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Justin Bieber: His Ramsey Hunt syndrome is not due to vaccines!

I never thought I’d be writing about Justin Bieber—or this late. However, after Bieber announced that he had developed facial paralysis as a result of Ramsay Hunt syndrome antivaxxers swooped in to blame it on COVID-19 vaccines.

I must admit that I never thought that I’d be writing about Justin Bieber on SBM for any reason, but such are the strange times that we live in today that I find myself doing just that. Sure, I could imagine Bieber being featured on this blog for being yet another celebrity spreading antivax misinformation, for example, but to my knowledge I’ve never heard of him doing that. Also, being the old fart that I am, I must confess that I’m not a Belieber and never have been. Such is life. However, over the weekend Bieber’s name started bubbling up on my social media feeds, with fans sharing a video that posted to Bieber’s Instagram feed, which I’ll repost here:

From a story in Rolling Stone:

Bieber explained that the entire right side of his face was unable to move, and he could only smile and blink on the left side.

“As you can see, this eye is not blinking. I can’t smile on this side of my face. This nostril will not move. So there’s full paralysis on the side of my face,” he said in a video posted on Instagram.

The singer said he hoped fans now understood why he had to cancel a set of tour dates. “So for those who are frustrated by my cancellations of the next shows, I’m just physically, obviously not capable of doing them. This is pretty serious. As you can see.”

And:

“Obviously, my body’s telling me I gotta slow down,” he said, before adding that he’d take the time to “rest and relax” before heading back on the road.

Along with getting plenty of rest, Bieber said he was also doing facial exercises to “get my face back to where it’s supposed to be.”

“It will go back to normal. Just time and we don’t know how much time that’s gonna be, but it’s gonna be okay,” he said. “And I have hope, and I trust God, and I trust that this is all for a reason. I’m not sure what that is right now. But in the meantime, I’m gonna rest.”

The health update comes a few days after he was forced to postpone a number of tour dates, citing health concerns and saying his sickness was “getting worse” without providing additional details.

Whatever my opinion of Justin Bieber as a performer (he’s obviously talented but just not my cup of tea), I couldn’t help but feel empathy for him as he apologized to his fans for canceling a number of upcoming shows because he physically can’t do them, and demonstrated how one side of his face is paralyzed. We’ll discuss potential causes in a moment (hint: it wasn’t a vaccineCOVID-19 or otherwise), but first let’s take a look at the sadly predictable reaction. On Friday, Steve Kirsch stated explicitly Why I’m 99% certain that Justin Bieber’s facial paralysis was caused by the COVID vaccine, subtitling it, “Was it vaccine related? That’s what the math says. Here’s my calculation.” As usual, his “math” rests on a misinterpretation of the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS) database, the assumption that everything reported to the database is caused by the vaccine, and the confusing of correlation with causation, all using his usual chicanery, in which he makes up a figure to inflate an estimate that he doesn’t like. Meanwhile, a fake news site (Vancouver Times, rated as a questionable source) posted an article claiming that Bieber blames the COVID-19 vaccine for his Ramsay Hunt syndrome and saying that the “vaccine ruined my life.“ The article consists mainly of Tweets and a reference to a Daily Mail article that, while sensationalistic, does not, as the fake news site claims, report that Bieber blamed the vaccine for his condition and plans on suing Pfizer.

Then, of course, there’s always Twitter:

We’ll discuss Justin Bieber’s wife Hailey Bieber and her stroke in a moment (something I had not known about prior to the stories about Bieber’s facial paralysis bubbling up over the weekend and that Steve Kirsch also claims), but first one antivaxxer, ironically, came close to the answer without actually realizing it.

No, Bieber’s facial paralysis is not due to the COVID-19 vaccine, but far more likely a consequence of what usually causes Ramsay Hunt syndrome, a sequelae of varicella zoster virus (VZV) infection not unlike shingles. Let’s go through this story step-by-step, starting with Justin Bieber’s Ramsay Hunt syndrome, continuing to the questions about Hailey Bieber’s stroke, and then continuing in a more general fashion to discuss how antivaxxers (1) immediately blame any health problem suffered by a celebrity on vaccines and (2) blame any unexplained death they can on the vaccines. Is it possible that vaccination might reactivate dormant VZV? Yes, but it’s certainly not proven, and it’s not even clear if Bieber received a COVID-19 vaccine.

Ramsay Hunt syndrome is not vaccine injury

The simplest way to think of Ramsay Hunt syndrome is as a subset of shingles. Specifically, it’s shingles that affects the facial nerve near where it emerges near the ear, which is why it’s also known as herpes zoster oticus, to signify its relationship to the ear. There, it can cause the usual (and well-known) painful rash with vesicles (blisters) of shingles on the face, facial paralysis, and hearing loss. I must admit that I did not recall ever having heard of Ramsay Hunt syndrome before, although likely it was covered in medical school. I had certainly heard of and even encountered shingles that involves the facial nerve; indeed, when the skin lesions associated with shingles involve the temporal or zygomatic branches of the facial nerve, it can even endanger the eye.

Facial nerve
Branches of the facial nerve.

A review in BMJ Neurology, Neurosurgery & Psychiatry about Ramsay Hall syndrome notes:

The strict definition of the Ramsay Hunt syndrome is peripheral facial nerve palsy accompanied by an erythematous vesicular rash on the ear (zoster oticus) or in the mouth. J Ramsay Hunt, who described various clinical presentations of facial paralysis and rash, also recognised other frequent symptoms and signs such as tinnitus, hearing loss, nausea, vomiting, vertigo, and nystagmus. He explained these eighth nerve features by the close proximity of the geniculate ganglion to the vestibulocochlear nerve within the bony facial canal. Hunt’s analysis of clinical variations of the syndrome now bearing his name led to his recognition of the general somatic sensory function of the facial nerve and his defining of the geniculate zone of the ear. It is now known that varicella zoster virus (VZV) causes Ramsay Hunt syndrome.

Compared with Bell’s palsy (facial paralysis without rash), patients with Ramsay Hunt syndrome often have more severe paralysis at onset and are less likely to recover completely. Studies suggest that treatment with prednisone and acyclovir may improve outcome, although a prospective randomised treatment trial remains to be undertaken. In the only prospective study of patients with Ramsay Hunt syndrome, 14% developed vesicles after the onset of facial weakness. Thus, Ramsay Hunt syndrome may initially be indistinguishable from Bell’s palsy. Further, Bell’s palsy is significantly associated with herpes simplex virus (HSV) infection. In the light of the known safety and effectiveness of antiviral drugs against VZV or HSV, consideration should be given to early treatment of all patients with Ramsay Hunt syndrome or Bell’s palsy with a 7–10 day course of famciclovir (500 mg, three times daily) or acyclovir (800 mg, five times daily), as well as oral prednisone (60 mg daily for 3–5 days).

From the video, I couldn’t see whether Bieber had the classic vesicular rash on his ear or in the mouth. As for epidemiology, another review notes:

Ramsay Hunt syndrome affects both immunocompetent and immunocompromised patients and has an incidence of about 5 per 100,000 people per year; in contrast, the incidence of Bell palsy is much higher, at about 15-30 per 100,000 people per year. Ramsay Hunt syndrome accounts for roughly 7% of acute facial paralysis cases, with zoster sine herpete comprising approximately 10% of those.

And:

Ramsay Hunt syndrome can present in anyone, and there are cases reported in patients ranging from 3 months of age to 82 years, although patients in their 7th and 8th decades are most susceptible. Factors that increase the risk of herpes zoster will increase the incidence of Ramsay Hunt syndrome, including stress, chemotherapy, immunocompromise, infection, malnutrition, and others.

So basically Ramsay Hunt syndrome is a facial paralysis syndrome that is considerably less common than Bell’s palsy that is caused by VZV, which is the virus that causes chickenpox. As with shingles, VZV can, after chickenpox infection, remain dormant in ganglia and nerves, to be reactivated later. My review reading also reveals that the prognosis for Ramsay Hunt syndrome is not as good as it is for Bell’s palsy. Only 70% of those suffering from Ramsay Hunt syndrome recover normal or near-normal facial function, while over 90% of Bell’s palsy patients do, which might follow from the observation that more than twice as many Ramsay Hunt patients present with complete paralysis of half the face compared to Bell’s palsy.

Facial nerve paralysis
Injury or infection of the facial nerve close to the ear can result in complete paralysis of one side of the face because it cuts off the nerve fibers before the nerve divides into its branches.

Since VZV infections are usually self-limited, the treatment of Ramsay Hunt syndrome is generally geared towards decreasing the incidence of late complications, which can include spastic facial paralysis and postherpetic neuralgia, as well as synkinesis, which is due to aberrant nerve regeneration that leads to nerves connecting to the incorrect muscles and can manifest itself as, for example, a twitching of the mouth during eye closure or winking during a smile. (I’m sure that Steve Novella can go on and on about synkinesis.) In general, the treatment is a combination of oral antiviral medications plus steroids. Recovery, when it occurs, can take months, and the worse the initial paralysis, the less likely a full recovery is, although there is nearly always some recovery.

The point to remember here is that Ramsay Hunt syndrome is actually fairly well characterized. Its cause is known, the reactivation of dormant varicella zoster virus in the ganglion leading to the facial nerve, just as shingles is due to the reactivation of dormant varicella virus in another nerve distribution. Why the virus reactivates might not be well understood but it is well understood that it is the virus that causes the syndrome. It is not a vaccine or vaccines.

In fact, one great thing about the chickenpox vaccine is that it can also prevent shingles and Ramsay Hunt syndrome, as was noted over the weekend by some on Twitter:

Likely Bieber never got the chickenpox vaccine because he had chickenpox as a child and the vaccine wasn’t offered until he was older. As for the COVID-19 vaccine, I can find no information about when or even if Bieber was ever vaccinated against COVID-19, meaning that this supposed correlation between vaccination and Ramsay Hunt syndrome is purely speculative. Even if there were evidence that COVID-19 vaccines could somehow trigger the syndrome, there’s no evidence that Bieber ever had the vaccine within a plausible timeframe for it to be related to his current condition. Indeed, there are case reports of COVID-19 infection resulting in Ramsay Hunt syndrome. It’s antivaxxers doing their damnedest to blame his condition on vaccines, in the absence of not just evidence but even a plausible correlation.

But what about Bieber’s wife, Hailey Bieber?

Hailey Bieber’s “small stroke”

In March, stories started appearing in the media about Hailey Bieber suffering a “small stroke”, for instance, as this article in People Magazine describes:

Bieber shared a screenshot of the Notes app on her Instagram Stories on Saturday, March 12. In the message, she revealed details about her hospitalization on Thursday, March 10 while she was having a meal with her husband, Justin Bieber.

“On Thursday morning, I was sitting at breakfast with my husband when I started having stroke like symptoms and was taken to the hospital,” the 25-year-old wrote. “They found I had suffered a very small blood clot to my brain, which caused a small lack of oxygen, but my body had passed it on its own and I recovered completely within a few hours.”

Unsurprisingly, given the diagnosis of a small stroke, then as now, antivaxxers were quick to blame COVID-19 vaccines, a claim that, as you can see from some of the Tweets that I included in this post, they’re returning to since her husband’s announcement that he has been diagnosed with Ramsay Hunt syndrome; I will not rehash that with additional examples. What I will mention is that her stroke was actually not a full-blown stroke, but rather what is colloquially called a “mini-stroke”, a common lay term for a transient ischemic attack (TIA). TIAs occur when there is blockage of a blood vessel to the brain that resolves on its own, often from a small clot being dislodged and traveling to the brain.

From a news story a month ago

The 25-year-old model explained how her fingertips went numb and she lost her ability to speak.

“The right side of my face started drooping,” she said.

Dr. Ryan Fillmore, neuro-intensivist and medical director of the stroke program at Novant Health Presbyterian Medical Center, said Bieber’s symptoms were classic signs of a stroke, which is a blockage of blood flow to the brain.

In her case, however, the quicker passing of symptoms made Bieber’s a transient ischemic attack (TIA), which many people call a ministroke.

Fillmore said a TIA is generally more short-lived than a full-blown stroke.

“When symptoms last more than 24 hours, at that point, you would be considered to have had a stroke,” Fillmore said. “The other key difference is, on findings on brain imaging, in a stroke, you would have permanent brain damage.”

It also turns out that Bieber’s risk factors for having a TIA were actually came out fairly quickly in her medical workup. About a month and a half ago, Hailey Bieber posted this video to YouTube, which mentions some of them:

You don’t have to watch the video, as I can summarize from this article:

In her video, Bieber describes how doctors found several factors that likely led to her condition, including a hole in her heart, a recent COVID-19 infection, long airplane travel during which she did not move much, and birth control.

“I had just recently started birth control pills, which I should have never been on because I am somebody who suffers from migraines,” Bieber said, noting that she never discussed that point with a doctor before going on the medication.

Fillmore said, in some cases, migraines can point to a clotting condition, and birth control and immobility on a flight can both increase the risk of clots on their own, particularly those in the legs.

“If you have a hole in your heart, then you have an abnormal connection between the veins and arteries of your body,” Fillmore said. “So, if there is a clot in your leg in the veins, that can travel up to the heart and go through that abnormal hole in the heart, and subsequently travel to the brain and cause your strokes and ministrokes.”

It turns out that that “hole in the heart” was a patent foramen ovale:

More tests revealed that Hailey had a patent foramen ovale (PFO), a small opening between the upper heart chambers, the right and the left atrium.

Hailey’s PFO was grade 5, the highest grade, and it was between 12 (.47 inch) and 13 (.51 inch) millimeters, she said.

The blood clot inside Hailey allegedly escaped through the opening and traveled to her brain, which is what caused her TIA.

Hailey underwent a PFO closure operation to plug the gap inside her heart and she was able “to move on from this really scary situation.”

Normally, this hole between the two atria closes shortly before birth, and it’s a fairly common condition, particularly given that people with a PFO and no other heart abnormalities are generally asymptomatic. Apparently this was the case for Hailey Bieber; that is, until she had her TIA, after which the PFO was diagnosed (as it’s in the differential diagnosis for stroke in a young person) and fixed.

PFO illustration
When a patent foramen oval exists, blood can pass from circulation returning from the body into the left-sided circulation, bypassing the lungs and going straight to the rest of the body again.

The bottom line is that, not only was Hailey Barber’s TIA not caused by the COVID-19 vaccine, very likely her having had COVID-19 contributed to the clotting that led to her TIA. However, first, foremost, and always, any health issue suffered by a celebrity must have been due to vaccines, because that’s how antivaxxers roll. It doesn’t matter if there’s a plausible link or not. It doesn’t matter that explanations for what happened exist all over the mainstream media. What matters is the narrative, and it doesn’t matter how often it is pointed out that the COVID-19 vaccine doesn’t cause Ramsay Hunt syndrome or other people who suffer from it are reported.

To antivaxxers, it’s always about the vaccines, which is why antivaxxers are promoting the false narrative that Justin Bieber is “vaccine injured.”

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

126 replies on “Justin Bieber: His Ramsey Hunt syndrome is not due to vaccines!”

Steve Kirsch – Giving RFK, Jr. and Dull Bigtwig a run for their money in the race to the bottom for the Sleaziest Anti-Vaxxer award.

Another loon contributing to the “vaccines ruined the Biebers” story is Del Bigtree ( who else?) who claimed on a recent broadcast that he knows their Covid vaccine status because they attended the Met Gala together ( photo) and that that event required proof of that particular vaccine. So Del answers the question anti-vaxxers were asking.
Never mind that Covid vaccines have nothing to do with PFOs or VZV.

You left out something from the original story.
“Researchers recently identified herpes zoster — also known as shingles — as a possible side effect after six people with autoimmune inflammatory diseases received the Pfizer vaccine…”

Fair enough. But there are a number of case reports and now some studies on this association, it’s an accepted adverse reaction to covid vaccines that only the most disingenuous pro-vaccine zealots will deny.

Not only in patients with rheumatoid inflammatory disease, but all with mild cases and within a few days after the vaccine. Thinking it’s relevant is taking it pretty far.

Yeah, right, cuz no one ever got shingles before “the vaccine” came along, amirite? (I notice you don’t specify which “the vaccine” is allegedly at fault here — there’s more than one you know.)

So Justin Bieber would have been vaccinated for COVID-19 by the middle of 2021 at the latest. And we are expected that would cause Ramsay Hunt Syndrome almost a year later?

Anti-vaxxers really are dim.

I think that Del was referring to the most recent Met Gala which was May 2022. There was also one in September 2021.
So it’s possible that JB was vaccinated recently to comply .

Justin Bieber didn’t attend the 2022 Met Gala. Strangely for the doings of celebrities it takes a lot of searching to find out who was on the guest list for the Met Gala. The first few pages of search results are speculation before the gala of who will be there. It appears that once it is over, nobody cares.

@ ChrisP:

You’re right!
I searched images for both Met Galas:
2021- Hailey wore the black dress as shown above and in Del’s video AND Justin attended with her- many photos
2022 – she wore a white dress with feathers but no Justin- many photos
( Oddly the black dress photo is labeled wrong as 2022 a few times )

2022 was in May, I guess he was already affected

If Ramsey Hunt syndrome is a subset of shingles and shingles is a known possible side effect of the vaccine, then isn’t it possible that it could have been caused by the vaccine. I’m not saying that it was but it seems possible.

Shingles is caused by the Chicken Pox virus.

It is not inconceivable that the vaccine triggered a flare up, but there’s no evidence that he was recently vaccinated.

Your own article shows a photo of Bieber and Haley at the Met Gala–where all attendees were required to be vaccinated. You were THAT CLOSE to the evidence, but missed it. You try to argue against those who say the vaccine caused Bieber’s Ramsey Hunt syndrome by saying it is caused by a virus, not the vaccine. Really? You think folks proposing this don’t know that? They do. They just recognize that a lot of vaccine-injured people are reporting recurrence of suppressed viruses (mechanisms are known/published), and shingles is among them. Shingles is frequently reported in VAERS in temporal proximity to vaccination, but you probably blame it on coincidence. Anyway, the chain of causation leads back to vaccination as a plausible explanation. Your analysis does nothing to debunk that because you did not address the facts that serious critics have cited.

OK, I’ll bite.

You say the mechanisms are “known” and “published”? OK, then. Show us the peer-reviewed biomedical literature elucidating these mechanisms and evidence that COVID-19 vaccines activate them.

Let’s just say that I can see why this paper was published in the Journal of Cosmetic Dermatology and not a virology, neurology, or infectious disease journal.

Ok and it doesn’t really stand for much. But how likely is such a study to get through the group think and pharma journal funding? ???

Deflection. Coward.

Any comments on the actual study, other than where it was published? And by the way, a journal on dermatology is appropriate for a paper on shingles reactivation.

John, that is not a ‘study’. I’ll write that off to your lack of knowledge rather than your consistent dishonesty. They simply searched for studies that had been done, first using a dictionary of keywords, then they filtered things down to meet their criteria. That’s discussed in their Methods summary and illustrated in their Figure 1. They came away with a whole lot of nothing, which their results hint at:

Results: A total of 54 cases consisting of 27 male and 27 female patients have been reported. There were cases with known risk factors for herpes zoster, which included age more than 50 years (n = 36), immunological disorders (n = 10), chronic disease (n = 25), metabolic disorder (n = 13), malignancy (n = 4), and psychiatric disorder (n = 2). The mean (SD) period between development of herpes zoster and COVID-19 vaccination was 7.64 (6.92) days. Majority of the cases were from the high-income and/or middle-income countries. 86.27% of the cases of HZ were reported due to mRNA vaccine. Thirty-six patients 36/45 (80%) developed herpes zoster following the priming dose of COVID-19 vaccine among those who received mRNA vaccine.

and their summarized conclusion clearly states (the longer conclusion is in the PDF, not included here)

Conclusion: We could not establish definite link but there may be possible association between COVID-19 vaccine and shingles. Large-scale studies may help to understand the cause-effect relationship.

That’s not to say they seem to really wanted to show a link: in the opening paragraph of Section 4.1 (“Is there a medical or biological basis for an increased risk of COVID‐19 vaccine‐induced HZ?”) they discuss some risk factors then have this:

Studies have reported cross‐reactivity between spike protein and self‐antigen may lead to development of immune‐mediated disorders in COVID‐19 patients in the long run. The authors hypothesized that similar response can happen following COVID‐19 vaccine.

For the rest — they suggest ideas for further studies, but the bigger picture remains: there is nothing in this little report that indicates a support for a link. You clowns salivate over something because you think you understand it — but you never do.

Support what- they said it was worth doing larger studies. I’m aware of their results. But what incentive do the manufactures have to embark on such studies if they can just put it on a forced vaccine schedule?

But would you believe the larger studies if they were carried out?

I doubt it. Unless they showed something that agreed with your preconceptions. You’d far rather believe small studies that agree with you, no matter how limited they are.

Since anti-vaxxers,and the people who glom onto them for political reasons, won’t believe anything that counters their beliefs, where is the incentive to run studies to answer their questions? Might as well run studies that religious people think will prove the existence of god. You think they’d believe a negative answer? Nope, it would be rationalized away.

Support what- they said it was worth doing larger studies. I’m aware of their results. But what incentive do the manufactures have to embark on such studies if they can just put it on a forced vaccine schedule?

And you triple down on your stupidity. Why did I expect you to actually be interested in facts?

NumberWang wrote about labarge:

But would you believe the larger studies if they were carried out?

No, he wouldn’t. He’s already stated a couple different ways that he doesn’t believe any randomized trial. You have to wonder why he keeps calling for them.

@Aarno – the link to “postmarketing-experience.pdf” works for me. I can’t work out what’s supposed to be special about page 22, though. It’s one page of a long table, and there are several table entries on page 22.

I can’t work out what’s supposed to be special about page 22, though.

It has the word ‘zoster’ on it. It’s all “Sue Lyon gets the distributor cap” from there.

Perhaps you missed the conclusion:
We could not establish definite link but there may be possible association between COVID-19 vaccine and shingles. Large-scale studies may help to understand the cause-effect relationship.
They say, too, that here were cases with known risk factors for herpes zoster

So the Pfizer doc calls for studies. How many have they funded? I mean seeming as they are altruistic and there is no liability or market check necessary on all the altruistic Pfizer managers, scientists and executives right? They must have a large scale study checkin on it.

@john labarge why do think it is “Pfizer doc” ; Besides of that it was “large scale studies may help”

Admittedly mostly case reports and preliminary studies, but this is exactly what is to be expected given that this is a new vaccine.

What to know about shingles and the COVID-19 vaccine
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/shingles-after-covid-vaccine

Can SARS-CoV-2 vaccine increase the risk of reactivation of Varicella zoster? A systematic review
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34719084/

“The mean (SD) period between development of herpes zoster and COVID-19 vaccination was 7.64 (6.92) days. Majority of the cases were from the high-income and/or middle-income countries. 86.27% of the cases of HZ were reported due to mRNA vaccine. Thirty-six patients 36/45 (80%) developed herpes zoster following the priming dose of COVID-19 vaccine among those who received mRNA vaccine.”

A rare case of shingles after COVID-19 vaccine: is it a possible adverse effect?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8217581/

“He reported that he got his second dose of COVID-19 vaccine 5 days ago. As COVID 19 decreases the cell-mediated immunity, it could also increase the risk of herpes zoster (HZ). Although the exact reason remains unsolved, vaccine-induced immunomodulation caused by live attenuated vaccines and attenuated alloreactivity caused by inactivated vaccines may be responsible mechanisms for the reactivation of HZ. Epidemiological studies are needed to clarify the possible connection between vaccination and reactivation of herpesvirus infections.”

Varicella Zoster Virus Reactivation Following COVID-19 Vaccination: A Systematic Review of Case Reports
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34579250/

“On average, symptoms developed 5.8 days post-vaccination irrespective of dose and treatment with oral valacyclovir as a monotherapy was employed in most patients (23/91). HZ is possibly a condition clinicians may expect to encounter in patients receiving COVID-19 vaccines.”

Real-world evidence from over one million COVID-19 vaccinations is consistent with reactivation of the varicella-zoster virus
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jdv.18184

“Consistent with the hypothesis, a higher incidence of HZ was statistically detectable post-COVID-19 vaccine. Accordingly, the eruption of HZ may be a rare adverse drug reaction to COVID-19 vaccines. Even though the molecular basis of VZV reactivation remains murky, temporary compromising of VZV-specific T-cell-mediated immunity may play a mechanistic role in post-vaccination pathogenesis of HZ. Note that VZV reactivation is a well-established phenomenon both with infections and with other vaccines (i.e. this adverse event is not COVID-19-specific).”

Varicella zoster virus reactivation and mRNA vaccines as a trigger [Letter]
https://www.jaadcasereports.org/article/S2352-5126(21)00491-4/pdf

Did you read this part:
A total of 54 cases consisting of 27 male and 27 female patients have been reported. There were cases with known risk factors for herpes zoster, which included age more than 50 years (n = 36), immunological disorders (n = 10), chronic disease (n = 25), metabolic disorder (n = 13), malignancy (n = 4), and psychiatric disorder (n = 2).
Combine risk factors: 36 + 10 + 25 + 13 + 4 + 2 = 90. Many had multiple risk factors.

“Anyway, the chain of causation leads back to vaccination as a plausible explanation. ”

What “chain of causation”? You have a timeline but nothing else.

There is article about varicella zoster virus activation:
Kennedy PG, Rovnak J, Badani H, Cohrs RJ. A comparison of herpes simplex virus type 1 and varicella-zoster virus latency and reactivation. J Gen Virol. 2015;96(Pt 7):1581-1602. doi:10.1099/vir.0.000128
Reducing NGF (nerve growth factor) seems to activate herpesviruses

Interesting that you do not mention Del Bigtree’s extensive coverage of this issue on his latest weekly The Highwire. Why would that be? Is it because Del is quite reasonable and admits that at this time we don’t know whether either his or his wife’s conditions were caused by Covid vaccines? Is it because the information in this segment completely destroys your narrative on Justin’s case? Just in case you missed it, I suggest you watch it and pay close attention, you just might learn something about the science involved:

https://thehighwire.com/videos/was-justin-biebers-facial-paralysis-caused-by-the-covid-shot/

Your commentary on Haley Bieber’s condition just documents your ignorance as well as your rank and never-ending bias. Are you really trying to argue that Covid 19 vaccines do not contribute to clotting and strokes? You do mention that it was “very likely her having had COVID-19 contributed to the clotting that led to her TIA”. So Covid-19 can contribute to clotting, but Covid-19 vaccines cannot. Do I have that about right?

There is no limit to the stupid here.

Nice use of Straw Man arguments, as well as Betteridge’s Law of Headlines.
Firstly, Del Bigtree has been an antivaxxer for years, as detailed on this blog and elsewhere.
Secondly, you are reaching w.r.t. what Orac is or isn’t saying about vaccines. What we know is that Hailey Bieber had a number of conditions that raise the risk of TIA. And just because a disease can cause a condition (like clotting), it doesn’t automatically follow that the vaccine will do the same. COVID-19 vaccines might cause clotting, but that is by no means confirmed.

There’s evidence of blood clots following the AstraZeneca vaccine:

Blood clots after the vaccine are rare. These 438 cases of blood clots are after an estimated 24.9 million first doses, and 24.2 million second doses of the vaccine in the UK. Of the 438 people who developed blood clots, 79 died. Six of these deaths occurred after the second dose.

What the lying turd eater inevitable fails to mention is that 1. the risk of blood clots caused by the COVID vaccine is low, around 1 in 100,000; and 2. the risk of blood clots caused by COVID itself is far higher.

Of course, anti-vaxxer logic states that any risk from a vaccine, no matter how miniscule, is outright unacceptable; while the number of deaths caused by the disease are not their fault, not their problem. They didn’t do anything, after all. It’s pathological passive-aggressiveness / oppositional defiant disorder notched up to eleven; or how to kill people without really trying.

Vaccination against deadly crippling disease is the world’s simplest trolley problem. And these bastards choose to pull the lever to maximize casualties, just because pulling that lever demonstrates they have power.

Our own mistake is to ask “How can some people be so inhuman?”, instead of recognizing that some people are inhuman and asking “How do we protect our lives and health from them as well?”

Not only are clots after the vaccine rarer than clots after the disease, but so far as I know, the blood clot issues after the vaccine have only occurred with the viral vector vaccines like AstroZenica. The mRNA vaccines (which have been far more common here) haven’t had any issues like that at all.

On top of that, as Orac has said in the past, the fact that the clotting issues were noticed and given official attention despite their rather low probability shows that vaccines are well-tested and that the monitoring system works.

“shows that vaccines are well-tested and that the monitoring system works”

Indeed. Evidence of efficacy which antivaxxers completely ignore, of course, as it refuses to comply with their narcissistic truth.

(Not that it really matters: even if a vaccine was found to be absolutely perfectly 100% safe they would still destroy it anyway just to prove they have power.)

Provaxxers try to use force – to force others to be vaccinated or lose their livelihood or ability to travel etc. With force, safety demands go up. Without force 1) it’s up to the individual to judge their risk and 2) the market can help incentivize safety (would also help if manufacturers didn’t enjoy very broad protections from suit).

the market can help incentivize safety

why are you right wing libertarian a-holes so amazingly stupid about “the market”? I get that you chose that “philosophy” because it means you never have to study or think about complex issues, but good lord, it paints you folks in yet another bad light.

As opposed to the fascist authoritarian take this medicine because the government says so? And don’t worry about those harmed by it – they must have been infirm … You mean as opposed to that?

Once again, you show that you make your medical decisions based on politics, not on scientific research.
And yet, you still think that people should listen to you…

“why are you right wing libertarian a-holes so amazingly stupid about “the market”?”

Narcissists, man. If they say it, then it’s True. Imagine a giant colon, flying through space, eating planets. You can’t reason with that. It’s the Stupidest Galactus.

“Provaxxers try to use force – to force others to be vaccinated or lose their livelihood or ability to travel etc.”

Anti-vaxxers try to use force- to force vulnerable people to isolate themselves from fear. To force businesses to close due to lack of staff.

As opposed to the fascist authoritarian

Not even close — as has been pointed out multiple times, fascism is a rightwing stance — very close to the horrible position you take.

take this medicine because the government says so?

And don’t worry about those harmed by it – they must have been infirm …

Well, there is this thing called evidence that’s needed to show harm — and you piss-stupid clowns haven’t shown any.

You mean as opposed to that?

My comment was about your ignorant belief that “the market” will correct things on its own. That’s as much a fantasy as the “millions of people harmed be vaccines” bullshit notion you and the other uneducated clowns push. On a more subtle level, it was asking whether there were any shreds of decency or intelligence in you. Your response shows the answers are “No”.

Employers do not want their employees be sick. This is a quite market force.
As I have ssia multiple times, regulation by lawsuit is US thing. Are products in these countries horrible unsafe ?

Confirmed re adenovirus vector vaccines and probably re mRNA.

You’re really not good at this “commenting” business, are you? Was that sentence fragment intended for your invisible friend?

<

blockquote>Confirmed … and probably

<

blockquote>

Even if john’s vomited post was a sentence, how do “confirmed” and “probably” go together? Something like

Confirmed, my trigeminal neuralgia is probably due to the accident where I suffered a severe cut on my left heel

Really john, you seem to be going downhill.

“Why would that be?”

Because Del lies like a pig in shit. Duh. Same as you. In fact, our host has excoriated Bigtree on numerous occasions but it’s only fair that other lying liars occasionally enjoy their turn in the glare; Del’s enormous attention-hogging ego notwithstanding.

As to your own witless babble about clotting: you know what else causes clotting? COVID19. So congratulations: not only do you antivaxxers cause Ramsay Hunt (because RH is caused by varicella-zoster virus, which is vaccine-preventable), you also cause TIAs, DVTs, and strokes too. I’ll give those viruses their due: nasty as they may be, you don’t see them fucking people over simply to gain attention. So who’s the real disease?

Del Bigtree is “quite reasonable”? No Del Bigtee delayed treatment of anaemia from his haemorrhoids until he could source a blood donor who had not been vaccinated against COVID-19. He is a raving loony.

David, yes, it’s round-the-clock pharma theater here, and, to even participate, it’s useful to utilize ‘suspension of disbelief’. Thanks for providing the Highwire link.

I am pleased to see thar Del is also bringing up Dr Williams argument that suppression of the TLRs might be responsible for Beieber’s condition and monkeypox.. I have also brought up his argument, but the Choir here don’t seem keen to engage despite all my proddings. Yet, what I consider is even a bigger smoking gun is the fact that no health authorities are releasing the vaccination status of monkeypox victims. Again, the Choir here are rather reserved in their reactions to this.

I have also brought up his argument, but the Choir here don’t seem keen to engage despite all my proddings.

Probably because del and you are congenital liars who have no idea what you’re talking about.

I suspect that no health authorities have even given a thought to keeping the ignorant sheep in the anti-vaxxer brigade informed. It would be like handing a spanner to a baby, they can’t undo any nuts and they might just hit the dog with it.

I suspect that no health authorities have even given a thought to keeping the ignorant sheep in the anti-vaxxer brigade informed. It would be like handing a spanner to a baby, they can’t undo any nuts and they might just hit the dog with it.

Numb, are you seriously suggesting that health authorities are deliberately withholding monkeypox health data from the public under the pretext that they don’t want it to get abused by ‘antivaxxers’?

Everyone, watch me do my best SNL’s nasal, Church Lady. ‘ Well, isn’t that spe-cial! I suppose they haven’t done that before!’

C’mon, Narad, that was a damn good impersonation!

PS: I am working on being even more humble. I won’t hog this thread, and will give other ‘antivaxxers’ a chance to share their thoughts. JT, Aarno, Foolish Physicist, Joel and other immunology experts here, please feel to join me on the ‘Kirsch’ thread and share your thoughts about monkeypox and TLRs.

I would also invite Athaic, but I am not sure whether she is qualified enough to participate. Hope she doesn’t read this and get hurt feelings. In fairness, she is trying very hard.

Choir does not like your arguments, because they do not make sense. There is artilcle about herpesvirus activation:
Kennedy PG, Rovnak J, Badani H, Cohrs RJ. A comparison of herpes simplex virus type 1 and varicella-zoster virus latency and reactivation. J Gen Virol. 2015;96(Pt 7):1581-1602. doi:10.1099/vir.0.000128
Nerve Growth factor seems to involved

“…what I consider is even a bigger smoking gun is the fact that no health authorities are releasing the vaccination status of monkeypox victims.”

But not as shocking as the CDC’s failure to release the vaccination status of people diagnosed with hyperhidrosis, serial killers and victims of falling in bathtubs. There are so many smoking guns there, the E.P.A. needs to issue an air quality alert.

Greg, what the heck with you and this sudden obsession with TLR4?

TLR4 reacts to LPS, a bacterial sugar.
Not, repeat not to single-stranded RNA, double-stranded RNA or to DNA.

Monkeypox (like all orthopox viruses) is a DNA virus.
VSV is also a DNA virus.

Neither of them make LPS, so even if a person had no TLR4 expression at all, their immune system would still be able to respond to a DNA virus.

Therefore there is exactly zero point in banging on about if the people with monkeypox had gotten an mRNA COVID vaccine or not.

We all know you’re against all vaccines. Go find a new drum to bang on.

Greg, what the heck with you and this sudden obsession with TLR4?

He’s too lazy to come up with new material, that’s what. Everybody is thus stuck with his trying to assign new “meanings” to old words.

Greg, what the heck with you and this sudden obsession with TLR4?

JT, I am trying to be humble and leave this thread for other ‘antivaxxers’ to weigh in. Let’s stick to the ‘Kirsch’ thread.

Anyway, nice strawman. Is TLR4 the only TLR. Last I heard, there were nine others functioning in humans.

So tell us what Toll like receptor you are speaking about ? TLR9 is active against NA viruses.

“Greg, what the heck with you and this sudden obsession with TLR4?”

Gerg fancies himself as the head of the Human Centipede, even though everybody knows he’s the tail.

” Is it because Del is quite reasonable and admits that at this time we don’t know whether either his or his wife’s conditions were caused by Covid vaccines?

That’s like a dog whistle but for reasonable people. He’s ‘just asking questions’ but adds in a bit of uncertainty to maintain a connection to those people who would otherwise conclude that he has far too high opinion of his own knowledge. He used to work on a TV program with doctors you know? That’s practically a PhD.

“Del is quite reasonable…you just might learn something about the science involved…There is no limit to the stupid here”

“Yes, I always learn the best science from a grandstanding yellow TV hack.”

Ah, antivaxxers. No standards too high for everyone else; no standards too low for themselves. And then throw shit fits because we dare to laugh. That’s NPD in a nutshell. It’s embarrassing.

I guess Del must have attended the seminar on “How To Reasonable on Your Podcadt” offered by Sam Harris… ; – )

Covid vaccines CAN cause Ramsay Hunt syndrome! https://pmj.bmj.com/content/early/2022/01/05/postgradmedj-2021-141022

The vaccines CAN reactivate VZV!

It is known that the covid vaccines can cause Bell’s Palsy. Why would it be so unlikely that it also caused this young man’s case of Ramsay Hunt syndrome?

Orac DOES NOT KNOW if this case was caused by covid vaccines. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t. Why state with certainty that it wasn’t? Yet again, Orac sounds like a propagandist for the drug industry.

But what about all the other things that can cause Ramsay Hunt syndrome? You know, stress, immune depletion, other concurrent infections, those things?

Why just straight to vaccines rather than think it might be related to an intense touring schedule, and a prior COVID infection? Aren’t those much more likely?

A case letter? You giant steaming idiot.

A speculation is not a fact. At best it is a starting point for constructing a hypothesis, which can then be tested. Using science. Whereas you go straight from wild speculation to foaming religious zealotry, then throw a tantrum when the world treats you as a joke.

Spoiler: you are.

Get back to us once you have some real evidence. (Note: NWO Bootlicker-style VAERS masturbations don’t count either.) Until then, piss off, bore.

This is a big part of the problem, here. These people uncritically read anything that seems to back up the baloney they dreamed up or read on some blog and think it reinforces the same. “Uncritically” because they are incapable of reading any of it critically. They don’t understand quality of evidence, stats, or the presumed basic sciences education that the authors left out because they were writing for, wait for it, people who are educated in the field.

I had some jackass the other day try to get me to admit I was wrong when presented with a preprint article that had an N of 7 and no real attempt at a valid statistical analysis or control for confounders (HCQ. AGAIN. It just. won’t. die.)

I can already hear the counter arguments from the regular trolls here. “Buh buh that’s because your education brainwashes you to believe this stuff” “Buh buh not all experts agree” etc etc

Repeating myself, but they don’t care:

To a narcissist the ‘truth’ is not seen as a finite, fixed entity, but as being malleable – as being whatever the narcissist says it is, at the time they say it. The truth is simply whatever serves the narcissist at that particular time.

Truth, like everyone and everything else, exists to serve them. These things that you care about—evidence, math, science—are useless to them and therefore worthless. Your attempts to reason with them invariably fail because these aren’t creatures of reason. They are instinct and bottomless hunger; obligate [ab]users of others.

You need a broader theory of mind, one that extends further than modelling human beings who are just like yourself. Because if empathy makes us human, then narcissists and psychopaths are something else. Man’s inhumanity to man becomes a lot more tractable once you realize that one of them is ahuman. Proceed accordingly.

The Has (bot–DFY91PYL) cyborg confuses the hell out of me. One minute he is a bad-ass talking of wanting to kick ‘antivaxxers’ ass, the next minute he is a therapist channeling Denice’s psycho-babble. Seems like Management is just plain confused where they want to take this cyborg.

There’s an awful lot of competition for Top Ten Craziest Antivaxers On The Planet. People who believe the Covid-19 vaccines magnetize people, that the Soviet Union exported STDs to Western countries to destabilize them, that viruses don’t exist…yes, there are many, many antivax loons, not even counting regular posters on RI.

That said, there’s a relatively unknown candidate for the Top Ten list who may be moving up in the rankings, now that Pharyngula has singled him out for farcical nuttiness in the realm of paleontology. That would be Florent Pirot, whose obsessions include veganism, Ukrainian “Nazis” menacing Russia, human genitalia, the idea that repression of bisexuality is the root cause of humanity’s problems, as well as paleolithic theories. He has a nifty take on vaccines in the Covid-19 era which includes the following:

“In November 2021 and later this will be a disaster with all the people getting new mutants or even old viruses whereas they were “vaccinated” and the public health sector will collapse, but it’s the fate of public healthcare when the radioactive base for immunity (reduction as much as possible of internal contamination with alpha emitting nanoparticles) is not acknowledged. Not to mention the fact the virus was a bioweapon manufactured with a tunnel uranium mine and laogai inmates next to the Wuhan P4. Nobody acknowledges (to also ensure silence on the topic of depleted uranium weapons that’s at the root…) so they suffer from their own lies, from the growing costs of the disorganisation stemming from that huge silence and from the costs stemming from the parallel haphazard faith-based industries offering magical “healing” to compensate, in particular “organic” foods and products.”

Seems straightforward enough.

https://florentpirot.blog

Florent has been busy in the past 2 years.

Although when your article published in 2021 remains the last article published in International Journal of Nanoparticle Research, you are not publishing in a highly active journal and so hardly anyone will see it. In the case of Pirot’s efforts, this is probably a good thing.

It has been costing him a bit of cash for his vanity publication collection. Although he has moved from Science and Education Publishing run out of an apartment in Newark, DE to eSciPub run out of an office rental complex in Houston TX.

“Nobody acknowledges (to also ensure silence on the topic of depleted uranium weapons that’s at the root…) ”

It’s not the depleted uranium weapons I worry about. It is the enriched stuff you need to care about!

Ouch! That said, after playing the forever Calvinball of RI’s sociopathic peanut gallery awhile, a good old-fashioned honest paranoid schizophrenic comes as a lovely breath of fresh air.

Pirot has an article posted Feb. 22 attacking Covid-19 vaccines as a tool of government seeking to control people through fear. Weirdly, he attributes the apparent success of vaccines to better living by vaccine adopters, who he says don’t drink and smoke much and are not obese.

“Vaccine rejecters are obviously the opposite, as many of them are likely to be unobedient to government rules in general and not listen to physicians as well, preferring self-administered diagnosis and not applying rules of good sense for their health, not doing sports, smoking, enjoying alcoholic beverages etc. (except for a minority like me who is libertarian but not for the meat eating and alcohol drinking).”

Del Bigtree would not be happy with that assessment. 🙂

You said: “Show us the peer-reviewed biomedical literature elucidating these mechanisms and evidence that COVID-19 vaccines activate them.”

I responded with not just one paper, as your reply suggests, but numerous case studies, papers and reports, all suggesting a connection between Covid 19 vaccines and reactivation of shingles, and there are even multiple case reports of Covid 19 vaccine being the suspected cause of Ramsay Hunt Syndrome.

And all you have to say is to whine about how “that paper” (as if I only provided a single one) failed to control for confounders? Which paper? Which confounders? (Or are you unable to specifically answer those questions?)

You suck at this.

You missd this one:
A total of 54 cases consisting of 27 male and 27 female patients have been reported. There were cases with known risk factors for herpes zoster, which included age more than 50 years (n = 36), immunological disorders (n = 10), chronic disease (n = 25), metabolic disorder (n = 13), malignancy (n = 4), and psychiatric disorder (n = 2).
Combine risk factors: 36 + 10 + 25 + 13 + 4 + 2 = 90. Many had multiple risk factors.

Crap! I haven’t been banned. Who can blame me for thinking I was with the amount of times I’ve banned around here! I must have made too many comments on the ‘Kirsch’ thread.

Quoting Fohse et al…

Surprisingly, the production of the monocyte-derived cytokines TNF-α, IL-1β and IL-1Ra tended to be lower after stimulation of PBMCs from vaccinated individuals with either the standard SARS-CoV-2 strain or heterologous Toll-like receptor ligands (Figures 1 and 2). TNF-α production (Figure 1B-1G) following stimulation with the TLR7/8 agonist R848 of peripheral blood mononuclear cells from volunteers was significantly decreased after the second vaccination (Figure 1C). The same trend was observed after stimulation with the TLR3 agonist poly I:C (Figure 1D), although the difference did not reach statistical significance. In contrast, the responses to the fungal pathogen Candida albicans were higher after the first dose of the vaccine (Figure 1G).

Aarno, you spoke of TLRs getting up and down-regulated with Pfizer’s brew. I believe TLR2 spots fungus (is there ‘funguses’?). Was TLR2 unregulated? What was the reasoning in up and down-regulating certain TLRs?

PS: Not sure if I should continue this topic with JT. He is getting all emotional and throwing hissy-fits about me not respecting all the research and clinical trials that he has done. Talk about petty!

“TLR7/8 agonist R848” Have they fixed that problem with only having one manufacturer’s R848 work correctly as an agonist? I remember it was a huge issue for a post-doc I worked with about a decade ago. Only the expensive stuff worked correctly.

Interestingly, you can’t mix TLR adjuvants with DNA-based immunizations – they don’t work.

Oh Greg. I never expected you to “respect” anything I’ve done. I said you were ignorant and should educate yourself. That has nothing to do with me, anything I have done, what I am doing, or what I might do in the future.

See that folks? Some around here are suggesting I might be a jerk, but notice how I graciously gave JT the opportunity to exit stage left, but he, nevertheless, came back to take swings at me. Notice also how his bitching also completely failed to address the points at hand.

JT, I’ll be honest with you; I actually found you to be one of the more tolerable Choir members here, yet, what the heck has gotten into you with this TLRs discussion?! All you seem to want to do is gripe.

JT, notwithstanding you also bitching at Foshe’s methodology, Pfizer’s brew suppression of TLRs is confirmed. Sorry– Aarno termed it ‘down-regulated’ Again, JT, or Aarno, which TLRs were down and up-regulated and why?!

Oh Greg. I never expected you to “respect” anything I’ve done

Honest question: how much of current scientific research involves just dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s, and where it doesnt take a nefarious turn such as erasing entire letters? Is it 50, 70 or 90%?!

Honest question: how much of current scientific research involves just dotting the i’s and crossing the t’s

You have no idea scientific research is; your asking “how much” is below the level of “May I mambo dogface to the banana patch?”

Honest question: how much of current Gerg behavior is desperately narcissistic attention seeking? Is it 100%, 100%, or 99.97% plus the occasional bowel movement?

@Greg You forget Fohse et al :
“The response of innate immune cells to TLR4 and TLR7/8 ligands was lower after BNT162b2 vaccination, while fungi-induced cytokine responses were stronger.”
Fungi induce TLR2, though it reacts Gram positive bacteria and DNA viruses, too.

And, how I hate the Left. They are the biggest hypocrites. If I even type the word ‘Gay’ around here, I will be accused of being a homophobe and threatened with banishment.

The Left leaning public health agencies, however, don’t see monkeypox as a crisis. Monkeypox is low risk to the public, and, predominantly, only affecting Gays! Hey– wasn’t that the same attitude with AIDS?

PS: JT and Aarno, I am still waiting.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/monkeypox-cases-uk-rise-more-153100346.html

If I even type the word ‘Gay’ around here, I will be accused of being a homophobe

Nobody is accused of being a homophobe for typing Gay. When you use it as a slur, perjorative, or outright insult of a a person or comdemnation of them, you identify yourself as one. Given your long history of being dishonest and a liar about essentially everything, it’s very easy to believe you are also a homophobe, bigot, and just an awful person in general.

The Left leaning [sic ] public health agencies, however [sic ], don’t see monkeypox as a crisis. Monkeypox is low risk to the public, and, predominantly, only [sic ] affecting Gays! Hey– wasn’t that [sic ] the same attitude with AIDS? [Not really, no.]

That’s some powerful gibberish, but I guess the pressure has to be, erm, resolved somehow when one can’t just let it out by “saying” ejaculating “Gays! Gays! Gaysgaysgays!! Teeheehee!”

I suppose monkeypox is considered less risk for public health, because the way it spreads and not because the patients are mostly gay. Besides I suppose it has a lot to do with how deadly the disease is and there are problably some other reasons.

and there are problably some other reasons

Having two extant vaccines ready to hand, I would imagine, is another reason not to be panicky.

Yes, the fact that there is a pox vaccine (or two pox vaccines), that also works for monkeypox would also be a reason not to be panicking to much.
With Covid-19 things are much different. Spreading is easier. Mutating as well, and when the pandemic broke out, there wasn’t a vaccine. Now there are vaccines, but still there is the problem with mutation.

Indeed, you need very close contact to spread monkeypox. Effectively it is intimate contacts of the infected that at are at risk. It is merely chance that the current outbreak has spread through a specific segment of the population.

Greg’s focus on this point is just more evidence of his bigotry.

And, I will now address the audience….

Ladies and gentlemen, who are these ‘intellectual giants’ who are known as research scientists. How we are regaled with tales of their insatiable appetite for truth. Willing to unturn every rock in search of wisdom for the betterment of mankind.

Who are they? Ladies and gentlemen, I give you exhibit a; here we have one such ‘intellectual giant’, Aarno, who made a claim about Pfizer’s brew up and down-regulating TLRs. For several days now he was asked him to expand, but it was all to no avail.

What?! Where is the intellectual honesty here?! How is this in keeping with the quest for wisdom that will help humanity?

Who are these ‘intellectual giants’? Perhaps you will now accept the argument that I have made all along that they are nothing more than posers.

With this said, I will temporarily leave this stage to attend to what’s real. Many here may remember the brave Ottawa Truckers and their supporters who several months ago occupied our capital and declared to that vermin, Castro-jr, that we would have no part of the invasion of our bodily autonomy and we would not be forced to participate in phama’s mRNA experiment. We spoke loud and clear, and, in fact, our voices echoed around the world and precipitated the defeat of social distancing, masking, lockdowns and mandates.

So, this coming Canada Day, we freedom fighters will once again descend on Ottawa to commemorate the victory and pay respect to the true warriors, the Truckers. Yes, it was a difficult fight and though the enemy is now licking its wound from defeat, we are well aware that we must continue to man the barricades should the enemy seek a second round.

Such is the fight for freedom. Posing is not an option.

“So, this coming Canada Day, we freedom fighters will once again descend on Ottawa to commemorate the victory and pay respect to the true warriors, the Truckers.”

Well that should be amusing… again. Truckers spending all that fuel for just another nothing burger. Good luck with that.

Have you not read may answers ? Fohse et al said TLR2 is upregulated. TLR2 and TLR9 start defense against DNA viruses, so defense against monkeypox (a DNA virus) or varizella zoster virus (another DNA virus) is not affected.
VZV is a herpesvirus. There is a paper about TLRs activating defense against herpes simplex virus:
Sørensen LN, Reinert LS, Malmgaard L, Bartholdy C, Thomsen AR, Paludan SR. TLR2 and TLR9 synergistically control herpes simplex virus infection in the brain. J Immunol. 2008 Dec 15;181(12):8604-12. doi: 10.4049/jimmunol.181.12.8604. PMID: 19050280.
TLR9 recognizes viral DNA and TLR2 virus particles.

Hey Aarno, I just realized that someone who I am not naming doesn’t understand that markers and proteins and receptors and whatnot can be upregulated and downregulated repeatedly, and that if something (TLR4) is downregulated that doesn’t mean it’s gone forever.

It’s almost like immunology isn’t something you can just pick up from anti-vax websites, but really takes intentional study.

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