist, Dr. Steve Novella. Another thing that they all have in common is that there is little or no medical information to allow doctors and health professionals to determine whether there is any “there” there:

For instance, with respect to Ms. Skelton:

“By Thursday morning, I was in full body convulsions,” she said. “There’s nothing that will convince me that this is not from the Moderna vaccine.”

Since her video was posted, she’s been treated and released from Deaconess Orthopedic Neuroscience Hospital, according to the Evansville Courier & Press newspaper.

Skelton said an MRI, CT scan and blood cultures yielded no answers. According to her fiance, doctors told Skelton her problem is likely stress-related. The CDC told the Courier & Press that Skelton’s symptoms aren’t common in people who’ve taken the vaccine.

PolitiFact reached out to Skelton on Facebook, but hasn’t heard back. In a Facebook post on Jan. 18, she said she’s raising money to help pay for treatment.

Remember the first woman whose video that I posted from Twitter above, Angelia Gipson Giselle. Another article from 2021 reports:

The Facebook videos were short but unsettling. One, posted on the profile of Indiana resident Shawn Skelton, shows her shuddering on what looks like a hospital bed, an exhausted look on her face. In another, Skelton spends over a minute sticking her tongue out as it writhes oddly. Three other videos – all just a few seconds long – were posted by Louisiana-based Brant Griner, and feature his mother Angelia Gipson Desselle violently trembling and struggling to walk in a dimly-lit hospital room.

The videos all made the same claims: both Skelton and Desselle had been vaccinated for Covid-19 shortly before developing their tremors, and the vaccine, they alleged, was to blame. There is no evidence that this is the case. But, on Facebook, the truth rarely matters. For days, the videos spread unchecked, racking up millions of views and tens of thousands of comments. Devoid of context and, even now, challenging to factcheck, their spread is the latest salvo in the struggle to debunk vaccine disinformation and misinformation. To date, the videos have been shared by Facebook groups that push natural and alternative medicines, anti-vaxxers, 5G conspiracy theorists and by the far right.

Sound familiar? If that doesn’t, then how about this:

Skelton wrote on Facebook that doctors chalked up her shaking to conversion disorder, a mental condition triggered by extreme stress. In a Facebook post on January 12, Skelton said she remained unconvinced that stress was the cause of her condition. Since then, she has been posting about using CBD oil and “detoxing”. A friend of Skelton’s has also started a fundraising campaign, asking for $4,000 to pay for a doctor able to provide her with the “answers she deserves” about her condition. As of January 22, it has raised $4,560 from 127 donors.

Just like the case of Desiree Jennings, there is quackery involved, and money being raised to pay for the quackery. A similar dynamic appears to be at play with Ms. Desselle:

She then claims to have developed symptoms – abnormal heartbeat, trembling, difficulty moving, pounding headaches – on January 9, when she was admitted to hospital. In a video published from what appears to be her hospital bed, Desselle says that, after her hospitalisation, she was diagnosed with Wolff-Parkinson-White syndrome, a congenital heart condition that can cause an irregular heartbeat. She does not explain whether the doctors who visited her linked her symptoms to the syndrome or to the vaccine.

In another video, she says that her doctor thinks that her symptoms were “related to the vaccine. He said there are some metals in the vaccine that have done this to my body.” The Pfizer vaccine contains no metal. A Pfizer spokesperson says that neuromuscular disorders are not among the known side effects of its vaccine.

At the time of this report, there were no reports in VAERS of this sort of reaction, either.

There are a number of things to note about these stories. First, there is no evidence that the “seizures” (if they are that) and “spasms” (if they are that) have anything to do with COVID-19 vaccines, just as there was no evidence to show that Desiree Jennings’ “dystonia” had anything to do with flu vaccines. Also, a number of doctors noted that their movements did not look like anything like, well, anything, as Dr. Steve Novella noted two years ago:

When looking at the video it is possible to say what the movements are not – they are not convulsions, dystonia, myoclonus, ballismus, chorea, ticks, or any specific kind of tremor. After eliminating all the known phenomena of involuntary movements, what’s left?

Good question. Steve gives you an answer from a neurologist’s standpoint:

This is a situation we always approach carefully in neurology. We don’t want to make the argument from ignorance, but eliminating everything possible is significant. There are essentially two possibilities left – either this is a new phenomenon currently unknown to neurology, or it represents a conversion disorder, which is essentially psychological. But are there any positive signs that indicate a conversion disorder, rather than this only being a diagnosis of exclusions? Sort of. Experienced clinicians who have seen many patients with psychological movements develop an eye for what they tend to look like. There may be specific features, but also a gestalt. In any case – if I looked at this video without any context, I would conclude this is overwhelmingly likely to be conversion disorder. Apparently every physician who has seen this patient agrees, and other neurologists have commented publicly that this is likely the case.

Comments on social media tend to fall into two categories – that this is clearly a vaccine side effect or that the patient is faking. Neither is likely to be true. Conversion disorder is not “faking” (faking is technically called a factitious disorder, or more colloquially, malingering). People experiencing a conversion disorder do not have insight into what is happening. This also is a real medical disorder, just a psychological one, and should not be stigmatized. But we do need to understand it in order to properly deal with it.

This is why I was so alarmed to see people on “our side” posting things like this:

WTF? It’s awful and offensive to fake a seizure to mock someone who probably has a conversion disorder.

And this:

Seriously, people. Don’t do this.

Again, don’t do this. Before someone with a conversion disorder, also known as a functional neurological system disorder, can be treated, she needs to accept that that’s what she has. Mocking such people is a perfect way to make them double down in their belief that they have a disease or disorder whose symptoms can be traced to a definite anatomic or physiologic cause. Brent Griner took down many of the videos of his mother, Angelia Desselle, because he claimed that he was getting “harassment” from vaccine advocates over that. If that was true, then I will happily tell my readers yet again: Don’t do that!

On the other hand, sometimes antivaxxers conflate criticism and people saying that what they are posting is not credible with “harassment,” making it hard to tell how much is legitimate criticism and questioning and how much might actually be harassment. In such cases, I’ll generally give the benefit of the doubt and simply say: Don’t do that, and, if anyone on “our side” did that, I’ll call them out.

It’s also important to note that many, if not most, of these people probably weren’t antivaccine when they suffered their symptoms. After all, in January 2021, it was actually very difficult to get a COVID-19 vaccine if you weren’t a healthcare worker or elderly, as those were the groups targeted for priority. Indeed, Ms. Skelton is a nurse, which is why she was able to access the vaccine in early January 2020. It is, of course, human nature to look for a cause when a sudden change in health occurs; so it’s not surprising that people like Ms. Skelton would look for causes, the most obvious of which, given all the antivaccine misinformation that was swirling at the time, was the COVID-19 vaccine. It’s also not surprising that people like this would gravitate towards the antivaccine movement, given that antivaxxers believe them instantly, join them in blaming their “seizure” activity on vaccines, and and portray them as martyrs. No wonder Ms. Skelton and Desselle have both been featured on Del Bigtree’s show, because of course they have. (No, I’m not going to link to the show.)

Another important observation is that these stories first went viral two years ago. Seriously, it’s been that long. After their initial virtality in early 2021, with both Ms. Desselle and Ms. Skelton making the rounds of antivaccine podcasts , they had long ago faded into the background of antivax anecdotes and noise, to be replaced by new anecdotes and disinformation.

However, antivax anecdotes and specific pieces of misinformation never truly die. They keep resurfacing again and again, before drifting back into the background noise.The problem is that, when someone as prominent and with as many Twitter followers as Elon Musk gives antivaxxers a chance to resurrect such stories, they can go viral again and antivaxxers can party in 2023 like it was 2021 again. That’s why it’s definitely not good for public health to have a conspiracy-minded billionaire running one of the most influential social media platforms out there.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

353 replies on “Elon Musk amplifies dubious claims of “spasms” and “seizures” after COVID-19 vaccines”

I’m more interested in how Musk’s Tesla cars have seizures in self-driving mode. More people killed by that …

And I don’t believe Musk’s claim he felt like he was dying for two days. Surely he has immediate access to a medical doctor whenever he wants. No waiting at Urgent Care for him. He’s baiting the crazies (again).

You say that as if Musk isn’t a spoiled baby who would probably view typical post-vaccination fatigue/aches/headache/etc as signs of impending doom.

In another video, she says that her doctor thinks that her symptoms were “related to the vaccine. He said there are some metals in the vaccine that have done this to my body.”

That looks like a bad copy-paste of the old – and equally misfounded – claim that “mercury in MMR caused that”.
A recycling of old clichés from the hard antivax brigade. Echoes of 2009, indeed.

This is not helping the credibility of either the victim or the doctor.

Funny how symptoms from covid vaccines are always most severe in people who are ideologically opposed to these vaccines. It wasn’t guaranteed that these vaccines would be safe or effective, but the evidence showed – and continues to show – that they are. These people are so heavily invested in their crazy worldview that admitting they are wrong would be devastating to them.

Orac, I came across a new article on the Brownstone Institute while surfing Reddit, but can’t remember exactly where. Something about the founder.

I don’t think we know if all or any of the people claiming these extreme post-vax symptoms were ideologically opposed to the shots prior. They did get them after all. It seems more plausible that their symptoms are indeed psychogenic/psychosomatic/whatever, but since a) that seems to be a diagnosis the docs can only offer as a possibility, as certain physiological conditions have been ruled out, and there’s no test that can yield a definitive confirmation ‘yep, that’s what it is; and b) they don’t want to remotely consider the notion of ‘it’s all in your head!’ due to the fear of stigma; they thus latch on to whatever ‘alternative’ explanation is out there in the zeitgeist.

We might even guess that the onset of these symptoms might correlate with the vaccinations because the stresses of the early stages if the pandemic were the straws that pushed their psych issues over the edge…

There was a survey well before the vaccines were available about whether people planned to get them. The numbers were sobering: a full third of Americans said they wouldn’t. Many got vaccinated as early as possible out of fear, or were required for school/work, or simply because it was the intelligent thing to do. Note now how many “regret” getting the vaccine, combined with the low rate of boosting. Being anti-vaxx became part of the identity of people with a certain ideology. These people have to cope with the fact that the vaccines are extremely effective and safe, and are grasping at more and more ridiculous straws to defend their positions.

The problem with your original comment is it focuses on a handful of people who, for whatever reason, are genuinely suffering, and looking for answers. What we should focus on is exactly the people who are weaponizing antivax as a badge of tribal ideology — who are cruelly exploiting that suffering handful for their ideological ends. [Being convinced the jabs did them harm most likely works against them getting treatment that might actually help.]

It would be better to follow the headline and consider what Elon Musk is doing here. I’d be stunned by his narcissism, if that wasn’t a pandemic of its own among the plutocracy. So a COVID booster puts him on his tuchus for a day or so — a known totally common and non-worrisome reaction — and he whines that he was on Death’s door, and imagines himself One with the sad souls suffering in those video clips. Poor Baby!

What you gotta look out for John is these cases that somehow get cured by quacks. Gotta wonder if there’s some money changing hands when something like a simple herbal remedy clears up a medical mystery. Bit like those honey trap stories where ‘working from home earned me £483.34 per hour’.

I’m not a neurologist but like Orac, I am not convinced by the videos. However, if the symptoms have psychological origins as I suspect – and medical evaluations illustrate – these people are not to be ridiculed: they are obviously suffering. Would a person without any issues go through the trouble to behave in such a manner? Do the ‘symptoms’ look like seizures or what people think seizures look like? Why are the effects so easy to mimic by a person without any neurological problems like me?

re Twitter:
I’ve noticed that alties I survey ( Mike, Joe and Gary) hint that they may soon be able to tweet to their black little hearts’ content. A few others ( Kim Rossi, Age of Autism, Katie Wright, Joshua Coleman, Del Bigtree, RFK jr) have been tweeting uninterruptedly throughout the last few years.

“…but the message is still that vaccines are killing young people…”

What is killing young people? Because something is killing them, according to the CDC’s own data. In fact, mortality has dramatically increased for people of all ages except young children. https://www.virginiastoner.com/cvax-risk/

BTW, there does seem to be something other than the vax involved in the deaths, because of the unprecedented death surge in April 2020. On the other hand, there was a similar surge of deaths in Dec 2020-Jan 2021, and in August 2021, and the vax is an obvious candidate.

December 2020 to January 2021? Seriously, you do realize that vaccine supplies were very constrained then, that nowhere near enough people were vaccinated then to claim what you’re claiming, and that most of those vaccinated this first two months were healthcare workers and the elderly, right?🤦🏻‍♂️

“Death spikes before vaccines were available, and then again when vaccine supply was very limited.

The vax is the obvious candidate.”

Anti-vaccine activists attribute to vaccines such magic powers, while trying to claim they do not work.

So what do you think caused the unprecedented increase in deaths? Deaths were higher in 2021 than in 2020–so at the very least, the vax didn’t stop the excess deaths.

Does the CDC have an opinion on what’s causing the excess deaths, or is silence their position of choice, as with the massive increase in VAERS reports?

Well yeah, people still die in car accidents, so seatbelts and crumple zones are a waste of time.

They do.
I have posted it several times.
I and others who actually see patients and have throughout this entire mess have opined on this with data to back us up (e.g.-worsening of chronic conditions due to resource constraints, anxiety, etc.)
You keep ignoring all of the above and posting bullsh*t.

Medicalyeti said: “They do. I have posted it several times.”

If you’re talking about the stuff Joel posted, there was some speculation about certain causes of certain excess deaths–anything but the vaccine, of course–but nothing in the way of solid evidence.

If you’re claiming there’s some solid evidence that the COVID19 vaccines have nothing to do with the excess deaths, post a link here, and quote the most relevant passage claiming that.

Or are you claiming that an absence of evidence creates a presumption the vaccines aren’t to blame?

@Ginny Stoner Your data ended January 2021. Do you understand vaccines cannot preven anything when only a few people are vaccinated.
Do you know that reporting to VAERS is mandatory under PReP Act ? Certainly raises number of reports
@johnlabarge Devastating case of mandaory reporting

Aarno Syvänen my data didn’t end in 2021. The yearly data goes through December 2021 (since 2022 data isn’t all in yet), and the monthly goes through November 2022.

@Ginny Stoner Vaccines could not prevent COVID deahs among unvaccinataned either.

You’re saying that deaths were dramatically higher in 2021 and into 2022 than they were in 2020, because of COVID19. That’s a pretty dire condemnation of the vaccines, since it means they’re a miserable failure. Yet you still push them, same as ever.

And you think it’s funny.

I wonder if the CDC agrees with your opinions.

This is pretty incoherent but it seems to me that you think we believe the excess deaths were caused by a COVID infection? You really are not listening, at all, are you?

No one ever said COVID killed these people. We have those numbers, they are separate. Secondary effects of the pandemic caused those excess deaths, just as always happens in EVERY pandemic.

Try to keep up.

BTW – I’m curious: What the hell do you get out of all of this? Writing this crazy nonsense…what does it do for you?

@Ginny Stoner CDC always mention secondary effects, like overwhelming of health system. Just read the analysis.

Unvaccinated can get COVID, and that is not an evidence of vaccine failure.

Twitter has been swamped by shaking videos, recorded by cute, healthy people, trying to mock Angelia Desselle. In fact, I wonder if those people are paid to do so.

Angelia’s tweet:

https://twitter.com/AngeliaDesselle/status/1616809591928688641

Here’s a typical mocking tweet by a good looking redhead making fun of Angelia and vaccine victims:

https://twitter.com/ndngrl69/status/1617561836135538688

I am no neurologist, but I know that I could easily shake like that redhead, in coordinated whole-body vibing moves. (it would not be nearly as elegant of course as I am not a dancer).

However I could never replicate how Angelia’s shakes with all her limbs doing their separate things. Something is very special about Angelia, she either has unusual ability to shake so strangely, or she is genuinely messed up. Looking at her shape and age, I would guess it is the latter.

Compare these videos and let us know what you think!

Thanks. I criticized that woman on Twitter for making fun of Angelia Desselle, and she immediately blocked me. So I took her Tweet and added it to my post, to emphasize that skeptics should not be such assholes and do things like this. I also took the opportunity to quote Steve Novella’s two year old post, which for some reason I didn’t come across, probably because he didn’t mention any names, which were what I searched for.

Thank you for voicing that sensible sentiment Orac. It is regrettable that people get nasty to each other other in heated discussions, but it happens a lot. Antivaxxers also do that sort of thing. Even I may be guilty of being swept into emotions.

Personally, I mostly stay away from vaccine-injury discussions, because it is very rare that people get their first Covid vaccines nowadays. (other than infants, such as one out of 71 young kids in the P306 Moderna bivalent trial, who got asthma from the vaccine which was ruled unrelated by the investigator and no one at the FDA questioned it).

I mostly focus on excess mortality nowadays, which is getting outright frightening.

The UK and continental Europe at 20%+ excess mortality last December and Germany at 36% excess mortality compared to 2018-2019. Even Sweden, which antimaskers always touted, has 20% excess mortality in December after showing none for most of 2022.

Something new and bad started brewing in December.

I am frankly scared of what is happening, it is emotionally wrecking to recognize that there is no way out of this and mortality can get much worse with zero ability to actually turn anything around.

How much worse can mortality get? Nobody knows, use your imagination people.

This could literally wipe out a sizable percentage of the population.

Nobody in positions of power seems to care. That is in itself frightening.

The people in the videos are among the many who have been caused serious harm by antivaxxers who spread falsehoods and FUD about vaccines – antivaxxers exactly like Igor Chudov.

One thing I learned from reading responses to that sleazy Twitter post is that the Toronto Sun is a disreputable rag.

One Twitter respondent linked to a Sun article hyping vaccine injuries, which said that “400 deaths” after vaccination had been reported to Health Canada.

What the Sun failed to mention is that Health Canada looked into 296 reports of alleged vaccine-related deaths where there was enough info to undertake a preliminary assessment (the other 104 reports apparently didn’t have enough detail for followup). Of those 296 cases, Health Canada says:

“155 reports of death were unclassifiable due to lack of available information (not enough information to complete the preliminary assessment)
97 reports of death were inconsistent with causal association to the vaccine (unlikely to be linked to the vaccine)
40 reports of death were indeterminate (insufficient definitive evidence or conflicting evidence for causality)
4 deaths were consistent with causal association to immunization”

Deaths so far in Canada due to Covid-19 infection: over 50,000 (a figure not mentioned by the Sun).

The whole Sun chain in Canada is a collection of scuzzy little right wing tabloid rags.

…the Toronto Sun is a disreputable rag.
I am shocked and appalled that you would say that about the most revered and respected paper in Canada.

Subscriptions have fallen off since it has been illegal to wrap fish and chips in newspaper but I am sure this is a minor blip.

When David Miller was mayor of Toronto, at least one of the columnists in the Toronto Sun used to regularly refer to City Hall as ‘Socialist Silly Hall’. When the later crack-smoker Rob Ford was mayor, the Toronto Sun was referred to by City Hall staffers as ‘the daily love letter to Rob Ford’.

The Sun chain tried to start up their own 24 hour news channel in Canada to replicate the ideas of Fox News. It failed; not (as some people tried to claim) because of laws that require news channels to actually truthfully report news, but instead mostly because they could never get approval to be on the ‘basic cable’ list since there were already 24-hour news channels up here, and being stuck as a premium channel meant they never actually made money. Instead the Sun News Network went the podcasting route and morphed into Rebel Media, and among other things one of the original Sun News Network members who moved on to Rebel Media (Faith Goldy) attended the Charlottesville Unite the Right rally and interview folks from The Daily Stormer. Also Gavin McInnes, one of the founders of The Proud Boys, worked for Rebel Media.

So, yes, the Sun chain has deep ties into the alt-right side of things, and as disreputable a rag as the Toronto Sun is, that’s really just the surface layer of it.

Nice summary–thanks! Out here in BC Lower Mainland and Western Washington we mostly have the leftie/hippy version of anti-vax. Lots and lots of alt-med quacks–and cannabis shops. (I live in BC/Wash State). We mostly laugh at Alberta.

A. If asthma was ruled unrelated to the vaccine saying it’s caused by the vaccine is a lie.

B. Pandemics are bad. This one directly killed people and interrupted regular care.

When antivaccine activists look at deaths in the wake of a pandemic and try to blame vaccines, they simply expose themselves as deeply biased.

Dorit, sadly we are not in the wake of the pandemic.

The pandemic is getting worse rather than better and this is what bothers me. Excess mortality in Germany in December was at 36% of the 2018-2019 level. The UK, about 25% above pre-pandemic level. Europe, week 52 was at 35% above normal. Even Sweden is about at 25% above normal mortality in December, despite running at zero excess mortality earlier in 2022. These are huge numbers on par with the worst moments of past Covid waves.

Explanations like “people are dying because [UK] NHS is overwhelmed” do not hold water. NHS is overwhelmed because people are overwhelmingly sick.

I am not sure what is the endgame here, and how exactly these excess death numbers would get better instead of worse, long-term.

Everyone is treating this situation as some kind of a political game, as a ball to be pushed away or thrown at the other side.

I hope that we can realize that at this moment, the humanity as we know it is in danger.

To be blunt, we can easily lose half a billion people or more in the next few years. They could be our friends, relatives, or ourselves. Nobody seems to care or even understand this.

From UK
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/monthlymortalityanalysisenglandandwales/december2022
“In 2022 (using provisional monthly data), deaths were above average in both England and Wales (6.3% and 5.0% above average, respectively), but when accounting for population size and age structure, the age standardised mortality rate (ASMR) for the year was below average for both England and Wales (0.7% and 1.1% below average, respectively).”
Have you heard about graying of nations ?

“Explanations like “people are dying because [UK] NHS is overwhelmed” do not hold water. NHS is overwhelmed because people are overwhelmingly sick.”

You haven’t a fucking clue what you are talking about. Recently it was reported that there were 130,000 job vacancies in the NHS. Even before the pandemic we could easily spend four to six hours waiting to be seen in A&E (now the ED). I was at a nearby hospital last week. Drove into the car park past a large groups of nurses striking for better pay and conditions. No one wants to do the job for the rewards offered. That’s why there are so many foreign doctors and nurses and so many agency staff.

I have no idea how you can spout the absolute shit you do with a straight face but the NHS has been stretched near to breaking point every winter, years before covid was ever heard of.

If asthma was ruled unrelated to the vaccine saying it’s caused by the vaccine is a lie. -no
The folks so ruling could also be getting it wrong.
mRNA vaccines are not safe and probably not worth the risk for most people

mRNA vaccines are not safe

john, you and igor keep pitching that line of bullshit without any supporting evidence. Unless you can come up with a study that shows a link between the vaccines and the things you spew, or igor’s monomaniacal attempts to link excess deaths to it, you’re just showing yourselves to be two more conspiracy lovers who don’t have facts on their sides.

Maybe do some work and learn something about the underlying biology here [which, I admit, I don’t know] and statistics [which I do know a good bit about, far more than either of you two] and make a solid argument.

McCullough has articulated the mechanism for heart damage. There are various studies linking the mRNA jabs to heart damage. Is that really something you’re denying still?

No. He hasn’t. He’s made up a mechanism for heart damage. Dude doesn’t understand biochemistry and molecular biology very well. Either that, or he knows his audience doesn’t and is lying.

He has articulated the mechanism and other studies at least confirm widespread distribution of LNPs throughout the bodies of animals – rats, for example.

No, he hasn’t, and I’ve looked at pretty much every paper he’s cited to promote his fantastical “mechanism.”🙄🤦🏻‍♂️

How is it fantastical? LNPs don’t distribute the mRNA throughout the body? The immune system doesn’t respond to spike expression where expressed or that response is always benign? What IS the mechanism for myocarditis in your view? Mere coincidence?

@john labarge You start speaking heart damage and end upn speaking myocarditis. You should speak myocaritid all the time.

Do you why asthma was ruled not caused by vaccines ? Epertdmay have it right, oo

I remember reading Dr. Novella’s post about Ms. Skelton, Now Ms. Vidiella, when it first came out. It was very helpful, as was this post. I also remember that both these women were treated with Ivermectin – if you look at the “Pandemic’s Wrongest Man,” Alex Berenson’s, Twitter, he is having a bit of a debate with Dr. Pierre Kory about Ms. Desselle, which Dr. Kory has been treated. Surprisingly, Berenson is, unusually, trying to take the side of evidence.

You’re the doctor, but what possible argument can there be for giving them ivermectin, if the claim for its working against COVID-19 is that it’s an anti-viral?

https://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/be-skeptical-of-video-showing-vaccine-side-effect/

The side of evidence on ivermectin.

He can’t help but take a dig at people with long covid (and yes, I understand that long COVID patients can be vulnerable to grifters, too).

prn.live hosted a $30, 10 hour long **(!!!) seminar for people with ” Covid vaccine injuries” and/ or long Covid which included Pierre Kory and other grifters recommending ivermecton, NAC, various minerals/ supplements/ meds/ herbal treatments.
Throw every product you’ve got at it and see which ones stick?

** I didn’t pay but heard later triumphant synopses from the host

Orac: ” No, I’m not going to link to it.”

Sceptics though, should occasionally take a peek at Del’s broadcasts ( The Highwire once a week, Thursday) to witness the braggadocious, histrionic, non-stop balderdash he produces on a regular basis. It should be noted that his first career was as an actor/ singer ( which didn’t work out) from which he progressed to television and film production ( also not much) before settling upon grifting and fear mongering, mendacious public speaking. ICAN pulls in a great deal of money from people he misleads and/ or who are already misguided providing his healthy salary and travel account.

@ Ginny Stoner

You must be either one of the most dishonest people to post comments on this website and/or the stupidest. Orac, myself, and others have explained the excess deaths over and over again; but you ignore. Our explanations included links to CDC and other websites. I won’t repeat because in your sick mind you will ignore.

Watch the documentary linked to in previous post by Orac. You might learn something; but I doubt it.

KEEP MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF

You havn’t explained jack–you haven’t done anything except dance around the question. But by all means, if you know of a paper that specifically addresses the cause of the unprecedented increase in deaths of all ages, link us.

@ Ginny Stoner

Nope, I didn’t give one paper; but CDC and other specific websites that gave the data.

You have NEVER indicated the least understanding of immunology, thus, you can’t possibly understand how and why vaccines work. So, your antivax position is based on your own ignorant fantasy world.

YOU REALLY ARE ONE STUPIDLY BIASED IDIOT.

What does my understanding of immunology, or of how vaccines work, or my anti-vax views, have to do with the CDC’s mortality data?

The data summarized on my page is correct, I don’t see how there could be a dispute about that, since anyone can search the CDC WONDER database just like I did.

The question is, why the dramatic increase in mortality? That’s the question you’re desperately avoiding, Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH.

@Ginny Stoner They won’t answer because they can’t. Notice that Orac (almost?) never reviews actual studies or evidence. No steelmen with robust counterarguments will be found here. Nearly every blog post is little more than an ad hominem-laced reaction to social media posts. He does make sure to pepper it with establishment talking points though. Of course not every ailment or death that post-dates an injection is automatically caused by it—it is absolutely correct to point this out. However, steadfast refusal to even consider the so-called “vaccine” as a possible cause to be ruled out is intellectually dishonest and gives away the game. Mr. Harrison can append all the letters he wants to his moniker; it won’t help his credibility.

Notice that Orac (almost?) never reviews actual studies or evidence. No steelmen with robust counterarguments will be found here. Nearly every blog post is little more than an ad hominem-laced reaction to social media posts.

Well, just today I discussed why an antivax study is crappy and doesn’t show what the author thinks it shows.😉

https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2023/01/25/economist-mark-skidmore-publishes-antivax-propaganda-disguised-as-a-survey/

ldw56old said: “Nobody should trust anything on that pile of 2nd grade level writing you call a website.”

Has your legal department approved your constant stream of false and defamatory allegations?

You have been answered every time, did you notice. You just ignore the answers

How do LNPs work? How do they distributed in the body as a result of vaccination?

Yeah but not in a scientific way. In a conclusory, straw-man loving sort of way. You didn’t address whether bio-distribution of mRNA throughout the body (the LNPs being the vehicle). Would result of expression of the spike protein in various organs (such as let’s say the heart) and what may go wrong when the immune system goes after those cells. The stated mechanism of the mRNA vax, if the LNPs and thus mRNA are in fact widely distributed seems like it could have some serious problems. Not to mention that the protein that gets expressed is itself toxic.

Your article focuses on allegations that the LNPs themselves are toxic. This is a sort of straw man you use to attack antivaxxers without addressing the real argument/anti-mRNA vax hypothesis that LNPs carry the mRNA material all over the body, causing cells in organs anywhere in the body to express the spike protein and subsequently be attacked by the host’s immune system. That is the primary mechanism that McCullough and others state is the reason for the adverse reactions including myocarditis, blood clotting (via endothelial insult) and more. Dr Mobeen goes into some of these mechanisms as well as does Weinstein. Both are skilled in their fields. Weinstein (biologist) is only anti-Covid vax whilst Mobeen (doctor) has had at least one booster. If you want to see an easy to understand mechanism for vax caused clotting, for example, Mobeen has an excellent explanation.

I’ve discussed all that. You just didn’t listen, as you prefer to label science-based criticism as “ad hominem.”😂

I note that one of the people commenting on the videos is named “LOGAN – A Sovereign Being.” Over the past few days I’ve been frittering away some more of the waning balance of my existence watching YouTube videos about “sovereign citizens.” There are a lot of remarkable parallels between sovereign citizens and antivaxxers.

In both groups you find a significant fraction (virtually 100% of SovCits) who think that they have special knowledge and understanding that is hidden from the general populace. With SovCits this imagined knowledge is about law and “secret accounts” wherein the government holds large amounts of money in trust and that can be used to “settle accounts” if one only knows the magic incantations to draw on the funds. Their beliefs are all nonsense and anyone with the slightest ability to examine evidence can see that they are nonsense. Around here we see antivaxxers whose vert ‘nyms try to suggest secret knowledge and understanding e.g. “Indie Rebel” & “NWO Reporter” (who seems to have have reverted to her own name). They harbor all sorts of beliefs that are contrary to evidence (or proper approaches to analysis of evidence) and they repeatedly show that rather than having exceptionally good knowledge and understanding they have astoundingly little of either. Igor comes comes instantly to mind. I’ve seen a multitude of such people commenting on COVID-19 articles on the CBC website. Both antivaxxers and SovCits love to spread their nonsense and in so doing they cause real harm to others. No amount of evidence or efforts to teach them reality and relevant topics will change their views. (That isn’t 100% true – Mr. Meads of Meads v. Meads fame tried to use SovCit type arguments early in the course of his divorce proceedings before the Alberta Court of Queen’s Bench but gave up on them by the end of the trial. His use of such arguments is what lead John D. Rooke, Associate Chief Justice of ACQB, to write his epic decision.)

~~~
By pure happenstance I ran across the videos in Orac’s post just yesterday. They seem to be circulating anew. I didn’t realize they were actually quite old.
I am most assuredly not a neurologist and I haven’t seen very many people convulsing or with distonic disorders, but the movements of the people in videos have little semblance to what I have seen.

Anyone know anything about objective diagnostic methods that might be used? I’m curious if there are methods by which the “conscious mind” of people like those in the videos can be disconnected from exerting voluntary control of muscles without also disconnecting or interfering with involuntary control – not that involuntary movement of skeletal muscles is generally a positive thing. Might a dissociative anesthetic like ketamine be useful?

@ doug:

I agree. These groups both believe that they have secret knowledge that is not revealed to the common herd: in fact, psychologists who studied anti-vaxxers find that common thread- that they believe they are special, uncommon as well as more likely to have paranoid and narcissistic tendencies.

Amongst the alties/ woo-masters/ grifters I survey, nearly every week they have a new discovery or revelation that they broadcast to their enraptured thralls. Of course, this is an obvious attempt to get followers/ sell something BUT I venture that the professionals and the amateurs/ followers have personality traits in common: they believe that they are above it all, are the first to recognise the Truth, need to warn others and thus be harbingers of the oncoming paradigm shift where they will be vindicated as being right all along. Right now, they are crowing about how they were “right” about Covid/ vaccines since the start.

I think the best arguments on both sides are fairly out in the open. But enough time hasn’t gone by to really dig into the anti-covid vax side. The anti-covid vax folks aren’t focusing on toxins (PEG is an allergen of course, but I suspect that everyone is on the same page that in rare cases problems occur there) or anything special. They are focused on the mRNA mechanism itself and concerned that the distribution of the mRNA is causing most of the problems. The vax proponents appear conflicted and compromised to the point of being incurious or just plain dismissive of these concerns all the while severe reactions continue to pile up; the familiar pro-vax trope being to coincident theorize and deny causation at all costs. Aside from that, it appears that the vaccines themselves are not that effective in the real world which includes (and has always included) mutating viruses. I don’t see anything here that is special knowledge; rather it’s a dispute about the science for which a large portion of the folks – pro covid vaxxers – seem relatively compromised for a number of reasons and of course funding sources aren’t interested in. At this point that conflict maybe as much ego as it is group conformity and money related. The other recent issue that anti-covid-vaxxers bring up is immune tolerance which is supported by a recent study that appears isn’t being discussed or taken up by the CDC or FDA. This study is also public and no special information is required to find it Weinstein and Berenson both talk about it at length in a freely available podcast and substack article.

Other concerning facts that are completely out in the open is that pro-(covid)-vaxxers ignored prior infection and immunity in recommending vaccine – unlike for example the chicken pox vaccine for which antibodies are routinely tested. Sloppy data with/from issues in the counting of hospitalizations and deaths which health officials are on record openly acknowledging. Even former covid alarmists are concerned about it (Dr. When Op Ed in WaPo) – mandating and recommending vaccines in less risky populations (college students) for which severe reactions are more prevalent and FDA departures and disagreements over boosters. Also a lack of curiosity about early treatments and reduction in availability of monoclonals. The childishness of the FDA calling ivermectin horse medicine etc. And finally threats to doctors’ licenses and censorship about folks who raise these concerns.

None of these engender trust. Nor should they.

MRNA will produce proteins, tha is the mechanism. ha is problem with tha ?
Do you know wats, have you noticed ? Infecion does not cause full immunity. immune tolerance is ? It means that immune system does not attack self proteins. Spike protein is not one.
Why do you think COVID Death cerificaes are incredibll sloppy ?
There are older people in university,like profs.
Ivermectin is horse medicine, because approved for horses

Oh FFS not ivermectin AGAIN. Get some new material.

Weinstein has jumped the shark. Ironically, he is what happens sometimes in higher education. A textbook case of the kind of thing people like you rail against. He’s saying bs you like so you’re blind to this obvious contradiction.

Weinstein has PhD syndrome. He thinks he knows everything about everything. Any of us who went through those halls have all met at least one. They’re the same idiots you hate who write papers saying “All white men are inherently, irreconcilably toxic.”

I listened to his bullshit on the Rogan show, ironically, as I was driving into the ICU one day in the throes of the pandemic. Everything he said was divorced from reality. Everything Koury said just proved he had never seen or managed a real COVID case. Anyone with even a modicum of real world clinical experience during covid knew it.

Hell, even Rogan didn’t buy their baloney.

But they said things a group of scared, confused, and frustrated people wanted to hear.

Oh, by the way-it’s isn’t just horse paste. I actually gave a patient a script the other day for it.

…for scabies.

I joked with him that he’s now permanently immune to covid.

In Sep 2021, the medicines regulator (Theraputic Goods Administration) in Australia directed that only a limited range of specialists may prescribe ivermectin for off-label use (anything other than scabies or some other parasitic diseases).

One of the reasons for the restriction was:

[T]here has been a 3-4-fold increased dispensing of ivermectin prescriptions in recent months, leading to national and local shortages for those who need the medicine for scabies and parasite infections. It is believed that this is due to recent prescribing and dispensing for unapproved uses, such as COVID-19.

https://www.tga.gov.au/news/media-releases/new-restrictions-prescribing-ivermectin-covid-19

I think it’s hilarious that y’all talk about ‘antivaxers’ as if they are all intellectually inferior and/or mentally unstable. I understand the vaccine industry is in a state of desperation these days, but that’s just silly–anyone can see that ‘antivaxers’ consist of regular people of all walks of life and all education levels–just like provaxers.

It would be just as wrong to lump all provaxers into the category of CWAC (Creature Without a Conscience). Some genuinely believe all vaccines are safe and effective and save lives, and they are heroes for pushing them–although it requires a monumental level of willful blindness.

I think it’s hilarious that y’all talk about ‘antivaxers’ as if they are all intellectually inferior and/or mentally unstable. I understand the vaccine industry is in a state of desperation these days, but that’s just silly–anyone can see that ‘antivaxers’ consist of regular people of all walks of life and all education levels–just like provaxers.

That description might apply to the vaccine-hesitant, but antivax leaders, the ones pushing the narratives that lead to vaccine hesitancy and sometimes antivaccine views, tend to be dishonest grifters. Think RFK Jr., Mike Adams, Joe Marcela, Peter McCullough, Pierre Kory, etc., etc., etc.

“although it requires a monumental level of willful blindness”

I would have characterised anti-vaxxers as ‘exaggerated idea of their own perspicacity’ but that works too.

…just ones who dedicate their every waking moment to an unhinged, nutty-as-squirrel-turd “research”…

Serendipitously, Mike Adams, today ( NN, 5 minutes in), recounts how a commenter thinks it’s impossible to know as much and do as much as Mike does. He assures his listeners that he and they indeed are not average but something far beyond that mediocrity.

Well, I’ve not witnessed any of these herkey-jerkeys personally. I have encountered a putrid smell.
The cable guy (DirecTv) was over to add a 4k box to dad’s tv. I woke up to the most horrendious stinkum — like death slathered in cologne. It penetrated the whole house right down to the blanket on the couch (afgan?). I aired the place out when he left even though it was cold out. The smell still reaches me. Dad said he did not pay it any notice (he did not say he did not smell it).

The thing is, A car passed me today and I smelled that same smell (minus the cologn). Am I smelling some infection?

I remembered the smell — a well-limed out-house (privey) of my grandfather’s from whem I was six years old. So, naturally, I pegged that guy as a serial killer living amongst the deadded. Please Help!!

Full disclosure: I rarely shower exept to get off dead skin. Nobody as ever said I smell save dad who, upon smelling my arm, said it was slightly vinnegary.) I have natural nitrifying bacteria wich converts ammonia, apperently. There is a product called Dirt Spray that claims to do the same thing.

Am I smelling some infection or serial killers??

Since I can’t see what I write, a recap is I smelled the same smell from a passing car.

Having some familial familiarity with seizures, those videos do not display any of the main characteristics of the seizures I am familiar with – particularly the being conscious and even articulate during the seizure.

Of course I am only an anecdote and not a professional in this area.

What is unfortunate is the way that quacks have cashed in on these people. Regardless of whether the cause of these seizures is biological or psychosomatic, quackery is not going to help and could even prolong the problem.

@ Ginny Stoner

From one paper: “Though excess deaths during the pandemic were primarily due to COVID-19, they also resulted from other causes. For example, actual deaths due to strokes during the pandemic were 7 percent higher than expected, and actual deaths from diabetes were 16 percent higher. Deaths due to external causes were particularly elevated relative to their expected levels, with a 16 percent increase in accident fatalities, a 29 percent increase in fatal drug overdoses, and a 27 percent increase in homicides”. National Bureau of Economic Research (2022 Mar). Excess Mortality during the COVID-19 Pandemic.

Here is another: “From April 2020 through at least the end of 2021, Americans died from non-Covid causes at an average annual rate 97,000 in excess of previous trends. Hypertension and heart disease deaths combined were elevated 32,000. Diabetes or obesity, drug-induced causes, and alcohol-induced causes were each elevated 12,000 to 15,000 above previous (upward) trends. Drug deaths especially followed an alarming trend, only to significantly exceed it during the pandemic to reach 108,000 for calendar year 2021. Homicide and motor-vehicle fatalities combined were elevated almost 10,000. Various other causes combined to add 18,000. While Covid deaths overwhelmingly afflict senior citizens, absolute numbers of non-Covid excess deaths are similar for each of the 18-44, 45-64, and over-65 age groups.” Casey B. Mulligan & Robert D. Arnott (2022 Jun). Non-Covid Excess Deaths, 2020-21: Collateral Damage of Policy Choices? National Bureau for Economic Research

And on Respectful Insolence’s sister blog:

“For the United States, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) estimates that excess deaths between the weeks ending March 7, 2020 and March 5, 2022 totaled 1,105,736, 15 percent more than the 958,864 official death toll from COVID-19 over that period.

That translates to 146,872 excess deaths not officially attributed to COVID-19 during that period. What are the causes of those unaccounted for excess deaths? Some of them are likely uncounted COVID deaths. Especially early on in the pandemic, death certificates often missed the role of COVID in some deaths. Overworked coroners often took families at their word when reporting the cause of death of a family member at home. By one estimate, COVID-19 deaths were underestimated by about 20% in the US.” Steven Novella (2022 Jul 20). Excess in Non-COVIDs: What are the true causes of the excess non-COVID deaths during the pandemic. Science-Based Medicine.

He then goes on to quote from the previous articles above.

I have more papers; but to sum it up:

Many with cancer, heart disease and other illnesses died because hospitals were overflowing with COVID patients and, treatment was delayed.
Drug deaths; e.g., opioids, alcohol, homicides, motor vehicle deaths increased significantly during the pandemic

You write: “What does my understanding of immunology, or of how vaccines work, or my anti-vax views, have to do with the CDC’s mortality data?”

Everything! First, you ignore the overwhelming data from around the world that those vaccinated had lower hospitalizations and deaths. Second, you ignore that vaccines don’t provide 100% protection. Third, you ignore data that those who got both the vaccines and the boosters had the lowest rates of hospitalizations and deaths. Fourth, you ignore that those vaccinated who were hospitalized and died were almost all very old and/or with severe comorbidities; yet, even data on these groups showed lower hospitalizations and deaths for those vaccinated.

Finally, data shows that the current hospitalizations and deaths are higher where percent of population unvaccinated and/or under vaccinated and/or where population ignores using masks, physical distancing, etc. Mass outbreaks in specific churches, packed with parishioners who were unvaccinated and not wearing masks, etc.

But more importantly, even if one could NOT account for every single excess death, you then assume could be vaccine and that is where your IMMENSE IGNORANCE of immunology plays the major role, besides your rigid unscientific bias against vaccines.

I suggest, for a start getting a copy and read: Lauren Sompayrac’s “How the Immune System Works (6th or 7th Edition)” I realize you won’t because you believe you are right without any understanding of immunology, so why waste your “valuable” time reading an immunology book, especially if you consciously or unconsciously worry it may end up with you having to admit you have been wrong and all the effort you put into your website was a waste of time.

And watch the new documentary: Virulent: The Vaccine Wars. Available to stream until January 28 for only $15. You will learn just how you fit in with all the other ignorant unscientific antivax idiots. You can access it at:

https://watch.showandtell.film/watch/virulentdocumentary

And Orac, myself and others have over and over explained why the increase in VAERS means little. There actually was a huge increase during 2008-9 H1N1; but with increases in antivax websites, with people reading idiots like you, there were more people assuming anything and everything they experienced after getting vaccines were caused by vaccine, Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc. And some indication that antivaxxers simply posted anonymously such claims, even if they had not experienced any adverse event after vaccinations or, more likely, even if they had NOT received a vaccine.

YOU JUST KEEP MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF

What caused the excess deaths from strokes, heart disease, diabetes, etc.? Accidents are often related to sudden medical emergencies, including car accidents and falls. Is that the reason for the increase?

You haven’t disputed the excess death data I have on the CVax Risk page on my site, so I assume you agree with it.

We are talking about a massive and unprecedented increase in deaths. And you think people should be satisfied with your ‘explanation’, or they’re ‘foolish’?

That doesn’t make sense, especially when we are dealing with a vaccine that’s only been out a couple years–some are even newer. It’s not even physically possible to know all there is to know about the health effects of those vaccines.

Aarno said “My question was: Did you make age adjusmens.”

I provide all the formulas I use on the page, although most of the page is simply showing people the VAERS vaccine injury data and the WONDER death data, and doesn’t involve any formulas at all.

All the calculations I use are basic ones, such as the number of serious adverse events compared to the number of vaccines (used to establish that the massive increase in VAERS reports is not due to more vaccination).

Also, Aarno, I looked through my CVax Risk page and I just don’t see anywhere where age-adjustments would even be appropriate. So tell me the section where you think they could or should be.

Okay Aarno I looked at this again and I think you are talking about the COVID19 vaccine risk estimates section. I added a statement there about age under the list of things the estimates don’t account for. Probably should have done that before so I guess have to grudgingly thank you.

What caused the excess deaths from strokes, heart disease, diabetes, etc.?

I actually wrote a blog post about one of the reasons in September 2021.

The refusal of antivaxxers to take the vaccines has seen thousands of them wind up in ICU’s around the World. And now, this has started to harm others.

Because there are so many people in ICU’s and hospital beds with COVID, hospitals have been forced to turn away patients as they have no room. And now people are dying.

https://autismjungle.wordpress.com/2021/09/19/such-utter-stupid/

I read you post. It’s solely an opinion piece, I assume you realize that. It contains no evidence whatsoever to support your premise that “The refusal of antivaxxers to take the vaccines has seen thousands of them wind up in ICU’s around the World.”

LOLOL. That’s the post where you conspiracy monger that somehow “age-adjusted” data are just a way for doctors to make it look as though the vaccinated do better, rather than a long-accepted data technique in epidemiology that’s been used for decades an decades when comparing populations.

Yeah, right, Orac–just because the age adjustments changed the result from from “vaccines very bad” to “vaccines very good” couldn’t possibly be cause for concern–so let’s not ask any questions. We all know that no monkey business ever happens when it comes to vaccines. That’s your LOLOL.

Thank you for demonstrating once again that you don’t know what you’re talking when it comes to epidemiology.

And you wonder why I don’t take you seriously. You don’t even know what you don’t know, but, worse, you’re unwilling to learn.

Orac said, “Thank you for demonstrating once again that you don’t know what you’re talking when it comes to epidemiology.”

How so? Are you claiming there is no discretion with regard to age adjustments? Because there is. Or are you claiming there is discretion, but the CDC would never abuse it? LOLOL.

If you think that the CDC somehow “abused” age-adjustment, then it is incumbent upon you to show how the method the CDC used to age-adjust its mortality statistics was not just inappropriate from a scientific and epidemiological standpoint, but purposely chosen to make the vaccine look better.

I predict that I will wait long for any serious (or even serious-seeming) attempt from you to do this. You just conspiracy monger, but can’t back up your insinuations. Again, and you wonder why no one takes you seriously around here other than other antivax conspiracy mongers?

Orac, the first step is to see whether there is any reason to suspect possible statistical shenanigans. I just did the first step. I never claimed there WAS shenanigans–I was just investigating whether it might be worth investigating. If you don’t think it is, tell me why. I wrote:

“Age adjustments in statistics have been around a long time and are an accepted practice. But that doesn’t mean the specific age adjustments used by the CDC and the ONS were legitimate. To determine that, we need more information, such as what age groups they used, the expected death rate they assigned to each, the formulas they used, etc.”

This data is not available without a FOIA request, as far as I can tell. Do you have it?

If you’re so convinced that there’s something “worth investigating” here, then what are you waiting for? Get to work on that FOIA request!

It’s not up to me to assist you “proving” your conspiracy theories about the CDC and its use of age-adjusted numbers.🙄

I am beginning to wonder whether Ginny is just a piece of performance art. All the arguments on this thread are identical to arguments made on other threads where she was provided with data showing her arguments were wrong.

Yet here we are with the same wrong arguments recycled.

MedicalYeti is claiming the unvaxed “died suddenly.” MedicalYeti was recently on this blog ridiculing people who were claiming the vaxed “died suddenly”. A great illustration of hypocrisy.

Jeebus Hairy Christ you are DUMB! I was ridiculing the insinuation that people were suddenly dying from the vax not covid. Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuugh

Oh, and “tone policing” again like others have said

Uuuuuuuuuuuuuuiiuiiiiuugh

@Ginny Stoner do you know that here is a higher mortality among older people ? So here are more deahs in a group of older people. Vaccinated is one. Where is monkey business here ?

Aarno said “do you know that here is a higher mortality among older people ?”

AGAIN, you comment without even looking at the page. How can people do this so much and think people won’t notice? This is one of the reasons why the vaccine industry is in such dire straights.

This data is not available without a FOIA request, as far as I can tell. Do you have it?

It took me 30 seconds to find an introduction for you, Gindo. Thirty seconds (PDF).

And yes, the same reference population is still in use.

Narad said, “It took me 30 seconds to find an introduction for you, Gindo. Thirty seconds (PDF).”

Narad’s link said, “This report describes several sets of age-adjustment weights, based on the year 2000 projected U.S. population, that were used to generate age-adjusted baseline data for a number of Healthy People 2010 objectives.”

What makes you think this applies to the CDC’s vaccinated vs. unvaccinated mortality data in 2022? You should have spent more than 30 seconds and figured that out before acting like an ass.

A continuity correction assumed at ≥5% of each age group and jurisdiction would always be unvaccinated (i.e., fully vaccinated coverage ≤95%). Average weekly incidences were calculated by age group (18–49, 50–64, and ≥65 years), vaccination status, and primary series vaccine product (Ad.26.COV2.S [Janssen {Johnson & Johnson}], BNT162b2 [Pfizer-BioNTech], and mRNA-1273 [Moderna]) during each period; rates overall and by vaccine product were age-standardized using the 2000 U.S. Census standard population.¶¶

COVID-19 Incidence and Death Rates Among Unvaccinated and Fully Vaccinated Adults with and Without Booster Doses During Periods of Delta and Omicron Variant Emergence — 25 U.S. Jurisdictions, April 4–December 25, 2021

It was sitting in front of you the whole time. (And I had this yesterday but left it as an exercise. Silly me. :roll:)

Right, Narad–we should rely on a 20+ year old paper about age adjustments

Did you even follow the link that your miserable ass was provided? Those entries are plainly quite current. IIRC, it’s standardized across HHS, but I’m noot going to waste any more time on perfectly elastic collisions with your head.

“What caused the excess deaths from strokes, heart disease, diabetes, etc.?”

You really need to pay attention Ginny. During the pandemic, when the health services were stretched, people weren’t being diagnosed with heart problems, blood pressure problems etc, in the same quantities as pre-pandemic. Same for diabetes. Partly due to hospitals and doctors having longer waiting lists but also because people were staying away, if they could, for multiple reasons (e.g. public health measures, the desire to avoid overloading health care and fear of infection).

This is already known by the health services. Seems to be news to you though. Look at the causes you picked. Every single one of them has better outcomes with earlier detection. Worse outcomes if left uncontrolled.

I’m not sure but I also read that mild covid infections might be causing heartproblems.

Yeah. That too but it seems that anti-vaxxers find it convenient to ignore the secondary effects of the pandemic. Makes their figures look better if they don’t take all the pandemic collateral damage out of the equation.

@ Ginny Stoner

A few more papers on excess deaths during pandemic due to delays in cancer screening, etc:

Julie M. Vose (2020 Sep 15). Delay in Cancer Screening and Diagnosis During the COVID-19 Pandemic – What Is the Cost?. Oncology. CANCERNETWORK.COM

MacKenzie Mayo, MD; Bindu Potugari, MD; Rami Bzeih, DO; Caleb Scheidel, MS; Carolyn Carrera, MD; and Richard A. Shellenberger, DO(2021 Dec). Cancer Screening During the COVID-19 Pandemic: A Systematic Review and Meta-analysis. MAYO Clinic.

@ Ginny Stoner

First, despite your immense ignorance, science knows how mRNA vaccines work and we have had over two years of follow-up. And you are nuts when it comes to refusing to understand the reasons for the excess deaths. It is worthless to respond to someone who refuses to even consider she is wrong. You are locked into your unscientific, intellectually dishonest antivax beliefs and you refuse to even attempt to understand immunology, the basis of vaccinology.

In other words, YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT.

Two years of followup…which included many indications of danger from the vaccines. You’re claiming there’s no possibility the vaccines have caused or contributed to any of the 1.6 million excess deaths in the US in the past 2 years–and you’re just flat-out making that up. You’re a CWAC.

Orac there’s nothing sad about my blog. I spend many, many hours creating charts that clearly illustrate VAERS data, mortality rates, and other official data kept by government.

My CVax Risk page, in particular, is intentionally designed to be totally opinion-free–the page is exclusively to tell people what the numbers are, with no pro- or anti-vax fluff thrown in.

You won’t find any pro-vax pages like it–because they don’t want clarity about the data. Of course I want more people to see it.

I do not know nothing is not an analysis. Notes on the first page say that deahs are based on death certificates. UK does have a vaccination registry.

I spend many, many hours creating charts that clearly illustrate VAERS data, mortality rates, and other official data kept by government.

An appropriate analogy seems to be “dungeon master with no players in sight.”

@ Ginny Stoner

First, in previous comments a while back I said it is always possible, given genetic diversity, epigenetics, toxins, etc. that a minuscule number of people could have died from the vaccine. I repeat, possible that a minuscule number of people died from the vaccine; however, there is currently NO credible scientific evidence supporting this; but even if eventually science does find a MINUSCULE number died from the vaccine, the world-wide stats of over two years finds the vaccine saved many millions of lives. As I’ve written before, smallpox epidemics killed 25% or more of a population. The vaccine saved ALL of them; however, it killed 1 or 2 per million vaccinated, so 250,000 saved vs 1 – 2 died. Of course, in your sick warped mind we should have stopped smallpox vaccinations to save the 1 or 2. It is you who are a Creature Without Conscience. You really are dishonest. You asked me for stats on other deaths excess deaths during pandemic, so I found them. Didn’t affect your position one iota. Nothing will because you live in your own sick warped world.

And by the way, when they were alive I made sure my grandparents and parents, who I loved dearly, got flu vaccines, etc. And my friends. And I have gotten ALL the COVID vaccines.

I repeat for the umpteenth time that you don’t understand immunology, thus you don’t even understand how and why vaccines work. You don’t understand viruses. You don’t understand epidemiology. You claim that many antivaxxers are quite intelligent. Intelligence has nothing to do with it. If someone gave me several plans for building a bridge over a river, I couldn’t choose which is best because I have NEVER studied structural engineering. So, being highly educated and intelligent would have nothing to do with it.

And by the way, the current excess deaths is not the first time. In 1918-19 with a population of less than 1/3 current killed 675,000, thus over twice current COVID deaths

YOU JUST KEEP MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF

.

“I said it is always possible, given genetic diversity, epigenetics, toxins, etc. that a minuscule number of people could have died from the vaccine.”

Guess what? Given the massive increase in mortality (and VAERS reports), it’s always possible that a LARGE number of people could have died and been otherwise seriously harmed from the vaccine.

You’re acting as if you have definitive knowledge that the COVID19 vaccines are safe and effective. You don’t. Maybe you’re lying to yourself, although I doubt it, but there is no way you have that knowledge, because it doesn’t exist.

Guess what? Given the massive increase in mortality (and VAERS reports), it’s always possible that a LARGE number of people could have died and been otherwise seriously harmed from the vaccine.

Actually, no it isn’t. Pharmacovigilance systems show that quite clearly. COVID vaccines are very safe and, although no longer as effective as they once were before Omicron, still quite effective at preventing severe disease.

First it is actually years, and this refers to attentuated vaccines,a uitee differen hing.

I don’t understand what the problem is – if you think there is another answer – prove it.

She won’t. She’ll just point to her blog posts, in which she makes errors and misinterpretations that even a first year public health, epidemiology, or statistics student would not.

And yet you have never pointed out a single one of these alleged errors. You laugh at the idea that my CVax Risk page is just an objective explanation of the official data from WONDER and VAERS (which is IS) yet you can’t provide a single example to support your case.

You’re full of denigrating generalizations about me, but way short on evidence.

@Ginny Stoner You have been told multiple times thatnVAERS data do not prove causation, as CDC itself says. Real risk analysis will go further,

Aarno, I HAVE NEVER SAID VAERS REPORTS PROVE CAUSATION. In fact, my page on that issue reminds people of that about a dozen times in text, notes and images. After all this time, and many, many comments about it, you’ve never even looked at the page you are criticizing. You can’t make stuff like this up.

Oh please. Antivaxxers love to have plausible deniability by adding a disclaimer, but in context your intent is very clear, particularly in light of your comments on this blog.

It’s also possible a sudden shift in the moon’s orbit did it…or is it all…lunacy?

@ Ginny Stoner

Fauci was specifically talking about developing a vaccine against AIDS. AIDS is very different from the viruses that vaccines are developed for. I won’t go into the details because I realize you will ignore. And we still don’t have a vaccine for AIDS. Why? Because HIV mutates at rates far greater than other viruses, so they are trying to develop a vaccine that will target conserved parts of the virus. Unfortunately, conserved parts are not visible at the surface. I’m sure you could care less; but as Orac, myself, and others have written, since 1960s when mRNA was discovered there are more than 400,000 papers on mRNA prior to the pandemic and over 70 since the 1990s on developing mRNA vaccines. The mRNA vaccines, Pfizer and Moderna carried out all phases of required FDA clinical trials, with phase 3 involving 30 – 40,000 and they have continued follow-ups for over two years now. A few rare cases of myocarditis did occur after the vaccines; but on follow-up did quite well. [CDC (2022 Sep 27). Myocarditis and Pericarditis After mRNA COVID-19 Vaccination]; however, far more cases were caused by the actual virus [e.g., Tegan K Boehmer et al (2021 Sep 3). Association Between COVID-19 and Myocarditis Using Hospital-Based Administrative Data — United States, March 2020–January 2021. MMWR]

I realize you will ignore this; but my comments are not intended to influence an absolute moron like you; but to give info to others following this blog that they can use in the future.

And you keep on using VAERS despite several well-written papers by Orac, numerous comments by me, etc that VAERS does NOT represent any type of causal argument. I would bet that if you were a prosecutor who got a conviction that despite any and all new evidence of innocence you would fight to keep in jail. And I would bet that if police, after a vicious crime, brought in a dozen or more suspects for questioning that you would want to skip a trial and throw all of them in prison.

It’s not on me to prove the COVID19 vaccines are dangerous and useless–it’s on the people pushing them to prove they are safe and effective.

I present data on my site from the the government databases VAERS and WONDER, and sometimes other sources of ‘official’ data as well. The CVax Risk page is exclusively devoted simply to showing what the data is. It’s disturbing all the efforts people like you go to just to try to draw attention away from the data–because you know it appears adverse to COVID19 vaccination, even though I don’t say it is.

@ Ginny Stoner

You write: “You’re acting as if you have definitive knowledge that the COVID19 vaccines are safe and effective. You don’t. Maybe you’re lying to yourself, although I doubt it, but there is no way you have that knowledge, because it doesn’t exist.”

BULL SHIT. We have definite knowledge based on understanding mRNA, based on extensive testing of the mRNA vaccines on large groups, based on follow-ups over several years, based on overwhelming international data on lives saved, vaccinated compared to unvaccinated. And, as I wrote, minuscule risk possible; but so far none found. It is you who are lying to yourself based on your rigid biased unscientific antivax position. And I suggested you read an inexpensive book; but I know you won’t; but here it is again: Lauren Sompayrac’s “How the Immune System Works.”

We have had three dangerous corona virus variants over the past two decades. There exists the possibility of a fourth variant that possibly could be both more transmissible and more deadly. A possibility, not a certainty; but understanding how RNA viruses mutate and the immense number of corona viruses whose genomes have been sequenced, a reasonable possibility. Though I hope it won’t happen, I wonder if even after several million deaths mainly among unvaccinated you would admit you are wrong. I doubt it. Note even if a variant is quite mutated, chances are that those vaccinated will still be somewhat protected against severe illness, hospitalization, and death, called cross-immunity.

@ Ginny Stoner

You write: “Where did this newfound vaccine recklessness come from? It’s totally in conflict with Fauci’s views 20 years ago, that vaccine safety takes a decade or more to establish.”

The very short cut of Fauci’s testimony is on developing an AIDS/HIV vaccine. First, whoever posted it is just as extremely dishonest as you. I could take any book, any testimony, etc. and cut to just a very short section to prove anything.

In an 2008 article in Scientific American Fauci said: “I think all of those predictions of time frames really reflect an innocent but unintentional lack of appreciation for how unique and different HIV is. When you’re setting out to develop a vaccine, you generally use natural infection as your model, or, put a different way, as your experiment of nature. Regardless of what microbe or virus you’re dealing with—even the deadly ones like smallpox and the maiming ones like measles and polio—the majority of people, and sometimes the overwhelmingly vast majority of people, may get sick and then ultimately get better. They don’t die and they
don’t have any lasting remnants of the infection. What happens is that the body adequately and appropriately ultimately eliminates the virus and provides you with lasting protection against subsequent challenges [from that virus]. But, the body’s natural response is different with HIV? Astoundingly, of the tens of millions of people who have been infected, there’s not a single documented case of someone who has established infection and ultimately eradicates the virus from the body.” [Nikhil Swaminathan (2008 Jul 28). NIH Official: HIV Vaccine Research “Swimming in the Dark”. Scientific American.]

I challenge you to read the article, available for free online. Just to make clear, the purpose of a vaccine is to prepare the immune system to stop or weaken an intruder before the intruder can do damage; but if the immune system can’t do this, then a vaccine can’t be made.

@ EVERYONE

Ginny Stoner posted a link to a very short cut of Anthony Fauci testimony before Congress.

https://twitter.com/ThePrinceFrog/status/1615747416141058051

I’ve tried numerous search strategies; but couldn’t find the actual testimony. It has to be out there since an antivaxxer used it to make the short cut version. If anyone can find the actual testimony, please give link in a comment.

Thanks

@ Ginny Stoner

First, I do not work for anyone, nor receive any money. Typical of you. You don’t try to address what I actually wrote; but attempt a dishonest ad hominem attack. Second, you ignore that I pointed out clearly that you found an extremely dishonest antivax cut of Fauci’s testimony. Anyone can cut very small segments from books, testimonies, etc. which is just plain dishonest.

So, I repeat: I do not work for anyone, nor receive any money. Typical of you. You don’t try to address what I actually wrote; but attempt a dishonest ad hominem attack.

YOU ARE AN EXTREMELY DISHONEST STUPID PERSON! ! !

Nearly everything you write in response to me, and anyone else who disputes the vaccine paradigm, is verbose misdirection and obfuscation to promote vaccines and other pharmaceutical products. You ignore direct questions. You act like a school child, calling me ridiculous insulting names over and over. The way you act dictates the degree of respect your comments deserve, and it’s not much.

@ Ginny Stoner

Yu write: “You ignore direct questions.”

You are either extremely mentally disturbed or just a plane liar as I have numerous times directly addressed what you wrote, often including both quotes followed by detailed references so you could check them out.

Just one example: You linked to a very short soundbite of Fauci addressing Congress about not being able to check the effectiveness or safety of a vaccine for many years; but you ignored that he was speaking ONLY ABOUT HIV VACCINES and you ignored that I then cited him explaining why in an article from Scientific American, namely that since our immune systems don’t fight off HIV, then vaccines designed to prepare our immune systems won’t work.

And you continue to base everything on VAERS which Orac has written several pieces on and I have given detailed comments why one cannot use VAERS to determine causation, You ignore this. I suggest you check out the CDCs Vaccine Safety Datalink, which is connected to medical records of around 11 million people, including age, gender, comorbidities, vaccines given (lot number, data, amount), and any medical visits afterwards to look for adverse events.

YOU ARE A DISHONEST LYING MORON

Yep, I call you names because they accurately describe you

You’ve GOT to be a bot.

Can you imagine talking the way you routinely do to me, to someone you were standing in line with at the post office? You’d probably have half the line jumping to the defense of the woman you were shouting “LYING MORON” at, for no apparent reason (that is, she wasn’t doing it to you).

No real human in a reasonably normal state of mind acts like you in real life. Not that I’ve ever seen, anyway.

Rather, it’s the right video, but there’s only the one Fauci clip.

I think I’ll take a nap.

Check my comments to Joel on the Skidmore thread.
The video seems to be from an international vaccine conference in 1998. Nova clipped that one tiny bit, probably because it showed how long the vaccine development process might take.
I haven’t been able to find any more video from the conference online.

@ Ginny Stoner

How is directly showing your immense dishonesty in referring to a short soundbite by giving what Fauci actually said “verbose misdirection and obfuscation to promote vaccines?”

I guess in your sick warped stupid mind anything that refutes your comments with science and logicians accuracy is “verbose misdirection and obfuscation to promote vaccines.” As I’ve said accurately over and over “YOU ARE STUPIDLY DISHONEST! ! !”

You’re the one claiming a safe and effective vaccine can be developed in less than year. That’s an unprecedented claim, as the principle Fauci stated–that vaccine development takes a decade or more–was pretty much universal pre-COVID19.

You’re the one who has the burden of proving your unprecedented claim–if it were possible. Obviously, it isn’t, since it would be physically impossible to know the long-term adverse effects in a year or 2.

@ Ginny Stoner

You write: “You’re the one claiming a safe and effective vaccine can be developed in less than year. That’s an unprecedented claim, as the principle Fauci stated–that vaccine development takes a decade or more–was pretty much universal pre-COVID19.”

Just how stupid are you? I explained that Fauci was explaining that since our immune systems don’t work against HIV then a vaccine against HIV would be extremely difficult to develop; but our immune systems do work against many other microbes. I explained this and you ignore it. And you are really ignorant of history of vaccines. For instance, the Salk polio vaccine took much less than a decade to develop. And you are TOTALLY STUPID when it comes to current mRNA COVID vaccines. As I wrote a while back, since discovery of mRNA in 1960s there have been over 400,000 papers on mRNA and since 1990s over 70 research papers on mRNA vaccines both prior to current pandemic. And you ignore that the current vaccines went through ALL stages of FDA requirements, animal studies, Phase 1, 2, 3 and phase 3 had between 30,000 and 40,000 subjects and we now have over two years follow-up. So, it isn’t me “claiming a safe and effective vaccine can be developed in less than a year”, it is science.

And you are totally ignorant of how science advances. We how have tools for sequencing genomes of microbes in a couple of days. Science has advanced. You want to believe that science, including development of vaccines, has not changed in past 50 years. You do realize that the internet which you use to display your immense ignorance is fairly recent. Perhaps, it would be best if you stopped using it and hand write letters to the editor of newspapers.

You write: “You’re the one who has the burden of proving your unprecedented claim–if it were possible. Obviously, it isn’t, since it would be physically impossible to know the long-term adverse effects in a year or 2.”

NOPE. There is NO credible scientific evidence of long-term adverse effects unless first seen within less than two months. So, if we were to go by your unscientific ignorant approach, we would have to wait another 7 – 8 years for the COVID vaccines and the number dead would be millions more. The burden of proof is on you. Give a detailed reference list of any severe adverse events that occurred more than two months after a vaccine where NO signs occurred within the first couple of months.

I suggested you read one book on immunology; but you won’t. I have read a half dozen. And I have read and own several shelves of books on histories of various vaccine-preventable diseases, plus literally thousands of medical journal articles. How many have you read? In fact, I have downloaded and read well over a 1,000 articles on COVID-19 just since start of pandemic. How many have you read?

And I repeat, it is evidence of your intellectual stupidity and dishonesty that you found a short soundbite of Fauci and referred to it. As I explained, one can take anything out of context to prove anything. YOU ARE EXTREMELY DISHONEST.

JUST HOW STUPID ARE YOU? YOU KEEP MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF

To summarize, you believe that a new vaccines can be confirmed to be free of dangerous side effects–even long-term side effects that would ordinarily take a decade to manifest–within a mere year or 2.

Interesting theory–one that obviously every pharma executive and captured government regulator in the world ‘believes’ as much as you do.

Again, what is the latest after vaccination that a documented adverse event has ever been observed? (I have discussed this before, as has Dorit.)

It’s a challenge question which Ginny dodges by trying to turn it into a “prove a negative” response before going back to her favorite source VAERS. If she tried to up her game by going on to the actual research literature, she might convince someone that she actually knew something.

But for the lurkers, this request for long-term safety proof is an old standby of commenters like Ginny. The current knowledge as stated by professionals like Dr Fauci and Dr Offit is that, to date, every condition that has been determined to be an adverse effect of a vaccine, not just an event that happened after vaccination, has been recognized either during Phase 3 testing or in the first 6 weeks – 2 months after the start of mass administration. This includes Covid-19 vaccine concerns like myocarditis and CVST and even POTS which new research shows may be a low risk effect. It also includes things like vaccine-caused polio, GBS from flu vaccines, and several other cases.

So the challenge for Ginny is, show that we are wrong by citing a counter-example that was not detected until later than two months. No commenter has successfully answered that.

Ginny hasn’t done it this time, but commenters often pivot to talking about adverse effects from drugs.

A single dose of the Pfizer vaccine only contains 30 micrograms of mRNA. Moderna has 100 micrograms. You get one dose followed by a second dose a month later and then maybe a booster 4 months to a year later. When I took my morning medicine today, I ingested 1.5 grams or 1,500,000 micrograms! That is a lot more chemicals than in any vaccine. And I take that twice a day every day, probably for the rest of my life.

The ingredients in a vaccine are biodegraded in a few days and practically all flushed out of the body in a couple months. There is nothing left to cause long-term harm other than the changes in the immune system.

Whereas, I have days, weeks, months and years for tiny chemical poisoning effects to accumulate in my body and eventually perhaps cause harm.

So this is a false equivalence.

The bottom line is that these vaccines are extremely safe. Even naysayers like Prasad have acknowledged that.

And the hybrid protection from vaccinating most of the population combined with the immune response to breakthrough infections has made this winter’s Covid-19 season much less severe than the previous two years.

We’re still running 500 deaths a day, so there is much work to be done.

“The bottom line is that these vaccines are extremely safe.”

Just keep saying that–sandwiched in between several paragraphs of condescending, deceptive blather, it almost sounds like you know what you’re taking about.

Not a data point to be found anywhere, but for God’s sake, don’t look for any on Ginny’s blog.

I’ve notice, by looking at my “favorite” (and only) publicly available data source on vaccine injury reports, VAERS, that more deaths have been reported from COVID19 vaccines just in the first 3 weeks of January this year, than were typically reported from all other vaccines in an entire year, from 1999-2020. I suppose, like 99% of the population, you probably weren’t aware of it.

Squirrelelite, your link goes to a post on this blog that I never read or commented on. So I never even saw your comment, nor does it seem particularly pertinent here.

“Nor, IIRC, did you reply when I actually read one of your blogs and commented on it a few months ago.” Did it warrant a comment? I don’t recall anything about the situation.

As for today’s issue, were you aware that more deaths have been reported to VAERS from the COVID shots in January 2023 than were typically reported from all other vaccines in an entire year, prior to 2021?

Like I said, same old same old, back to VAERS
VAERS is not valid for that sort of statistical comparison.
But just for curiosity’s sake, please explain how you think the vaccine might have caused these.
Case 3,4,5 and 10 died of Covid-19. Unfortunately the vaccine is not perfect and several of these patients are old and more vulnerable.
A couple had cancer
In cases 2 and 6 the cause of death is unknown.

And you again refuse to look at actual scientific research such as
10.15585/mmwr.mm7043e2
I’d like to see an update of this study of 11 million people because it’s over a year old now. But it shows that all three Covid-19 vaccines cut your risk of dying from non-Covid-19 causes approximately in half.

After standardizing mortality rates by age and sex, this study found that COVID-19 vaccine recipients had lower non–COVID-19 mortality than did unvaccinated persons. After adjusting for demographic characteristics and VSD site, this study found that adjusted relative risk (aRR) of non–COVID-19 mortality for the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was 0.41 (95% confidence interval [CI] = 0.38–0.44) after dose 1 and 0.34 (95% CI = 0.33–0.36) after dose 2. The aRRs of non–COVID-19 mortality for the Moderna vaccine were 0.34 (95% CI = 0.32–0.37) after dose 1 and 0.31 (95% CI = 0.30–0.33) after dose 2. The aRR after receipt of the Janssen vaccine was 0.54 (95% CI = 0.49–0.59). There is no increased risk for mortality among COVID-19 vaccine recipients. This finding reinforces the safety profile of currently approved COVID-19 vaccines in the United States.

something crawling inside her body abdominal pain which lead to cervical and brain cancer stage 4
This spontaneous case concerns a patient of unknown age and gender with medical history of diabetes mellitus, who experienced the unexpected, serious (fatal and medically significant) event of death. … The medical history of diabetes mellitus is a confounder. The benefit-risk relationship of mRNA-1273 is not affected by this report.; Reported Cause(s) of Death: Unknown cause of death
Patient admitted 11/10-12/19; transferred to Select Specialty Hospital 12/19-12/27 and came to Regional Medical on 12/29 as a direct admit. She tested positive for COVID 12/22/22 and died 12/30/22.
Admitted 12/21/2022 to a local Medical Center for acute hypoxemic respiratory failure COVID positive 12/21/2022 Date of death 12/26/2022
DO Admission Date: 12/15/2022 COVID positive date: 12/14/2022 PRESENTING PROBLEM: COVID-19 [U07.1] HOSPITAL COURSE: HOSPITAL COURSE: Patient is a 74 y.o. male with complicated hx of AML s/p allogenic BMT w/ complication of GVHD, hx of EBV, lymphocytic ILD, NIDDM2, chronic diastolic heart failure, HTN, CKD stage 3a who is presenting with COVID-19. Pt has had multiple recent admissions. He was admitted to Hospital from 10/24-11/03 with acute severe diarrhea. He had been off immunospuression since 7/2022. His infectious w/o was negative. He had EGD and colonoscopy which did confirm Grade II Acute GVHD of gut. He was started back on budesonide and prednisone and started on taper. He was discharged to acute rehab. He was then again admitted to hospital for AKI and weakness. It was felt pt had steroid myopathy. It was felt his GVHD of GI tract had resolved, his prednisone was weaned to 5 mg daily and maintained on tacro and budesonide 3 mg BID with plans to start weaning on12/2. He was noted to have persistent pancytopenia which BMT was following for. PT was then transferred to inpt rehab on 11/29. On 12/10 pt wife tested positive for COVID, pt was tested on 12/11 but found to be negative. Pt had been stable however then on 12/14 pt started complaining of congestion, sore throat and rhinorrhea. His COVID was repeated and he was found to be positive. CXR was obtained and showed no infiltrate. However then in AM of 12/15 pt was found to be hypoxic in 80s requiring up to 4 L NC. With this ultimately it was decided to admit pt for further treatment. ID was consulted and pt was started on remdesivir. He was able to be weaned to 1-2 L NC. BMT and ID followed throughout the admission. Despite resolution of his hypoxemia he was exceedingly weak malnourished and lethargic. He was seen by palliative care/bone marrow transplant and unfortunately had exhausted all therapeutic options. Multiple goals of care discussions were held and was ultimately decided that the patient would benefit from hospice evaluation. He was transitioned to comfort care on 12/29 and hospice team worked to arrange discharge home. Patient passed away in the hospital on 1/1/23 at 6:35 AM. His wife was notified via phone shortly after his passing and condolences offered.
This is a fatal spontaneous case concerning a male patient of unknown age, with medical condition of diabetes, who experienced the serious (death and medically significant) unexpected event of death. A dose of mRNA-1273.222 vaccine, given as a booster dose of COVID vaccine schedule, was administered. Temporal association cannot be assessed due to lack of information on onset date of the event and vaccination date. It was reported that patient got the booster shot and was found dead in the morning morning. The cause of death was not reported. It is unknown if an autopsy was performed. No information on detailed clinical course, concomitant medication and treatment of the event was available in the report. Medical condition of diabetes remains as a contributory risk factor for the event
Apparent hyperviscosity syndrome – multisystem organ failure, death
Patient had a stroke within 24 hours of the vaccination and passed away.
Death, brain lesions, turbo cancer. Diagnosed in June and passed away in October. She was healthy and vibrant prior to her murder.
COVID-19 virus infection 01/03/2023 Unknown ? Tachypnea 01/02/2023 Yes ? COVID-19 DETAILS OF HOSPITAL STAY: PRESENTING PROBLEM: Tachypnea Acute respiratory failure, unspecified whether with hypoxia or hypercapnia COVID-19 virus infection HOSPITAL COURSE: 89-year-old woman recently admitted for hypoxic and hypercapnic respiratory failure secondary to aspiration pneumonitis. She completed aspiration coverage with Unasyn and was weaned back to her baseline 2 L of oxygen and discharged to her facility. She came back COVID 19 positive with worsening respiratory failure and family elected to make patient comfort care / hospice. Family did not want to pursue aggressive measures and opted for comfort measures. Spectrum Health hospice was consulted and managing patient’s symptoms. Due to decline in patient’s clinical condition, she was made GIP Hospice and Hospice team helped manage patient’s symptoms. Patient eventually passes away.

Also, while I’m at it. my recent VAERS search turned up 197 death reports in January 2023.
FWIW, the monthly death reports in 2021 ranged from a minimum of 407 in January as administration was just starting o a maximum of 1231. In 2022, they ranged from 175 up to 1231 in January at the height of the Omicron wave. That matched the previous peak in April 2021.
A lot of those reports were also people dying from Covid-19 after getting vaccinated.

Are the vaccines now 6x safer??? /s

Squirrelelite said “VAERS is not valid for that sort of statistical comparison.”

The question was why there have been so many more VAERS reports of death and serious injury from COVID19 vaccines than from other vaccines. That’s not statistics, it’s simply counting. Obviously, the quantity of reports alone doesn’t prove anything, and I never claimed it did. But when 1 particular type of vaccine gets more reports of serious injury in 2 years than all other vaccines combined for the last 32 years, it’s rather cartoonish not to expect analyses of why.

According to the CDC’s Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices (ACIP), VAERS is “the nations early warning system for vaccine safety,” (see the intro of my CVax Risk page for proof). Part of VAERS monitoring involves the quantity of reports compared to the historical numbers. It’s reasonable to expect analyses and official conclusions about it.

You delved into a bunch of individual cases and slices of data, trying to find ‘bad’ ones or something. I’m still waiting for the answer to the preliminary question–why are so many more VAERS reports submitted for COVID19 vaccines than for other vaccines?

Back to the VAERS part Umpty Ump with Ginny.

The reasons(s) why there are lots of VAERS reports for the Covid-19 vaccines have been discussed here many times. But someone keeps pushing for some other, hidden answer.
IMHO, these are new vaccines with a different technology given to hundreds of millions of people for the first time. There was heightened awareness due the pandemic and the publicity given to the rollout. People getting vaccinated were encouraged to report using V-SAFE and other methods. And the CDC actively encouraged medical personnel to file reports even if they did NOT think the vaccine caused it. This gave them more information to look for possible problems.

It may be interesting to see if the number of reports decreases after the emergency declaration is withdrawn and the vaccines are no longer being given under an EUA with additional reporting requirements.

But, unless the vaccines were increasing the number of serious adverse events or deaths, it doesn’t matter how many reports were received.

If you go outside and check your thermometer 10 times in a day instead of just once or twice, does it change the weather?

Even if we hypothesize that one of these vaccines caused some problem, we can’t test it with VAERS. Let’s say the CDC hypothesizes that more people die after getting one of these vaccines. Lots of people make such a claim almost every day

The way to test it is to do a study like the one I linked to on this thread. And when we do it, we find that getting one of these vaccines actually reduces your chance of dying from all causes after we factor out Covid-19 which they protect against.

So the data contradict the hypothesis and it is rejected.

If there is some other reason why more reports are being filed, I’d like to know it. But I’d also like to know why half as many death reports were filed last month compared to a year ago.

I was not “trying to find ‘bad’ ones or something”. I just picked the first 5 death reports for the two different Covid-19 formulations that were filed in January and copied what they said. Except that after I got a couple extremely long ones , I skipped over other such long ones to get to ones that were a bit shorter.

But Ginny isn’t even interested in what those reports had to say. Apparently she only cares how many were filed and why.

I will leave that for her to research on her own.

FWIW, I did assign a number to each of the case I quoted, but I forgot the WordPress commenting throws those away.

Squirrelelite said, “The reasons(s) why there are lots of VAERS reports for the Covid-19 vaccines have been discussed here many times.”

I’ve seen speculation from commenters here, and opinions. What I haven’t seen are any analyses from the CDC, ACIP or FDA about the massive increase in VAERS reports.

And I’ve seen a lot of people say “so what” here, as if “the nation’s early warning system for vaccine safety” has been an irrelevant waste of public funds for the last 32 years.

I haven’t even seen an official advisory from the CDC, FDA or ACIP acknowledging the massive increase in VAERS reports, much less analyzing the reasons for it.

@Ginny Stoner Number of VAERS reports are compared with expected deaths. Signal would be more deaths than expected.Try this one,though it has been done multipletimes.

Give us an actual documented example of a long term adverse event from a vaccine that takes a decade to manifest? How about one that takes a year? We’ll wait.

It would be the timeline for autoimmune reactions, which could occur months or years later from anything injected into body tissues, bypassing the body’s usual means of detox, which is digestion. I have this link. https://web.archive.org/web/20170913144836/https://www.researchgate.net/publication/318045518_Flawed_assumptions_fuel_autoimmune_disease_The_sorry_state_of_vaccine_safety_science

Also, a reduced risk of cancer in adulthood is a vaccine injury that could take years to manifest. There’s some research showing childhood febrile diseases reduce the risk of certain cancers, this is about one. http://outbreaknewstoday.com/chickenpox-health-benefits-baylor-researchers-report-lowered-risk-of-brain-cancer-69418/

You’re citing Vinu? That is utterly hilarious. Ask some really longtime commenters here about Vinu, who was a regular here in these very comments years ago.😂😂😂

Well if you come up with any evidence-based arguments, let me know. Are you saying there is no potential for vaccines to cause long-term harm? Wishful thinking. What evidence do you have to support that claim? It’s outrageous on its face.

Kids get plenty of fevers without the permanent harm/death associated with the vaccine preventable ones. Thus really is sad if this is all you got.

“…anything injected into body tissues, bypassing the body’s usual means of detox, which is digestion.”

It’s a shame the human body, through all those eons of evolution, never encountered any antigens or toxins via inhalation, skin absorption or penetrating injury, thus leaving it defenseless when Bad Doctors began administering vaccines. Not having developed an immune system capable of recognizing and dealing with outside incursions other than via digestion, we are surely doomed to extinction.

Run, run and buy that giant sealed hamster ball, Ginny! Save yourself!

@Ginny Stoner Try yourself to find evidence of long term harm
As for prevention of glioma, chickenpox vaccine is a weakened live virus vaccine. It should prevent glioma, too.
Chickenpox is not same thing as childhood febrile disease, either.

@ Ginny Stoner

You write: “You’re the one claiming a safe and effective vaccine can be developed in less than year.”

What you fail in your immense ignorance to understand is that whether it takes 10 years or 1 year to develop a vaccine that once developed it must go through the same FDA required tests: Animal studies, Phase 1, Phase 2, and Phase 3 and after Phase 3 when approved by FDA must continue follow-up. So, it really doesn’t matter how fast vaccine developed as once developed must go through same requirements by FDA to be approved. And the current mRNA vaccines have done just that.

And, in your immense ignorance you assume that science, including vaccine development, never progresses. Well, my first computer had 128 k memory and a half height drive. To simply use a word processor I had to use three different discs which I exchanged in the half height drive. Have you noticed that computer technology has advanced incredibly? And when I was young we couldn’t sequence genomes, then could but took months, now only a couple of days. Science progresses; but your biased ignorance doesn’t.

So, I repeat that it isn’t how long it takes to develop a vaccine or any other medical product because once developed the FDA requires the same tests. And, actually FDA requirements for vaccines is much much higher than other medical products, including much much larger sample sizes and several different adverse events follow-up programs, the best one is the Vaccine Safety Datalink. And you also ignore in your immense biased stupidity that many other nations have their own testing and adverse events reporting systems, most included at the WHO.

JUST KEEP MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF

What is the latest after vaccination that a documented adverse event has ever been observed? (I have discussed this before.)

Here are the onset intervals for serious events only reported to VAERS from COVID19 vaccines.

0 days 9,704 9.78%
1 day 8,146 8.21%
2 days 4,056 4.09%
3 days 3,060 3.09%
4 days 2,032 2.05%
5 days 1,656 1.67%
6 days 1,332 1.34%
7 days 1,762 1.78%
8 days 1,175 1.18%
9 days 1,071 1.08%
10-14 days 4,953 4.99%
15-30 days 9,327 9.40%
31-60 days 6,708 6.76%
61-120 days 6,799 6.85%
Over 120 days 30,258 30.51%
Unknown 7,147 7.21%
Total 99,186 100.00%

VAERS does not demonstrate that the vaccine caused it; so it is not an appropriate dataset to answer the question.

If it’s not the data you wanted, then post the data you wanted. Is this some kind of game? The salient point is that you’re claiming long-term vaccine safety can be established in a year or 2, so I don’t even know what it is you’re intending to prove here.

@Ginny Soner Actually, Orac asked you to submit acceptable data. So do it.

The salient point is that the very data you’re citing have proven safety in two years. I promise you one of those entires in your data set is something like “82 y/o female got vaccine, slipped on banana peel in parking lot, hip and odontoid fracture, died two days later.”

The VAERS data are positively loaded with events like that. Did you exclude those? Would you even have the clinical judgement to know how?

Yeti said:”I promise you one of those entires in your data set is something like “82 y/o female got vaccine, slipped on banana peel in parking lot, hip and odontoid fracture, died two days later.”

“The VAERS data are positively loaded with events like that.”

Oh, sure!. I’ve heard doctors in particular really go out of their way to report banana peel slip-and-falls. Sure, only a “small fraction” of vaccine injuries are ever reported to VAERS at all–according to VAERS–but I think it’s safe to assume that a lot of that small fraction is composed of doctors and patients eager for opportunities to report slip-and-falls for no apparent reason, no compensation and no reward whatsoever, except personal satisfaction.

More proof you have no idea what the hell you are talking about. Very few doctors or providers of any kind are submitting those reports. They’re coming from a safety officer, public health official, designated RN, etc. Most organizations (Mine included) have a process to report any and all possible or real adverse events.

I did a quick search and did you know that there were EIGHT reports of acrochordon after the COVID vaccines?! EIGHT!! Why are they suppressing this?!

Worse, there were FIVE cases of steroid-associated DIABETES!!! MY GAWDS! This is terrifying! (No shit, we used dexamethasone in tons of covid patients.)

Oh, oh! there were 1,055 cases of FLATULENCE!! We must stop this horrible vaccine, at once!

Oh, and just for you…check out event 122363-1. That poor person began craving bananas after a vaccine! Banana peel slip and fall still sound so preposterous?

@Ginny Stoner You should really analyse VAERS data. Start (if you speak general deaths) expected mortality among vaccinated.

Aaron says, “@Ginny Stoner You should really analyse VAERS data.”

So you prefer to analyze data before you even know what the data is. I guess that way you have more to criticize. WTH have you done to contribute to this conversation besides offering your 2 cents?

MedicalYeti is suggesting (with anecdotal evidence from his personal experience) that most adverse vaccine reactions are reported to VAERS. That’s an opinion most people with knowledge of the issue don’t share–including the CDC and FDA, which specifically declare on the VAERS site that only a “small fraction” of vaccine injuries are reported.

As far are your opinion that a large number of VAERS reports are irrelevant to vaccination altogether, what’s your explanation for the fact that more deaths and serious injuries have been reported to VAERS from the COVID19 vaccines in the last 2 years than from all other vaccines combined for the last 32 years? (Proof is on my CVax Risk page.)

Narad said, “You apparently didn’t bother to add up the percentages.”

Correct–all data including totals was copied and pasted from VAERS. So I guess you’re saying VAERS is wrong. The numbers look pretty close, so maybe you just don’t understand rounding error.

Proof is on my CVax Risk page

You seem to have latched onto this phrase lately, Gindo. I take it that you fail to grasp the problem.

WTH have you done to contribute to this conversation besides offering your 2 cents?

WTH do you have against irony meters?

I remember my first computers as well. First a ZX Spectrum, don’t know how much memory. The first computer I could really use was a Commodore Amiga 512 k memory I think.
My current computer? 16 g
Yes, we’ve come a long way.

I had the 48K Spectrum. Very fond memories of Manic Miner and Way of the Exploding Fist. Plus laboriously typing in and then debugging programs from computer magazines. Unfortunately I destroyed the Spectrum while trying to fix the damaged plug on the printer…..while it was plugged in.

I still have my ZX Spectrum lying around somewhere. Hated the keyboard and programming, where one had to press 3 keys at the same time, which often went wrong, because those membrame switches were sensitive.

Goodness! Find it, clean it and frame it. 😀

Don’t try to use it though. It will only disappoint. Like playing Tomb Raider from the original PS after playing the reboots on PS4.

I still keep an old 5 1/4 floppy drive and disk around to show the kids what I had to deal with…I can’t imagine what future grandkids will think of that stuff! Haha

@ Ginny Stoner

You wrote: “It’s totally in conflict with Fauci’s views 20 years ago, that vaccine safety takes a decade or more to establish.”

And I pointed out that Fauci was only speaking about a vaccine for AIDs because our immune systems don’t defeat it, thus, vaccines that are designed to alert our immune systems wouldn’t work. Again, he was only speaking about an AIDs vaccine; however, even vaccine trials as far back as the 1950s to far less time than a decade.

“The first effective polio vaccine was developed in 1952 by Dr. Salk at the University of Pittsburgh, but it would require years of testing. Beginning on that February day, the vaccine was tested at Arsenal and the Watson Home for Children, also in Pittsburgh. Salk’s vaccine was then used in a test called the Francis Field Trial, led by Thomas Francis, which was at the time the largest medical experiment in history. The test began with some 4,000 children at Franklin Sherman Elementary School in McLean, VA and would eventually involve 1.8 million children in 44 states. Thousands of health care professionals and other volunteers administered the vaccine and collected results. By the conclusion of the study, roughly 440,000 received one or more injections of the vaccine, about 210,000 children received a placebo, consisting of harmless culture media, and 1.2 million children received no vaccination and served as a control group, who would then be observed to see if any contracted polio. The results of the field trial were announced on April 12, 1955”
[Gil Ross (2016, Feb 23). 62 Years Ago: First Mass Trials Of The Salk Polio Vaccine. American Council on Science and Health]

So, do note that from 1952 to 1955 is only three years, not a decade. And, as I explained, science doesn’t stay static; but develops into more effective and more efficient procedures for many things, including vaccines.

But, as usual, you in your immense scientific ignorance, antivax bias, and stupidity will ignore the above.

“And I pointed out that Fauci was only speaking about a vaccine for AIDs…”

I think you’re wrong. Fauci appears to be making a generalization about vaccine development, based on past experience. Obviously anyone watching it can decide for themselves.

Could you please link to a full video of his presentation at that conference or perhaps the published conference proceedings?

Without something like that, we are just speculating based on one snippet with no context.

I don’t really care what Fauci has to say–he’s a CWAC, and corrupt to the core. I just posted the clip for people who might care, and if they’re committed to a Fauci who doesn’t believe vaccine development in general takes a decade or more, they can look for a clip of Fauci saying the COVID19 vaccines are safe and effective–surely there’s a wide selection of them.

@ Ginny Stoner

You write: “I just posted the clip for people who might care”

So, you continue to ignore that short clips are dishonest because they can be taken out of context; but, of course, you are DISHONEST TO THE CORE.

Fauci is an MD with Board Certification in Immunology based on several years advanced training. So, he understands vaccines, something you don’t and something you refuse to even consider.

YOU ARE A BIASED IGNORANT STUPID ANTIVAXXER.

Why don’t you get a copy of Lauren Sompayrac’s “How the Immune System Works”. Why, because you don’t want to actually learn something that may counter your biased ignorance.

Fauci spoke about HIV vaccine, not vacines in general. You of course did not read squirrelite’s links

I may add that the activation of the immune system activates HIV. This is very unique CATCH 22.
In addition, developing AIDS takes time,so proving that the vaccine prevents takes time, too.

@ Aarno Syvänen

You write: “developing AIDS takes time,so proving that the vaccine prevents takes time, too.”

Prior to Fauci’s Congressional Testimony studies of AIDS had already found that when first infected the immune system did react and lower substantially amount of HIV in blood; but didn’t eliminate. Then found not only how rapidly HIV mutated; but how it had already invaded T helper cells (coaches of immune system) and also how it could even steer T helper cells to attach to neighboring T helper cells in order to infect them, thus evading immune system. So, how long it took to develop full-blown AIDS irrelevant.

NOTE. once T helper cells below certain level, 400, doesn’t automatically lead to AIDS. One still has to then be infected with some microbe, so I actually years ago met some people who bragged they had lower than 400 and were fine; but follow-up months later and guess what???

One was Christine Maggiori. Actually met twice and had coffee with. Nice lady; but refused anti-retrovirals, lost newborn to AIDS and then months later died of AIDS herself. She even gave me free copy of book she had written, which I, of course, read. Still have book, on shelf with other antivax, unscientific books.

I referred to basic RCT endpoint “vaccine prevents AIDS”. Of course secondary endpoints are acceptable in this case.

@ Ginny Stoner

You write: ““And I pointed out that Fauci was only speaking about a vaccine for AIDs…” I think you’re wrong. Fauci appears to be making a generalization about vaccine development, based on past experience. Obviously anyone watching it can decide for themselves.”

I actually found a couple more cuts of Fauci’s testimony which included mention of AIDS and you, in your immense stupid dishonesty ignore that I also quoted Fauci from an article in Scientific American where he repeated what he said about time to develop specifically an AIDS vaccine and why.

YOU MAY BE THE MOST DISHONESTY LYING STUPID PERSON WHO HAS EVER POSTED ON THIS BLOG OR AT LEAST A RUNNER-UP

YOU ARE AN EXTREMELY SICK INDIVIDUAL

@ Ginny Stoner

You write: “Now at least I know for sure that some thing thinks so.”

Actually, not “some” but anyone who understands science, including immunology and actually I am just one of several commenters who think as I do.

I meant “something,” but there’s more than one.

Since I’ve never encountered any real people in all my years who have publicly or even privately denigrated me with such extreme language, I don’t agree any humans would do the same.

My picks for greatest dishonesty are commenters who continually JAQ off about imagined vaccine hazards while pretending they’re greatly offended at being viewed as antivaxers. They also contribute a heaping helping of pearl-clutching angst about negative tone.

Ginny’s brand of disinformation is more direct, though she does score highly on measures of foolish malevolence.

You posted no examples of my alleged “foolish malevolence” because you have none, you porky POS. At least I post data, and manage to act civil about it in a den of hissing vipers. All you ever post is your obnoxious porky POS opinion.

@ Ginny Stoner

You ignore the fact that anyone can cut and paste extremely short soundbites to prove any point. A totally dishonest approach.

You found one soundbite. Here are two more from Fauci’s Congressional Testimony that make it clear Fauci was talking about AIDS:

Dr. Fauci ‘it takes 12 yrs’ [Feb 1999 | Surviving Aids]
[https://ugetube.com/watch/dr-fauci-039-it-takes-12-yrs-039-feb-1999-surviving-aids_pGdTcsdQ9DfYaDs.html]

Fauci discussing AIDS vaccine in 1999, “…well now let’s give it thousands of people and then you find out it takes 12 years for all hell to break loose and then what have you done?”
[https://www.reddit.com/r/walkaway/comments/w7vxb9/fauci_discussing_aids_vaccine_in_1999_well_now/]

Yet, I would NEVER rely on such short soundbites. And I repeat what Fauci said in Scientific American article. Read it you dishonest lowlife:

In an 2008 article in Scientific American Fauci said: “I think all of those predictions of time frames really reflect an innocent but unintentional lack of appreciation for how unique and different HIV is. When you’re setting out to develop a vaccine, you generally use natural infection as your model, or, put a different way, as your experiment of nature. Regardless of what microbe or virus you’re dealing with—even the deadly ones like smallpox and the maiming ones like measles and polio—the majority of people, and sometimes the overwhelmingly vast majority of people, may get sick and then ultimately get better. They don’t die and they don’t have any lasting remnants of the infection. What happens is that the body adequately and appropriately ultimately eliminates the virus and provides you with lasting protection against subsequent challenges [from that virus]. But, the body’s natural response is different with HIV? Astoundingly, of the tens of millions of people who have been infected, there’s not a single documented case of someone who has established infection and ultimately eradicates the virus from the body.” [Nikhil Swaminathan (2008 Jul 28). NIH Official: HIV Vaccine Research “Swimming in the Dark”. Scientific American.]

I challenge you to read the article, available for free online. Just to make clear, the purpose of a vaccine is to prepare the immune system to stop or weaken an intruder before the intruder can do damage; but if the immune system can’t do this, then a vaccine can’t be made.

YOU ARE ONE OF THE MOSTLY STUPIDLY DISHONEST COMMENTERS EVER ON THIS BLOG

I seem to have upset Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH, by posting a link to a Fauci blurb that’s going around the web these days. Oh, dear.

“I would NEVER rely on such short soundbites!” he exclaimed, outraged at the suggestion, which was apparently made by the voices in his head.

Good rule of thumb: “Relied on” is a phase that should never be used in the same sentence as “Fauci”–unless it’s preceded by “only fools have.”

@ Ginny Stoner

Only your ignorant stupid antivax position ignores that Fauci is highly qualified and has devoted his life to protecting the public, something you are too stupid to understand.

@ Ginny Stoner

A search of the National Library of Medicine’s database PubMed using Anthony Fauci found 340 papers. How many scientific papers have you published in reputable journals?

Yep, in your mentally disturbed dishonest sick self you find that respect for a well-educated, well-published person who has devoted his life to the public good represents a sense of humor.

YOU ARE SICK SICK SICK

@ Ginny Stoner

You write: “Good rule of thumb: “Relied on” is a phase that should never be used in the same sentence as “Fauci”–unless it’s preceded by “only fools have.”

Wow! You’ve exceeded yourself in absolute empty meaningless comments.

YOU REALLY ARE AN ABSOLUTE MORON

@ Ginny Stoner

On your webpage “Trolls, true believers, and other lying liars” [https://www.virginiastoner.com/writing/2022/8/1/vaccine-trolls-true-believers-and-other-lying-liars] you include some quotes from me that the 1918 vaccine was not a flu vaccine. Correct, it targeted a bacteria that they found in the lungs of flu pandemic patients, calling it flu. But what you left out in your continued dishonest lying work was that studies found that those who got the vaccine had significantly fewer deaths, so the vaccine worked. As scientist know, most cases of deaths from flu are actually from secondary opportunistic bacteria. The flu virus causes sloughing off epithelial cells in the lungs, etc. thus exposing them to bacteria. I explained this and you left it out.

CAN’T YOU EVER TELL THE TRUTH???

“What I forgot” doesn’t change that fact that you falsely claimed Spanish Flu vaccines didn’t exist. But I’m happy to leave it up to readers to judge for themselves whether you are a troll, true believer, or other lying liar. I invited you to comment there in your own defense, but you never did.

Spanish flu vaccine did not exist. It was a Heb vaccine. You just repea same thing.

Oh? Then why did all the doctors administering these vaccines at the time, and all the researchers and doctors who developed these vaccines, tell patients they were vaccines to prevent or cure Spanish Flu?

All the doctors administered Hib vaccine during Spanish flu ? Vaccines were experimental (there were othr attempts)
Besides of that, it was vaccine against H influenzae (believed to be the cause), thus a Hib vaccine,

@ Ginny Stoner

You write: ““What I forgot” doesn’t change that fact that you falsely claimed Spanish Flu vaccines didn’t exist. But I’m happy to leave it up to readers to judge for themselves whether you are a troll, true believer, or other lying liar. I invited you to comment there in your own defense, but you never did.”

Yikes! Just how stupidly dishonest are you. I explained several times that they did call it a Spanish Flu vaccine; but it wasn’t a flu vaccine; but a vaccine against a bacteria, a bacteria responsible for many of the Spanish flu pandemic deaths, a secondary opportunistic bacteria. I also explained that the vaccine did save lives.

So, yep, there existed a vaccine which was called a Spanish flu vaccine; but it wasn’t a Spanish flu vaccine; but a vaccine against a bacteria. So, they gave it a wrong name. I can put a label on a can saying sugar; but if it is salt, the label would be wrong.

YOU ARE A REALLY DISGUSTING MENTALLY DISTURBED INDIVIDUAL

I believe that if there was a vote on the most dishonest, sickest antivaxxer commenting on this blog, you would be the winner.

Doctors who administered those vaccines during the Spanish flu, and researchers who developed those vaccines, sold millions of them to patients and governments based on the claim they would prevent or cure Spanish flu. In other words, they were sold as “Spanish flu vaccines.”

It’s straight out of 1984 that now, you use a language technicality to tell a functional lie. People believe these millions of vaccines didn’t exist, because people like you are lying to them and calling it “truth.” You know people will misunderstand, but you do that anyway–a game I specifically wrote about in my “Troll” post.

Just another way the vaccine industry is burying itself with its own lies.

Mistake is not a lie. And these vaccines helped against sequalae.
Btw, when you will return to is milleniu ?

Aarno, there is no mistake involved. The CDC, backed up by media and academia, is totally concealing the mass-vaccination campaign during the Spanish flu.

They are aren’t telling people there was a mass-vaccination campaign, based on the now-discredited theory that bacteria causes flu, but that the vaccines turned out to be wonderful after all. They are telling people there were no Spanish flu vaccines. Someone has made the “vaccines helped” claim, but the CDC and most of the rest of the media and academia is concealing the mass-vaccination campaign altogether. I explain the situation here: https://www.virginiastoner.com/writing/2022/3/12/spanish-flu-swine-flu-covid19-and-perpetual-vaccine-lies

The CDC, backed up by media and academia, is totally concealing the mass-vaccination campaign during the Spanish flu.

I hate to break this to you, Princess, but the world does not in fact revolve around you and your passel of bêtes noires.

@Ginnny Stoner Have you any proof of this mass vaccinaion campaign ? Or did you pull it ou from you hat ?

Ginny Stoner is quite content to quote (or demiquote) Dr. Fauci as an authority when it suits her purpose of the moment of trying to support her nonsense. Then Ginny Stoner turns around and writes “I don’t really care what Fauci has to say–he’s a CWAC, and corrupt to the core.” Consistency, with the exception of the ability to be wrong almost all the time, is not a strong point of antivaxxers like Ginny Stoner who understand nothing and write nonsense.

“Authority”? LOL–Fauci doesn’t belong in the same sentence with “authority.”

Just throwing a li’l bone, Doug–we all know how much provaxers love Fauci. Just ask Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH.

Gin-Gin does it again – messes something up and then claims she was doing something else in the first place. Of course the vast majority of us around here are well aware of the fact that antivaxxers are dishonest to the core.

Dr. Fauci most assuredly is an authority and has the peer reviewed publications to prove it. Just because some (apparently) failed lawyer thinks (and once again I use that term loosely) doesn’t mean it isn’t true.

“Ginny Stoner is quite content to quote (or demiquote) Dr. Fauci as an authority when it suits her purpose”

Just like antivaxers who cite the CDC when it suits them (as in the case of vaccine ingredients) while simultaneously damning the CDC as totally corrupt and unreliable.

They need help with those cerebral cortex short circuits.

It’s so much easier when you always believe what you’re told, isn’t it, Pork Chop? None of that annoying reason and logic to wade through, always dampened by uncertainty.

@ Ginny Stoner

You are so full of shit. No indication you have carefully read any of my comments and those you skimmed, you either didn’t understand or didn’t want to understand.

Fauci has 240 peer-reviewed medical journal articles. How many do you have? He is board certified immunologist and you don’t know even the most basics of immunology. Early in the AIDS epidemic he collaborated with AIDS groups. His life has been devoted to public health. Your attacks on him just prove your stupid ignorant antivax bias.

You are the perfect example of the Dunning-Kruger Effect, that is:

YOU ARE TOO STUPID TO KNOW YOU ARE STUPID

While I hope it doesn’t happen, odds are we will have more pandemics in the near future and one could potentially be far more transmissible and deadly. If it is a mutated corona virus, then odds are those who received COVID vaccines will have far fewer hospitalizations and deaths. If this occurs in your lifetime, I wonder what your response will be. Will it be denial???

As I’ve written over and over, I have read literally well over a hundred books on history of vaccine-preventable diseases and thousands of articles and I have the knowledge foundation to understand them, including basics of microbiology and immunology and advanced training in epidemiology and biostatistics. All you have is your sick belief that without any science basics that you know what is right. SICK SICK SICK

If you “have read literally well over a hundred books on history of vaccine-preventable diseases,” then you know that deaths from all formerly deadly diseases declined more that 95% prior to the introduction of any vaccine for those diseases; mortality also declined dramatically for diseases for which there has never been a vaccine, such as scarlet fever.

YOU HAVE ZERO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER THAT VACCINES IN GENERAL, OR ANY VACCINE, HAS IMPROVED PUBLIC HEALTH.

You’re reckless, and if you had any influence on vaccine policy, you’d be a menace. That is, you’d fit right in with the other CWACs (creatures without a conscience).

Hmmmm. You still haven’t noticed that incidences of disease also decreased after vaccines were introduced? That alone is evidence that vaccines have improved public health. So not ZERO.

Game. Set. Match.

You mean like how polio vaccines recently ‘eliminated’ polio in India…even as the rate of Acute Flaccid Paralysis (a disease with symptoms identical to polio) skyrocketed? Re-naming disease is used all the time to prop up vaccines.

Also, redefining the criteria for diagnosis, which was a main technique used in the US to ‘eliminate’ polio. Instead of paralysis for any period of time qualifying, the paralysis had to last for 60 days or more. Since most cases of paralysis clear up within 90 days, it created the illusion of a dramatic reduction in ‘polio cases.’

Do go on. Tell us all about the friends you have with polio.

In the meantime, please inform us of some more diseases where incidence hasn’t changed……

Numberwang, I never claimed the incidence of polio-like paralysis hasn’t changed–I said the vaccine didn’t change it. I don’t know if it’s changed, but it wouldn’t surprise me if the elimination of DDT in the US in the early 1970s had a positive effect.

PS please tell us all about these other cases of paralysis. Since the polio vaccine did nothing, presumably all these other cases are still happening? What’s the most recent incidence of not-polio in the US for example?

I suppose that’s why you hardly see iron lungs in hospitals nowadays, because they changed defenitions.

Renate said, “I suppose that’s why you hardly see iron lungs in hospitals nowadays, because they changed defenitions.”

You don’t seen iron lungs anymore because we have ventilators now. The technology changed, not the definition. I trust we can all agree that we still have oodles and oodles of ventilators.

it wouldn’t surprise me if the elimination of DDT

Oh, dear L-rd, you’re seen fit to exhume D’Ohlmsted?

“it wouldn’t surprise me if the elimination of DDT in the US in the early 1970s had a positive effect”

Well, ignoring that the cases per 100k in the US had already tanked by 1970, that’ll be why the UK had polio epidemics all the way up to the mid 80’s eh?

@Ginny Stoner So you think that vaccines are greatest cause of coincidental disappereance of diseases.

For NumbrtWang, Narad, Renate and Aaron,

I think this one is her version of an antivax claim that polio was never eradicated, it was just renamed as acute flaccid myelitis.

That is a condition that can be caused by several viruses. The polio eradication campaign worked by looking for cases of AFM, then testing for the poliovirus and doing ring vaccination in the area to stall the outbreak.

It’s at least adjacent to germ theory denialism.

At peak incidence in 1952 there were 21,000 cases of paralysis from Poliovirus (Forget the number of cases total) and we see less than 1 case of AFM in a million today in the US which includes infectious and non infectious pathologies. That alone dispels any theory that polio is now classified as AFM (Obviously, but this is for the lurkers.)

Squirrelelite I’ve made a few claims here, none of which has been refuted with evidence:

1- The diagnostic criteria for polio changed around the time the vaccine was introduced, resulting in a large but illusory reduction in ‘polio cases.’

2- The incidence of Acute Flaccid Paralysis (AFP) in India (which has symptoms identical to polio) has skyrocketed, even as the CWACS trumpet their alleged elimination of polio with vaccines.

3- We don’t see any iron lungs anymore because we have ventilators now–the technology changed, not the definition.

All this ridiculous derision and snark, and not a single piece of evidence to back any of it up. I guess incivility is the only weapon available when the evidence is not on your side.

She should stop being obsessed with polio and name all those other diseases who’s incidence hasn’t changed since a vaccine was introduced.

deaths from all formerly deadly diseases declined more that 95% prior to the introduction of any vaccine for those diseases; mortality also declined dramatically for diseases for which there has never been a vaccine, such as scarlet fever

It’s as though the heyday of sMothering-dot-com has risen from the grave and still remembers its lines.

@ Ginny Stoner

You write: “YOU HAVE ZERO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER THAT VACCINES IN GENERAL, OR ANY VACCINE, HAS IMPROVED PUBLIC HEALTH”

How about polio vaccine? Approximately 20,000 paralyzed then after killed vaccine down to 7,000 then zero. Nothing else explains disappearance of polio from US, especially since it continued in world. And after WHO campaign, polio ended in most third world nations, except Pakistan and Afghanistan because they killed vaccinators, something I’m sure you approve of.

How about measles vaccine? During 1950s around 50,000 kids hospitalized per year and up to 500 deaths and 1,000 blinded, etc.

How about smallpox vaccine? Prior to campaign to end, smallpox killed ca. 300 million in 20th century, now none.

Please explain how the above vaccines were NOT responsible for the results I gave.

And I can give examples of other vaccines. The fact that deaths had been reduced significantly before some of the vaccines doesn’t change that they still saved many lives. Start with diphtheria vaccine that killed many kids. “In the 1920s, each year an estimated 100,000 to 200,000 diphtheria cases and 13,000 to 15,000 deaths occurred in the United States.[28] Children represented a large majority of these cases and fatalities. Widespread vaccination pushed cases in the United States down from 4.4 per 100,000 inhabitants in 1932 to 2.0 in 1937. In Nazi Germany, where authorities preferred treatment and isolation over vaccination (until about 1939–1941), cases rose over the same period from 6.1 to 9.6 per 100,000 inhabitants.” Wikipedia. Diphtheria.

I guess 13,000 to 15,000 deaths in mainly children not important in your SICK SICK MIND.

You just keep on despite your ignorance of science, your ignorance of how the immune system works; but your SICK MIND TELLS YOU THAT YOU KNOW MORE THAN ALL THE EXPERTS???

How about smallpox vaccine? Prior to campaign to end, smallpox killed ca. 300 million in 20th century, now none.

Joel, responding as though Gindo is a rational actor is to acknowledge the costume she wishes to wear.

You may notoce that smallpox and polio disappeared, It was vaccines, so they do improve public healh.

Here is a fact you don’t know yet, porkiness. Simultaneous with the introduction of the polio vaccine, the criteria for diagnosis was changed. Formerly, paralysis lasting for any period of time qualified as “polio.” After the change, it required the paralysis to last 60 days or more. Since most cases of paralysis cleared up on their own within 90 days, this resulted in a huge but illusory reduction in “polio,” with a simultaneous increase in other diagnoses involving paralysis.

Just as an aside to everyone else who isn’t an antivax conspiracy nut: Funny how much this resembles conspiracy theories about COVID-19, isn’t it?

Truly, there is nothing new under the antivax sun.

It’s funny how the same antivax conspiracy theories keep coming back for every new virus. That’s what’s funny.

Of course you can give us a citation,but I bet you would not.
Did this happen in every country in the world ? How you can miss permanent paralysis or death ?

Orac I pointed out a FACT–that the diagnostic criteria for polio changed near the time the vaccine was introduced, such that it resulted in a dramatic but illusory reduction in the number of polio cases.

Knowingly pushing a useless or dangerous or ineffective vaccine would definitely involve a criminal conspiracy, given the inherent serious risks of vaccination.

All the virus terror campaigns in recent decades are similar in the way they are run. That’s not theory, just observation.

@Ginny Stoner You still not give a citation of your claimed diagnostic criteria change. Perhaps people do not believe your claims ?

“Virus terror?” Is that like ISIS releasing Ebola in a subway or something?

Ok it took forever but it was a fun academic exercise. I finally found a reference to the polio diagnostic criteria pre-vaccine that is based on real practice at the time. It was used to diagnose FDR:

1) a scattered, irregular, widely spread loss of motor power on one or both sides;

2) no diminution of sensation in affected parts, and

3) diminution or loss of reflexes in affected parts (1)

These are the exact same thing we were taught in medical school (Well, well after vaccines.)

The current WHO criteria are, wait for it, THE EXACT SAME.

“Common manifestations of paralytic poliomyelitis in addition to aseptic meningitis include deep muscle pain, hyperesthesias, paresthesias, and, during active myelitis, urinary retention and muscle spasms. Asymmetric flaccid paralysis may develop and progress over 2 to 3 days. Encephalitic signs occasionally predominate.”

We differentiate it from GBS because GBS:

-It usually causes no fever.

-Muscle weakness is symmetric.

-Sensory deficits occur in 70% of patients

The doctors who worked in FDR considered the lack of sensory loss critical. Anyone who has been through any neuroanatomy course knows why this is happening.

Nowadays we would get a PCR if their stool or an oral swab.

Sorry Ginny, you did NOT post a “FACT” about changes in diagnostic criteria. You are parroting bullshit.

(1)https://jdc.jefferson.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1044&context=rmfp

@ Ginny Stoner

You write: “Doctors who administered those vaccines during the Spanish flu, and researchers who developed those vaccines, sold millions of them to patients and governments based on the claim they would prevent or cure Spanish flu. In other words, they were sold as “Spanish flu vaccines.”

As I wrote before, several times, the vaccine DID PREVENT MANY DEATHS FROM THE SECONDARY OPPORTUNISTIC BACTERIAL INFECTION. If I were alive at the time and got the vaccine and lived and friends and acquaintances who didn’t get the vaccine died, I would be sad at their loss; but super glad I got the vaccine. For me and any sane person, being protected from death and disability great, regardless of what they called the vaccine. Yep, they sold millions and those a huge percentage of those millions who lived were glad they got the vaccine

You are such a DUMB SHIT. For you, the name given something is more important than whether it works or not. A doctor can give a drug for infection with a worm, called an anti-helminthic drug; but tell his/her patient they are getting an antibiotic (antibiotics target bacteria). I’m sure if the patient is cured of the worm; but later find out the doctor used the wrong name, unless stupid and insane like you, they could care less.

KEEP MAKING AN ABSOLUTE DUMBASS FOOL OF YOURSELF.

“the vaccine DID PREVENT MANY DEATHS FROM THE SECONDARY OPPORTUNISTIC BACTERIAL INFECTION.”

Sure it did–one of those fact-checkers said so! It’s called an AVM–Accidental Vaccine Miracle. Where else but vaccinology can a researcher have no idea what they’re doing, and still wind up with a fabulous vaccine? I bet those Spanish flu vaccines were SAFE, too–right, Joel A Harrison, PhD, MPH? https://www.virginiastoner.com/writing/2022/3/12/spanish-flu-swine-flu-covid19-and-perpetual-vaccine-lies

@ Ginny Stoner

I could give references to several scientifically valid papers on how 1918 vaccine protected people; but you would reject them, not because you can disprove them; but because they contradict your biased unscientific stupid antivax position.

YOU ARE SICK SICK SICK
STUPIDLY DISHONEST
AN ABSOLUTE MORON

Which of the above is the most accurate description of you?

Different terminology doesn’t change who and what you are!

KEEP MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF, YOUR FORTE

Speaking for myself, I’m glad Dr Joel brought back the “SICK, SICK, SICK.”

Hehe

Sure it did–one of those fact-checkers said so!

BTW, you seem to have gone silent on the standard population distribution, Princess. Do step up.

As I said before, influenza has sequlae, bacterial infection. Protection against these did help

@ Ginny Stoner

So, you don’t like misnaming of things. Well, 1918 flu pandemic was NOT the Spanish flu. World War I was raging, the flu most likely started in US; but exploded when American soldiers brought it to France, so Spain was a neutral nation and they gave it name Spanish flu. So, moron, stop calling it the Spanish flu.

So I should call the Spanish flu something other than what the CDC, and every academic textbook and media story out there, calls it. And that will make me look smarter in your eyes? LOL. Your sense of humor keeps showing through, you can’t help it!

@ Ginny Stoner

You write: “Sure it did–one of those fact-checkers said so!”

First, the vaccine of 1918 was only used in State of Washington, so here’s a quote and note the extensive reference list:

“In late September and early October of 1918, a total of 4,212 U.S. Navy personnel dispersed among six camps in Seattle and Bremerton received a vaccine developed by navy doctors and a U.S. Public Health Service doctor, made from killed cultures of the streptococcus bacteria. It did nothing to prevent influenza infections (considerably more of those vaccinated came down with the flu than those who were not), but not a single person from the vaccinated group died, while 96 of the unvaccinated did. This was no doubt due to the vaccine preventing (or at least weakening) secondary bacterial infections . . .The state’s board of health supervised a similar effort with some beneficial results.”
[John Caldbick (2017 Mar 23). Washington State Board of Health pessimistic about influenza pandemic in report to governor on January 1, 1919. – HistoryLink]

Note. HistoryLink.org is the continually evolving online encyclopedia of Washington state history.

Also, above paper based on:

Sources:
State of Washington Twelfth Biennial Report of the State Board of Health (Olympia: Frank M. Lamborn, Public Printer, 1919), available at Influenza Encyclopedia website accessed March 22, 2017 (http://quod.lib.umich.edu/f/flu/6330flu.0014.336/–state-of-washington-twelfth-biennial-report-of-the-state?view=image&seq=1&size=175); 1891 Wash. Laws, Ch. 98; 1901 Wash. Laws, Ch. 116, Sec. 1; State of Washington Eleventh Biennial Report of the State Board of Health (Olympia: Frank M. Lamborn, Public Printer, 1916); “Seattle in Ecstasy of Joy at Ending of World’s Worst War,” The Seattle Times, November 11, 1918, p. 1; “Ban Will Be Lifted Here Tomorrow,” Ibid., p. 1; C. F. Ely, B. J. Lloyd, C. D. Hitchcock, D. H. Nickson, “Influenza As Seen at the Puget Sound Navy Yard,” Journal of the American Medical Association, Vol. 72, No. 1 (January 4, 1919), pp. 24-28; Mortality Statistics 1918 (Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1920) 34; “Gives Warning Against Spanish Influenza Spread,” Seattle Post-Intelligencer, September 26, 1918, p. 7; “State Not to Attempt Influenza Quarantine,” Ibid., September 27 1918, p. 9; “Seattle Is Ready to Fight Spread of the Influenza,” Ibid., October 5, 1918, p. 1; Fourteenth Census of the United States, Taken in the Year 1920, vol. III, Population 1920: Composition and Characteristics of the Population by States (Washington, D.C., Government Printing Office, 1920), available at U.S. Census Bureau website accessed March 2, 2017 (http://www2.census.gov/prod2/decennial/documents/41084484v3.zip).

AND, THOUGH EVIDENTLY IT DID WORK, EVEN IF IT DIDN’T WORK, SO WHAT? IF ONE GOES THROUGH HISTORY OF MEDICINE, MANY EARLY TREATMENTS DIDN’T WORK; e.g., cancer treatments, SO DOES THAT MEAN WE SHOULD AVOID MEDICAL TREATMENTS TODAY?

GIVEN YOUR ILLOGIC, I SUGGEST YOU AVOID DOCTORS SINCE VACCINE APPROVAL REQUIRES MUCH HIGHER FDA REQUIREMENTS THAN OTHER MEDICINES, THUS, THE OTHER MEDICINES SHOULDN’T BE TRUSTED EITHER. RIGHT??? AFTER ALL, YOU BELIEVE THE FDA IS IN POCKETS OF BIG PHARMA, SO, OBVIOUSLY NOTHING APPROVED BY THEM SHOULD BE TRUSTED???

“First, the vaccine of 1918 was only used in State of Washington, so here’s a quote and note the extensive reference list:”

WHAT?! There were MANY Spanish flu vaccines, and MILLIONS administered.

A 2010 paper by J.M. Eyler, published in the journal of the Office of the US Surgeon General and the US Public Health Service, described many different vaccines developed to prevent and cure Spanish flu. These vaccines were based on the now-discredited theory that a bacteria called Pfeiffer’s Bacillus caused the flu. They were administered to millions, including military, employees of large corporations, and residents of state institutions. Medical journals published glowing reviews of the vaccines, regardless of their composition. https://doi.org/10.1177/00333549101250S306 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/00333549101250S306

@ EVERYONE

I realize Ginny Stoner won’t be interested; but there is a fascinating book on children and disease at turn of 20th Century, obviously prior to development of many of today’s vaccines, including diphtheria:

Samuel H. Preston and Michael R. Hanes (1991). Fatal Years: Child Mortality in Late Nineteenth-Century America. Princeton University Press. Percent infants who made it to 5 not great, percent with disfigurements, disabilities, etc. high.

And the WHO has site devoted to polio vaccine campaign, showing ending of polio country by country in developing world. Nothing else changed; e.g., safer water, better hygiene, better nutrition, etc., so only vaccinations can explain.

@ Ginny Stoner

You write: First quoting me “First, the vaccine of 1918 was only used in State of Washington, so here’s a quote and note the extensive reference list:”
“WHAT?! There were MANY Spanish flu vaccines, and MILLIONS administered.”

Congratulations, you found an article I missed; however, as usual, you really didn’t read it, did you? I did and have added it to my collection. THANKS!

“The medical profession had at the time no consensus on what constituted a valid vaccine trial, and it could not determine whether these vaccines did any good at all. The lack of agreed-upon standards was exacerbated by the informal editorial procedures and the absence of peer review in scientific publication in 1918. . . And too many trials operated with poor observation and imperfect data collection. . .Increasingly, vaccines were justified as preventing the pneumonias that accompanied influenza. Killed streptococci vaccines were developed by a physician in Denver and by the medical staff of the Puget Sound Naval Yard. The latter was used among sailors and also among civilians in Seattle.”

So, yep, there were a number of vaccines developed; but the only one that I found that did a credible vaccine trial was with the sailors in Puget Sound and, as I mentioned several times, they targeted the “the pneumonias that accompanied influenza.” Yep, many didn’t understand the difference; but some actually did.

The bottom line is still, doesn’t matter what they called the vaccine, flu, secondary infection, etc. You look for every little trivial thing to blow out of proportion. And, also, note that some of the other vaccines may also have prevented some deaths. No way to know since their methodologies were “too many trials operated with poor observation and imperfect data collection.”

Imagine someone has an infection with a worm. Doctor gives them an antihelminthic and they are cured. What if a nurse tells patient they should be glad that antibiotics exist? Antibiotics treat bacteria, not worms. Well, I’m sure you would attack antibiotics, focusing on nurse’s error in naming, not on whether it worked or not.

So, at least one of the vaccines, the Puget Sound, was shown to prevent deaths in a credible study. Of course, you ignore this because in your warped sick mind vaccines can’t possibly work.

In any case, you did a good job of finding an article, even if you didn’t really understand it.

YOUR ANTIVAX POSITION GOES AGAINST STUDIES GOING BACK TO COLONIAL TIMES. 1723 outbreak of smallpox in Boston. Maybe half were variolated (early form of vaccination), and they had much higher survival rate. Keep in mind that everyone attended same church, even when sick. In fact, some died during services, so everyone was exposed. Ben Franklin wrote about this. I realize that thousands of books, hundreds of thousands of articles, etc. make no difference to you because you know in your warped deluded mind that you are right. And again, you don’t understand the basics of immunology, so you don’t even understand how and why vaccines work.

But keep finding articles. I like adding to my collection; but, as opposed to you, I read them closely and understand them.

@ Ginny Stoner

Another article you won’t read; but do look at the title:

David M. Morens (2008 Oct 1). Predominant Role of Bacterial Pneumonia as a Cause of Death in Pandemic Influenza: Implications for Pandemic Influenza Preparedness. Journal of Infectious Diseases; 198(7): 962-970

Did you notice that it is secondary opportunistic bacterial pneumonias that are the primary cause of death during a flu pandemic? So, whatever they called the 1918 vaccines, their intention was to prevent death and, at least one did and probably several others. “A rose by any other name would smell as sweet” except in your sick mind.

I provided that information to you months ago, including extensive quotes from Eyler’s paper that prove there was a mass-vaccination campaign during the Spanish flu in which millions of people, including military, employees of large corporations and residents of state institution were injected. We also had quite a bit of dialogue about it, as I recall. https://www.virginiastoner.com/writing/2021/12/30/spanish-flu-vaccines-a-pro-vax-friendly-research-guide

So you’ve known about, and assisted in the coverup, of the Spanish flu mass-vaccination campaign for MONTHS. Keep your thanks for someone who believes your constant BS.

@ Ginny Stoner

Oops! I gave 1723 for outbreak of smallpox in Boston. It was 1721. Oh well, my memory isn’t as good as it was. There is a great book on early history of smallpox variolation, an historical novel. You probably don’t understand; but a good historical novel gives an accurate description; but fills in conversations, etc based on diaries, letters, newspaper articles, etc. This book has one of the most extensive reference lists I have ever seen:

Jennifer Lee Carrel (2003).The Speckled Monster: A Historical Tale of Battling Smallpox. Dutton Publisher.

Some more on 1918 flu vaccine.

“In the present state of our knowledge of this disease, one is tempted to ask, ‘When is influenza not influenza, and why?’ Are we dealing with a definite disease caused by a specific micro-organism? If so, is that organism the influenza bacillus? Is it an aberrant form of the pneumoccocus? Is it a combination of two or more of these, and if so, is infection with the different organisms simultaneous or does the streptococcus follow the influenza bacillus as a secondary invader? . . .fact that a vaccine made from streptococci protected 662 blue jackets in a camp where Henry found what he considered pneumococci only.”

Note. impossible at the time to find the actual flu virus, long before electron microscopy.

[C. F. Ely et al (1919 Jan 4). Influenza as Seen at the Puget Sound Navy Yard. Journal of the American Medical Association; 72(1): 24-28.

@ Ginny Stoner

I wrote: “First, the vaccine of 1918 was only used in State of Washington, so here’s a quote and note the extensive reference list:”

My mistake. What I meant to write was that, though a number of vaccines were tried, the only vaccine of 1918 so far that I found with credible data that it worked was used in State of Washington . . .”

However, doesn’t change the fact that you in your unscientific antivax biased delusional mind would have rejected whatever I wrote, despite in this case I included reference list for just this one vaccine.

And I’m sure you believe, for instance, that Ben Franklin and others in early 18th Century who wrote how variolation saving lives, were all liars. Not possible that they could be telling the truth because you know that variolation didn’t work, don’t you??? You do know what variolation was???

I think this one is her version of an antivax claim that polio was never eradicated, it was just renamed as acute flaccid myelitis.

Most assuredly. She’s half-assing it, though — where’s enterovirus D68? That was always a good one.

@ Ginny Stoner

You write: “So you’ve known about, and assisted in the coverup, of the Spanish flu mass-vaccination campaign for MONTHS. Keep your thanks for someone who believes your constant BS.”

First, as I explained, it was NOT a Spanish flu. It originated in US; but they gave it name Spanish flu because Spain wasn’t involved in World War I. So, for someone who emphasizes using correct names. YOU ARE WRONG.

What cover-up have I been assisting in? I explained in previous exchanges and this one that, yep, they did attempt to protect people with a variety of vaccines, some specifically to protect against the secondary opportunistic bacterial infection that were responsible for the overwhelming number of deaths and some to protect against the wrong culprits. So, as I explained above, I made a mistake in how I explained it this time. The bottom line is you are a rabid antivaxxer and it really doesn’t matter what they called the vaccines 1918-1919, doesn’t matter that there is evidence that the Puget Sound vaccine worked and possibly some of the others, for you, finding any trivial thing, if that is all you can attack, is what you do.

And, MORON, even if there were no evidence that any of the 1918-1919 vaccines worked, would not prove your antivax bias. One can pick any medical interventions, for instance, early chemotherapy for cancer. Didn’t work, so does that mean current chemotherapies don’t work? There is overwhelming scientific evidence going back a century and more that vaccines do work, they save lives, they reduce suffering and hospitalizations, they prevent disabilities. Not 100%.

Fascinating how you ignore most of what I write and just pick one trivial point; e.g., variolation and Ben Franklin, etc.

So, keep displaying your asinine approach by claiming I assisted in a cover-up. As I’ve written over and over and you are too stupid to understand:

I repeat for the umpteenth time, if you don’t understand the basics of immunology then you don’t understand vaccines because vaccines are just applied immunology. Oh, and Susan Oliver in one of her episodes shows how VAERS had a huge increase in reports linking MMR to autism for a few years after Wakefield’s 1998 dishonest withdrawn paper and then plummeted to very low reports. As Oliver explains, VAERS reporting mirrors current political and social websites, etc. and she explains how COVID vaccines VAERS reporting will also plummet in a few years even as people keep getting the vaccine. You should watch her one episode. Go to https://www.youtube.com/c/Backtothescience then scroll to right to “Lied Suddenly! Fact checking the Died Suddenly” Of course, you won’t, just like you won’t try to learn even basics of immunology; e.g. Lauren Sompayrac’s “How the Immune System Works”

I guess you missed and/or ignored that at least a half dozen other commenters agree with me.

YOU JUST KEEP MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF

You really are NO match for me. I have well over 40 years of studying, learning, working immunology, microbiology, epidemiology, etc. And I devote at least a couple of hours every morning to reviewing books and articles and also found recent free undergraduate courses, seminars, and lectures on YouTube. And if I’m not certain about something, I sometimes phone or e-mail a colleague who specializes in area. In addition, I love reading books on history of infectious diseases, probably own well over 200 just on them.

@ Narad

Yep, there was an outbreak, mainly in parts of California, of acute flaccid paralysis, called enterovirus D68; but it came and went suddenly. However, Ginny, stupid as always, probably believes that all cases of a particular condition must be caused by same microbe. Vaccines protect against one strain of flu; but there are several. Vaccines protect against MMR; but not respiratory syncytial virus, etc. It would be nice if we could develop vaccines that protect against just about every virus; but we have done a good job of protecting against many that in the past caused suffering, hospitalizations, disabilities, and even death. For Ginny, its all or none, great if one lives in a world of fantasy.

@ Ginny Stoner

You write: “I provided that information to you months ago, including extensive quotes from Eyler’s paper that prove there was a mass-vaccination campaign during the Spanish flu in which millions of people, including military, employees of large corporations and residents of state institution were injected. ”

And I found and quoted above from other articles that said the same; but also that some of the vaccines, at least one for sure, worked. So, as usual you find one paper that backs your position and, thus, it must be the only one. And I also own and have read several books on the 1918 pandemic alone or on history of flu which includes chapters on 1918-1919.

YOU ARE INCREDIBLY DISHONEST

@ Ginny Stoner

You write: “So you’ve known about, and assisted in the coverup, of the Spanish flu mass-vaccination campaign for MONTHS. Keep your thanks for someone who believes your constant BS.”

Below is from a previous exchange between us on 1918 flu pandemic. Notice that I write “The fact that they made vaccines.” You do understand that “vaccines” is a plural word??? And I also discussed secondary bacterial infections AND concluded with a quote from an article that included that several of the vaccines (again “vaccines” in plural) saved lives. And notice that the article I quoted from listed below has title: “Efficacy of Whole-Cell Killed Bacterial Vaccines”, again “Vaccines” in plural. So, you are WRONG about any “coverup” on my part. As I wrote above, admitting a mistake in how I wrote one comment, something you never do, that is, admit making mistakes. However, as I’ve pointed out over and over, you can’t defend your position with science, so any trivial point that you find you jump on and blow way out of proportion. YOU ARE SICK SICK SICK AND TOO SICK TO REALIZE IT! ! !

From “Died Suddenly”: Resurrecting the old antivax lie of depopulation (November 23, 2022)

“You fail to understand that no FLU vaccine was made. The fact that they made vaccines for a bacterial infection because they really didn’t even know at the time what a virus was doesn’t change things. Years ago they thought leukemia was an infection because at the time they had started to see increased white blood cells with infections; but, of course, leukemia is a cancer of white blood cells. So, though they didn’t have antibiotics at the time, if they had, and treated leukemia with antibiotics it would have done nothing. So, would you then claim that they had treated cancers with antibiotics???

I repeat, no vaccine was made against flu. They might have called it a flu vaccine; but calling leukemia an infectious disease doesn’t make it so. You read into things what your predetermined bias against vaccines tells you to.
And, even if the vaccines for the 1918 flu pandemic was based actually on flu had failed; but based on technology from that time, so what? Early cancer treatments failed, so does that mean we shouldn’t use later ones based on advances in science? Early organ transplants failed, so does that mean we shouldn’t perform organ transplants?

So, once again, in 1918 they didn’t know what a virus was, though some suspected, so made a vaccine against a bacteria; but even if it had been a vaccine against the actual flu virus, if it didn’t work, based on early technology/science, so what?

And one other point. People don’t always die from the flu; but the flu causes shedding of epithelial cells in the respiratory system which, in turn, can open a door for secondary opportunistic bacterial infections. So, even if they failed to make a vaccine against the flu, the bacterial vaccine they made probably saved lives.

In fact, it did.

“Most deaths in the 1918 influenza pandemic were caused by secondary bacterial pneumonia. . .A meta-analysis of 6 civilian studies of mixed killed bacterial vaccines containing pneumococci identified significant heterogeneity among studies and estimated VE at 34% (95% confidence interval [CI], 19%-47%) in preventing pneumonia and 42% (95% CI, 18%-59%) in reducing case fatality rates among patients with influenza, using random-effects models. Using fixed-effect models, the pooled VE from 3 military studies was 59% (95% CI, 43%-70%) for pneumonia and 70% (95% CI, 50%-82%) for case fatality. Military studies showed less heterogeneity and may provide more accurate results than civilian studies, given the potential biases in the included studies. Findings of 1 military study using hemolytic streptococci also suggested that there was significant protection”

Yu-Wen Chien, Keith P. Klugman, and David M. Morens (2010 Dec). Efficacy of Whole-Cell Killed Bacterial Vaccines in Preventing Pneumonia and Death during the 1918 Influenza Pandemic. The Journal of Infectious Diseases 2010;202(11):1639–1648

According to the CDC, during the Spanish flu:
“With no vaccine to protect against influenza infection and no antibiotics to treat secondary bacterial infections that can be associated with influenza infections, control efforts worldwide were limited to non-pharmaceutical interventions…”

A mass-vaccination campaign is obviously a pharmaceutical intervention. Therefore, the CDC lied, along with Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH.

Also from the CDC:
“Influenza vaccines did not exist at the time, and even antibiotics had not been developed yet. […] doctors were left with few treatment options other than supportive care.”

The mass-vaccination of millions of people with vaccines designed to prevent or cure Spanish flu is not “supportive care”–it’s a pharmaceutical medical intervention. Therefore, the CDC lied, along with Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH.

And etc., etc., etchttps://www.virginiastoner.com/writing/2022/3/12/spanish-flu-swine-flu-covid19-and-perpetual-vaccine-lies

The CDC & Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH–simpatico scumbags.

You argument, however incoherent, seems to be something like: “There was an organized, mass vaccination effort during the 1918 Flu pandemic.” You go on to say that the CDC are a bunch of liars because this is medicine and some other nonsense about: “They said no medicine” blah blah.

Your first argument was interesting. I’m glad you brought it up because I actually had to log into my old institution’s library to research this (Thus, proving I still had access-which was nice-thanks for that.) There was NO centralized, organized, or even tacitly-sanctioned vaccine effort during the 1918-19 pandemic.

A contemporary statement from the American Journal of Public Health at that time stated: “Although it would be better to err on the side of an ineffective vaccine rather than to risk preventable influenza deaths, the early experience with these vaccines was contradictory; therefore, the public should be warned that they are experimental.”

What vaccines were they talking about? There was no single effort. Small, private, scattered efforts by proprietary vaccine designers took place in New York, Philadelphia, and Rochester, MN. The largest distribution was in Chicago linked to a researcher named Rosenow who developed heat-killed diplococci/streptococci vaccines. There are no exact numbers but he produced 500,000 doses. These were all centered around a single researcher with an idea about the cause of Flu; generally they repurposed a bacterial vaccine or cooked up their own.

There was NO central effort by the government, public health authorities, or even a scientific consensus. There was NO nationwide, MASS vaccination effort. A simple google search reveals where you got whiff of this lie and the risable “Research” that went into its formulation.

There’s an old saying in intelligence: “You cannt rely on obscurity forever.” A new tactic by you and your kind seems to be making claims that rely on obscure or diffuclt-to-locate original reference material to refute. No one wants to take the time to do it or they don’t know how; so – POOF you win! Probably works pretty well on Facebook or wherever-Not this time.

Intrestingly, and I learned something new looking at this, most of the rules that govern vaccine trials came out of this haphazard, uncentralized effort. The thing you seem so hung-up on actually made vaccine research BETTER and SAFER.

And, per usual, you completely misstated what happened, the result, the ramifications, facts in general, etc, etc.

The Fog of Research: Influenza Vaccine Trials during the 1918–19 Pandemic. Eyler, JM. Journal of the History of Medicine and Allied Sciences, Vol. 64, No. 4 (OCTOBER 2009), pp. 401-428 (28 pages)
The State of Science, Microbiology, and Vaccines Circa 1918 PMID 20568567

Actually your own source stated, stated, after reading New York Times, that to corporations vaccinated, with a reference to army camps. Hardly mass vaccination.
CDC does not claim tha here were no vaccination campaign, they say tthat there were no vaccine that protec against flu.

@ Ginny Stoner

First, I could care less what you think. You represent one of the main reasons this nation is and has been in trouble. One definition of democracy is a government based on the INFORMED CONSENT of the governed. INFORMED CONSENT means both understanding science and critical thinking. So, it is so clear that you don’t understand science and critical thinking means open minded to evaluate honestly various positions, something you are incapable of. So, when I post comments in response to your comments it is only because it gives me an outlet to vent against the many people like you who are incapable of scientific and open-minded thought, who are locked into an ignorant bias.

As for what the CDC wrote, what you call lies, others call simple scientific disagreements. Since you don’t understand science and don’t want to and are incapable of critical thinking, your immense stupidity and attacks on me and others are meaningless. And, as I wrote several times, even if the 1918 vaccines didn’t work, doesn’t prove vaccines are worthless anymore than if one goes back to earlier medical interventions; e.g., chemotherapy for cancer, that didn’t work.

While Orac prefers one doesn’t use certain terms, since you think in your immense stupidity that I am a scumbag, there is no other way to accurately describe you than

YOU ARE A FRIGGIN IGNORANT ASSHOLE

“As for what the CDC wrote, what you call lies, others call simple scientific disagreements.”

NO, THEY DON’T. 99% of the population believes no vaccines purporting to prevent or cure Spanish flu existed. They are completely unaware that the Spanish flu mass-vaccination campaign even happened.

That’s true even among experienced pro-vax commenters, like those on this site. Denial and name-calling was the reaction when I first posted about it here around a year ago. I spent countless hours just trying to educate people like you about the Spanish flu mass-vaccination campaign–obviously with marginal results.

If you actually read the paper you cited it says that two corporations vaccinated. Something did happen in army camps, too. Source is New York Times. Perhaps he should have gone to Army archives.
There is no citation for claim that pharmaceutical companies pushed their vaccines. FDA did not regulate drigs, then,of course,so it is possible that vaccines based on secret formula where promoted..

@ Ginny Stoner

The CDC website covers an enormous number of topics. Given their limited number of employees, it is quite possible that once someone wrote up the 1918-1919, no one bothered to update it, thus, not finding the articles I found. Whereas the CDC focuses it efforts on current events, with accuracy, older events are of less import. Of course, anything that you can viciously attack as a lie, regardless of actual meaning, just one more example of what a DISHONEST STUPID RIGIDLY BIASED PERSON YOU ARE.

Now you’re saying that 99% of the population thinks there was no Spanish flu mass-vaccination campaign, or any vaccines at all marketed for Spanish flu, because the CDC didn’t have the manpower to compose an accurate story about it. Right. All they had time for was composing a story that led people to believe no vaccines were offered for sale for Spanish flu.

The only question now is, how deep can you dig yourself in?

@ Ginny Stoner

I supplied you with several legitimate articles that documented at least one vaccine worked during the 1918-1919 flu pandemic

And I explained that there were a number of vaccines developed; but we only have documentation that one actually worked.

As for Spanish flu, I explained it was NOT a Spanish flu; but an American flu, intentionally given the wrong name by Allied command during World War I

As for CDC website. There are several possible explanations. First, it was developed before articles I listed were published and given it not being a major site for CDC no one bothered updating it. Second, maybe whoever updated disagreed with reports on Puget Sound vaccine or simply thought it was used on so few people that, on the whole, there was no vaccine. Third, possible that CDC employee who created website just didn’t do his homework. But, despite what you choose to believe, saying on the CDC website there were no vaccines does not mean anyone was intentionally lying, except in your sick mind.

It really doesn’t matter because whatever I write, however many more papers I find, you will continue to be what you are, someone who doesn’t understand science, doesn’t understand that vaccines are simply applied immunology, someone who ignores the mass of papers published in medical journals and on websites of health authorities in many different nations that clearly find that the vaccine saved many many lives. Of course, you know they are all lying because you know the truth, the truth in your sick sick mind.

YOU ARE A DESPICABLE INTELLECTUALLY DISHONEST STUPID ASSHOLE
GO TO HELL ASSHOLE

@ Ginny Stoner

One more point. Just because the CDC got it wrong doesn’t mean they were lying. People make mistakes, doesn’t make them liars, EXCEPT IN YOUR SICK SICK MIND.

You don’t understand medicine, immunology, microbiology, infectious diseases, epidemiology, nope, you don’t understand any of the aforementioned, so, all you can do is attack based on your ASSHOLE PERSONALITY

I don’t think they got it wrong. Those vaccines were experimental and the work of a local researcher at best, or a charlatan at worst (Sort of like buy-my-products Mercola or Alex Jones nowadays.)

There was no centralized, mass vaccine effort under the control of the cdc or any government entity as near as can be gleaned from the ample news copy and published studies of the era.

Indeed, as I noted above, the public health authorities of the time thought they sucked and wanted to warn the public of such.

Many vaccines were developed by many different doctors and researchers. So you proved with your first paragraph that you’ve never even read the 2010 Eyler paper from the journal of the Office of the US Surgeon General and the US Public Health Service–the most complete paper I’ve seen on the topic of Spanish flu vaccines.

Which explains why the rest of what you wrote is deceptive, too.

CDC says this:
“With no vaccine to protect against influenza infection and no antibiotics to treat secondary bacterial infections that can be associated with influenza infections, control efforts worldwide were limited to non-pharmaceutical interventions such as isolation, quarantine, good personal hygiene, use of disinfectants, and limitations of public gatherings, which were applied unevenly.”
Ginny Stoner thinks this is a terrible misinformation campaign. But she just cannot handle three words in same time. She misses the qualifier ” to protect against influenza infection “.

@ Aarno

Thanks! I missed the qualification, so CDC website doesn’t actually say flu vaccines didn’t exist, just didn’t work; however, at least one, with reasonable data, the Puget Sound Naval Base, did work. Given used on small group, thousand or so, compared to millions given the other flu vaccines, understandable they didn’t include; but, all the same, there was at least one 1918 vaccine that did work.

Thanks again for catching the qualification; but I’m sure Ginny will ignore.

@ Dangerous Bacon

You write: “It’s Crazytown.”

Yep, you are absolutely correct; but, unfortunately, “crazytown” represents a substantial segment of our society and puts everyone at risk. Even those vaccinated if exposed over long period of time, for instance, in small office, or those who couldn’t be vaccinated, etc. put at risk.

“Just because the CDC got it wrong doesn’t mean they were lying.” Yes, I learned that in Second Grade social studies class, and I’ve known it ever since.

CDC wrote: ““With no vaccine to protect against influenza infection and no antibiotics to treat secondary bacterial infections that can be associated with influenza infections, control efforts worldwide were limited to non-pharmaceutical interventions…”

THAT’S A LIE. Millions of vaccines that purported to prevent or cure Spanish flu were administered to the public, including military, residents of state institutions and employees of large corporations. No one who speaks English as a first language would never call vaccines a “non-pharmaceutical intervention”–evidenced by the fact that 99% of people do, in fact, believe Spanish flu vaccines are a crazy conspiracy theory.

CDC wrote: ““Influenza vaccines did not exist at the time, and even antibiotics had not been developed yet. […] doctors were left with few treatment options other than supportive care.”

THAT’S A LIE. Millions of vaccines that purported to prevent or cure Spanish flu existed at the time. No one who speaks English as a first language would ever classify vaccines as “supportive care,” and nowhere does the CDC clarify those vaccines existed.

So you, the person who has defended the CDC’s claims above over and over again, is calling ME a constant stream of offensive names and making lots of false and defamatory accusations about dishonesty. Makes perfect sense in the cartoon world of 2022.

@ MedicalYeti

You write: “I don’t think they got it wrong. Those vaccines were experimental and the work of a local researcher at best, or a charlatan at worst”

The fact that it was experimental doesn’t change that it was a flu vaccine. As for “a charlatan at worst”, wow, did you miss it was run by Navy and written up by State of Washington Department of Health.

As I wrote to Aaron, given that millions were given flu vaccines that didn’t work, understandable CDC didn’t mention one used on around 1,000; but valid papers conclude it did work. And the papers also mentioned that a similar flu vaccines, that is targeting an opportunistic secondary bacterial infection responsible for majority of deaths, may have also worked; but even they were used on fairly small populations

I guess the gist here, according to Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH, is that it’s COINCIDENCE that 99% of the population mistakenly believes that a mass-vaccination campaign during the Spanish flu is a crazy conspiracy theory. They have no idea that any vaccines purporting to prevent or cure Spanish flu even existed. But it’s not because the CDC and entities like Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH, deceived them–they just all coincidentally concluded the wrong things by mistake. LOL.

Leave it up to a crazy person to latch on to one, entirely irrelevant thing & continue to harp on it…over and over and over again, when it has absolutely ZERO to do with current events, regulations or industries.

Exactly. It was pretty much the Wild West back then. Doctors were also blood letting, using mercury, using cocaine, etc, etc to try to treat the flu. But, a few researchers were convinced it was a bacteria and made ineffective, harmless “vaccines” independent of one another and THAT’S the story.

Ginny, and I mean this sincerely: Step away from all devices that link you to the mothership of crazy and go for a walk outside. See how wonderful the world really is.

“when it has absolutely ZERO to do with current events, regulations or industries.”

To the contrary, the similarities between the COVID19 response and the Spanish flu response are uncanny–including masking requirements, school and church and business closures, and lots of new and little-tested vaccines.

I even have a convenient pro-vax comparison that might help folks experiencing cognitive dissonance about this repetition of history. https://www.virginiastoner.com/writing/2022/1/12/spanish-flu-vaccines-a-pro-vax-friendly-covid19-comparison

There were, of course, clinical trials and follow up studies for COVID vaccines. Surveilllance is still continuing. During Spanish flu, everyone could claim miracle cure and sell it, One minitrial I found showed that “influenza bacillus” vaccine had very marginal benefit.
Non pharmaceutical interventions are same because both are infectious iseases in respitory system.

Alright :
I was happy to watch SBM’s discussion of Virulent and that Drs DG and SN address some of my own interests and recent concerns; be that as it may, for now I’ll stick with-
How do alties/ anti-vaxxers choose their leaders/ role models/ experts?

I always assume that there has to be a degree of identification with the altie “hero” – that they are somehow, at heart basically, the same. Kent is like Aragorn, fearlessly combatting Evil against all odds, inspiring other lesser souls to fight on.
Warrior Moms Kim and Katie are like Andy, Del and RFK jr, fighting Injustice and the Destruction of Innocents. Preppers follow Mikey, protecting the Fatherland from liberal city gangs and transwomen.
Amongst those I survey, there is outright rejection of experts ( psychologists have shown that anti-vaxxers/ CT believers imagine less hierarchies of expertise) whilst they simultaneously MIMIC expertise wearing lab coats, quoting studies, tossing out numbers and ‘degrees’ speaking ex cathedra about topics they glancingly read on the net as they insult actual experts’ “lack of knowledge”.

A glaring facet of this denigrates higher education as fundamental to knowledge: personal experience and emotionalism substitute for long years of study and hard work. I notice that some anti-vaxxers now dismiss higher education altogether ( Bill Maher, Gary Null, Mike Adams) much as the Right does, supporting spending less on public schools and for assistance to students.
Perhaps these “scientists”, Null and Adams, were rejected by the Establishment themselves early on.

To close, I’ll add that women’s roles in this movement reflect anger at legitimate slights by medicine in the past but focus on the belief that these events justify
dismissing actual research and the role of women in 2023. Hint: many women are doctors and researchers not whiners.

@ Denice Walter

“I notice that some anti-vaxxers now dismiss higher education altogether ( Bill Maher, Gary Null, Mike Adams) much as the Right does, supporting spending less on public schools and for assistance to students.”

I haven’t followed Bill Maher much.

But let’s face it: Bill Maher is just the random anti-germophobe dude. OK, he’s spewing antiscientific nonsense and can’t wrap his head around what is and what isn’t science. But the bottom line is that he’s just a guy that cannot live in a constant atmosphere of medical “paranoia” (as he calls it).

Many of us just want to be left alone.

This is something medicine is not wired to understand.

Science is supposed to be a mechanism to shame unscientific doctors, which this blog does excellently, and remind them of their duty.

Science is not supposed to be an instrument to blackmail patients into submission. It unfortunately is used as such.

I’m REALLY anti-germophobe. And I won’t repent.

Science does not tell me to be germophobe. Science only tells me that some course of actions are better or worse than others if one should wish to achieve a given goal.

When I took the shots, I did it as a duty of someone living in a supposedly civilised country. I endorse science. I do not endorse the fact that getting the shots was seen by my mother as “being a good boy” and playing into the mindset of her medical abuse. If “being pro-science” = “being mommy’s good boy”, I believe it’s perfectly legitimate to REJECT the right of science to morally blackmail us. There are limits to chutzpah.

Just met my sister recently. We do agree on the fundamentals of our situation: this is medical abuse on 3 kids.

Higher education is fundamental. I’m not sure I heard Bill Maher reject higher education. Saying that selling higher education as a way to reach the upper middle class is a scam is not rejecting higher education.

Academia is supposed to create, propagate, and defend knowledge. Which is fundamental to society. Its job is not to be a consumer product and a ticket to the upper middle class. Its purpose is NOT to gratify the ego of parents concerning their kid’s career path. It’s to benefit SOCIETY (not parents nor individuals) by producing knowledge, and defending the worth of knowledge in front of the rest of society.

I also do believe that if society does not recognise the worth of higher education and keeps complaining about academics being a sink for public money, then, yes, cut all fundings. Then, let people discover the worth of academia yet again.

They understand what they miss only when they lost it.

Academia should be only for people who understand that knowledge is worth something. All the fucktards that get into it believing it to be a way to enhance their social standing and please their parents should be kicked out of academia violently. Academia is for knowledge. Period.

And, nowadays, it needs to learn to defend knowledge in front of the rest of society. The Internet makes this job mandatory.

@F68.10:

[I]f society does not recognise the worth of higher education and keeps complaining about academics being a sink for public money, then, yes, cut all fundings. Then, let people discover the worth of academia yet again.

The problem is, it can take years for the consequences of a bad decision to manifest. By then, a huge amount of damage has already been done.

“Science is supposed to be a mechanism to shame unscientific doctors, which this blog does excellently, and remind them of their duty.” WHAT?!

Science it supposed to be a mechanism for arriving at truth. The entire point of science is that it doesn’t depend on anyone’s opinions or moral judgments–the objective, observable data speaks for itself. Only the research design, methods and data analyses should be up for debate at all.

Basically every medical journal that published research about Spanish flu vaccines during the Spanish flu said they were wonderful, even though there were several types of vaccines, all new and released with little testing. Today, most doctors don’t even know about the Spanish flu mass-vaccination campaign. The problems with unreliability in medical research are legend.

If someone is attacking a point of science with “shaming,” it’s either because they have an agenda other than science, and that’s all they have in the way of ‘supporting evidence;’ or they don’t understand the point of science.

In the 18th century, mercury purges, emetics, bloodletting and tying mentally ill patients to a “tranquilizing chair” were common medical practices,

This explains why Ginny refuses modern health care.

@ Monsieur F:

I agree with you on many points especially about your mother. I’m glad you’re not a “good boy”.

Maher has lately vocally opposed higher education in general: ” I didn’t need it” both he and Bari Weiss shouted a few weeks ago. They imagined that they’d be doing as well** if they never attended university ( She wrote for various newspapers and is now creating her own better university with other contrarians). He opposes PH and vaccines because the CDC, NIH etc “got it all wrong”: he took the vaccine*** and “got Covid anyway”; PH measures ” hurt the economy”. Bill doesn’t recognise that “.. some course(s) of action are better.. “. He rejects experts like Dr Fauci on principle. He spouts alt med ideas like diet correcting most illness, people being overweight ONLY because of food choices etc.
I notice that right wing news and alt med provocateurs now frequently replay his comments. Like Orac, I’ve stopped watching him. Maybe I’ll look at videos if he has a guest I like and skip his solo parts. He mentions that he has now more conservatives in his audience. Many conservatives are strongly against higher education. ” Learn a trade”. Educational level predicts voting patterns in the US. Powerfully.

“Higher education is fundamental” Agreed. Knowledge is valuable in itself. Public health should be based on science not politics.

** if Bill didn’t go to university he’d probably be selling shirts or cars in Paramus, NJ – the famous town of malls- near where he grew up.
*** he probably took the vaccine only because his show would have been shut down otherwise even though he broadcast from his home for a while. California has laws about workers/ camera people etc.

I watch Maher. He doesn’t cover himself in glory on medical topics, I totally agree.

This whole thing about higher education is becoming an wider topic and I don’t necessarily think that’s bad. He’s jumping on that bandwagon with both legs, I agree.

There are a lot of degree mills out there. I met folks years ago when I was still in training who had a Masters degree from somewhere but could not format or write a basic business letter with correct grammar and layout. They couldn’t do simple math in their heads. They couldn’t research a topic and formulate an argument appropriately, etc.

When in my MPH as a TA for undergrads, many couldn’t do basic reasoning. Quite a few struggled with something as simple as exponential growth. Later, in my doctorate, we had to help teach PA or Masters students as part of our requirements. I was shocked by how many made it that far who couldn’t balance a simple chemistry equation, etc.

There is also a lot of student debt out there that took the borrower nowhere.

I think it’s a conversation we should have as rational people. Especially those of us who truly know the benefits of higher Ed. Just my thoughts.

@ Dr Yeti:

OF COURSE, I agree with most of your criticisms about the current state of education- who wouldn’t?-
BUT I was merely trying to illustrate how Maher really became strongly anti-college lately** which appears remarkably similar to what alt med prevaricators I follow and some right wing pundits espouse- anti-woke, college students are problems/ snowflakes, trades/ manual arts are much better career choices.
He never sounded this extreme before to me. Also, his new video intro has images of a university ‘manufacturing’ graduates in an assembly line ( towards the end)

I suspect a few motives behind this:
— he said in the past colleges cancelled his appearances
— he appears in red states / his audience is mixed
— he admired podcasters like Rogan for their large following
— red voters often dismiss colleges
— some of this fits right in with his past anti-vax themes: red states agree with both issues

** so much so that I just can’t watch him altho’ my SO may and I watch a real lot of bad stuff

Back on topic:
ELON!!!!!!!
He’s been saying that he will present different views on Twitter, not just his own.

-btw-
I reserved a car for a future trip and was greeted by an image, when I plugged in the dates, of a big blue Tesla, at about 4 times the price of a reasonable small/ medium car and only 250 free miles. Does he pay for being featured like that?

I’m now just like Brent Grinner’s mom. Legs shaking just like that. And, for me, it is NOT the vaccine…

I know what it is.

@ Ginny Stoner

You write: “CDC wrote: ““With no vaccine to protect against influenza infection.”

So, they are NOT saying no vaccines existed; but that they didn’t work. Don’t you understand simple English?

And, as I explained and gave references to, there was, at least, one vaccine that targeted the secondary bacterial infection responsible for deaths from 1918 flu, that did work, Puget Sound Naval Base. And in a few other places a similar vaccine was used; but no data was supplied.

You write: “I guess the gist here, according to Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH, is that it’s COINCIDENCE that 99% of the population mistakenly believes that a mass-vaccination campaign during the Spanish flu is a crazy conspiracy theory. They have no idea that any vaccines purporting to prevent or cure Spanish flu even existed. But it’s not because the CDC and entities like Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH, deceived them–they just all coincidentally concluded the wrong things by mistake.”

First, at the time, of course those getting the vaccines hoped/believed they would work. How is that a conspiracy theory? People were dying all around them, given most knew about smallpox vaccine and now effective it was, so, naturally they wanted to believe it. And, once more, you ignore that one of the vaccines did work in protecting people.

Actually, it is antivaxxers like you who promote conspiracy theories, given you don’t understand that vaccines are simply applied immunology since you don’t understand immunology, don’t understand microbiology, especially virology, and don’t understand epidemiology.

You continue to twist what I write and promote your irrational, unscientific antivax bias which goes against a century of studies, and current mass studies around the world on the effectiveness of the current mRNA COVID-19 vaccines.

It is so obvious that nothing, including well-written papers by Orac, comments by me and others, nothing will ever change your mind. You live in your own world.

And once more, for someone who looks for trivia if that’s all you can focus on, it was NOT a Spanish flu, it started in the United States.

I have suggested before; but will do it again, check out Dr. Susan Olivers Back to the Science website. She is a well-published scientist and tears to shreds antivax claims in a number of short videos, between 10 and 20 minutes.

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