I will admit that the headline for this post is a question that I never thought I would ever ask for any reason at all at any time ever. Since the pandemic hit, Carlson has, of course, become one of the foremost purveyors of COVID-19 misinformation and antivaccine talking points in the US while promoting ivermectin and other COVID-19 “miracle cures” long after science had shown them to be quackery. He is also almost certainly the foremost propagandist for white supremacist and fascism in the US, at least in terms of his popularity, reach, and nightly opportunity to promote such ideas to a wide and devoted audience. Given the veritable panoply of conspiracy theories, quackery, COVID-19 disinformation, and antivaccine pseudoscience that Carlson has spewed over the last couple of years, I suppose I shouldn’t have been surprised about anything I’ve seen from him.
I must admit, though, that when I started seeing these sorts of Tweets over the weekend, even I was a bit taken aback:
That second image is a form of woo that even I didn’t recall ever having seen before, but it didn’t take me long to find out what it was supposed to be:
All I could think was that, if even Kid Rock—Kid Rock!—laughs at you and responds, “Dude, stop testicle tanning,” reducing you to responding with a reply as weak as, “Open your mind,” you’ve really wandered even further away from rationality than usual. Who thought that Carlson could go so far into the realm of quackery that even Kid Rock says, “WTF?” (I will—grudgingly—give Kid Rock credit for a somewhat amusing joke about naming a band “Testicle Tanning.”) While it’s good to have an open mind, it’s not good to have a mind so open that your brains fall out. On the other hand, I have little doubt that Carlson knows exactly what he’s doing.
Don’t believe me? Look at what Carlson says after that:
Don’t you think at this point, when so many of the therapies they’ve told us to take have turned out to be dead ends that have really hurt people, why wouldn’t open-minded people seek new solutions?
How many quacks that I’ve written about have said something similar, appealing to being “open-minded”? It’s even worse than that, though. in the clip above, Andrew McGovern, the “fitness professional,” interviewed by Carlson, claims that there are “so much data out there” supporting the wonder benefits of shining a red light on your junk, even though there most definitely isn’t:
This leads Carlson, propagandist that he is, to concede that this sounds ridiculous, saying “Half the viewers out there are going, ‘What? Testicle tanning. That’s crazy!'”
Not that the crazy stops him or even slows him down. Indeed, Carlson immediately pivots to a false equivalence:
But my view is, OK, testosterone levels crash and no one says anything about it. That’s crazy. So, why is it crazy to seek solutions?
This is a basic one-two appeal of quacks: First, there’s no good treatment or science doesn’t (yet) understand what’s going on. This leads to the false conclusion that we should try anything, no matter how ridiculous, and you should “open minded” about it. For his part, McGovern goes on to say that he’s been recently exposed to a term, “bromeopathy.” This is the most unintentionally hilarious thing I’ve seen a quack say in a long time. Combine “bro” with homeopathy (a.k.a. The One Quackery To Rule Them All)? Yes! That’s basically what this is almost, except that the red light will actually warm your testicles if you leave them in the red glow long enough. Of course, as some have pointed out, if you are worried about low sperm count, it’s really, really counterproductive to warm your testicles, given that the ideal temperature for sperm production is a few degrees F lower than body temperature.
After seeing Carlson’s trailer, I couldn’t help but remember a post from a more innocent time not long before the pandemic hit, when a certain viral image was going around the Intertubez:
And, complete with the sort of manly imagery that Tucker Carlson seems to love:
The difference, as you might or might not remember, was that back then the idea was to sun your perineum and your anus. (I kid you not.) Going against Tucker’s appeal to “bromeopathy” was this one image that was also going around:
The concept of sunning your butthole, perineum, or nether regions was a concept so ridiculous that at the time I openly wondered whether it was some sort of deliberate and elaborate trolling by social media wellness influencers. Apparently I was wrong.
I also wondered:
So. Many. Questions. For one thing, these are men doing the perineum sunning, which brings up the indelicate question of what they do with their…well, their junk…while their “buttholes” are supposedly soaking up the sun. That’s some delicate skin there! Of course, the perineum is also covered in delicate skin, and the skin around the anus is also quite delicate. That might be why you don’t want to sun it for very long; it’s likely to burn more easily.
Maybe testicular tanning was the answer, with gentle red light with a wavelength too long to do any damage to the very sensitive skin of the perineum and scrotum. No wonder Tucker Carlson fell for it.
While it’s easy to laugh at the ridiculousness of the idea of testicular tanning, warming your junk, or whatever you want to call it, the documentary, The End of Men, looks to be far less amusing given the silly quackery in it. To start to see what I mean, take a look (if you dare) at the full trailer:
I was initially a bit confused, wondering whether this was for just one episode, or if Carlson’s whole series was going to be about the supposed “end of men,” with individual episodes covering different things. It all became clearer when I found Carlson’s website, where, in addition to the trailer for The End of Men, there were trailers for episodes covering topics like—I kid you not!—UFOs and cattle mutilations and transgender “detransitioners,” this latter topic a favorite harped on by “gender critical” transphobes to argue that trans adolescents should not undergo gender affirming care even though it is the current standard of care. There’s even a conspiracy theory involving this that very much remembers antivaccine conspiracy theories. I’ve been meaning to write about it, but need to be in a mood when I’m ready to handle the utter shitstorm that it will almost certainly provoke. (Let’s just say that I’ve gone through this before…elsewhere…last year.)
Other episodes of Tucker Carlson’s
documentary propaganda, even as an older cis/het white guy, I can’t help but notice all the sweaty shirtless (and even naked) male bodies. Predictably, this led to lots of joking on the Internet social media about the incredibly unsubtle homoerotic subtext behind the last 50 seconds or so of the trailer:
Easy jokes about the gayness of all the imagery in the last third Carlson’s trailer aside (and, let’s face it, some of the jokes were hilarious), there is nonetheless something deadly serious going on with this trailer. If you know anything about fascism you can’t help but see it Carlson’s obsessive focus on utterly manly manliness, including testosterone levels and sperm counts, along with the concern that today’s men aren’t as manly as they used to be and that this decline in the manliest (American) masculine manliness is leading to the feminization and therefore degeneration of our country, as illustrated by the voiceover for the trailer:
Once a society collapses then, you’re in hard times. Well, hard iron sharpens iron as they say, and those hard times inevitably produce men who are tough, men who are resourceful, men who are strong enough to survive. They go on to reestablish order, and so the cycle begins again.
So apparently the manliest masculine manly men will be the ones we need to save us from the coming apocalypse and collapse of society! Seriously, though, the entire idea behind the trailer is that “hard times make strong men,” who then “bring order” (apparently fascist order) to reverse the hard times, order that then apparently provides all the girly men the safety they need not to die because they are protected by the order brought by the manly men made hard by the previous hard times. (I know I’m being repetitive. Just go with it for a moment.) It is very much fascist imagery, as PZ Myers mentioned. He even included this meme:
What, though, makes this montage and concept so disturbing? Here’s a hint. I saw this particular Tweet before I had even become aware of The End of Men, and the Tweet confused me until I stumbled upon all the jokes about Tucker Carlson’s trailer:
I also must admit that some of the responses were quite amusing—and disturbing:
And it’s not as though this Trump-soaked era doesn’t have its own manly masculine male iconography, although it never ceases to amaze me how anyone could produce “art” like this, which is so bad that it almost makes me miss Leni Riefenstahl:
Does Prof. Stanley’s name ring a bell? Here’s a hint: He’s a Yale historian famous for studying authoritarian and fascist movements. Still don’t remember? OK, he wrote a book that I read over the Christmas holiday weekend, How Fascism Works: The Politics of Us and Them. In fact, I used Prof. Stanley’s book as a structure for my discussion a few months ago about why the antivaccine movement has such an affinity for fascism by listing several of the elements of fascist ideologies described in the book and relating how antivaccine views share similar ideologies.
There was one aspect of fascist ideology that I didn’t really discuss much in that post, specifically how fascism is obsessed with hyper-masculinity and a strong male leader, specifically patriarchal masculinity and how the proper order of society is that it is run by men, with women’s proper role being to raise children and maintain the home.
Patriarchal masculinity sets up men with the expectation that society will allow them the role of sole protectors and providers of their families. In times of extreme economic anxiety, men, already made anxious by a perceived loss of status resulting from increasing gender equality, can easily be thrust into panic by demagoguery directed against sexual minorities.
In fascist attacks on universities, the universities play the role of the Nazi “Jewish conspiracy” behind the women’s movement. Universities subvert masculinity and undermine the traditional family by supporting gender studies.
Going hand-in-hand with the obsession with only the strongest, manliest, most masculine of masculinity, fascism also fears and attacks “feminization,” as represented by feminism and women’s rights.
Let Prof. Stanley summarize:
National Socialism targeted women’s movements and feminism generally; for the Nazis, feminism was a Jewish conspiracy to destroy fertility among Aryan women. Charu Gupta aptly summarizes the Nazi attitude toward feminist movements:[Nazis] believed that the women’s movement was part of an international Jewish conspiracy to subvert the German family and thus destroy the German race. The movement, it claimed, was encouraging women to assert their economic independence and to neglect their proper task of producing children. It was spreading the feminine doctrines of pacifism, democracy and “materialism.” By encouraging contraception and abortion and so lowering the birth rate, it was attacking the very existence of the German people.4In fascist attacks on universities, the universities play the role of the Nazi “Jewish conspiracy” behind the women’s movement. Universities subvert masculinity and undermine the traditional family by supporting gender studies.
Fascism also hates anything it perceives as the feminization of men, including homosexuality and, especially, transgender people. That makes it no surprise that Tucker Carlson is using his documentary series to promote transphobia.
Again, as Prof. Stanley notes:
Since fascist politics has, at its basis, the traditional patriarchal family, it is characteristically accompanied by panic about deviations from it. Transgender individuals and homosexuals are used to heighten anxiety and panic about the threat to traditional male gender roles.
In that vein, Robin Pennacchia at Wonkette observed this about Carlson’s trailer for his documentary series:
I feel like Tucker’s intention here is that men look at this and think “This could be us, but for the feminists!” and women are supposed to think “Oh no! What have we wrought! We could have had men like this, licking milk up off the ground and flipping giant tires around in the desert, but no! We had to have human rights!”
And I don’t think that’s happening. At least not for me. I mean, frankly, it’s not even hot in a problematic way, like Humphrey Bogart’s speech about how no one cares that he can ride or fight anymore. Men have been bitching about how no one will let them be manly anymore not just since 1939, but since Ancient Greece (at least). You think they’d be better at it by now, come up with something more appealing, some case more convincing, but no. Nope. Just dick power charging/tanning stations and raw eggs. You would think that people so desperate to bring toxic masculinity back would make a better case for it than “Hey, here’s a guy in an outside bathtub. You like that? Hmm?”
Unsurprisingly, Prof. Stanley was far the only person to notice the obviously fascist messaging and imagery in the trailer:
They’re not wrong, either. Fascism tends to worship the masculine while viewing homosexuals and transgender people as dire threats to what they view as the normal patriarchal order of things that has supposedly been “nature’s will” since time immemorial.
Did anyone notice one more thing about the full-length trailer? At around the 50 sec. mark, there’s a voice that will likely be instantly familiar to regular readers here. It is a creepy voice that I recognized immediately when I first heard the voiceover lamenting a decline in testosterone and sperm counts over the last 40 years, all as images of a baby, an egg being fertilized, a manly man doing pushups, and an apparently not-so-manly obese man with gynecomastia, before it’s revealed that the voiceover is coming from antivaxxer Robert F. Kennedy, Jr., who predicts a coming “calamity” because of this lack of testosterone and manliness. (I’ll concede that he didn’t use the word “manliness,” but he did predict an impending “calamity” due to low testosterone levels and sperm counts in men, characterizing this impending “calamity” as a “medical fact.”) Let’s just put it this way. The part of the trailer with all the muscular manly masculine men lovingly filmed doing manly masculine things is just the last third or so of the trailer. The first two thirds sets up the idea that the masculine manliness portrayed in the last part of the trailer is in dire danger. Those of us familiar with RFK Jr. and other crank and antivax claims can immediately guess what is supposedly endangering all this manliness and turning this generation of men into girly men.
Given that before RFK Jr. showed up the trailer featured images of pesticides, an obese man in a bathing suit, dead fish, and pollution, you can guess what RFK Jr.’s message in the episode will be. His shtick has long been the false claim that this generation of children is the “sickest generation,” all because of pollution, pesticides, GMOs, and, of course, above all, vaccines. While it is true that vaccines are not mentioned in the trailer, just the appearance of RFK Jr. tells me that they will almost certainly play a significant part in the story. Indeed, as I’ve mentioned before, antivaxxers have long falsely claimed that vaccines destroy fertility. Usually, it’s female fertility that antivaxxers fear monger about, but they also falsely claim that vaccines reduce sperm counts and harm the male reproductive system. Does anyone remember the story from singer and rapper Nicki Minaj that a COVID-19 vaccine caused testicular swelling and impotence in a cousin’s friend in Trinidad? She even claimed that the man had to call off his wedding. There was, of course, no evidence, but her claim was of the same variety as claims that vaccines reduce sperm count. There’s even a conspiracy theory that COVID-19 vaccines can make people gay or trans. It’s not a new antivax claim, either, as I recall having seen it years ago.
I’ve written a number of times about the commonalities between fascism and the antivaccine movement that have led to such an affinity between the two, with an increasingly strong alliance between antivaxxers and outright fascists like Proud Boys and fascist enablers and propagandists like Tucker Carlson: Mythic (lost) past, anti-intellectualism, unreality and conspiracy theories, victimhood, and, of course, “purity,” be it racial purity in the case of fascists or bodily “purity,” which has even led antivaxxers to portray themselves as “purebloods.” To this, Tucker Carlson has added toxic masculinity and fascist imagery of manly masculine men doing manly masculine things but whose manly masculinity is supposedly “threatened” by all the same sorts of things that antivaxxers fear, things that are supposedly “feminizing” them by lowering their testosterone levels and destroying their manly function of fathering children.
It should be no surprise that Carlson has fallen hard for serious woo (or at least decided that grifting based on such woo is a great path forward), either. After all, fascists are often into woo. The Nazis, for instance, had Heinrich Himmler’s belief in the occult and were huge proponents of naturopathy and other alternative medicine, including homeopathy. Today, people like Mike Adams and Alex Jones sell unproven supplements along with their quackery and antivaccine views. I might have to watch this particular episode of Carlson’s little fascist project, just to see how deep it goes. (I mean, UFOs?)
As Phillip Bump put it at The Washington Post:
It picks up on a line of argument that Carlson has been promoting for years now: that men — specifically American men — are weaker physically than they used to be and that this translates into weaker political leadership. The video is a weird combination of homophobia and homoerotica, but we can leave that to others to analyze. Either way, it’s a compelling bit of marketing. The testicle-tanning is the lure; the trap closes when you agree to follow the line from that to Carlson’s broader argument about a decline in masculinity and the rise of the left.
Because this is Tucker Carlson, it’s useful to remember that whatever the subject, the ultimate destination is the same: White Americans, particularly older men, are embattled in an increasingly hostile culture and he is giving them the tools to fight back. This episode isn’t called “Examining an Apparent Drop in Testosterone Levels,” after all. It’s apocalyptic, as is nearly everything Carlson produces. Everything is part of the same us-or-them, now-or-never fight between real, masculine Americans and the effete elites.
Sure, it’s easy to laugh at the “testicular tanning” and the “bromeopathic” treatments. They are the sort of things that fifteen years ago I would have played strictly for laughs in a light-hearted manner, as in an installment of Your Friday Dose of Woo. Like homeopathy and jade eggs, testicular tanning is the sort of quackery and woo that certain Very Serious Doctors and scolds of the skeptics movement keep contemptuously telling us are so obviously nonsense that we shouldn’t be wasting our brainpower with such trivialities. They’re wrong. Such ideas are, as ridiculous as they seem to you and me, powerful and often support far darker ideologies. They always have, and it’s never been nearly as easy as people think it should be to counter this sort of quackery.
Seriously, at this point, Carlson and his fellow fascists aren’t even trying to hide their fascist tendencies any more. The antivaccine movement, which had lured the right to its views through resistance to vaccine mandates, has now found itself subsumed by the much larger right wing ideology and belief system.
383 replies on “What do Tucker Carlson, testicular tanning, and fascism have in common?”
I don’t want to downplay the very real concern about the fascist subtext, but the band should be Tucker Testicles Tanning, or TTT.
It’s funny that everyone else is fascist but executive mandates put out by the Biden administration and CDC supported by y’all keep getting struck down by courts as undemocratic power grabs. ?
Oh goody, the BS claim that COVID public health mandates are fascism. Where have I heard that before??
And in essence from Federal judges.
Oh dear, I see John is projecting like IMAX again. Must be a Tuesday.
“No, you’re the real fascists!”
Sit down, child. Nobody wants to see your tiny peen.
Oh is this the mask mandate decision from the Trump appointed judge with almost zero court experience that the American Bar Association described as “not qualified” for the position?
This recent article about Tucker Carlson and Testicles reminds me of a Jeff Holiday Segment from a few years ago when he was going after two snake oil quacks. At that point Jeff Holiday had no idea some of these quacks are influential politically
Allow this outsider to pinpoint an absolute blind spot of yours:
“He is also without a doubt the foremost propagandist for white supremacist and fascism in the US, at least in terms of his popularity, reach, and nightly opportunity to promote such ideas.”
“… without a doubt…”
Yet, in your verbose article, you fail to assuage such doubt. Could you provide one shred, or even a speck, of evidence to support such an outlandish and appealing claim? You’ve surely been told the same thing you’ve written by many sources, but did you ever consider asking them for evidence before propagating such a notion?
“If you push something hard enough, it will fall over.” Fudd’s First Law
“If it goes in, it must come out.” Teslicle’s Deviant to Fudd’s Law.
“All I had to do was put the balls on the same side!”
I’m sure Tucker Carlson likes to spray Lynx on his balls. Enuf said.
(Okay, so our colonial cousins call it Axe instead, but I’m going to allow it anyway as it’s easily the best pun I have come up with this week.)
Also, here’s just a taste of evidence going back 20 years or so of Tucker Carlson’s support for white supremacist and fascist ideas. (I did link to it in the post but apparently it was too hard to click on the link.)
https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/08/tucker-carlson-has-seen-the-future-and-it-is-fascist.html (I linked to this one too in the text)
I could do this all day.
Seriously, this is not even a close call.
@Lynx: “this outsider”
LOL. Fuck off.
Media matters ? vanity fair ? ? and Vox!!! ??? those are the sources? Man I used to take this blog seriously. I see now it’s just a left wing fascist (as in undemocratic submission to government force in service of the elite) circle j*rk.
One notes that Johnny can’t actually refute any of the content of any of the sources. No doubt any source other that quack sources and Fox News would be similarly dismissed, no matter how many examples of Tucker Carlson’s parroting white nationalist and outright fascist propaganda they used to back up their arguments.
Name an example of him parroting “ parroting white nationalist and outright fascist propaganda”. Or better yet, define that phrase.
Funny, but the links I provided do just that, as does the Tweeted video. But do keep embarrassing yourself defending Carlson. It amuses me.?
Funny, but the links I provided do just that, as does the Tweeted video. But do keep embarrassing yourself defending Carlson. It amuses me. ?
The thing is they don’t. The string together out of context quotes that are supposed to make the reader/watcher feel bad, but they never actually produce any evidence that Tucker is a white supremacist. That is at least to the extent that still means what it used to – a person who believes the white race supreme – to left wing fascists it have come to mean any opinion they don’t like.
OK, I’ll bite. You say the quotes are “out of context.” Provide the “context” in which they aren’t white nationalist. We’ll wait. (This will be entertaining, I expect.)
It’s not any surprise that we see, when he’s poked, labarge is a supporter of bigots. The right wing is populated now by folks like him: conspiracy mongers, bigots, racists, uneducated, and dishonest.
blockquote>In December 2020, Carlson parroted white supremacist and antisemitic conspiracy theories by blaming Jewish philanthropist George Soros for Americans being “robbed, raped and killed.”
In July,, 2020,Carlson questioned the patriotism of Rep. Ilhan Omar and Sen. Tammy Duckworth of Illinois. He said, in reference to the congresswomen’s immigrant backgrounds,
In 2018 he said
He’s repeatedly pushed “white replacement theory”, a favorite bit of bullshit pushed by white supremacist groups. In fact, in 2021, after he ranted on about it in 2019 VDARE, a white supremacist/domestic terrorist group, said
I’m sure you’ll be back with lies about why comments like these don’t rise to the white supremacist level — I won’t be surprised if you say you agree with them. But guess what: nobody will buy your bullshit on this anyway. You’ve shown in your comments about vaccines, covid, and studies that you have no problem telling lies about reality because you don’t like it, so it won’t be any different when you do it here.
(Apologies if I’ve screwed up any tags: labarge’s willfull ignorance and attempted defense of racists really pissed me off.)
Oh hey John you scrofulous fuck. I’m waiting. Show us what you’re made of, big man.
Because I say it’s piss and your balls in a jar. Prove me wrong.
“left wing facism”…
john, your ignorance knows no bounds. (although that comment could simply be due to your dishonesty, which is also unbounded.)
Yeah, any time I see someone say “left wing fascism” or “fascism is really left wing,” I know that person is breathtakingly ignorant of history and politics.
These Tucker Carlson apologists are all the same…”out of context, he was joking, you can’t take him seriously, etc, etc.”
But it’s every freaking time.
I’ve heard the “replacement theory” right from his mouth. That’s not a joke, that’s not out of context.
(not to mention the multiple upon multiple times he’s defended Putin)
Yep. Carlson has repeatedly featured various versions of the “great replacement theory” (the white nationalist concept that hordes of darker skinned people are replacing whites through a combination of illegal immigration and much higher birthrates than whites). He’s also long claimed that white men are the most discriminated-against group. None of this is subtle. None of this has a “context” in which it is not white nationalist/fascist rhetoric.
As for the “Tucker was only joking” or “Tucker wasn’t serious,” whether Carlson’s apologists realize it or not, such a defense implicitly concedes that racism, white nationalism, and fascism are morally wrong and therefore undesirable, which I like to point out.
“Left-wing fascism” would be Maoist guerillas dragging John from his bed to shoot him in the paddy fields in the dead of the night. A vision, I’ll admit, to which I struggle to feel much disgust.
But who am I kidding, we all know John would be signed up as third cheerleader to the Kmart Rouge in double-quick time. Fascism is Fascism: the outcome is the thing. It has no ideology of its own except I will crush You. Absolute Power by all means available. Whatever sociopolitical movement each instance springs from is no more than timely opportunism: because it exists and is easy to manipulate.
Oh, and still waiting.
Actually, it’s not true that Maoism was fascist. There is without a doubt left wing authoritarianism, just as there is right wing authoritarianism. Although there are some commonalities between the two, that does not mean that they are the same. Fascism does have characteristics that distinguish it from left wing authoritarianism, as described in Jason Stanley’s How Fascism Works: The Politics of Us and Them and classic 1995 essay “Ur-Fascism.”
“Although there are some commonalities between [left wing authoritarianism and right wing authoritarianism], that does not mean that they are the same.”
Bingo! Nicely stated. As a gesture of courtesy, I’ll note that the proper epithet John seems to be straining toward would be “Stalinist.” I do realize, though that being accurate about something might not be right for his idiom.
@Orac: “Actually, it’s not true that Maoism was fascist.”
@sadmar: “Bingo! Nicely stated.”
Gentlemen: you know that I love you to bits. Fearsomely smart; frighteningly educated; laser precise to a fault. Assets that should leave me in the dust.
And you are bloody fools.
Denice sees the game, I think. F68, any psychoses nowwithstanding, too. I know I see it, because I’m an evil fuck. So let me lighten the load: here are the first two reasons why I am right and you are wrong; that Mao was a Fascist, not a “left-wing authoritarian”:
“Left-wing authoritarian” fails so utterly to capture the full horror of his Red Guard rampage, it’s an embarrassment.
It does not trip off the tongue.
There is a third reason also—by far the most critical—but I’m going to step back and see if you can think what it is first. Because it should be blinding obvious, but seemingly it is not.
And if y’all want to take it to email at this point (which may be more apropos), I’m sure our gracious host has access to those.
No, you’re the deluded one if you really think that there isn’t a significant difference between left wing/Communist authoritarianism and fascism, which is a subtype of right wing authoritarianism/totalitarianism. I’d lecture you on the differences, but I suspect that I’d be wasting my time. Maybe sadmar would like to school you. He seems to have the patience for it more than I do.
I’m not so big on exegesis of communism and fascism. As I basically do not care for both, honestly.
But to me, the idea of “Hey ! We’re open people ! Voice your grievances !”, then take all the people who voiced these grievances and persecute them if not kill them, that’s a big thing I remember from Maoism. I call that fascistic, if not in the exact sense, then at least in the casual sense of the word.
Moses and his bro Aron did the same too, in some sense. The dude climbs up the mountain while his bro lures the others into a golden calf business. Which got the idolaters out in the open. When the other guy comes down, mass murder. I also call that… well, you see what I mean.
OK. Times were not the same.
But basic point: I do not see intrinsic big differences in authoritarianism, left or right. It’s hatred of freedom of thought and speech at its core. Nazism went utterly berserk and is very much in another league of its own. It sure is a continuism of fascism, but hey, as the Poles did prove it: it’s not because you’re a rabid antisemite that you have a moral obligation to be a nazi…
But when I now see the ongoing war in Ukraine and how nostaligia of communism fuses with ethno-nationalism, I’m not that comfortable making a fundamental distinction between dictatorship of the proletariat and nationalism gone berserk. Seems like there is overlap if not in theory then in practice. An I also have trouble not seeing the continuities in terms of mindsets between tsarist russia and USSR. Same fundamentals when it comes to military geopolitics and dealing with the question of ethnicities, nationalities and minorities. Buffer states.
The question of China is IMO different. It has a very different cultural past from the west anyway. And there are geopolitical fundamentals that stop it from going the way of liberal democracy. On the coast of China, GDP is, say, Spain. In the remote areas of China, GDP is, say, Sudan. China needs the remote areas as buffer as that’s where it’s historically invaded from. So even if China dropped official marxist ideology, it would still have to undertake massive wealth transfers to keep the country together. Communism has that feature baked in. So it’s convenient and handy. One of the reasons I believe China is kinda stuck in communism anyway.
But far right and far left voters tend to swing from one extreme to the other. Except these far left people who are quite steeped in their ideology. But far left voters are not so much so. Which is why I have trouble fundamentally distinguishing the electoral sociology. At least in Europe.
To me, far left and far right both have an intrinsic problem with free speech and free thought. Which is why I both consider them dangers. Kind of siamese twins but with very different ideologues on both sides. In France, we have the peculiarity of having dudes like Régis de Castelnau. I think he’s the kind of person that comes from a noble family and whose superego basically tells him to endorse far left ideology as a substitute for catholicism: a means to connect directly with the people via ideology, circumventing anything to do with bourgeois, money, nouveau riche, democrats, etc… nostalgia of Ancien Régime by other means…
Far right and far left ? I’d say antagonist ideologies, but catered to similar audiences. Racial identities however drive a wedge in that audience. In the US, that wedge is all too obvious. Nowadays in France, that wedge also has now become all too obvious though a bit more fluid than in the US IMO. A 100 years ago, aside from the topic of jews, in relatively homogeneous european populations, I’d say the divide was more of an urban / countryside divide between far left and far right. But move them in and out of cities, and the same people would in time toggle from far right to far left and back because of hatred of parliamentarian systems. Our far right and far left indeed do have a history of ideological transfuges. Like Doriot.
So ideologies are different. People ? Perhaps not so much. We’re seeing it in this election here: the question hangs in the following question: will voters of Mélenchon (far left) cast their ballots for the far right (Le Pen) ? Or not ? Ideologues will not. Average people ? That’s another question.
I do see that far left / far right overlap in Europe. In the US, I do not see it. At all.
Personally, his tireless apologizing for Trump followed closely by “Let’s hear Putin out” was more than enough for me and I’m probably more right-leaning than most other commenters here. That should tell you that you are in the batshit crazy far right.
So like just because I don’t think Tucker is a white supremacist does not mean I agree with him all of the time or even watch him very often (once in a while I’ll admit when there is a hubbub but generally not). I don’t think that one has to be white to share the values of Americans race and values are two different things. Indeed Americans share many values with cities of other nations that are of varied races soI don’t think there is any blanket rule there. I do appreciate the sentiment that importing folks of any race that have vastly (and I mean vastly different, not just different) values than ours has some drawbacks. But indeed I’m way more pro ignorant than your pal Tucker (or Trump) even if I don’t buy that either is a white supremacist, a slur along the lines of all Democrats are baby eating pedophiles a la QAnon. Just complete silliness.
You probably don’t see it that way, but form an intellectual/skeptical standpoint, that is actually an interesting question,: Is Tucker Carlson is actually a white nationalist himself?
There is zero doubt that Carlson has been repeating and promoting white nationalist/fascist ideas and talking points for many years now, but that leaves an open question: Is he actually a white nationalist himself, or is he just pushing white nationalist propaganda because he knows that’s what his audience likes? In other words, is he a true believer or a grifter? Again, there is zero doubt that Tucker Carlson has a very long history of repeating white nationalist conspiracy theories, like the “great replacement.” The question is whether he actually believes them himself. I suspect it’s both; he believes them to some extent, but he’s also pandering to his audience. That being said, given the popularity of his show, to me it doesn’t much matter if he’s a grifter or a true believer in white nationalism. The end result is the same. He’s promoting white nationalism, and people are buying it.
*citizens of other nations.
*and pro immigrant not pro ignorant (autocorrect is a menace indeed).
Wow. Just fucking wow.
So, again, I’m asking for evidence.
You provided a whole bunch of links to opinion pieces, none of which hold water.
Thus, once again, I’m looking for evidence of opinions from Tucker which are demonstrably “white supremacist” or “white nationalist.”
I don’t mean “he says things you don’t like, so you refer to him as [bad guys from WWII],” but simply —- things he has said which inarguably fit the simple definition of “white supremacist” or even “white nationalist” (which is lower bar to hop over).
Again, none of the articles, videos, etc. you linked come close to providing a shred of evidence. Each of them filters what he says their own “this is a dog whistle, and what he really means is…” nonsense.
Are you of the persuasion that he writes his own material?
Stephen Colbert covered this tonight in his monologue. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yXxAentzl7k
Listening to Fox News is a co-morbidity for severe Covid.
Aren’t you worried John Horgan will criticize this post as going after low-hanging fruit?
I’m kind of amazed you didn’t recap Ripper’s precious bodily fluids speech, but I appreciated that for all the jokes from the responses you cited, you discussed how this fits in with fascism seriously. Carlson, like Trump, hides behind a pretense of being cavalier and jokey. In this case, instead of presenting the woo as “red light therapy” which sounds like it might be a thing, he protects himself by calling it ‘testicle tanning’. Ha ha. But he still wants his viewers to take it seriously, because the decline of real men is just so deep and profound and ignored (encouraged maybe?) by the deep state, that yes we have to think outside the boxers… err box (sorry).
In Strangelove after Mandrake solves Ripper’s “preserve our essence” recall code, he is almost prevented from calling it in to DC by the commando Colonel Bat Guano, who suspects he’s a “deviated prevert” and threatens to blow his head off if he tries any “preversions” while he’s in the phone booth.
And indeed, the demonization of sexual difference is part of the same apocalyptic struggle Phil Bump describes, the running buddy complement of hypermasculinity. Earlier tonight, Rachel Maddow discussed the “eliminationist rhetoric” of the new right, the portrayal of their enemies as so dire an existential threat they cannot be bargained with, but only erased. And the hypermasculine figure she cited as a paradigm was Vladimir Putin, noting that from the moment he emerged from the FSB, his go-to move to attack his enemies within Russia was to accuse them of pedophilia — a tactic now reflected not just in the Q-Anon fringe, but in far more mainstream GOP pols attacking all ‘woke liberals’ as “groomers” or otherwise pedo-friendly.
This is how you prep purges, show trials, pogroms, gulags, camps…. I’m not saying these are next, but there are ‘conservative activists’ calling for public hangings of whoever participated in stealing the 2020 election from Trump. And the party leadership is just ignoring them, while candidates in primaries like the Senate race in OH continue to turn up the hyper-macho heat leaping under each other to reach new lows on the race to the bottom and beyond.
[Note to any curious readers: For the definitive account of fascist aesthetics in Riefenstahl, see the classic Susan Sontag essay “Fascinating Fascism”.]
(I’d hope the alliance with Tucker would end people citing RFKJ as an example of ‘antivax on the left’, but I know it won’t. Fwiw, Juli Mazi, the NoCal ND busted for issuing fake vaccine cards and fake ‘homeopathic vaccines’, and who has now pled guilty to the charges, has a history of liberal and anti-Trump comments on social media.)
You’re right. I should have.
As for Gen. Ripper, I decided to give that shtick a rest for a while, as I seem to have been using it a bit too much even for me…
I did like your mention of Horgan so much that I added a brief paragraph near the end citing their contempt for those of us who’ve debunked the more obvious quackery for a long time.
I see precisely what you did there. You magnificient bastard, you.
Honestly, Tucker Carlson for BIG BROWN BALLS 2022 should be the hot antifa bumper sticker for the next 7 months. I bet the domain name’s not taken yet either.
They want to use your own decency against you? Use their own shrieking neuroses against them. Make sure to emphasize texture, size, and of course color. And express your sincere sympathy.
Because the key takeaway of that lengthy Atlantic article I posted is this: these ass-clowns have not permitted themselves to face a real challenge for decades. They have intentionally isolated themselves from all criticism and alternate perspectives in order to build up their Purity and monomaniacal hate of Other. That makes them highly focused and motivated, but also flabby and unpracticed; over-confident ignorant amateurs entirely unprepared to face the real thing.
Hence their constant use of low dirty dick blows: because that’s the only move they still know. And furthermore they must use attack because they possess no defense. They maintain their superiority only by successfully faking you out: keeping you forever off-balance, defending yourself, so that you never even think to attack. They are embarrassingly vulnerable on so many fronts it isn’t funny, but so used to puffing themselves up to look bigger and badder that they believe it themselves. They believe your innate fear and ethical nature will stay your hand in their intimidating presence. Prove them wrong. Gut them using their own knives and then, while their humiliation is hanging out for everyone to see, turn the conversation right back to your grown-ups talk, where you have the advantage.
Do you have a pre-school puppet version without the big words? Asking for LaBilge.
Did I already mention IMAX? Yes. Yes, I did.
Judo (Japanese for “the gentle way”) emphasizes winning in combat by using your opponent’s weight and strength as weapons against him, while preserving your own mental and physical energy. It embodies the principle that good technique can win out over sheer strength. QFT.
We just had that here in MI: a right-wing senator accused a Democratic senator of being upset that she couldn’t groom kids. Here’s the excellent response.
Sadly, yes we did, and this one was pretty bad even by the already low standards of the QAnon-friendly crowd who accuse everyone they don’t like of enabling (or even being) pedophiles.
How long before one of these guys does the straddle legged limp into an ER/Urgent Care center for treatment of his badly sunburned testicles and perineum? Thinking it will not take much exposure to burn an area that probably has never experienced direct sun exposure. Sometime within the next month?
Hopefully it will give the medical staff a laugh or two. Probable better than dealing with an unvaxxed covid patient insisting covid isn’t real.
Real Men™️ don’t go to the ER.
“Sadly, yes we did, and this one was pretty bad even by the already low standards of the QAnon-friendly crowd who accuse everyone they don’t like of enabling (or even being) pedophiles”
It would seem to me that the ‘ideal’ environment for child abuse to flourish is one in which the family follows the right wing ideal. Non-interference in others business, strict family hierarchy, lack of public services, oppressive religious views, parental right of control over offspring.
And to left bots it’s white supremacists rather than pedophile. Silliness and distraction to be sure.
Re: that trailer.
George Takei posted it on his Facebook Page, and someone then edited it by overdubbing it with “It’s raining men” and posted a link.
I’ll try to post the link (the overdubbed trailer is on YouTube). It is hilarious.
I lost the link, but someone also overdubbed the trailer with YMCA.
YMCA dub. It’s okay, though very cliché.
Still want to see Julian’s version. It sounds too funny for words.
You are a gentleman and a scholar, sir.
Also my keyboard hates you now.
Leaving this here:
And, yes, the two absolutely need to be intercut into videos that play from now to November.
Carlson and friend choose to play literal dick games? Excellent. Knee them until their testosterone-free balls all rupture. And then point and laugh at that too. Make their macho, posturing, Wannabe Fight Club posse abandon them for fear of being laughed out as metrosexless faggots too. No quarter; and no testicles left pleasingly browned neither.
The lack of scientific thought is regrettable.
Given that men have been hiding their testicles for hundreds or thousands of years (and longer), it’s hardly lightly that a lack of infrared to the sack is a cause of anything.
However, I’m sure that hanging your nuts in front of an electric element is very safe….
I almost can hear the electric element singing: “Come a little bit closer, you’re my kind of man.”
“I almost can hear the electric element singing: “Come a little bit closer, you’re my kind of man.”
Thanks, now I have coffee sprayed all over my desk. bravo.
Dammit, do you know how much coffee costs these days! Not to mention screen cleaning!
Were I worked, we weren’t allowed to drink behind the computer,
“Were I worked, we weren’t allowed to drink behind the computer,”
Was at my home desk, drafting notes. The only victims other than the desk were a page of notes and a fountain pen. The pen was easily cleaned.
What’s more, that system has been designed to keep gametes at a regulated temp. Putting them under a heat lamp is a sure fire way to lower your sperm count. Ask any fertility expert.
Quiet, you. Comrade Carlson is working.
I’m sure the history of Nordic guys living in the sunless north and hiding their junk under animal skins proves they were effeminate girly-men compared to the historic Mediterranean manly-men from sunny Rome and Greece who, apparently, had lots of testosterone and, therefore, never engaged in homosexual relations…
How do you combat people dumb enough to be indoctrinated by something this neutron star dense stupid?
They aren’t rational humans… they are trained unthinking animals.
Is that why Trump left NY for the sunshine state?
Shh! Don’t tell them that the anatomy of junk is designed to reduce heating of the sperm to increase virility. If enough of them adopt the practice, perhaps there will be a significant enough drop in births to swing politics in a rational direction
The problem with that is that it will take decades to have much of an effect because that’s how long it will take for the decrease in the number of children to manifest itself as a decrease in the number of adults.
To be serious for a moment-
Serendipitously, Rachel Maddow featured a story last night ( in detail at MSNBC) about how fascisti under Putin routinely accused their opponents of pedophilia as a means of cancelling their authority in government during his reign which sounds very similar to rightist tactics to
smear liberals/ moderates. Her guest, Jane Mayer ( The New Yorker), wrote a piece detailing its current usage including how it was used recently against Supreme Court nominee, Ketanji Brown Jackson ( who “went light” on pedophiles) and other court nominees.
Accuse your opponent of inhuman crimes- how can they then win?
Because I follow altie BS and have seen how it has evolved, I note that outright claims of pedophilia are still rare ( but seen at NN frequently) BUT other alties hint about ” children” being harmed: I imagine it might be a way of subliminally suggesting worse crimes to Q folk without saying it outrightly.
HOWEVER smearing opponents ( SBM advocates) by implying other crimes is rather common across the board:
Dr Fauci killed hiv/ aids patients and tortured puppies
Drs Hotez and Offitt destroyed children’s lives by supporting vaccination. Similar Dr Pan, CDC, NHS, etc
How about accusating doctors in general for prescribing “dangerous” meds and Orac in particular? ( Adams wrote libelous articles about the many crimes of Dr DG). Also PRN, Katie Wright, AoA, Mercola, Del etc.
-btw- those images of “masculine” Donald and Vlad are supposed to appeal to women? SRSLY.
I am probably taller than Putin ( not that height is everything but in his case, yes)
“BUT other alties hint about ” children” being harmed”
The hints (subtle or blatant) about children being in danger because of X, Y, or Z are used (IMO) not because they are suitable tools of accusation but because of a secondary move: as soon as one of the targets dismisses them they can be cast as “soft” or “not caring” about those threats. A similar thing is true with terrorism: look at the growing threats to messaging encryption from our government (and others): those threats are wrapped in “child porn operators love it”, “terrorists love it” crap.
This generation of right-wing authoritarians play threats to children and from terrorists not because they give a rat’s ass about either one, but because they believe it is an effective weapon for tainting people they oppose.
QFT, and also to hide all their own sins and preserve their precious social order that keeps them on top, no matter how rotten it grows inside.
That link’s from India, another ostensibly democratic nation now willingly embracing authoritarian thug rule, but stories of small town Americana indulging in the exact same behavior for the exact same reasons are easy to find for those that choose to do so.
A good time to step over their white picket fences and show whose closets are really full. And if at any time you start pulling your punches, go read some more of those stories and know that that’s what they’re after: not an end to abuse, but the end of admitting it.
Because it’s the same damn thing, all the way down. Power, Control, and the Right to abuse other human beings for selfish, sadistic self-gratification with utter impunity. And the sooner these links sear into the public consciousness, the sooner all abuse and its practitioners will be found accountable.
A “light” version of this is RFK Jr’s group name “Children’s” health defense. Qanon gateway drug. And Jr has been a guest on Tucker, a disgrace to his dad and uncle’s legacies.
Thinking about this:
RFK jr’s audience includes vaccines-cause-autism believers who may be more vulnerable to this because autism is 3 or 4 times more likely in boys. Also Anne Dachel- “loss of our brain trust”- who bemoans what the future will be like when we “lose” all those boys. Seneff: eventually the rate of autism in boys will skyrocket to unbelievable proportions ( I forget the exact rates).
I found the image of Little Lord Swansonboy setting his penis on fire, very amusing – in fact, the first time I watched it, I’m sure my neighbors heard the loud guffaws. However, I did find the cow-fondling, rather offensive.
This latest article is an obvious attempt to distract us from dramatic revelations about SNAKE VENOM infiltrated into Covid-19 treatments, vaccines and the water supply.
Just connect the dots. Fauci…the Pope…the Rothschilds…Jesuits*…and even Donald Trump.
*the Rothschilds are actually Jesuits! This changes everything.
Hang on a mo! I thought the Rothschilds were supposed to be Illuminati?
Or does this mean that the Jesuits are Illuminati? Or what? I just can’t keep up any more…
This short take on the snake venom thing from Wonkette is an entertaining addendum to the more in-depth Anna Merlan story DB linked above. Fun factoid: Stew Peters has also featured Stella Immanuel as a guest…
re those cartoons:
Pro Tip – if you have to label a character’s waistband or have them waving their nation’s flag, you’re not portraying them realistically enough for people to identify them – they are after all, very well known people.
Also, if you have to add so much text to explain the imagery, what it is, and what it means, you’ve failed as a cartoonist.
I suspect Garrison also fails as a psych evaluation. An unfiltered firehose is one of its “tells”. Thoughts race ahead a million miles a minute, each word of epochal importance; it is all one can do to put them all down. The world will thank you later.
Seriously, when one so consummately out-Onions even The Onion, it deserves either Thorazine or a Pulitzer. And ol’ Benny boy there ain’t no Harper Lee, so that kind of narrows it down.
For the most part, though, Garrison’s caricature’s are recognizable to people who actually do know who they’re supposed to represent. If you look at the history of political cartooning, the over-labelling is a widely practiced convention of a certain style and certain era. I take Garrison’s use of it partly as an attempt to signal a MAGA mentality, a return to the “good old days”.
It’s not really bad cartooning, just bad politics.
Perhaps, but almost no cartoonist uses that hyperlabeled style of political cartooning anymore.
i don’t know whether it’s bad cartooning or not but it’s bad drawing.
See also the image listed as Related at the end of the post: would you know that that’s Dr Fauci if it wasn’t labelled? And that horse? Most of the characters in the cited cartoon aren’t good likenesses AND it’s so easy to copy artwork or use photos as a guide especially if you draw on a computer. No excuse for this level of badness although he’s amongst woo-meisters so who could tell.
I just realised:
that homoero… I mean * hyper-masculine* imagery has another similarity to Riefenstahl’s- they’re white.
Could the message be that white guys are now weaker and produce less children as the population shifts in the so-called West. It is projected that minority majorities may occur soon and that amongst kids, it is already happening.
I just read that 7 US states which are the most diverse ethnically/ racially seem to be all liberal leaning.
The lost Eden we’ve often referred to ( as well as 1950s nostalgia) is populated by whiteys**.
** I can say that
That should be mostly moderate/ left leaning. For some reason, I left out Florida and Texas- I wonder why.
Needless to say, Tucker’s video image stirred up much confusion online:
1) As Orac knows, but many seemed to miss, tanning requires Ultraviiolet (UV) light, not red light.
2) I couldn’t resist a quick look for the device emitting the red light, so Googled: red light testosterone, and was surprised to find a plethora of products emitting red light to solve a variety of ailments!
Although not quite the same device, this is the closest I found, although I didn’t look too hard (2 fans on back, but not quite tall enough):
Akin to many other products it says: “Dual switches, one each for 660nm (Red) and 850nm (NIR)”, i.e.,
660nm (red) is just red light (625-750nm), https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visible_spectrum
NIR = Near Infra Red, i.e., heat lamp, which may actually be useful I guess, (albeit not for sperm production),
but of course one can buy oridnary heat lamp bulbs for $12 or so, rather less expensive without the red light.
Amazon sells many products for red light therapy:
There are ~7 pages of products, including:
panels of various sizes
Does Tucker have an investment in one of these co’s? 🙂
OF COURSE NOT ENDORSEMENT, Wikipedia says of chromotherapy:
although it does not address the testosterone issue 🙂
The red light device Tucker’s ‘expert’ was using is a Joovv. The company is online with a slick website at joovv.com.
Dammit, now I’m probably going to have to go and look up the device.
It is interesting to note that red light (LED) face masks are available to women to make them more feminine.
Sexual confusion, perhaps. But is it really homosexual to be truly in love with oneself?
Among the (many, many) things that are weird, creepy and wrong about all of this, I’d like to make a point about the “hard time, hard men, good times, weak men” thing. To believe that just requires an astonishing level of historical ignorance.
Here are a couple of examples of “hard times” that either had nothing to do with how “hard” men were, or were when men would have been described as “hard” by these masculinity worshipers.
1) The Plague of Justinian. That was a catastrophically hard time in the Mediterranean by any measure. But it was also a time when the Eastern Roman Empire was strong and in possession of one of the greatest generals of all time, who fought a lot of very impressive battles, campaigns and wars. Given that war at that time was pretty much all hand-to-hand combat, I’d say that meets the definition of “hard”. And yet, disease, famine, and the loss of the Western Empire.
2) The Black Death/Great Mortality. An even worse time to be attempting to be alive in Europe. And hardly a time of excess, pomp, and “femininity”; rather it was in the middle of the Hundred Year’s War, another war of almost exclusively hand-to-hand combat (and archery). And it wasn’t like it was only knights who went to war, most of the poor suckers who died were peasants, who lived incredibly hard lives most of the time, between brutal manual labor, the regular periods of famine, and all the other diseases. So, again, not a lot of sitting around reading poetry and eating grapes.
(Side note, this idea that poetry=girly is not some historical constant. The Angelo Saxons (hardly a “soft” culture) loved poetry. They wrote all kinds of epic poems about battles and monsters and whatnot. Heck, the three oldest poems I can think of, The Illiad, the Odyssey, and the Aeneid are all about battles and wars and fights and heroic acts of daring-do.)
So where do these ideas of “weak men” come from? A lot of it comes from the Ancient Romans complaining (at the time) about their crappy kings or emperors, because Rome was all about that martial image. Heck, loving that martial image gave Rome one of its worst emperors (Caligula) who ended up on the throne because his dead father was a war hero. (That sure didn’t make him a good emperor. Or a good person.)
All of the people promoting these ideas about the mythic past of “hard men” and “women in their place” are utterly ignorant of actual history, the complexity and, frankly, how much the past sucked. But that ignorance is necessary, because if these people actually knew anything about the past they wouldn’t be able to hold it up as some kind of ideal.
It’s an oversimplification but I don’t believe it is entirely wrong. Im a student of history in hobby rather than academic form. There are plenty of social and political cycles that prove it true.
The issue I have with idiots like Carson is they would be the first to go if times really got hard. So would the Proud Boys. So would whatever the Black Block is calling themselves these days.
He sells this narrative to the overweight, beard-clad, balding guy who looks back on a life of regret and a future of more obligation than freedom. It’s seductive to those types. They are legion and they are not going away.
@ Mr. Yeti:
You seem like a pretty good person, so I’d like to attempt to talk you down from this particular crackpot theory of history. First of all, the meme casts different ‘times’ as having some universal characteristic — good or hard — applied to a society as a whole. Which is nonsense. Whether any particular historical situation constitutes hard times or good times depends on where you sit.
Let’s look at the ‘times’ created by various ‘strong men’: Stalin, Pol Pot, Anastasia Somosa, Augusto Pinochet (I could go on…) Good for some, no doubt. But not anything to rest a meme on.
If we look at the rise of “strong men”, we will see many advanced claims that “times are hard” and the powers that be were too weak to deal with them. But 1) even that is not the same as suggesting the weak men caused the hard times to begin with; 2) these claims are often manifestly false, with the general tenor of the times in which strongmen rise being objectively not that hard at all.
Obvious case in point: Trumpism emerging among a privileged class of middle-income White Christians, enjoying one of the highest standard of living anywhere on the planet. Different case in point; Stalin. The USSR made great strides in any number of areas after the revolution, and things were still going reasonably well when Lenin died and Stalin brutalized his way into power.
Not just the universality of ‘hard v. good’ suspect, and the material bases of these judgements dubious, but identifying these as the most significant causal values in work in historical dynamics. Better terms might be ‘conflict’ and ‘peace’. It occurs to me that a paradigm case one might offer for the meme is Britain in the late 30’s with Chamberlain the ‘weak man’ who “created” the “hard times” by appeasing Hitler, and Churchill the “strong man” who created the “good times” by leading Britain through the Allies victory. It’s stunningly oversimplified to reduce complex geopolitics to the personas of individuals, but if we must, couldn’t we just say “in times of war, a society will call on it’s warriors, and not rely exclusively on it’s diplomats”? That hardly sounds all that profound, and wouldn’t be much of a hook for a quasi-fascist post-apocalyptic science fiction novel. And I’m not sure FDR fits any “strong man” stereotype…
If I see any aphorisms involved in historical cycles involving “strong men”, they’re “power corrupts” and “meet the new boss, same as the old boss”. One of the right-wing dictators I cited above, Samosa, was overthrown by the Sandinista’s, who immediately came under assault from the US-backed Contra terrorists and a variety of sanctions. However “hard” the Sandinistas had needed to be to depose the old regimes, they got harder trying to hold onto power. Ultimately they were voted out, but not in favor of stronger men, but ‘moderate’ leaders more supplicant to established global powers. Things didn’t improve much, and after former Sandinista president Daniel Ortega re-worked his political alliances, he was able to recapture the presidency and now acts as an authoritarian more or less indistinguishable from the Somosa regimes he once opposed.
Or take Bibi Netanyahu. Please… :- )
Sadmar – I appreciate your response. I am, by no means, arguing that this theory is completely valid. It’s reductionist, it’s over-simplistic. I do believe that there is something to it.
Bad times create some hard/strong men/women. They also break the vast majority. Why do we use the selection techniques we use for our most elite soldiers? An example of lesser gravity might be what I have seen throughout my lifetime with regard to who can stand up to disappointment or obstacles and truly thrive. The immigrant who opens a thriving business after arriving with $10 in his/her pocket. Regardless, there are a great many examples throughout history where, even among people at the edge of excellence in their fields, those who outpace the rest are ones who had to overcome adversity of some kind.
Weak folks create bad times. Chamberlain’s actions embolden Hitler and set a continent aflame. All while he and the British Aristocracy were taking long vacations in the country. The excesses of the 1920’s landed us in a depression. The Romans ignored real threats to their security because they thought themselves “Invincible” and look what happened.
Good times create weak men/women. Example #1 – Trump’s children. Heck, Trump. Carlson. The lot of them. Many of my colleagues have children who are ne’er-do-wells after being raised in a wealthy physician’s home. The Kardashians are a particularly-odious example.
This could go on but I have to go catch a tiny, slimy human…
Someone should tell Carlson that Real Men Use Gamma Rays.
Ooooh. Or the real reason behind the construction of the LHC?
Hey Orac, did you hear that Leslie Manookian, a favourite antivaxxer of yours, was behind the lawsuit that got the transportation mask mandate dropped? I’m a little surprised you haven’t pointed it out.
I had not heard this.
I saw it last night and am waiting for Orac to write about it.
From yellowcake to beefcake, it’s all about building Permission.
In addition to being one of the few media voices brave enough to dramatize the testicular feminization of America, Tucker Carlson is helping to expose the extraterrestrial mutilation (emasculation?) of cattle:
You can’t help but be mooved by his devotion to the truth.
I looked at that article. Wow. What udder claptrap.
Must say I love the testicular tanning nonsense. The pose is great.
As to fascism, we’re having one here saying “I’ll govern like a good mother”.
Gender-neutral fascism ?
Anyhow. Very sad world.
Can’t say I expect much of it anymore.
@ Monsieur F:
Is she a MILF or just an ordinary MF?
More seriously, which candidate do you think is best/ least awful? Most likely to win?
@ Denice Walter
“More seriously, which candidate do you think is best/ least awful? Most likely to win?”
French elections are notoriously unpredictable. Up to now, the far right never made it, but the problem is that the far right is so taboo in France that people do not voice their preferences openly. Which is why polling forecasts should not be trusted too much.
I nonetheless do see Macron winning.
The bottom line is however that our Constitution is kind of behaving like a straightjacket, more or less de facto forbidding direct consultation, and imposing a model of secularism which people tend to believe “is not strong enough” against islam.
So, in any case, whatever the vote be, we are heading for constitutional trouble. Which is always a bad thing.
The rising level of nationalism is also IMO alarming, with many on the right or the far right justifying their complacency if not open support for Putin by blunt hatred of anything “anglo-saxon” (i.e. UK + US).
I do see Macron winning, but I also believe France is going to be an Achille’s heel of the West if things do not change.
I do not think our far right is big on testicular tanning. But it is big on organised complacency and false moral equivalences.
And no matter the outcome, islam and the veil question will remain a festering wound. It starts being a breaking point in France’s model of secularism, and we can see the catholic far right instrumentalising secularism to push a model of state-sponsored religious confrontation.
So, basically, things are getting ugly. Everyone is pushing for confrontation, essentially.
And let’s be clear: whereas mainstream parties use the constitution as a shield society from ugly debates they do not want to happen, the far right is quite bent on violating the question on multiple points. So it’s almost a certainty, in a 10 years horizon, that the constitutional question will crack open, and most likely in an ugly way. The mandate of “elites” is not unquestionable as they pushed it a tad too far… our state and society is not open enough, and the “elites” do share responsibility in that.
The very ugly point lurking in the shadows is that our model of “populism” is in fact not at all libertarian but very much statist. So while the psychological underpinnings of fascist tendencies in US and France are not at all dissimilar in essence, their institutional translation will be different, and will be autocratic here if they materialise. Much more than in the US.
Your far right tends to want state rights to circumvent institutional constraints. Our far right still fantasises about King, Empire, national pride and catholicism very much in the fashion of a powerful central state. So institutional translations of populism will not be the same if ever they materialise.
I really hate the forced remigration to France psychiatry imposed on me. They made choices for me I never would have taken had they left me alone. I hate them. 200 %. Wish I were dead every day.
@ Monsieur F:
I truly feel for you and wish that there was something that I could do to help. Your life must be difficult because of your past and I know that many might tell you to distract yourself or try meditation or yoga or a new sport or meds or religion BUT I imagine that those options might be not efficacious and you’ve probably already tried them and many others to little or no effect.
HOWEVER I hope that I might give you food for thought:
as you know, many forms of psychotherapy incorporate delving into past trauma and integrating it into your present day persona as if to tame it- put it under your control in consciousness. They seek out minute details of the harmful events and their perpetrators; they are re-iterated over and over in the course of many years.
But we know in cognitive psychology that whatever we repeat, elaborate or spend time thinking about, “building worlds” around and immersing ourselves in BECOMES MORE POWERFUL and a greater defining aspect of our identity.
Of course, it’s hard to sidestep horrible injuries and long term pain BUT can there be a way to turn down the volume a little? And spend some waking time with friendlier thoughts, ideas and imagery? I don’t know. Is there something that is more than your pain? I know you love maths and you have great linguistic gifts in foreign languages.
How can one banish or repel thoughts that hurt? Philosophers and artists have tried for millennia. I studied memory and thought but observe that certain avenues of speculation lead us into traps that we should avoid at all costs. Memory is associative via great linguistic trees. Are there warning signs that occur BEFORE you become immersed? What “takes you away” from this? I wish I knew. I would tell you. You deserve better days.
@ Denice Walter
The problem is not so much that I’m stuck in a mental loop. It’s also a social loop. There essentially is no way out as far as I can see.
I am not trying to banish or repel thoughts. I try to look in the eyes of everything that is ugly to see how ugly it really is. And essentially, everything that is lying or ugly keeps reminding me of just about everything. And I’m the type of person that has a photographic memory. So I just think I’ll have to deal with it.
A way out is drowning myself in maths. It’s both escapism and productive. The problem is that I now have found the essential results I’ve been looking for. Got many of them. Here’s one that’s on me (with small mistakes and typos, but nothing big).
It’s a problem because I see that the main bottleneck I face is not finding original results anymore. At all. It’s getting to connect with people that may help me getting it published. I lack the keys and social cues to unlock access to publication. I’d need someone to guide me through all the mistakes to not make without sacrificing the gist of my work in the process. To sum it up, I believe I have the material for a nice PhD thesis all set up in my personal notes and I’d need a advisor or akin that would help guide me in the process of organizing all this material into a coherent whole. Doing it all alone with no support starts becoming too much.
When you’re spending more time trying to contact and convince people who do not bother reading you than time spent on research itself because it’s sorted out, you kind of know the bottleneck is not on you anymore. But being socially isolated, email and phone is not enough to thoroughly convince people that your work is relevant. They need to accept getting into serious discussion. I had some success with a few respected academics, but people are too busy to dedicate any serious time on my work except idle and interested chatter.
So, if I drop my work, I’ll get back into my mental loop and will not have no hope of breaking my social loop. And now that I’m in recurrent psychogenic vomiting (started 3 or 4 years ago) I do not believe I could hold any regular job anyway. And I won’t see a doctor for that. Never will anyway as long as the things that are written in my records keep being written in them. And as that will never change, I will not seek any help from people who dare think what they wrote on me.
So, only solution is now waiting for people I contacted getting back to me if they bother reading me. Spending days waiting on my inbox. Nothing much else going on.
I’d love having been medically left alone when I asked for it. I’d likely still be relatively healthy and employed. Now, I stay in bed and wait for days to pass. Seems like this is what everyone had in mind for me from the start anyway. I just hope France will commit suicide tonight. It will be my Schadenfreude. I wish them ill.
“They’re not wrong, either. Fascism tends to worship the masculine while viewing homosexuals and transgender people as dire threats to what they view as the normal patriarchal order of things that has supposedly been “nature’s will” since time immemorial.”
I must say I’ve been very disturbed by that recently.
I’ve been wandering around on the Internet concerning the Ukraine war in order to conceptually assess the nature of popular support for Putin. In Europe, Asia and Africa. On the net. The common point, behind all the excuses they came up for venerating Russia and Putin (and there are a lot of them) boils down to… gay.
Whether they be asian, african, commies, anticolonials, white supremacists… all of them have this rhetoric about The Gay West which is very unsettling.
I’m almost having a vibe that the geopolitical translation of the Ukraine war in the psyche of the common man boils down to “fuck the gays”.
Seems like we are fighting a religious war on the topic of gayness.
I’m all the more annoyed as, not being gay at all myself, my mother did say that had I been gay, she would have been psychiatrically tougher on me. M’kay… as if that was possible in the first place.
I honestly understand less and less what is wrong with people.
F68: “I’ve been wandering around on the Internet”
Careful: You’ll go blind doing that!
“to conceptually assess the nature of popular support for Putin. In Europe, Asia and Africa.”
Bear in mind that some significant proportion of what you see will be Russian propaganda farms doing their jobs.
Beyond that, I would speculate further that Indian and Chinese support will be a mixture of formal propaganda (since both states benefit by Russian trade and support) plus individual citizens who have a natural hardon for authoritarian regimes (China having been one for 80 years and Modi’s BJP slipping India into one as well). And there’s no shortage of Africans who’ll be a mixture of that and those happy just to see western Europe getting its ass kicked after all the crap our Empires inflicted on them over centuries past (the enemy of my enemy…).
Homophobia certainly provides a rallying point (and again western empires will be partly to blame for that, imposing Christianity and other cultural toxicity on top of whatever was previously there), but if gayness didn’t exist they would rally around something else. Unity comes from facing a common threat together; even if they have to invent the threat wholesale. Hate builds commitment and motivation; raw numbers provide strength.
For mediocre people with no great merits of their own, defining themselves in terms of who they are not and then blaming those Others for their own life’s failure is a fantastically potent drug. And the ambitious psychopaths who play those desperate needy rubes into loyal footsoldiers for their own revolutions know how to sell that drug up a storm.
See also: operant conditioning, behavioral reinforcement.
“I honestly understand less and less what is wrong with people.”
That’s easy. Start at the dark parts of your own self, and project those traits fêted, amplified, and brought out into the open. What was once transgressive, given permission, now made acceptable—indeed unavoidably obligated—to keep up with the mob. The simple algebra of: once their number grows sufficient (30%), which side do you wish to be on: Abuser, Enabler, or Victim?
And if you don’t like the answer to that then, Good; you proved you’re still human.
Now imagine all those who, upon not liking that answer, chose to sell that unhappy truth out: to embrace instead their own little lie: “I am Good People.”
Once you know that, you can do whatever you must do disburdened of guilt.
Hitler bragged on his große Lüge; so proud was he of his own audaciousness! But it was not def Führer’s Big Lie that murdered 20 million people across Europe alone. It was the little lie clasped close to the hearts of another 13 million, what got them all.
If you want to look further, start with the resources that already exist on domestic violence and narcissistic abuse. I’m not claiming all these people are full NPD (they’re not), but as a default pattern for identifying abuser behaviors and how (and how not) to respond it is sound. Especially if you are a good caring human yourself who finds it hard to believe just how inhumanly awful others can be while still passing themselves off as part of the species, in which case your sensors want recalibration so you do not minimize or underreact.
Some people simply are not human. The core neural wiring that turns the rest of us into social empathetic animals is simply not present. In others, underpowered; held in check by social norms, but ready to turn venal if given permission.
Once you know the Abuser, then learn the Enabler dynamic. Because while absolute abusers may be comparatively few, their champions are legion; and they are the ones who make it all possible and, in so doing, tip over the line too.
I hadn’t seen the previous post on the connection between anti-vax and fascism, but I think you’re letting the lefty anti-vaxxers off the hook a bit.
One of the healthiest (!) bastians of anti-vax prior to the pandemic was lefty Waldorf schools, and the fasci temperament of those places isn’t even that sublte. They’ve got the purity obsession, not in the form of ball tanning, but certainly the lefty version of purity culture, as interpreted through the lens of the glorious Nordic past. The authoritarianism (teachers play the role of priest to the childrens’ souls), the fucked up racism (good POC can be reincarnated up the lightness scale until they attain Aryanhood), the distrust of science, all of it. Waldorf is really just the indoctrination arm of theosophy (19th century occult), interpreted by a German after WWI, who was not entirely comfortable with the liberal world. Really that’s not even the half of it. Peter Staudenmaier wrote a pretty interesting article recently on the history, “Why Waldorf Education Needs Critical Perspective,” which should be online.
This is the universe in which liberal anti-vax bloomed. The instincts of those liberal parents may not have been clear to them, but it’s hard to imagine how else people sign their kids up for a school renowned for it’s ugly past. I lost a number of friends to the Waldorf cult, and many of them, total ivory tower flower children, are now hard core right wingers.
IMO, you have to understand Waldorf to understand lefty anti-vax; they’re the sort of pharmaceutical-grade version of the type.
Search this blog. You’ll find that I’ve written about Waldorf schools before. In particular, I was cheesed that there’s anthroposophic medicine at my alma mater, but I’ve mentioned Waldorf schools in a number of other posts.
Speaking of Waldorf schools, I’m getting a a whiff of Waldorf vibe from a certain commenter here (not you).
On the subject of lefty anti-vax (but not Waldorfs, because my opinion of them is unprintable), we saw a very interesting thing with lefty anti-vax and the COVID vaccine in my area. We have a region (an island) where the general childhood vaccination rate was appallingly low. Like, really bad. (Area is also above-average for income and education.)
Then COVID happens, and then the COVID vaccines come along and what would you know but basically every single adult in that area got vaccinated against COVID. Promptly! They’re in the 90% range (for adults, don’t know about the 6-and up-crowd).
I don’t know if this pattern holds true in other “crunchy” areas, but it might be that the hippies saw people they know get sick and die and got scared and changed their minds about (some) vaccines. (Could also be a political thing, sadly.)
I don’t know the general answer, but it was true for Marin County.
True. Both Marin and Sonoma had high vaccination rates for Covid.
Interestingly, I live in another liberal area we have similar high rates for Covid vaccines BUT we never seem to have had much opposition to childhood vaccination rules. A few years ago though, Del and friends tried to stop legislation to curtail exemptions which was put on hold. He also recruited a young Black legislator who speaks at his events including LA ( which cost one million USD).
Update Jeff Holiday does a review on this Tucker Carlson Movie
A fair-weather liberal is just the closet authoritarian who hasn’t had cause yet to come right out. Certainly, there is no lack of social conservatism on the left; despite common misuse “left” and “progressive” are not synonymous.
The “tell” I think is between the person who is just happy being herself and the person quietly steaming that everyone else isn’t Her as well.
@ has, Orac, others above, today:
I think/ hope that you guys are talking about two different things:
— authoritarianism could be of the right or left . Fascism is a thing unto itself with highly specific characteristics ( extreme nationalism, leader worship, tolerance of individual ownership etc) whilst left oriented authoritarianism usually reflects communism- an economic philosophy and system – with common ownership of the means of production, central planning and (theoretical) equality of all citizens.
— what _has _ is referring to could be *similarities of personalities of authoritarian leaders* who seek power at any expense. There could be a tendency towards narcissism, sociopathy or other pathology which negates the importance, welfare and input of others.
I ask myself does an authoritarian leader HAVE to have such deadly psychological underpinnings? I don’t know for sure but it probably helps.
We might compare what ( so-called) ‘normal’ people do in extreme, dangerous, life-or-death circumstances: their focus shifts to their individual survival, purely to save themselves regardless of others’ fates.- control is everything as they fight tooth and nail, even if they have to kill another person or commit other crimes.
More frequently, we see power seekers somewhat eliminating others’ input and welfare as they single-handedly try to run a business or a family, bent to their own will in most everyday situations, not only in the most dramatic.
On a state level, psychopathology could lead to death and misery for millions as we have seen in both fascistic and communist regimes: did their leaders suffer the same personality traits? I DON’T KNOW. We might ask how much others’ compliance assisted them.
@Denice: I am using Eco’s own list. Which does not specify ownership requirements, although in both far-left and far-right systems a nation’s substantive assets all end up in the hands of its ruling elite anyway so I’d call that a wash.
As with the eye, which there may be multiple implementations with differences in detail, evolution converges on the same broad function every time: How to eat others while not being eaten oneself.
@Orac: I see the needle stung. I believe it needed. Because you are still demanding ontological perfection from those who make shit up for their living! Please STOP.
You provide them a big fat delicious free target: you. They don’t care for your accuracy: they care for making you fume. In opposing, you hand them exactly what they are after, proof they have Power over you, and the gratification of doubling down. Rule #1 of dealing with ODD and Narcissistic Abuse: DEPRIVE your Abuser of their target.
You fixate on the detail and miss the broad truth: “Fascism” works. Wonderfully. Its entymology (“fasces”) is unimportant; and though the word itself was coined in context of a far-right authoritarian regime (Mussolini’s Italy) and its even worse neighbor, it has long since extended to others as well. As a word, it is instantly recognized by billions; encapsulating not just the cold mechanical operating principles by which it is established and run, but also associating the full blood-soaked horror of every population fed to those meat grinding machines. In decent humans it invokes outrage, condemnation, revulsion; in then guilty, shameful evasion or open embrace. It generates motivation in every case. The word itself is USEFUL. And its POWER is unequaled. Why do you think they turn it against you?
You miss the greatest truth of them all: The battle for Language has already been fought and already long lost. By you. Look, you understand “Liberal Fascism” is an oxymoron. I understand “Liberal Fascism” is an oxymoron. Do you really think Nazi bootlicker Jonah Goldberg doesn’t understand it’s an oxymoron† too? And he’s one of the smarter ones, IQ significantly above the leg-humping rank and file fools; but even those room temperature rubes with their dribbling echolalia and rote-recited “two cocks”‡ know it’s bullshit deliberately designed and deployed for one purpose: to trigger you. They use language to attack; so why you still playing defensive bum moves? Use JUDO.
You’ve been busting SCAMs for—what—25 years? While these noxious buffoons haven’t had a real argument in the same, not since Murdoch and Gingrich enacted their Right-wing blockade on every idea and opinion not sanctioned by themselves. They don’t even turn up to debate any more! What that should tell you: they know they’ve already won the war, and are now just buying time while they cement themselves into absolute power. Arguing “You’re the fascist”; “No, you’re the fascist!”, as if classical dictionary definitions still count is now worse than useless: they will gleefully play that nonsense that all day; distracting, diverting; fattening on it while you wear yourself out.
Understand: you CAN’T beat them on your turf, your rules; because that ground is already lost. You need to repurpose those fearsomely big brains of yours into figuring out how to destroy them on theirs. And y’all need to do it real SOON.
Thought for Today: “Left Fascism” is a gift.
[With apologies for slowness, but it was either that or apologizing for length. (This is, like, attempt #4. When it comes to sheer WALL OF TEXT I will best anyone, even our gracious host!) I will attempt to wrap a second half tomorrow.]
† It means “Oxygen-thieving Morons”, btw. (Also two words that are mutually contradictory, but that’s not important right now.)
‡ “Tu quoques”, for those who know their Latin from their lats. Although the base spelling probably works too.
It’s been said that the extremes meet up eventually. I picture a Mobius structure.
True, both usually wind up with a few amassing great wealth.
In a recent novel about warring fascisti and communists in Naples, an ardent communist keeps needing reminders that “we’re all equal” even women !
( Storia di chi fugge e di chi reste)
So, “left fascism”, and why this Reich-wing tu-quoque is a gift to be embraced, not rebuffed as “it’s technically wrong” as you—we—currently do.
Dumb is being predictable.
Dumb is repeating all our previous moves while hoping for a somehow different result this time.
Dumb is believing that being correct makes us right.
As the titular Right happily informs us themselves, Might makes that. Not anything else.
They understand too that certain words possess intrinsic power due to their deep cultural associations. In this case, the word “fascism” encapsulates especially horrific and universally recognized† atrocities perpetrated by extreme authoritarians happy to butcher millions in pursuit of their absolute power. That these particular tyrants happened to spring from right, not left, of politics is immaterial: they simply embraced the most promising materiel available to them at the time. As others have noted, the Nazis initially sold themselves as “friends to the worker class”; hence Nationalsozialistische, though were happy to pivot full right as soon as that proved their most effective route to full power.
Why, it’s almost as if a popular marketing message can bear bugger-all resemblance to what’s in the box! Who knew?!‡
Words have Power. That’s why they use them. Both for themselves and against us.
And when it comes to the word “fascism”, their goal is to detach it from “far-right” and reassociate it with “far-left”. And then, having created this new association, attach it to us.
We can’t prevent that by opposing it. We can get the jump on them first.
The association of the word “conservative” to “right-wing” is also unfortunate. The hard-left is packed with social and economic conservatives too; and, like those on the right, what they’re concerned about conserving is Themselves and Their Way of Life.
e.g. Back here on Airstrip One, back when we were sweeping our piece from the board in a fit of entitled pique, the leader of the so-called “opposition”, Corbyn was just as profoundly xenophobic and anti-immigration as our own Reactionary Right; with the only difference between Rees-Mogg and Corbyn being that the latter didn’t have the stones to say it out loud, thinking he could let them enact his objectives so he could sweep into power once they took the fall. (Last joke was on the Mad Trot though, as his precious culturally-conservative “working class” overwhelmingly voted for the Human Dustbin instead.)
So there’s another strongly associated word—“conservative”—to tuck in your hat for repurposing later. A ton of fun.
Instead of pushing back—which rewards them—lean into it hard. Embrace this definition of “left fascism” because, for all its technical imperfection, it is of real practical value. Our language evolves to serve us; ontology adapts whether you like it or not. The word “Fascism” is already the ideal shorthand for “extremist tyrannical regime that enthusiastically murders millions to achieve and maintain absolute power”, complete with working examples.
So let’s nail down “left fascism”: Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot. Easy. And, purely in terms of raw kills, even worse than Hitler, Mussolini, Pinochet, and the various right-wing dictators happily installed in South American and Middle East nations by US, UK, and others to serve their own interests. These evil far-left fuckers and evil far-right fuckers 100% deserve each other. And what’s the common characteristic to them all? Evil fuckers.
Having agreed with them that “Fascism is Fascism”, regardless of origin, we factor out the “right” vs “left” argument as an unimportant implementation detail. (Again, I know this must pain some of you. Do try not to fixate. They don’t.)
The battle now is between (undeniably) Evil vs (nominally) good, and who among us gets to own which.
And yes, I am fully aware this is a Black-White definition to give y’all major dyspepsia. That’s part of my point: we are choosing to play on their board by their rules.
Now, here’s why Nazi bootlicker Jonah Goldberg gets to play his “Liberal Fascism” bullshit: because as long as “left fascism” isn’t pinned down, he can position it wherever he wants. And from their point of view, ensconsed in their inertially dampened right-wing echo chamber, we are the ones receding into the distance as they feel themselves to be motionless. Thus they can logically infer that liberals are approaching left fascism, thereby creating an imminent threat to all real freedom lovers. (Sound familiar? Of course it does.)
Our next problem: as long as we play the Left vs Right game, we play on a 1D board. Denice notes the obvious aphorism: move far enough to an extreme and eventually they all meet up. By discarding the trivial distinctions and agreeing the far greater commonalities are what matters, we can join the two ends into one.
Now we have a 2D circle. And as we are magnanimous let us expand this into a 3D sphere, the surface of which is our new board. And into its bottom we hammer a big ugly rusty nail which we label “Fascism”, period.
The trap is built.
Now we pull out a couple of pins and Eco’s List (14 bullets for 14 words) and we run this checklist against ourselves. Be ruthless in doing this. There are probably 2 or 3 we must pencil in because, hey, natural human tendencies. Everyone has them. Own your own. (I do.) And then, bold as brass, we go right ahead and stick our pin in straight at the top. (Because again, we are ignoring trivial niggles, as agreed with them when we accepted their common unified definition of “Fascism”. And because, immediately grabbing the best seat for oneself is a language they understand well.)
The trap set.
Now we hand them the other pin and the List, and invite them to do the same for themselves. And, oh… there’s a problem. Either they must place their pin close to ours, thus admitting they and we are really no different, or they must place their pin as far away from ours as possible, which puts them the closer to Fascism.
Needless to say, both prospects will steam them.
’Cos here is the neat thing about spheres: their surface is implicitly bounded. You can move forever if you want; but there’s only so many places you can go. No matter your personal choice of direction, move far enough and the place you’ll end up is the same.
On the original straight line they could play endless shenannigans, extending or trimming it or sliding it beneath us to make us look the worst. On the surface of a sphere: shrink or inflate it, the relative distances of the pins to the nail are constant. They can’t game it: someone is going closest to Fascism… oh, and you seem to be stuck on the List—do you require some assistance with that?
The trap snap’t.
…straight onto these prize goofballs, who loudly pride themselves on their fabulous 5D Chess; a skill easy to claim never having to prove they can do it. And we’re playing on a spherized 2D surface; not even a full 3D board.
Note that we are still playing their game, by their rules. It was their choice to merge “far-left” and “far-right” into a single Fascism, requiring translation from line to circle, generously spherized to ensure that no matter an individual’s choice of direction they will end up the same place by going far enough. That is logic which cannot be argued; only run away from, like a coward.
Needless to say, this is the point at which they attempt to move our pin and put their own in its place. But, once again: Eco’s List. At any time, we can run ourselves through it again, and for reference run Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, and Mao through it as well. We can prove there is distance between us and all of those fascists; and, again, we are generous: if they can prove they pass through Eco’s checklist even cleaner than we are, they can shift our pin a little bit down to make room for themselves. Encourage them to do so, and for every line they do not tick, serve them with properly cited cases from their own recent history and current events (as promoters of science you know how to do this), and Sharpie that box on their behalf
If they give up and run away, stick their pin in for them. If they choose to stay and plough through Eco’s list, help them to grade themselves honestly.
Now, the goal here is NOT to humiliate them. The goal is to assist them towards accepting themselves. To the question of “Who is closest to fascism?”, the totality of the evidence already answers itself. The goal now is to free them from the little lie that enables them to snuggle up close never having to admit it.
Aaand… that’s quite enough of that for now. I’m off for a walk. If/When I get around to it, I will finish that line in a third and final post. As a teaser, here’s the wrap-up:
You believe this is a fight for Science. It is not; it is a battle for the Right to Abuse. While you argue technically who is “right” vs who is “wrong”, they work emotively to acquire their Enablers. All the fence-sitters, the equivocators, the boat steadiers. The silent majority, who just want a quiet life for themselves; and if that means throwing the occasional Other to sharks then that’s a price they will live with…at least while that blood doesn’t splash back on themselves. Those are the people who determine what is acceptable Abuse, and who may be Victim and who will not, all the while without accepting any of the responsibility for it.
So why are you still trying to play “science rules”? Because you’re a scientist? They don’t! Hell, they aren’t even playing “conservative rules”, despite asserting that they are the true conservatives. You have these amazing brains, full of insight, experience, encylopedic knowledge. And yet you miss what ought to be obvious.
The game is Abuse. They are the Abusers. Our job is to determine the Victims. You cannot stop a true Abuser (short of a bullet) while arguing with them just feeds them what they want: time, and proof that they can play you too. What you can do is limit their freedom to act; by making their Enablers pay for it all.
† Within western societies. (Asian societies are often woefully ignorant of our history, just as we westerners are as woefully ignorant of theirs.)
‡ I mean, apart from the very young and innocent, and absolutely everyone who isn’t deliberately choosing to lie to themselves? [The latter, unfortunately, being quite a lot.]
You amuse me if you think that Eco’s checklist is the be-all and end-all of defining what fascism is. As for the rest, you seem to think that we are naive about disinformation and its purposes, but that doesn’t mean that we should just give up and go all Humpty-Dumpty about language, as you seem to have been arguing. For those not familiar, I’m referring to this famous passage from Lewis Carroll’s Through the Looking Glass:
@ Orac (@ has)
The reality is that some people use Truth or truth claims as weapons. And others do not.
The reality is that way too many people do not see the point in discriminating what is true and what is false.
And this is all the more true in politics.
It is indeed therefore pointless playing the science game with people who weaponise truth claims. The only counter-attack is not playing with them but playing with their audience to make some realise that Truth does indeed matter.
For now, psychological tendencies of most humans lead them to think that Truth or truth claims are merely a weapon and that truth does not really exist.
Back to Russia:
“The very disrespect of Russians for objective truth — indeed, their disbelief in its very existence — leads them to view all stated facts as instruments for furtherance of one ulterior purpose or another. There is good reason to suspect that this government is a conspiracy within a conspiracy ; and I for one am reluctant to believe that Stalin himself receives anything like an objective picture of the outside world. Here there is ample scope for the type of subtle intrigue at which Russians are past masters. Inability of foreign governments to place their case squarely before Russian policymakers — extent to which they are delivered up in their relations with Russia to good graces of obscure and unknown advisers — this to my mind is the most disquieting feature of diplomacy in Moscow, and one which western statesman would do well to keep in mind if they would understand the nature of difficulties encountered here.” — page 7 of George Kennan’s long telegram.
Nothing has changed.
We are not here discussing facts, or psychological biases in the assessment of facts.
We are, as sad is it is, now waging a war for the mere right of Truth to be something to be valued inherently. Against people who believe that there is no truth and that truth claims are mere “instruments for furtherance of one ulterior purpose or another.”
Which is precisely the type of mentality that people like Lucas are promoting. They do not believe that truth exists. They indeed believe that it does not. And that’s it’s just a weapon.
Which is why they are so brazen in making moral equivalences between raped and rapist. Among many other very evil things.
I’ve always wondered about your stupidity. And this time you make no exception.
You blame Tucker of being a propagandist. Whether he is or is not, it is subsidised people like you that bombard the public with information in support of a cause. Whether this is reliable information or desinformation is of no importance to you. It is sad however that in your strategy you even deny statistics that clearly proof that these vaccines you’re so desperately promoting, are hidden but true killers. I proved this deception in “Dr. Robert Malone goes full antivaccine conspiracist”.
In my opinion it’s Americans like you that don’t know anything real about fascism and its backgrounds. You may have read somewhere that fascism is far right ideology. In reality it is the opposite, it is far left ideology. Now I’m not here to teach you why, do your own study. But seen in this light, would you call Tucker a leftist?
How would you call yourself?
blockquote>I proved this deception in “Dr. Robert Malone goes full antivaccine conspiracist”.
You didn’t prove spit. All you did was make a bunch of claims that were refuted.
You are an amusing troll. Did you buy the device from Tucker Carlson to increase your virility?: https://www.politico.com/gallery/2022/04/22/the-nations-cartoonists-on-the-week-in-politics-00026851?slide=13
lucas, you repeatedly lied about the number of deaths from vaccines. You repeatedly lied about some nebulous conspiracy that was going to victimize us. You repeatedly lied about “moral decline”. It’s becoming more and more clear that you lied when you claimed to be n economist, a developer, an expert in data analysis, as it’s clear you don’t have a good god-damn bit of education to your name, as you claim fascism is a left-wing thing.
From Oxford online:
Those are not long explanations, obviously, just two quick notes that your little vomiting of garbage above are monumentally wrong. (And, as you demonstrated when there were repeated postings of articles and research showing your assertions about vaccines and deaths to be bogus, it’s a certainty you’d pay no attention to details and historical fact anyway.)
That’s your operating procedure isn’t it? You make outlandish comments, things that take no more than 10 seconds to discover are false, never offer anything to support them (because there isn’t anything to support them), and ignore replies.
There’s no “light” in your comment — just an oozing pile of typed cow pies. Nobody would call carlson anything other than what he is: a racist, a bigot, a liar, a white supremacist — just purely an evil person. Rather like you seem to be.
Way to bury the lede, you intellectual chub†.
† Thick and Stunted
“Fascism also hates anything it perceives as the feminization of men, including homosexuality and, especially, transgender people. That makes it no surprise that Tucker Carlson is using his documentary series to promote transphobia.”
Dorit, how do you yourself “perceive the feminization of men, including homosexuality and, especially, transgender people”?
Do you see these phenomena anywhere else in nature? Why not?
What in your opinion would be the underlying agenda of all this trumpeting of ‘inclusion’ we are literally bombarded with nowadays? Why do you parrot?
Then you bring up nazism. A truly pernicious movement indeed. Would you characterise nazism as an ultra right or ultra left ideology?
Let me help you. Nazi stands for ‘Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei’. A Nazi was a member of the National Socialist German Workers’ Party. Is a socialist per definition ‘left’ or ‘right’ oriented? And what about this so called “Worker’s Party”, does that even smell ‘right’?
Doris, the Nazis were 100 percent leftist humanity criminals and this not just in the naming. Just like you today are clearly a leftist. And I’m sorry to conclude that under your skin you are as hateful as a Nazi woman was back then, polluted with largely the same unsavoury brainwashing ideology, just in a different guise.
Listen Dorit, per definition anyone that is not neutral – neither right or left that is – is a danger to society and a danger to him- or herself (apologies for all the genders I haven’t mentioned). All it leads to is division, hate, moral decline, war and destruction. Are you sure you want to be on a side and thus be the cause of that?
Now Dorit, I have a little assignment for you. Make for yourself a list of the many similarities between all the starting points and policies of national socialism (do include fascism and communism in practice as well) on the one hand and those of the UN, the WEF and of our leftist puppet governments on the other. Perhaps that will wake you up. You might realise that history has started to repeat itself.
Only this time it will have a different ending; if you value your life you’d better start with a deep self investigation and start with these unpopular characteristics: love and honesty.
“Do you see these phenomena anywhere else in nature?”
Hmmm. Actually, yes. To varying degrees, from sex to companionship.
You’d be hard put to tell Nazi or fascist ideals of racial purity and sexuality from today’s extreme right in America. So calling them left wing ideologies is just burying your head in the sand, whatever the nomenclature.
PEARL CLUTCHING raised to 100
You are not quoting Dorit, you are quoting Orac. You seem to be a bit mixed up, but that is what the words “By Orac” mean.
And no one will take “orders” by someone who cannot figure out who wrote the above hilarious article, silly boy. Did you buy yourself the fancy light for your dangley bits?
Homosexuality is actually common in nature.
Nazis crushed trade unions, banned cooperatives and leftist parties and allowed bosses run businesses as they wished (Fuhrer principle), Is this letoist ideologue ?
All leftist parts of party program were jettisoned 1933, Hitler raised lots of money from big businesses to get elected,
“What statistics? You didn’t prove spit. All you did was make a bunch of claims that were refuted.”
This is not true. The proof is clearly there. So instead of useless words you are free to proof these scientists otherwise. Which basically means you have to fight the official data regarding excess mortality, deaths under the vaccinated and unvaccinated, date of the rollouts of these vaccination rounds, date of death etc. Go ahead, I’m listening.
Tell me, why are you supporting this scam anyway?
I have not seen any such official statistics. Can you cite an example
“Can you cite an example”
Good look. lucas’ operating procedure has always been to say “the information is out there. go find it.”
“Did you buy the device from Tucker Carlson to increase your virility?”
I don’t care about Mr. Carlson nor his words. And you?
Only as a clown to laugh at. Just like how I think of you.
Plus he is an anti-American traitor as he admires dictators like Viktor Orban. He, like you, also failed both American history and government/civics classes in high school.
Nice to see you, Chris.
😉 Thank you.
“lucas, you repeatedly lied about the number of deaths from vaccines. You repeatedly lied about some nebulous conspiracy that was going to victimize us. You repeatedly lied about “moral decline”. It’s becoming more and more clear that you lied when you claimed to be n economist, a developer, an expert in data analysis, as it’s clear you don’t have a good god-damn bit of education to your name, as you claim fascism is a left-wing thing.”
Ha, you again.
First: when will you ever learn the difference between a lie and an opinion?
Second: it’s not my lie as I have so often tried to make you understand. It’s just official data processed by third party statisticians. I’m still waiting for you to attack these statisticians and the underlying official data. Fact is you don’t have a damn clue, do you?
Third: if you still haven’t noticed a plain conspiracy going on, you’re dumm and deemed. My advice: start reading what matters. Begin with the websites of your policy makers.
Fourth: I am an economist, I am an analist. But you on the other hand have no idea what you’re talking about. Why don’t you come over to Europe and talk to the people that lived through this fascist period to begin with. They are still around, but don’t wait to long or you’ll only have your leftist propaganda telling you ‘the truth’. That will be enough already for you to find out that fascism is a ‘left-wing thing’. Just like nazism is, as your Roderick Stackelberg calls it “a radical variant of fascism”. Both left, both ugly.
Lw56old, don’t believe in wet dream propaganda. It just isn’t conform reality.
“”An authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government and social organization.”
“Those are not long explanations, obviously, just two quick notes that your little vomiting of garbage above are monumentally wrong. (And, as you demonstrated when there were repeated postings of articles and research showing your assertions about vaccines and deaths to be bogus, it’s a certainty you’d pay no attention to details and historical fact anyway.”
Leftist ‘Oxford online’ is almost correct. Just change the word “right” into left and you’re there. Like I said you fall for propaganda and lies (which btw only means that you’re a liar). I guess you’re the type that has complete confidence in what the media bring you as well. My advice: start some critical thinking.
“never offer anything to support them”
Says someone that curses his way out when it gets hot. I can easily back that up. And I might if Dorit still has no clue and asks me for help.
“” But seen in this light, would you call Tucker a leftist?”
There’s no “light” in your comment — just an oozing pile of typed cow pies. Nobody would call carlson anything other than what he is: a racist, a bigot, a liar, a white supremacist — just purely an evil person. Rather like you seem to be.”
Whether he is evil or not is not relevant for the discussion. Question was whether or not Tucker is a leftist given the underlying statement that fascism is far left. Why don’t you give your reasons for fascism to be far right?
Like I said your friend Roderick Stackelberg says Nazism is “a radical variant of fascism”. Tell me then, how on earth do we see Fascism make that swing from ultra left Nazism to ultra right, when it is so related, a variant in fact? Weird, isn’t it?
lucas, nobody should be a bit surprised that you spread the “nazis were left wing because of the word socialist” crap. Your stupidity and lack of knowledge have both long been established by your previous posts.
On the off chance that you might read something that has big words in it:
A few high points.
So socialist thought was on its way out in 1930.
So the socialists and communists were eradicated.
Yup, only a fool (like you) still identifies nazis as socialist.
For your other bullshit:
“It’s just official data processed by third party statisticians.”
No, it is not. And it is not the job of anyone else here to look for them anyway: you claim they are there, it’s your duty to provide links.
Then there is this, where you self-identify yourself as being just as ignorant of biology as you are every other topic you comment on.
“how do you yourself “perceive the feminization of men, including homosexuality and, especially, transgender people”?
It’s certainly a good thing “feminization of men” isn’t a thing in reality. It’s sad that it is a thing in the minds of right-wing conspiracy spouting dicks like you.
“Do you see these phenomena anywhere else in nature? Why not?”
Well yes — try doing some research. (I laugh: it’s clear you’ve never done a bit of research in your life.)
Then there’s this (deserving of a blockquote to highlight your self-outing as a racist)
Yeah, why should people of different “races” be allowed rights?
All of these comments of yours continue to pile up evidence of what an awful person you are: willing to lie about vaccines and their safety in spite of the data that shows you’re wrong, completely ignorant of historical facts, a conspiracy monger, bigot, and more. Right now I’m putting the probability you really believe nazis were terrible people at below 30%.
” “It’s just official data processed by third party statisticians.”
No, it is not. And it is not the job of anyone else here to look for them anyway: you claim they are there, it’s your duty to provide links. ”
If it’s the one I think it is, the third party was actually a group of computer science faculty in UK and Israel.
“Tell me then, how on earth do we see Fascism make that swing from ultra left Nazism to ultra right, when it is so related, a variant in fact? Weird, isn’t it?”
False premise: neither fascism nor nazism were left-wing movements when they gained power.
If “Fascism” is left-wing, then what is communism?
These trolls can’t keep their ideologies straight.
“If “Fascism” is left-wing, then what is communism?”
A very flawed economic model. It only works in special cases, but requires an authoritative governing model. It worked in the Panama Canal Zone prior to 1979 where everything was run by the Panama Canal Company, which was run by the US Army Corps of Engineers. Which is why until 1979 the governors of the Canal Zone were often Army officers. See this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panama_Canal_Zone#Governance
I lived there during 8th, 9th and 10th grade. It was an interesting education, especially in institutional racism. And what is was like to live in a country (Panama) with a dictator: Omar Torrijos (though Manuel Noriega’s Guardia Nacional murdered my 10th grade chemistry teacher years later, Ray Dragseth).
It even failed in Russia, which had an authoritative government. It ceased to have a communism economy when it collapsed in the 1990s. Because it is still an authoritative government, it has devolved into a corrupt kleptocracy. With Tucker Carlson cheering them on.
This entire premise is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. It’s wronger than wrong. Nazi-ism was not “ultra left.” Indeed, whatever residual socialist elements were left in the Nazi party, which had been already getting rid of any socialist ideas, were quite thoroughly extirpated through the violent purge known as the Night of the Long Knives in 1934.
You are indeed an analist. What is that data from third party statisticans ? Did ou know that fascists had Fuhrer prnciple for corporations, too ? Not a leftist idea
“Hmmm. Actually, yes. To varying degrees, from sex to companionship.”
Go ahead, I’m listening.
“You’d be hard put to tell Nazi or fascist ideals of racial purity and sexuality from today’s extreme right in America.”
Aside from the fact that there are differences for sure, basically you’re not all so wrong here. So what conclusion would you draw (just) based on these two similarities (let’s not talk about the many differences)? That the Nazi’s had an extreme right ideology or that your extreme right is in fact extreme left in this respect?
What traits belonged to the left in those days, what to the right and how about today? Is in your opinion right wrong and left correct?
Is it wise to choose a side you think?
PEARL CLUTCHING raised to 100”
Which says so much about yourself.
“Go ahead, I’m listening.”
Well, there’s a start for you. If it really interests you, then I’m sure you’re capable of delving deeper. It’ll give you something else to worry about.
“”PEARL CLUTCHING raised to 100”
Which says so much about yourself”
Yes. Yes it does. That arrow to the knee still stings when the weather changes.
““Tell me then, how on earth do we see Fascism make that swing from ultra left Nazism to ultra right, when it is so related, a variant in fact? Weird, isn’t it?”
False premise: neither fascism nor nazism were left-wing movements when they gained power.”
So my friend, you try to rewrite history?
Aren’t you guys perhaps a tiny little bit brainwashed? You feel so superior in that ‘Gutmensch’ mentality of yours that when a clear leftwing movement shows its cruel side – like all of these left wing movements have btw – you are so conceited and have the guts to change the word left for right. Horrible, stupid and dangerous.
Not rewriting history at all. The fact that you are an uneducated buffoon is your fault, not ours.
I’m centre-right. I do tend to oppose left ideas very much. I do identify authoritarian tendencies in them. Some of them are akin to fascism.
I also recognise the existence of a crossover between far left and far right.
BUT nazism ceased to have serious connections with left wing ideologies when it seized power.
It kept instrumentalising some of the far left grudges, though.
But that doesn’t change the fact that you’re wrong and the type of person that attempts to draw false equivalences. Just like the russians nowadays who keep claiming that they were so pure in WW2, notwithstanding the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact among many other ugly things.
You are the type of people busy with truth massaging that ultimately paves the way for catastrophic events with lies, semi-lies, white lies, truth massaging, selective denial and all the cognitive shit-biases that forbid you to think clearly about issues with significant moral stakes.
@F68: “You are the type of people busy with truth massaging that ultimately paves the way for catastrophic events with lies, semi-lies, white lies, truth massaging, selective denial and all the cognitive shit-biases that forbid you to think clearly about issues with significant moral stakes.”
Yeah, it knows exactly what it is and what it’s doing it for. Because while it might not have the stones to machete its neighbors itself, it is happy to enable those who will.
“I am an analist.”
That explains the constricted view.
@DB, you magnificent bastard.
And due credit to Lucas, for one nugget of gold amongst all of its feces.
@ Monsieur F:
Thank you so much for showing me your work although most of it is WAY above my head. I was encouraged by teachers/ professors to study mathematics but didn’t do all that much beyond several undergrad and grad courses but other students always sought me out to tutor them. I turned down a job offer by a prof for an educational testing service ( because of other obligations and interests).
I don’t know how to further your explorations ( publishing/ dissertation possibilities) but perhaps someone else here may have ideas for you ( Narad? Mathematicians? writers?) You never know, diverse people assemble here. Can you self-publish? Of course, not in crappy journals a la MJD but something more substantial? I don’t know how this works in Europe.
About your gastric condition: sometimes your have to be your own physician. Notice what makes you worse or better. Believe it or not, I am the person least likely to go to a doctor unless I have trouble breathing or some other frightening symptoms. Haven’t died yet**. I know that many readers here may find that poor advice but you are after all, an adult and smart as hell already avoiding doctors. A funny story: a veterinarian in his late 80s lived nearby. I had to speak to him about my cat and he informed me that he believed he had had a stroke a few days earlier. He self-treated with blood thinners and BP meds IIRC. I’m not sure if he used human meds or pet meds but he survived quite well. He cared for pets and also worked for a nearby horse racing track. No Ivermecton AFAIK though.
The French election is being covered by news outlets in detail: I think that people are afraid of Le Pen winning especially in light of the war in Ukraine.
** I also had to monitor the health of seriously ill relatives so I know when to be scared
@ Denice Walter
“I don’t know how to further your explorations ( publishing/ dissertation possibilities) but perhaps someone else here may have ideas for you ( Narad? Mathematicians? writers?)”
Well, I’d need someone, an academic, that would keep me on track for what is admissible when it comes to publication. Otherwise, I’ll work on my own and things that could be publishable will become all and more esoteric and hence unpublishable because I have no feedback to correct course and aim.
The result I have proved did manage to raise some interest among some topos and category theorists. But I haven’t been able to get them to commit to some kind of guidance. So I’m putting all that on hold until I find one such good soul. As of know, any further work I’d do would be work without a proper goal or method in mind. Would be counterproductive: If people cannot be bothered to read, I’m working in vain, not knowing where the goalposts really are.
“Of course, not in crappy journals a la MJD but something more substantial? I don’t know how this works in Europe.”
I can’t afford to pay for peer review in my situation. In the end, I do not know at which door I should knock. I tried some more amateur journals, but they said they were incompentent to judge my work and told me to look at more specialised journals. But back to main problem: I have no clue as to how such a paper should be presented, and I’m tired of walking into booby-trapped territory without a map.
“The French election is being covered by news outlets in detail: I think that people are afraid of Le Pen winning especially in light of the war in Ukraine.”
The fact that 42 % of the french voted for someone who said she’d rape the constitution first thing in the morning by using article 11 of the constitution to change it (you can’t, even if de Gaulle did it: it’s not constitutional) instead of using article 89 (the proper way to do things, unfortunately with our &%!/&?§ Senate being hostile to any loss of power of our rigged-by-design representative democracy in favour of more direct forms of democracy) is completely dumbfounding and maddening. I hope that this will be a warning call for the right (not the far right) that holds the Senate that it’s time to understand they should stop blocking any constitutional reform under the pretense that the State is the Elite (yeah… scientists and academics are not elite here, but are mere janitors and pompous ones at that) and that the People are Dumb and Dumber. If they do not now feel the whiff of the canonball, it will one day hit them in the face. In 5 years, perhaps. I’m honestly not optimistic at all: the regular right and regular left predicated the health of democracy on the notion of neverending conflict among the “elite” as some kind of a theater where people are only allowed to clap and boo but not have a say. And they took things for granted for too long. Macron overturned that 5 years ago and wiped them out to make an attempt at reinventing the game. Now remains only far right and far left at national level (Senate, which guards the constitution, is elected more locally, and the regular right still holds it). If our institutions do not allow more direct and decentralised participation, anger will build up, and extremists will end up winning. It’s a no brainer, except for the French who have all the wrong reflexes on such matters by ideology. But direct participation would mean ending these theatrics of conflict to which the French and their elites are addicted. That addiction will be their doom: they like their rigged semi-authoritarian system too much. But I hope they are now beginning to feel the heat, and will start to move their feet. Unlikely, though. The madness will likely prevail. Even Macron complains about it, but the Senate pushes back, as always. Which is why I believe the regular right must be crushed even further than the ridiculous 5 % of votes it got in the first round.
Glad Macron got elected. Sad our democracy is infantilising by design, though. It’s really disappointing by design, and everyone knows it. Add islam and a french culture of grumpy bad faith and bad mouthing on top of that, and it gets explosive.
And yeah: nazi Le Pen hopes that nazi Putin is going to come to France to kill the nazi arabs and nazi gays for them after having killed the nazi ukrainians. As the non-far-right doesn’t want them to kill arabs and gays at home, they put their faith in Putin and its christian values to finally get the job done. Christian values, my foot… These people live in a very ugly la la land…
@ Monsieur F:
Your work is important for many reasons, I’m glad you continue.
On the election:
the moderate and liberal news channels I watch covered the election in great detail all week and were ecstatic that Macron won, showing the celebration and interviewing attendees there. With the war in Ukraine, France has become more important to them. I didn’t follow the rightie news channels though yesterday.
About the future:
who knows? After all, people voted for Brexit and Trump. Look how those turned out.
But I fear that the US will eventually become a latter day Yugoslavia – a loose confederation of mismatched regions with differing goals and guiding principles. Because I follow trends, I have to say that parts of the US scare me a little. Two podcasters at a Trump event ( shown on news) asked participants if an election held tomorrow featured Biden vs Putin, whom would they prefer. They answered Putin: people of all ages, male, female, all white ( Ohio). The interviewers might have been very biased in their selection of subjects and their editing but still… Putin?
When I watch right wing polemicists speak, talking about their enemies, I realise that I am what they rail against: i don’t fit their stereotypes for women, I’m “over educated”, based in and around a large CITY, more accepting of diverse people and lifestyles,
think rich people should be taxed more, corporations shouldn’t have free rein in every matter, don’t live in a gated community of McMansions, have no children etc.
When Trump was elected some liberal states tried to pre-empt his policies such as lowering federal income tax deductions for property and state taxes ( Blue states generally pay higher property and state taxes) and ways to protect abortion rights in case Roe vs Wade were overturned. Liberal states also reacted to state laws like “Don’t Say Gay” and against CRT** recently.
HOWEVER, if you think about it, the US has always been divided since its inception, its eventual civil war and civil rights era but they didn’t have the internet and extremely dedicated political television.
** which isn’t a primary school matter anyway as it is taught in law school.
I’ve diagnosed three older men this year with metastatic prostate cancer. The common denominator? None had been to a doctor in decades and all were ignoring symptoms. “I’m healthy; I’m only here because my wife made me.”
There are better ways to sensitise people to the need to see doctors than manhunts. I kind of do not really want to talk to people who behave that way.
I’m fine with metastatic prostate cancer. Not a reason for me to see a doctor.
Cut me a leg off, and I still won’t see a doctor.
“”Like I said your friend Roderick Stackelberg says Nazism is “a radical variant of fascism”. Tell me then, how on earth do we see Fascism make that swing from ultra left Nazism to ultra right, when it is so related, a variant in fact? Weird, isn’t it?”
This entire premise is wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong. It’s wronger than wrong. Nazi-ism was not “ultra left.” Indeed, whatever residual socialist elements were left in the Nazi party, which had been already getting rid of any socialist ideas, were quite thoroughly extirpated through the violent purge known as the Night of the Long Knives in 1934.”
Orac, how much do you know, except for some book knowledge of left wing writers that even seem to work in your disadvantage? You’re all so unexperienced and far away from where these left-wing movements have left their scars, both in time and location. You seem to know it all, but you don’t.
So Nazism wasn’t ultra left? Please realise that your verdict partly depends on the definition. And since you don’t give a / the / your definition, your statement is a bit meaningless.
I give you some motivated reasons for the extreme left classification of Nazism. And if you wish, you give me yours for the opposite.
For you I have the same remark as for ldw56old: when a clear leftwing movement shows its cruel side – like all of these left wing movements have in history – you have the inpertinent guts to change the word left into right: the socialist party suddenly is a right-wing party. This is rediculous (nevertheless typical leftist) reasoning. In fact it implies that such thing as a socialist party is no more then an utopian dream. No Orac, you had better take responsibility for the usual crimes of these socialists in case you consider yourself one. In its true meaning: socialist parties don’t exist, never have and never will.
Some historical context. Because of a more or less similar situation we’re facing today, Wall Street crashed in 1929 and the US and Europe sank into a deep depression. The resulting economic turmoil led to an increased popularity of extremist political parties, such as the Nazi and Communist parties in Germany.
As an ex soldier in WW-1, frontline soldier Hitler felt the humiliation of losing the war and the resulting Treaty of Versailles. His service in the army in 1919 appears to have shaped his commitment to an antisemitism based on social Darwinist race-theory and the establishment of a unifying nationalism founded on the need to combat the external and internal power of the Jews. As opposed to right-wing thinking, atheïstic Darwinistic thinking definately fits more the left- then the right-wing. This means that the following persecution of Jews based on those teachings has left-wing roots. Definately a ‘survival of the fittest’ way of thinking amongst humans is threatening to minority groups and is of course anti-social. It has cost the lives of millions.
Of course the Catholic church has played a very dubious role in this as well, as it used Hitler as a straw man for its fascination of a 1000 year reign, not to mention the proponent role concerning the persecution of Jews. Depending on the classifcation of the Church and its followers we may have a kind of a mixed bag here (like it usually is).
Don’t be so shortsighted as to just look at the political party in command. Definately the question to add is who were its supporters. The world was in the midst of the worst economic crisis of all time and this was partly caused by unfettered capitalism; however both the left and right lived beyond their means (just like now many live in excess and again both left and right speculate like the stock market will continue to rise forever) and are in that respect both responsible for the depression that followed the 1929 crash. But as such, people flocked to socialist parties and parties with socialist ideas as a counterpoint to what happened. In short, the voters / followers can therefore be qualified as socialists. As such these socialists (leftists) were co-responsible for the following Nazi crimes. Add to this that many socialists were nationalists as well. Also after WW-1 nationalism played a major role in the rise of Hitler’s national socialism. The situation became increasingly dangerous because of its extreme form. These socialist nationalists were thus co responsible for the Nazi’s atrocities.
Fascism basically is a very collectivist ideology. Nazism even uses socialism to describe itself. This is another ground to mark both movements as left and socialist.
Often the contrast between collectivism and individualism is regarded as the distinction between left and right. Collectivism is typical left, while individualism is typical right. From that perspective the extreme collectivist fascism and nazism is a typical left ideology. In both movements subordination of personal desires and interests to the national community was required.
More or less state intervention is another indicator used to determine left or right ideology. Frequent state intervention in an economic sense is characterised as left policy. Right policy means less market intervention. The Nazi system was a combination of some of the characteristics of capitalism and a highly planned economy. The abolition of the traditional system of autonomous markets in which demand and supply meet, coordinating the economic activities of millions of individuals however definately characterises as left policy. The Nazi government substituted conscious, over-all direction of the economy for the autonomy of the market mechanism and subordinated the economic system to a predetermined objective, the creation of a war machine. A vast network of organizations was erected to embrace individuals, corporations, manufacturers, farmers, dealers, small business and large business – in short, every factor of production, distribution and consumption. By dominating this organizational structure through which orders could be issued to every businessman, and by insisting upon strict obedience from all, the government obtained complete control over the economy. Commodity prices, interest rates, and wages were not only fixed by the government, but they lost completely their traditional significance as regulators of economic activities. The government decided and ordered what and how much should be invested, produced, distributed, consumed, or stored. All typical left policy.
All this government influence of course goes at the cost of individual freedom and has so often resulted in tyranny. Too much of such meddling has never worked in practice as it disturbs markets. Not that capitalism hasn’t disturbed markets. Ruining short term solutions are typical for capitalism. Selfish human nature is typical for both capitalist and socialist systems. However, socialist systems have turned out far more threatening and dangerous to the individual and have frequently led to pure misery.
The rise of socialism we see in the West now is a much bigger threat then most realise. Look at history, look at human nature and you should know this is very true. And with both parents as war victims I can only tell you that you don’t have a damn clue what you wish for if you go down the rabbit hole of socialism in one of its variants. I would advice you to stay neutral and never choose sides anyway.
“The rise of socialism we see in the West”
We’re not seeing a rise of socialism you ignorant dick.
@ldw56old: “We’re not seeing a rise of socialism you ignorant dick.”
Try to imagine it from Lucas’s perspective: what he sees rising is most likely piles.
Nazis did jettison all leftist points very easily, they were just propaganda, Thyssen wrote book I paid Hitler, actually.
Communism is totalitarian left. Compare Stalin’s economic policy with Hitler’s. Quite a difference. Both did share some totalitarian techniques, like mass mobilisation.
Stalin did not accept social darwinism. of course. He killed imaginary class enemies, not people unfit to life.
Yep. I’m so tired of the same “liberal fascism” nonsense that I have zero patience for people bringing such ahistorical bullshit into my comment section.
It’s almost as if Fascists lie to get what they want! Who knew?!
“BUT nazism ceased to have serious connections with left wing ideologies when it seized power.”
Agree. But that’s not my point. The rise of a large authoritarian movement gradually taking away freedom, is. It’s going full speed ahead and many brainwashed morons here even seem to support it.
Like I’ve said many times now, a period of chaos will follow when the situation gets out of hand and a so called solution is exclaimed. Death and destruction follows somewhat later. It is even your own choice if you support the current trend.
I’m sorry, this is the future, live with it or act.
“You are the type of people busy with truth massaging that ultimately paves the way for catastrophic events with lies, semi-lies, white lies, truth massaging, selective denial and all the cognitive shit-biases that forbid you to think clearly about issues with significant moral stakes.”
We will definately see catastrophic events. In January I predicted war and chaos. Meanwhile you have your war, super powers fighting a proxy war; unilateral vs multilateral.
And relax, chaos is not here yet. It will be further ahead and it’s unavoidable. My advice is to stay away from any political system.
And for sure I think clearly. That’s why I’m relaxed. I’m afraid you will loose control at a given point.
And here we see the vague rantings of the loon lucas: never provides facts, never gives references, claims he was correct in predicting things that happened before he said anything about them, is patently dishonest about history — yet claims to have been trained as an economist and (this is great) analist, which apparently allows him to lie about covid vaccine deaths.
“The rise of a large authoritarian movement gradually taking away freedom, is. It’s going full speed ahead and many brainwashed morons here even seem to support it.”
Agreed. It’s called Q-Anon nonsense and anti-science obscurantism.
Many brainwashed morons indeed often do drop by on this blog to push their reality-denialism as a stepping stone towards tyranny by means of ideological hallucination in the form of perversion of democracy into mob rule by Juggalos like Trump. Or in the form of a homosexual worship of a drug addict like Putin.
In France, these Juggalos amount to 42 % of the voting population.
42 % of the French voted for a coup, technically.
N.B.: as long as your left wing recognises the 1st amendment and recognises vote as a way to legitimise political decision making, it remains democratic, no matter how socialist it may look to you. Keep in mind that communism cannot tolerate 1st amendment as it destroys the very possibility of a state governed economy. As long as 1st amendment is upheld, your left remains democratic and cannot be soviet. Period.
N.B.2.: not being forced into vaccination is not a human right.
““The rise of socialism we see in the West”
We’re not seeing a rise of socialism you ignorant dick.”
While no single definition encapsulates the many types of socialism, it is the (so-called) collective that has the highest decision-making authority over the distribution of power and goods. Exactly this is the chosen path. Translated: you’ll loose and some gain. Label it differently, who gives a damn. It’s authoritarian for sure. I tend to call it socialism but I’m in for another term; you choose the container term. But that you’re so blind that you don’t have a clue about what’s going on, is the reason it is going on. Ignorant fool!
Actually socialism is state ownership and/or command economy. it is strongly against bourgeous nationalism and for proletarian internatiolism
@ Aarno Syvänen
“Actually socialism is state ownership and/or command economy. it is strongly against bourgeous nationalism and for proletarian internatiolism.”
Did you read George Kennan’s long telegram ? It paints a very different picture of communism…
F68.10 Communism is a separate thing. Russian nationalism is OK, bourgeous nationalism applies to only to other nations. Proletarian internationalism means obeying Moscow without question.
Socialists were actual internationalists. Remember Jean Jaures. He belonged to French Section of Workers International, a name that says a lot.
@ Aarno Syvänen
“Communism is a separate thing.”
“Russian nationalism is OK, bourgeous nationalism applies to only to other nations. Proletarian internationalism means obeying Moscow without question.”
Yeah. Well, no.
“Socialists were actual internationalists. Remember Jean Jaures. He belonged to French Section of Workers International, a name that says a lot.”
Socialists were internationalists. And not all were subordinate to Moscow. As long as they pushed their case within constitutional limits, their internationalism was OK. As soon as they pushed in alternative ways, their internationalism was not OK.
I am starting to have 0 tolerance to communistic nonsense when it backs up russian nationalism and utterly disregards truth and free speech by conceptualising these notions as mere weapons in a fight for world domination. They’re not.
1945 was only a truce. Not peace.
Well, there’s a start for you. If it really interests you, then I’m sure you’re capable of delving deeper. It’ll give you something else to worry about.”
First read, then conclude: “Thus, a homosexual orientation, if one can speak of such thing in animals, seems to be a rarity.” The motivations for and implications of these behaviors have yet to be fully understood.”
I.o.w.: we don’t understand these behaviours but for the sake of the case we desperately need that conclusion.
Please quit the nonsense.
However, homosexual behaviours exist in nature. Motivations are irrelevant. You can hardly claim that human sexuality is fully understood either. Your original statement made no assertion that animals had to have a fulfilling emotional life with a same sex partner. Therefore you were wrong.
Konrad Lorenz long ago documented same sex pairs of geese. It might even ultimately show a reproductive advantage as males enjoy a higher social position in general and TWO ‘gay’ males can also mate with solitary females AS WELL AS keeping their long term male partners.
Mind you. I’m never turning my back on a mallard.
The proper response when you ask for information and someone supplies it, is “Thank you!” not “AHH! A fact. Maybe if I scream, it will go away!”
You asked for evidence of homosexual behavior and are for some reason incapable of finding it yourself. NumberWang kindly helped you out. Were you hoping he wouldn’t? Your urges are not unknown in the animal kingdom. Please find happiness in that fact.
“However, homosexual behaviours exist in nature. Motivations are irrelevant. You can hardly claim that human sexuality is fully understood either. Your original statement made no assertion that animals had to have a fulfilling emotional life with a same sex partner. Therefore you were wrong.”
Again please read what your own link has to say: ““Thus, a homosexual orientation, IF ONE CAN SPEAK OF SUCH THINGS IN ANIMALS, seems to be a rarity.” The motivations for and implications of these behaviors have YET TO BE FULLY UNDERSTOOD.”
Apparently you understand such rarities?
You apparently can speak of homosexuality in animals?
Anyway, your source cannot.
Does such far-fetched nonsense really not make you smile?
“And Tango Makes Three”.
Homosexuality has been observed in nature and in zoos (see the book title referenced above).
Look, we get it. You are a reactionary, angry old man who wants desperately to go back to the war-torn Europe of your youth.
You have yet to provide a citation for any of your nonsense. You have no data, no understanding of history or current events, no grounding in science and no curiosity. You are simply here to yell, like an old man yelling at a cloud.
This looks to be at your reading level:
Great minds think alike!
@ Chris and JustaTech:
What would you expect anyway: those penguins live in NYC!
-btw- observation shows that many species not in captivity engage in short term opportunistic same sex activities as well as long term partnerships : not just birds but lions and other mammals.
@Denice Walter @ Chris @JustaTech
“What would you expect anyway: those penguins live in NYC! -btw- observation shows that many species not in captivity engage in short term opportunistic same sex activities as well as long term partnerships : not just birds but lions and other mammals.”
Honestly, let’s not talk about penguin sex. It’s more than gross.
“Many brainwashed morons indeed often do drop by on this blog to push their reality-denialism as a stepping stone towards tyranny by means of ideological hallucination in the form of perversion of democracy into mob rule by Juggalos like Trump. Or in the form of a homosexual worship of a drug addict like Putin.”
Not that democracies exist, but agreed that something similar might be the least harmful.
“N.B.: as long as your left wing recognises the 1st amendment and recognises vote as a way to legitimise political decision making, it remains democratic, no matter how socialist it may look to you. Keep in mind that communism cannot tolerate 1st amendment as it destroys the very possibility of a state governed economy. As long as 1st amendment is upheld, your left remains democratic and cannot be soviet. Period.”
We don’t have that many amendments over here, but I’m almost sure that similar fundamental rights may disappear overnight. Nothing unusual.
“N.B.2.: not being forced into vaccination is not a human right.”
It keeps on raining authoritarianism here.
“It keeps on raining authoritarianism here.”
Authoritarianism ? No. I’m french. We cannot be authoritarian. As soon as we’d elect a dictator, we go from coup to coup like in the 19th century just for kicks. If “coup d’Etat” is a french words loaned to english, it’s not for nothing: it’s because we fetishise disunity as a vaccine against authoritarianism:
“I am French and I love my country; if by “unite” you mean to bring all the people to think the same, it is a complete illusion. This is a country with tens of thousands of little towns and villages. A country where in a village of 300 inhabitants, 6 people at the town council can have a row at how to organize the next village party. This the country where 1 citizen out of 10 is a president of any sort of association and the rest are deputies. This is a country where politics is the national sport. No one agrees with their neighbour and we love it. We abide by democracy but the day after the election we will run into a riot and have a fight with the CRS [half-militarised cops]. I love my country. Unity is for dictatorships.” — F. Sandelia
More seriously: Vaccination is public health policy. Contrarily to most medical acts that impact only your person, the stakes of vaccination are sufficient for its benefits to outweigh alleged human rights violation. Vaccination should not IMO be decided in purely techno-scientific bureaucratic fashion. IMO, it should always be backed by explicit democratic decisions. If you deny the right of government to make such decisions democratically, you are curtailing my right to deliberate an enact in a democratic fashion. You are taking away the liberty of my people to decide of its fate and its way forward. This indeed is a collective liberty, which we call the Will of the People (though I do not like the expression) and not an individual one. But, hey, not everywhere is Texas !! and this collective liberty does not impinge that much on individual liberty except if you got your mind wired upside down by the antiscience crowd.
“Not that democracies exist, but agreed that something similar might be the least harmful.”
Democracies exist. Of course they do. Ever witnessed a Landsgemeinde like in Glarus ?
“This looks to be at your reading level:
Still trying to humanize…
“Konrad Lorenz long ago documented same sex pairs of geese. It might even ultimately show a reproductive advantage as males enjoy a higher social position in general and TWO ‘gay’ males can also mate with solitary females AS WELL AS keeping their long term male partners.”
Wishful thinking for a human cause.
Well now. It’s your turn to show your character in your comments.
I think you are likely to be one of those people who don’t believe animals feel pain or any real emotions. You probably feel that it just ‘looks like emotion’ but is actually a machine-like emulation. This is why you can accept same sex activity in animals but not in humans, they’re just dumb biological machines with faulty programming eh? Hmm, does that mean that you think that humans ‘choose’ their sexuality then? I bet it does.
Leading on from this, I bet you are against all that lefty environmentalism and animal welfare too?
So we have almost comments disusing whether the Nazi part was socialist and homosexuality in nature, as opposed to the (lack of) science behind heating up your privet parts (https://gidmk.medium.com/testicle-tanning-and-red-light-therapy-34c109fe44c1)
“Well now. It’s your turn to show your character in your comments.”
Seriously? From the beginning here I’ve always “showed my character in my comments”. I have nothing to hide; unlike the slippery roads many here choose to walk on. I guess that when dishonesty was a disease some here would never leave hospital.
“I think you are likely to be one of those people who don’t believe animals feel pain or any real emotions. You probably feel that it just ‘looks like emotion’ but is actually a machine-like emulation. This is why you can accept same sex activity in animals but not in humans, they’re just dumb biological machines with faulty programming eh? Hmm, does that mean that you think that humans ‘choose’ their sexuality then? I bet it does.”
Do animals feel pain or emotion? Of course they do. Otherwise we wouldn’t notice they react to it. I think you mean to ask whether they suffer from pain. As far as I know nobody knows for sure. Since animals lack consciousness, perhaps not; at least I hope they don’t, as I absolutely hate suffering in both humans and animals.
Let me reassure you: I love animals and treat them with the respect they ask for (with mosquitos as an exception). Next I love my cat that 12 years ago chose her residence here. And wherever an animal is in pain I change plans and take it to First Aid. And of course I kill and bury a myxomatosis rabbit out of animal love, however it’s awful to execute.
I don’t think animal emotion is a machine-like emulation. I guess it is real and is more then just instinctive behaviour, to proof this is another matter.
The rare same sex behaviour in animals will have nothing to do with homosexuality. From your Darwinian perspective it makes no sense either.
About homosexuality in humans you missed my point.
Some background. In some areas of design the percentage of homosexuals is relatively high; as a result as a designer I co-operated with quite a few of them and it has in general been a plessure to work with them (originality, quality of work, smooth co-operation) and some I consider my friends. So from that perspective alone please don’t try and push me in a homo hate corner; I don’t belong there.
I remember one of these guys telling me he hoped that one day the “wires in his head would be connected in the right way”. Personally I don’t think there is any deviation with this man as I don’t consider him to be a born homosexual; I guess that his preference is more environment driven (like his dominant mother as one possible contributing factor). Nevertheless I’m almost sure that there is a group of born homosexual men (let’s not talk females with often masculin features in both face and body); partly because of a typical fenotypical similarity in this group that I’ve observed over and over again; IMHO this is genetically defined; perhaps – and I say so without a desire to discriminate – a mutant gene may be responsible. Do take this thesis with a grain of salt, I simply don’t know. I wouldn’t know how anyone in that group could change his sexual preference; it would be like changing mine, which would neither work either. And to answer your question directly, the latter in particular don’t choose their sexuality.
My point however is all this excessive promoting of institutes that misuse these groups and even stimulate this behaviour (LHBT.. XYZ). All for leftist political intentions. That’s what is sickening!
And I’m sure there is another motive behind this ‘propaganda’ flooding other then just political gain. I’m positive it is to provoke the creator who made man and woman as such, as well as to push people into accepting behaviour that is unnatural. This does not originate from humans IMO with disruption as a purpose. And it has worked, like before in history.
This all doesn’t mean anyone is allowed to judge someone’s orientation he or she is not responsible for. That’s an entirely different subject however.
“Leading on from this, I bet you are against all that lefty environmentalism and animal welfare too?”
Answer: NOT AT ALL. We all live on this planet and it was clearly made for us as such. Anyone deliberately polluting (we all do btw, but you know what I mean) and misusing this planet isn’t worth life. Period. Especially the ‘right’ seems to care less. Fools.
When I was young I worked at an environmental department for our government for a couple of years. Almost no one gave a damn about the pressure of waste in even their own environment. It was almost all about the rotten money, which was why we used incinerators and filled landfills, instead of putting effort in prevention and seperating waste and reusing it.
But… the sickening thing again is this misusage for a political agenda. In the end some wealthy exploiters benefit. These guys take their private plane to fly the oceans with just one passenger on board. To hell with that hypocryte corruption!
Further I’m not at all against animal welfare. Completely the opposite! I hate how we often deal with animals. I hate to see our population farmland birds shrink like snow for the sun etcetera, etcetera.
“From the beginning here I’ve always “showed my character in my comments”
That is true lucas: you’ve always shown yourself to be a liar, someone lacking in education when it comes to statistics, science, history — pretty much everything, as well as being completely resistant to doing anything that might result in your gaining any education.
Not to mention reactionary, calcified, ossified and a stick in the mud.
And a misogynist to boot! (Hardly surprising, given the rest of it.)
That’s a mixed bag of responses. At least you don’t seem to be a ‘kick my dog to death because I own it’ type of person.
You need to realise that your prejudices are informing your opinions dramatically. If you are going to state opinions on sexuality and consciousness then realise that your beliefs aren’t truth, they are only prejudices. Consciousness in animals? You can’t even prove that you yourself are conscious to anyone else. No proof that animals feel pain? Same thing, prove that you feel pain. Can you give any more indication that you feel pain than an injured cat can? FYI the science says that yes, cats do feel pain. Physically AND emotionally.
Of course, in an actual survival crisis situation, Tucker’s war-gaming “manly men” are about as useless as you can get. They’ll be cannon fodder for each other, while the rest of us provide real essentials like food, clothing and shelter because we’re capable of the needed cooperation.
True this. I read recently that anthropologist Margaret Mead said that the first sign of civilisation was a healed femur. In nature, a broken femur is a death sentence. A femur that had broken and healed meant that others were looking after the person while the femur healed, bringing them food and keeping them safe.
It is cooperation, not competition, that made our species what it is.
Ah. But the manly men will wait until you have built up a nice stock of food and woven cloth before riding in on the back of a flaming bear to steal it.
This is the essence of l’homme.
“This is the essence of l’homme.”
Lucas’s essense is running down a lamppost.
Mike Adams ( NN, today, first 5 minutes)
( paraphrase) The reason bridges are collapsing is because government/ education considers race, gender, sexual orientation et al instead just hiring the most qualified applicants. That’s why science is failing today. Also insults to First Nations’ culture as a Canadian U considers Two Spirit individuals for teaching positions as Mikey displays his “comedic” voice talents “mimicking” LGBTQIA people.
“Authoritarianism ? No. I’m french. We cannot be authoritarian. As soon as we’d elect a dictator, we go from coup to coup like in the 19th century just for kicks. If “coup d’Etat” is a french words loaned to english, it’s not for nothing: it’s because we fetishise disunity as a vaccine against authoritarianism”
The French are different indeed. As a Huguenot descendant with lots of camping experience in your country, that much I can tell. The best trait of you French is that you leave others alone.
You value freedom more then we do here.
I just hope that you’re not blown away by the coming authoritarian wave, I’m not sure yet. Once behind bars a Lion is helpless.
“I am French and I love my country; if by “unite” you mean to bring all the people to think the same, it is a complete illusion.”
Did I use the word unite? But you’re right anyway, never will people think the same. Perhaps with our uploaded or chip implanted brains we will, haha.
“This is a country with tens of thousands of little towns and villages.”
And nice they are. Except for your suburbs.
All Ami’s here should rent a camper and trek through Europe while you still can.
“A country where in a village of 300 inhabitants, 6 people at the town council can have a row at how to organize the next village party.”
Typical french: talk but not work. The more south the worse.
“This the country where 1 citizen out of 10 is a president of any sort of association and the rest are deputies.”
Which is why our tax money finds its way to you guys.
“More seriously: Vaccination is public health policy. Contrarily to most medical acts that impact only your person, the stakes of vaccination are sufficient for its benefits to outweigh alleged human rights violation. Vaccination should not IMO be decided in purely techno-scientific bureaucratic fashion.”
I hope you’re not violating my right to refuse medical treatment.
Being infected while vaccinated makes things worse: you’re not sick in bed (cause you’re not feeling (really) sick), but infecting others while you may not even be aware of it.
And there’s a strong indication that the vaccines are hidden killers: deaths during 14 days after vaccination are counted in the unvaccinated group; it is precisely in that period that the vaccines cause its victims. Statistics based on official data seem to clearly show this and it’s substantial. Not to speak of the vaccine victims that survive.
Vaccinating in a pandemic worsens that pandemic considerably with new and more dangerous variants according to some serious scientists in the field (so not the quacks that lack relevant knowledge; like all here, including you, me or basic physicians). And it makes sense if you give it a thought.
Better live a healthy lifestyle, wear a good mask in a crowd and stay meters away from people indoors. And do protect the elderly instead of sacrificing them like we’ve done. What more would be necessary?
“IMO, it should always be backed by explicit democratic decisions. If you deny the right of government to make such decisions democratically, you are curtailing my right to deliberate an enact in a democratic fashion. You are taking away the liberty of my people to decide of its fate and its way forward. This indeed is a collective liberty, which we call the Will of the People (though I do not like the expression) and not an individual one. But, hey, not everywhere is Texas !! and this collective liberty does not impinge that much on individual liberty except if you got your mind wired upside down by the antiscience crowd.
NO ONE, NO GOVERNMENT, NO WHO, NO COMMERCIAL PARTY HAS ANY RIGHT TO FORCE ME INTO WHATEVER MEDICAL TREATMENT. Like I said: leave me alone. Some add: or I have you killed if I have to.
Does The Netherlands have a democracy?
“The French are different indeed.”
The French are stupid.
“I hope you’re not violating my right to refuse medical treatment.”
Oh ? Your right to refuse medical treatment ? Are you so generous when it comes to all the whackos in psych wards who want to refuse medical treatment, hmmmh ?
How dedicated are you to your cause, may I ask ?
Let these axe-grinding schizos out ?
You tell me.
“And there’s a strong indication that the vaccines are hidden killers…”
Hey. Don’t mix issues here. Either argue based on human rights. Or argue based on the science. In the end, both count, but for the sake of clarity of argumentation, please pick your favorite argument: your antiscience BS, or your freedom-loving argument that lets the schizos loose. I’ll deal with the one you pick.
“NO ONE, NO GOVERNMENT, NO WHO, NO COMMERCIAL PARTY HAS ANY RIGHT TO FORCE ME INTO WHATEVER MEDICAL TREATMENT.”
OK. So you let the schizos on the loose ? With their axes ready and handy ?
“Like I said: leave me alone. Some add: or I have you killed if I have to.”
So the schizos have a right to kill ? You tell me…
“Does The Netherlands have a democracy?”
In the basic understanding of the term, yes. Netherlands is 6th on the World Press Freedom Index (Norway being n°1) and 11th is the Democracy Index (Norway being n°1). So, yep. Democracy. People can freely discuss issues and the voting system works to materialise the freedom of the constituency when it comes to taking decisions.
What’s your beef with the Netherlands ?
@Lucas There is a question none of you guys want to answer, There is CICP for compensating all countermeasure injuries, inluding ones caused by vaccines. Certainly everyone injured would claim compensation ? Here is CICP statistics:
There are 179 claimed deaths, way less tha reported to VAERS. What explains the diffrence ? Perhaps it is mandatory reporting of all deaths, regardless of inplausibility.
“NO ONE, NO GOVERNMENT, NO WHO, NO COMMERCIAL PARTY HAS ANY RIGHT TO FORCE ME INTO WHATEVER MEDICAL TREATMENT.”
So it is perfectly acceptable to you, Lucas, for a person with active, multi-drug resistant tuberculosis to come into your home and cough in your face? To work in the NICU and PICU?
Something tells me you would not be OK with the consequences for you of other people refusing medical treatment in a way that risks the lives of others.
(Personally, I believe that the only time that involuntary medical treatment should even be considered is if the person is a clear and immediate danger to others, and only after all other avenues have been exhausted, and then only the absolute minimum of treatment with a independent guardian. And if there are more than 10 such people in a year the whole policy would need to be paused and re-thought.)
“That is true lucas: you’ve always shown yourself to be a liar, someone lacking in education when it comes to statistics, science, history — pretty much everything, as well as being completely resistant to doing anything that might result in your gaining any education.”
And there’s the needle on the wornout record. Good substantial comment btw.
But fine if that makes you feel good.
“ And there’s a strong indication that the vaccines are hidden killers…””
Another of your favorite lies — there is no such indication. Why do you continue to repeat this non-supported shit?
Oh, and now you’re a designer? Good god, how many careers are you going to lie and claim? (Don’t want the “repeated record” of you being dishonest and uninformed to continue? Try to learn something and better yourself.)
“Ah. But the manly men will wait until you have built up a nice stock of food and woven cloth before riding in on the back of a flaming bear to steal it.
This is the essence of l’homme.”
Why don’t we just kill those manly men then?
How about this statement: Thieves steal. Manly men won’t. Manly men love wife and kids, protect them, feed them, teach them, play with them, spend time with them invest in their future. And never leave them, cause that’s what cheaters and cowards do, not real men.
It’s not easy to be a real man, but definately possible. It begins with a good upbringing by a manly father and a feminine mother.
“manly father and a feminine mother”
And there we go, a misogynist gender essentialist.
“You need to realise that your prejudices are informing your opinions dramatically. If you are going to state opinions on sexuality and consciousness then realise that your beliefs aren’t truth, they are only prejudices. Consciousness in animals? You can’t even prove that you yourself are conscious to anyone else. No proof that animals feel pain? Same thing, prove that you feel pain. Can you give any more indication that you feel pain than an injured cat can? FYI the science says that yes, cats do feel pain. Physically AND emotionally.”
I try to avoid prejudices by avoiding propaganda, bad behaviour, by not having others tell me good and bad. Just like you I form my opinion and I tend not to call that prejudice, cause that’s not what it is. And I don’t hide my opinion and set of values, popular or not.
I tend not to float on social movements, these just come and go. I realise that some of my ‘beliefs’ aren’t truths, just like yours. But there definately is truth in ‘treat others as you yourself would like to be treated’. And I’m aware we all fail, how hard we try. And no, I’m not conscious to anyone else, I can even prove that to myself.
Yes, animals do feel pain, didn’t I write so? But without awareness I ask myself if it’s not similar to when we are asleep with pain. Do you have a scientific approach to that question?
I do hope animals don’t suffer, because I deeply love and respect nature. If there is suffering in animals, nature would be cruel, period. Anyway, I sponsor projects to turn land into what it was originally, before human subjection. And restore animal life; with what right did we take it away anyway?
Preferably I would avoid eating meat, what right do we have to kill animals? And even if we have that right, should we? I still eat meat, but I’m not that happy with it. I most certainly don’t spill it, that’s perhaps a start.
“I try to avoid prejudices by avoiding propaganda, bad behaviour, by not having others tell me good and bad”
Too late. Your upbringing has already set your path. You may think that you aren’t prejudiced but your word choices show that you are. You already put more weight to opinions that match your own thinking and downplay information that does not. You can’t help doing it. Nobody can.
There’s huge amounts of research on consciousness and homosexuality and, as far as I know, no concrete conclusions. Yet you are certain. Before you jump out of that plane, better check that science packed your parachute.
Nothing vague here.
Let me refresh your memory somewhat. In January of this year we had no war going on whatsoever, had we? Not even a sign of it. And so it’s logic that as a reply Aarno Syvänen wrote back to me – and I quote: “Wars? Chaos? You have watched too many bad science fiction films.”
Now see what has happened meanwhile. Here’s that war I told him to reckon with.
I would definately describe this as a “fact”, wouldn’t you?
And really, there’s no doubt in my mind that things will work out differently then like I’ve written before. Nothing vague, except that I cannot give you exact dates; I’m not a prophet, so that part I don’t know. Only when I literally start feeling the ‘heat’, I know a certain event is as good as there; this is the way we do investments btw, as the effect of leverage is at extreme heights right after such moments.
No doubt too the future of most of you looks black, we’re just not at the turning point yet. Tensions will most probably rise further, cause that’s what your own chosen leaders are steering towards. This chaos that you can definately count on, will however not follow until our leaders exclaim this so called ‘solution’ – ment as a reassurance, but it will only be a lie – in excitement all over the world at a given point in time. Immediatly after, this ‘chaos’ will begin. As a start you will experience that a specific centuries old institute will be removed; and this simultaneously all over the world. Widespread fear follows.
This may all sound a bit cryptic, fine. But “vague”? Not at all.
Now you may think this is all nonsense and thus call it vague. Nevertheless I did mention some really clear highlights for the coming period.
I just want you to make the right decisions. By then I hope for you that you made them.
So in a way this “dick” is here to help you. How about you? What’s your real goal here?
“In January of this year we had no war going on whatsoever, had we? Not even a sign of it.”
It’s been more than a year I predicted a war. didn’t know which country would break it.
And, in january, people in the know did know, and failed to get listened to.
“Not even a sign of it. ”
so you weren’t paying attention. Got it. And now you claim, after the fact, that you predicted it. Classic con you’re playing, but you’re the only one who buys it.
You are really a work of gutter art: repeated assertions that are counter to fact, never with any support (which, since you make the assertions, you are responsible for providing). Every time one of your lies (about fascism, nazism being leftist, or homosexuality in the animal world not being a thing) is refuted with references, you dismiss them without reading them.
Add in your repeated fake claims of being (at various times) an economist, an “analist”, designer, probably a disco roller-skater too, and there’s only one conclusion: you’re a lonely person looking for attention and trying to sound important.
@ldw56old: “you dismiss them without reading them”
Like all good US Reich, Lucas is far too fixated thinking about peen to have any time for your socialist “reading”. Gotta get a Red under every bed, minding everyone else’s business, forever.
“there’s only one conclusion: you’re a lonely person looking for attention and trying to sound important”
Well that narrows it down to a mere 70 million. Lucas’s days of going unloved and clueless are surely drawing to a middle.
“Like all good US Reich…”
I’m not convinced he’s in the US, but then I’m not sure geographic location matters: the sum of his person (based on comment history) is the same regardless of location.
@ldw56old: “I’m not convinced [Lucas]’s in the US”
That’s true: he could also be in Putingrad. It is impossible to tell.
Yep I misjudged Putin. But you spoke about wars and chaos generally, you did not speak about any specific war,
“Yep I misjudged Putin. But you spoke about wars and chaos generally, you did not speak about any specific war,”
Not a war specifically in the Ukraine indeed. But like you say it yourself: “I misjudged Putin”, so a coming proxy war in the Ukraine was to be expected. However, I did not misjudge this criminal. In fact it is your leftist bastion that left him few choice and I did not misjudge that either.
Our leaders apparently don’t do anything to stop this war, instead they seem to add fuel to the fire. Whether this costs lifes or not, who cares. The reason is that for them the agenda that you guys describe as conspiracy theory – but what is nothing more then their own agenda you can read about – is sacret and specific terms must be met. Therefore if you ask me, I’d say this is a war on unilateralism vs multilateralism.
And about this “chaos”, we’re not there yet. Tensions will most probably build up further, simply because of the choices the leaders you have chosen yourselves, will make – people have a tendency to choose for their own executioners; you did and you’ll pay the price.
I’m sure that even this very forum has clear ties to these ‘executioners’. So blame yourselves when this house of cards falters. Many people seem to hate themselves, so no surprise here.
Nevertheless, the societal structure will stay in tact for a while, until you’ll watch this event I described. I know what centuries old institutions will suddenly be removed right after this optimistic sounding exclamation I mentioned many times and that it is your own governments that will be the submissive puppets (that seem) responsible for the execution. But I choose not to be more specific (again), as it is rather useless if I would be.
Perhaps – I’m really not sure, so don’t make it my claim later on – at the end of this conflict, the aforementioned exclamation of our leaders that I frequently spoke about, will follow (and chaos begins). But this is speculation: it seems likely, but such occurences often take their own unexpected direction. We’ll see.
US cannot stop Ukraine war, only Piutin can. He started it.
“But this is speculation …”
that’s an interesting spelling of pure bullshit.
“”And there’s a strong indication that the vaccines are hidden killers…”
Another of your favorite lies — there is no such indication. Why do you continue to repeat this non-supported shit?”
With you I keep repeating and repeating.Tiresome.
“Oh, and now you’re a designer? Good god, how many careers are you going to lie and claim? (Don’t want the “repeated record” of you being dishonest and uninformed to continue? Try to learn something and better yourself.)”
Indeed, just like months ago I was. Didn’t you follow my discussion with F68.10 about design – creator? Now why would I discuss design? Also see this Robert Malone blog, March 14, 2022 at 4:56 pm. Again the same info. You even responded. Time to visit a neurologist ldw56old.
When I have my hands free again I will start a study civil engineering. Am I allowed? Pretty please?
lucas, the notion that you would study anything is ludicrous, given the repeated demonstrations of your lack of understanding of statistics, science, vaccines, history, and political movements.
You have mastered dishonesty though. And never providing support for any of your assertions. You are truly a master of the lie and assertions backed by nothing more than vapor.
“ With you I keep repeating and repeating”
Yes, you keep repeating an unsupported assertion. Even my freshmen stat students know that when you make an assertion (like the ones you have) you are responsible for supplying evidence to support it. You don’t — and can’t, because you’re just making the shit up — the vaccine isn’t killing scores of people.
I don’t know what mental defect causes you to be such a fountain of lies about the vaccine, same sex behavior in people and animals, and your mythical careers, but it must be a damn strong one.
“And now you claim, after the fact, that you predicted it. Classic con you’re playing, but you’re the only one who buys it.”
If after the fact, why would Aarno have rediculed me? Time to study the timeline, ldw56old.
Listen, if I would meet someone making bold assertions, I would worm the information out of him and see if and what he knows that I do not. Suppose you did so – just like I did when I was your age – you might have gotten convinced that indeed this war was quite soon to follow. You might have bought some oil contracts too, a missed opportunity if you had not. And voila, you wouldn’t have had to work any more day of your life if you didn’t want. But you prefer to stay an arrogant fool. So silly.
“You are really a work of gutter art: repeated assertions that are counter to fact, never with any support (which, since you make the assertions, you are responsible for providing). Every time one of your lies (about fascism, nazism being leftist, or homosexuality in the animal world not being a thing) is refuted with references, you dismiss them without reading them.”
I’m still waiting for Orac’s reaction. Interesting that rookies from the other end of the globe in their wisdom tell me what happened next to me. And that’s not all.
“Add in your repeated fake claims of being (at various times) an economist, an “analist”, designer, probably a disco roller-skater too, and there’s only one conclusion: you’re a lonely person looking for attention and trying to sound important.”
Not the disco roller-skater. Not lonely at all and not looking for attention. We have YouTube and Facebook for attracting attention.
And you forgot to mention that I know more then you do, a.o. about what’s going on behind the scenes here in Europe. Of course I’m not giving you the details, but a clue I will give you. Napoleon ended the reasonable important profession of one of my ancestors whose name was and still is the profession.
If you’re smart you’ll find out that the claim may not be the lie you think it is.
““I try to avoid prejudices by avoiding propaganda, bad behaviour, by not having others tell me good and bad”
Too late. Your upbringing has already set your path. You may think that you aren’t prejudiced but your word choices show that you are. You already put more weight to opinions that match your own thinking and downplay information that does not. You can’t help doing it. Nobody can.”
An old fox need learn no craft.
“There’s huge amounts of research on consciousness and homosexuality and, as far as I know, no concrete conclusions. Yet you are certain. Before you jump out of that plane, better check that science packed your parachute.”
I did NOT say I am certain on consciousness; and I HOPE animals don’t suffer, even though they clearly feel. And I said that if animals suffer the way humans do, nature is cruel.
About homosexuality I said I’m almost sure a part of that group is born with it. I also said it should not be misused for leftist political propaganda; that’s what makes me sick, not homosexuality itself. Gutmensch spielerei, yuck. That’s hiding intentions and who you are.
“I’m almost sure a part of that group is born with it”
And there you have it. You are ALMOST sure. As if your opinion is relevant and informed rather than based on your prejudices. As if you have the knowledge base to make that statement.
You have opinions. You say you think they are likely facts. You write off any evidence against your opinions as lefty propaganda, hence you can claim to have never seen anything to prove you wrong, whilst simultaneously implying that you would change your mind, if only there was evidence.
“An old fox need learn no craft” is really ‘can’t teach an old dog new tricks’.
“lucas, the notion that you would study anything is ludicrous, given the repeated demonstrations of your lack of understanding of statistics, science, vaccines, history, and political movements.”
How can you be the judge of that?
You’ve never provided any evidence that the numbers of deaths are wrong — you just think they are. Same for your comments about vaccines. When you were presented with references that showed your takes on same-sex behavior in the animal were completely false you wrote them off to “liberal sources”. Your comments about fascism and nazi positioning on the political spectrum were laughably wrong.
So how is it that your lack of education and honesty can be judged? Your posting history.
Lucas asks, plaintively “How can you be the judge of that?”
Here’s how. @ldw56old used the dark magic called “reading” to discern (sorry – hard word – how about “to see”) that you have no knowledge, like your mom looked at your fingernails to see that you hadn’t (as you said you had) washed your hands after wiping yourself.
“”In January of this year we had no war going on whatsoever, had we? Not even a sign of it.”
It’s been more than a year I predicted a war. didn’t know which country would break it.
And, in january, people in the know did know, and failed to get listened to.”
Interesting. However to be expected that you foresaw it. From different perspectives the expectation was obvious. That it would take a year was impossible to predict back then (at least for us), but the Ukraine must have been an option in your mind, I’m sure.
Last January we knew it would be a very soon to follow proxy war in the Ukraine; which of course generated a good trading opportunity for oil.
Vilified Trump clearly warned Germany back then regarding its partnership with Russia on the purchase of gas. Perhaps it had better listened.
Anyway, the Ruble has profited; and with a coupling to gold, definately interesting against the Euro.
I see few effort in deescalation, rather the opposite. What are your thoughts on that?
What kind of deescalation you have in your mind ? Surrender of Ukraine. In this case, hat would be Putin’s next target ?
You notice that people paying gas with rubles, thus of ruble to euro exchange rate.
“There is a question none of you guys want to answer, There is CICP for compensating all countermeasure injuries, inluding ones caused by vaccines. Certainly everyone injured would claim compensation ? Here is CICP statistics:
There are 179 claimed deaths, way less tha reported to VAERS. What explains the diffrence ? Perhaps it is mandatory reporting of all deaths, regardless of inplausibility.”
Are the victim’s relatives aware of the possible compensation?
Do they want a legal fight over a case that left so deep a scar?
Pfizer and the like excluded liability; it’s your government you have to fight: I wish you luck.
The government will at least invoke on an emergency situation.
You’ll need medical reporting of specialists that’s not there, not adequate or not sufficient. In practice lots of relevant information will be withheld. Ask Medical Yeti, he’ll know this is true (if he admits this, is something else).
In general causality is difficult to proof, the more so on an individual level.
In short: you start a fight that’s hard / impossible to win.
Usually people were eager sue after loved one’s death, so why is would be a ifferent case
People has won cases against US government, witness NVICP Actually CICP has compensated 30 causes, so proof of causality is not imposssible.. You need medical records, certainly people will visit doctor when death threatens, I doubt that medical records are falsified.
“You’ve never provided any evidence that the numbers of deaths are wrong — you just think they are. Same for your comments about vaccines.
The numbers of deaths of course are correct, see the official data. I guess you mean the numbers of vaccine related deaths.
Again I refer to the report of these statisticians. Attack that report and not me. Perhaps you should ask mathematician F68.10 to study the report, which is based on the official data. Like I said, for a specific reason I’d be happy to be wrong here.
What I concluded for myself and communicated here that I smelled a rat, I based on the signs in my own area. No hard proof indeed. However, if what these people happened to tell me is true – or just half true or less – the reported vaccine deaths have to be wrong, very wrong (strong underreporting). This is all soft to you and rightfully so.
The other indication is that control group of 66,000. After vaccination 4 people badly injured, no deaths. However a more then average lifstyle, not over the age of 65, not below about 20. But here’s the thing: the vast majority of vaccine deaths mostly occur in high age. Already this 4/66,000 after one round of vaccination gives a higher percentage of victims then the official data. Again no proof here too for you.
As a side note: the number of Covid deaths worldwide must be much higher then the official number. I can’t remember right now, I thought it should be about 4 times higher. That’s what a control group of about 9 mln worldwide tells me. But since you don’t know the details: just fyi.
“When you were presented with references that showed your takes on same-sex behavior in the animal were completely false you wrote them off to “liberal sources”.
Again please read what these references have to say, I repeat: ““Thus, a homosexual orientation, IF ONE CAN SPEAK OF SUCH THINGS IN ANIMALS, seems to be a rarity.” The motivations for and implications of these behaviors have YET TO BE FULLY UNDERSTOOD.”
Apparently you understand such rarities?
You apparently can speak of homosexuality in animals?
Anyway, your source cannot.
“Your comments about fascism and nazi positioning on the political spectrum were laughably wrong.”
Then I wait for your reply for the why.
“Perhaps you should ask mathematician F68.10 to study the report.”
Sorry. You seem to be confused about what a mathematician is. Just click on the link on the link to get an example of what a mathematician really does. It’s not what you think he is doing.
“Interesting. However to be expected that you foresaw it. From different perspectives the expectation was obvious. That it would take a year was impossible to predict back then (at least for us), but the Ukraine must have been an option in your mind, I’m sure.”
Yes and no. I was analysing geopolitics as a whole. And yes, there were many tensions piling around China that could blow up. Whether it be Taïwan, central asia, pakistan, iran, turkey and yes, ukraine, there were too many tensions piling up. I came at the conclusion it had to crack somewhere. And I wasn’t too wrong about that since the Ukraine is part of that continuum of tensions going from Russia to China. The tendency of countries to shield themselves from the Internet is the main symptom of these tensions. And the way Putin is instrumentalising anticolonial grudge in order to legitimise killing Whites = Nazis in the mind of the third world is also a big symptom of it.
However, I was not paying much attention to Ukraine. I was too ignorant about Cold War history and the continuities with the present day situation. So, while I was aware of many things, such as the 2004 Czech anti-missile crisis, I did not pay enough attention to Putin. And yes, he fooled me. I had expected the tensions induced by democratisation in East Europe to smoothen out, with sporadic tensions, like the EU / Poland / Hungary institutional crisis. Didn’t pay enough attention to Putin. I was complacent. I’m not anymore.
But at no point in time do I lay the blame of these wars on “NWO”, “WEF” or whatever. In fact, international institutions are precisely what needs to be defended. And defending them starts at home, by winning french elections against the coup-loving far right, protect Europe from implosion, and reinforce prospects of federalisation of Europe. A topic which could also well trigger a war not in East Europe but in West Europe. More of the civil war kind.
But no NWO / WEF conspiracy theory in my assessment. Quite the contrary, in fact.
We are fighting against religions broadly defined as distinguishable mass social phenomenon of mass irrationality. Putinism is one of them. Not the only one.
Freedom of religion is important. Freedom from religion is even more important.
@ Monsieur F:
I don’t dabble in geopolitics any more than reporting on what alties/ woo-meisters broadcast in their secondary profession- predicting the future and advising their thralls – and very general news BUT
around January 2021, I was reading at various sites that Putin had a serious illness: it was speculated that he had cancer, Parkinson’s or MS. He supposedly was seen less and looked worse ( which isn’t that common amongst vampires who never show signs of illness).
I don’t know if he was really ill or merely holing up with his cronies plotting. This was written about for a few months.
In my personal opinion, he doesn’t look good. Perhaps taking steroids? Other meds? He still has a little hair left. He’s not yellow or whiter than usual. Moves worse than he usually did if he’s not shown sitting at a long table, maybe fearing contact with germs.
You notice the problem. If reported vaccine injuries are low,there must be misreporting, it just cannot be that vaccines are actully safe. Antivaxxers have now much of raw FDA data, I still wait bombsells.
Fewer than 1 in a 100 adverse vaccine reactions are reported – because it’s not worth the trouble to report a sore arm or slight fatigue
“IF ONE CAN SPEAK OF SUCH THINGS IN ANIMALS”
There’s a very simple explanation for this statement. The term homosexuality has many other implications than same sex pairing. It’s hard to apply it directly to animals because those implications include human emotions and relationships. Obviously, animals have their own emotional and relationship parameters. Therefore it’s possible that animals should use something other than ‘homo’ in the term.
However, so what? At it’s basics, homosexuality is a relationship between same sex beings. Animals have same sex relationships equivalent to opposite sex relationships. QED.
“Look, we get it. You are a reactionary, angry old man who wants desperately to go back to the war-torn Europe of your youth.”
You’re damn wrong. Mid 50 to start with, so born 20 years after the war ended here. I know, feel, partly saw, heard, read what a war-torn Europe has brought us.
2 Parents as war victims to start with. Shot relatives another. Anxiety, misery, sickness, starvation, poverty, a large farmer family knocking on your door in the middle of the night to stay in your house for years, as their house was washed away because of bombed dikes. Your house with high tide flooded with sea water no higher then the first floor because you were lucky enough to live opposite to the church. No heating, no shoes while severe winters.
Tanks with German soldiers on top blown to pieces and you saw it happening right before your eyes as a child. Houses blown to pieces. English fighter jets shooting and killing your villagers in the main street. Or shot down by the Germans. Your parents in fear, your older brother hunted in order to work in German factories. Mass slaughtering at the end of the war, while you watched the bodies left and right of you.
The other side: bombed in Rotterdam by the Nazis, all death and destruction around you while you’re only 5. Your father kicked at the head by a German soldier in front of your eyes. Anxiety disorder. Skinny as a lath. Emaciated people with long sticks trying to steel the flower bulbs you transport to eat, some dying while you watch.
I could go on and on, in short: death and destruction.
Time to shut up, JustaTech!
Where do you live? How old are you? Where were your parents during the war? Ever heard and felt about what the hell happened here?
And you tell me I want to go back to war-torn Europe? Have you completely lost your mind???
If I’m angry it’s because you don’t realise that what you ask for may quite likely become similar. You’re just too stubborn and most of all brainwashed to realise it. Wake up, leftist fool!
“You have yet to provide a citation for any of your nonsense. You have no data, no understanding of history or current events, no grounding in science and no curiosity. You are simply here to yell, like an old man yelling at a cloud.”
You utter fool. Shame on you. You know nothing!
@Lucas: “ Tanks with German soldiers on top blown to pieces and you saw it happening right before your eyes as a child. Houses blown to pieces. English fighter jets shooting and killing your villagers in the main street. Or shot down by the Germans. Your parents in fear, your older brother hunted in order to work in German factories. Mass slaughtering at the end of the war, while you watched the bodies left and right of you.”
“You utter fool. Shame on you. You know nothing!”
You blustering boob, your delusions of literacy are pitiful. Stick your Attack; your Defense tucks balls.
And again an overblown far-away ignorant moron of history.
First: replace the word jet with plane, I mixed the words. It were probably two Spitfires that shot the main street of the village (after the Germans were already gone) with some casualties as a result.
Often the Royal Airforce shot at anything that moved, including inland vessels (grand parents sailed one) that were often thought to sail for the Germans.
Here are some details, ment as an impression of what happens in a real war – unlike the videowars that you play in the basement of your mama.
About this tank: it was a Buffalo tank, 1 of 4 in column, driving from Serooskerke to Middelburg at 6 October 1944 for the surrender of the German general staff. Outside the village, the first tank drove at a greenish long German antitank landmine, 20 of the 24 men inside the tank died. As an immediate revenge the English / Scottish in one of the following tanks shot 4 German prisoners of war, captured in one of these tanks. I asked my father today about the details; he was there and witnessed it. I mixed up the German prisoners of war on top of the tank with inside the tank, the ones on top was at another occasion.
Houses blown to pieces: The largest towns of the Island: Vlissingen shot with granates from Breskens by the English; the city was completely destroyed. Middelburg was bombed by the Germans and burned as a result; the city was almost completely destroyed. Village Westkapelle completely destroyed by an English war vessel (the Warspite) that frequently missed the German bunkers in the dike. It often shot too low or too high.
Less then 100 m. away from the house of my grand aunt a hit English fighter plane underway to Germany dropped all of its bombs in order to return to England. These were timebombs. The first went off at / near the house of fam. Vreeke. The family was not at home, their baby was, dead. A boyfriend (probably 15 years of age) of my aunt (Gerrit his name was) came to help, then the next time bomb exploded. My father watched him carried away to hospital, smiling to him but heavily wounded. The same evening he died.
Literally everyone had scabies and there were lots of other diseases among them. Starvation to death was worse in the bigger Cities, like Amsterdam. But almost everyone in the country was heavlily malnourished, especially at the end of the war.
Slaughtering also at Rotterdam, where the Germans destroyed almost all houses in the city. Grand parents and mother were in the Leuvehaven at that time; all other inland vessels there sank. My morther watched a woman at one of these ships hit by probably a bomb fragment, instant dead.
Not to mention the mass slaughtering of Jews and other minorities that were often betrayed by locals. Or busted by our Police. Some survived and I’ve known them for years. Ever heard of Anne Frank?
All caused by your friends, the leftist Nazis.
What you aggressive leftist morons do now is fueling the fire in the Ukraine with a risk of further escalation. It seems to me that you want, or for your cause need, this war. But you don’t know what war means. Well, you just read a personal fragment here.
Do you even know how to spell ’empathy’? Apparently you don’t care about death and misery, as long as it doesn’t concern you.
“ All caused by your friends, the leftist Nazis.”
As if it weren’t bad enough that you are so mind-numbingly stupid that you think Nazis were leftist, you’re accusing someone here of being a Nazi sympathizer? I wouldn’t have guessed you could show yourself to be any more of a loser — but now you just triple down.
By the way, your little “war stories” probably go well on whatever fan fiction site you stole them from, but if you expect anyone to believe you have even 2nd hand knowledge of things like that, after all of your other lies, think again.
“All caused by your friends, the leftist Nazis.”
Stop calling “leftists” Nazis. In the mouth of people like you, I, a centre-right dude, am a leftist. And a Nazi.
I’m fed up by this moral highjacking of words that imply that I’m a legit target for elimination.
Quit that kind of talk ASAP.
@Lucas: Fuck off, Buffalo Bill.
The Nazis chose to play stupid games; won stupid prizes. Spitfires strafing ground targets? Please. That’s tickle-me-foreplay with a feather. Firebombing Dresden; that’s war done proper.
Me, I have empathy. I merely choose not to share any of it with you, and would end you soon as look at you, given the choice. Because I know what you are, and decent humane people (or which there are still a few) do not deserve to scrub out your charnel trucks after you fuckers grab power.
So take your gaslighting and your head, Good Comrade, stuff both in an oven (you know what sort; you’ve used them before), and do all of humanity a powerful solid.
@ldw56old: “As if it weren’t bad enough that you are so mind-numbingly stupid that you think Nazis were leftist”
Yeah, no. The toxic edgelord isn’t that stupid. It knows exactly what it is saying and why it’s saying it too.
In Gernany, leftist were Communists an Social Democrats
Ah, so you’re not nearly as old as you had implied.
I know where my good friend’s father was during the the war. He was tiny infant, orphaned, raised by his grandmother. His brother was a POW.
Both of them eventually moved to the US. The kindest, gentlest people you’d ever meet. Good sense of humor, too.
But you could see what the war and post-war had done to them. They kept more food than they’d ever need in the house. Always filled your plate twice.
And he was a very progressive guy, supporting gay rights (all of them, not just the “some” you talk about), and women’s rights, raising a strong, independent daughter and a kind, caring, nurturing son.
You didn’t experience any of those terrible things, you were born long after the post-war famine.
So I mis-spoke when I said you wanted to go back to war-torn Europe.
You want to go back to a time that never existed, when men were men (strong, aggressive, dominate, authoritarian) and women were women (soft, submissive, silent, weak), and everyone strictly adhered to the gender rolls of their culture, no matter the cost.
No, I will not shut up. You have no power over me. I will not be silenced by something as utterly irrelevant as some guy on the internet who wants everyone to get sick with preventable diseases and lies copiously about everything to try to prop up his heinous ideas.
You offer no citations, only shouting. And quite frankly, you are boring, saying nothing I haven’t heard a dozen times before.
“US cannot stop Ukraine war, only Piutin can. He started it.”
May be so, but perhaps too much of a one-sided exposure. For what reason did he start this war? Is it just expansion drift? What does Putin have to say for himself?
“May be so, but perhaps too much of a one-sided exposure. For what reason did he start this war? Is it just expansion drift? What does Putin have to say for himself?”
Read George Kenna’s long telegram. Things haven’t changed one bit since then. Well, they could have. But Putin made the choice to revert to the soviet’s bad habits, which are well rooted in the russian geopolitical mentality.
“At bottom of Kremlin’s neurotic view of world affairs is traditional and instinctive Russian sense of insecurity. Originally, this was insecurity of a peaceful agricultural people trying to live on vast exposed plain in neighborhood of fierce nomadic people. To this was added, as Russia came into contact with economically advanced west, fear of more competent more powerful, more highly organized societies in that area. But this latter type of insecurity was one which afflicted rather Russian rulers than Russian people ; for Russian rulers have invariably sensed that their rule was relatively archaic in form, fragile and artificial in its psychological foundations, unable to stand comparison or contact with political systems of western countries. For this reason they have always feared foreign penetration, feared direct contact between western world and their own, feared what would happen if Russians learned truth about world without or if foreigners learned truth about world within. And they have learned to seek security only in patient but deadly struggle for total destruction of rival power, never in compacts and compromises with it.” — George Kennan’s long telegram, p. 5-6
Nothing has changed. Communism was almost merely a pretext. The same fundamentals applied before USSR, at the time of USSR, and now, after USSR.
This is a war against a mentality. A mentality that cannot live with us, West, unless we are at their mercy. Which will not happen. Russia’s rhetoric is just a façade to hide this fundamental truth about the nature of Russian power.
Which is why we must crush Putin. And open up Russia to the influence of the outside world and democratise it. Ideally gradually and progressively with a leader that understands the stakes. Putin might have been that person when we started negociating with him at the beginning. The last 20 years have shown us that this was a façade. We cannot put any more trust in such leaders. The time for negociations is now over.
Russian power must be treated like a psychiatric patient own the widest nuclear arsenal. It is not a partner in any way. Unless it starts opening up to “bourgeois values” and starts respecting the notion of truth.
“We have our special russian truth.” — Aleksandr Dugin, Putin’s subconcious, on Russia’s version of postmodernism.
We have to break this mindset once and for all, and it will take a shitload of time.
Call that “western warmongering” if you want. But we won’t let Russia’s geopolitical vision be predicated on our demise and our submission anymore.
“What kind of deescalation you have in your mind ? Surrender of Ukraine. In this case, what would be Putin’s next target?”
Stop! Isn’t this typical American war rhetoric?
Why haven’t we seen any de-escalating effort in recent years? Just as a hint for our leaders: perhaps talk with the bastard in the first place, what is it he wants, what is he afraid of and continue from there.
Something isn’t right, Aarno. Haven’t you noticed?
“Stop! Isn’t this typical American war rhetoric? Why haven’t we seen any de-escalating effort in recent years? Just as a hint for our leaders: perhaps talk with the bastard in the first place”
We’ve been talking with Putin for 20 years at a minimum.
Talk is over.
“We’ve been talking with Putin for 20 years at a minimum.
Talk is over.”
Why haven’t we left the bastard alone? You can’t say talk is over. Then what?
I don’t think talk is over, F68.10. Like I said I think this war is about uni- vs multilateralism.
I can be wrong but I expect that at some point both parties will come to an agreement, one that entices Russia in UN plans that the West already has embraced, no matter how dangerous.
“ one that entices Russia in UN plans that the West already has embraced, no matter how dangerous.”
It would really be interesting to know why people like you grew to be so ignorant of essentially everything related to science and history, so devoted to dishonesty, also absorb so many nebulous and asinine grand conspiracies.
“Why haven’t we left the bastard alone? You can’t say talk is over. Then what?”
Talk is over.
We have engaged with Russia peacefully. Made occasional mistakes, but nothing that justifies what we are witnessing now. We left “the bastard” alone, expecting him to ultimately behave. He has chosen not to. There is no other way.
You want to talk ? Putin talks with guns and nukes. We’ll therefore talk with guns and nukes too.
Fed up by this pseudo-pacifist shit.
“I don’t think talk is over, F68.10. Like I said I think this war is about uni- vs multilateralism.”
Nope. This war is not about multipolarity. Peaceful multipolarity was on the rise. With India. What Putin wants is a multipolarity that does away with UN rules. China wants it too. It’s the end of the UN.
I gave you the link to George Kennan’s long telegram. Read it. You’ll see Stalin speaking of multipolarity. This is not peaceful multipolarity like I’d wish it. This is double talk for Cold War and endless agression and proxy wars like we’ve been witnessing.
Don’t fall for buzzwords when people tweak them into meaninglessness.
“I can be wrong but I expect that at some point both parties will come to an agreement, one that entices Russia in UN plans that the West already has embraced, no matter how dangerous.”
There is no agreement possible. China and Russia want to break the UN. They want to break the very framework that makes agreements possible. China, specifically, wants an end to what is called international law. It has made it clear many times over the years. Russia too.
You’re the one that’s not listening to them.
You’re brainwashed. And I make no bones about it: you’ve lost your moral compass.
@F68: “you’ve lost your moral compass.”
Begging the question as there is no evidence whatsoever it ever had one to lose. Just a flatulent attention whore. At least professional GOP/Putin spewers do it for the money. This one appears to be genuinely besotted with its own nether regions.
Protip for @Lucas: “Gaslighting” does not mean setting fire to your own farts and huffing the vapors till you’re high AF. But hey, you do you. Preferably inside a locked and sealed room.
Honestly, this one makes even the gelatinous Gerg sound honest and intelligent—and I threw up in my mouth a little† just to type that.
I know @Orac doesn’t like to ban even persistent abusers, not least as they obligingly prove all his points for him, but for this special case nothing of value will be lost. Even diarrhetic puppy bowels smell better RN than the RI threads it is infesting, and I say that as a fairly toxic shit myself.
† Okay, a lot.
Perhaps Putin himself could do some deescalation?
Actually, it seems that next target would be Moldavia ( a statement of the commanding general)
Good question. So let’s talk with Putin then?
There is no talk possible with Putin.
Zelensky offered talks.
Putin rejected them.
Putin does not want to talk.
Prepare the nukes.
That’s how you talk with Putin: nukes.
It’s the only language he understands.
So be it.
“I doubt that medical records are falsified.”
I didn’t mention falsified.
What other name you can use for changing medical records to hide vaccine side effects ?
“”manly father and a feminine mother”
And there we go, a misogynist gender essentialist.”
Then I ask you for a second time why the misogynist conclusion?
What’s wrong with feminine?
Such brainwashed society.
Nothing is wrong with the feminine or the masculine at all.
What is wrong is that you restrict the expression of them to one gender rather than both.
Why can’t a man express his feminine, nurturing side as a parent?
Why can’t a woman express her masculine, assertive side as a breadwinner?
There is no reason why everyone can’t do these things. To deny individuals the expression of their whole selves is harmful to society.
You are the one who wants to trap people in little boxes. Not me.
Define “feminine.” Then describe a feminine woman.
By the way, I do not wear makeup, and I never wear skirts. I also have a degree in aerospace engineering. Am I male or female?
Trick question. Answer is: “Negative, I am a meat popsicle.”
Hush! You will alert the troll to the actual answer. And I really want to see his definition and description.
Actually this was an actual argument I had with a college classmate in the late 1970s. She has been married at least three times (after the last divorce the holiday card was returned with no forwarding address). Spouse and I will soon celebrate more that four decades of marriage.
I have always been annoyed that the bit and pieces that I was expected to play due to my gender. I was not supposed to like math or science, plus I was to plaster my face with products that annoyed my face (my stepmother actually sent me to a charm school at a local department store to teach me how to be a lady… including makeup, clothing and how to gracefully enter/exit an automobile), and don’t get me started on back pain inducing footwear!
Plus I was supposed to go through the very annoying process to change my name! It took my stepmother ten years to learn how to spell my spouse’s name, and she never learned how to pronounce it (apparently she, a Norwegian descendant, had issues with a name from a country southeast of the UK). Let’s just say that name is constantly spelled quite wrong.
Oh, crud, I did not close a tag… still works, and the link is more potent. (she apparently made a similar song for lawyers)
“I was to plaster my face with products that annoyed my face”
Well, as a man, I do not like women who plaster their faces. Had to make some compromises, though.
But I do get some insults by men when I do not share their feminine tastes, but even worse bad mouthing by women when I say that they need not in my view undergo such pain for what I consider nothing.
Seems like they took so much trouble getting used to high heels that they get very offended when you say that that kind is of pain for nothing is not something you, in the end, care for.
I came to the conclusion women like to suffer for nothing.
“Negative, I am a meat popsicle.”
Only to someone who is completely clueless. It seems some of you are too attached to your dangley bits, where for many of us in the population a battery powered replacement can easily be purchased.
“It seems some of you are too attached to your dangley bits, where for many of us in the population a battery powered replacement can easily be purchased.”
Yes, we of the Y persuasion did notice the ridiculous ease with which we have been automated into obsolescence. Nostra culpa.
Although on this particular occasion the correct response was in fact “Multipass!”
“a battery powered replacement can easily be purchased.”
Wait! I can get a battery powered replacement? I heard rumours of a “6 million dollar man” remake….
USB rechargeable no less.
““ one that entices Russia in UN plans that the West already has embraced, no matter how dangerous.”
It would really be interesting to know why people like you grew to be so ignorant of essentially everything related to science and history, so devoted to dishonesty, also absorb so many nebulous and asinine grand conspiracies.”
Related to science and history… is impossible to judge if you don’t have such background yourself.
If it’s not a secret, tell me what is your background. What’s your age? Where do you live? What’s your goal in life?
Without a doubt in my mind this ‘fourth industrial revolution’ – revolutions send shivers down my spine – plan with so many UN elements in it, is a conspiracy. Shame you don’t read.
Should I be disturbed? That depends on the speed of enrollment; definately there’s unprecedented pressure to make it work. I’m almost sure it’s related to this pandemic, this war, these shortages, all this pressure; difficult to give hard proof though. But I don’t believe much in accident, you?
To answer my question: I don’t think it will get far; I’m almost sure there will be an unforeseen scenario that ends these plans. And ends these planners.
Then I own everything (life) and be happy about it.
Statistician. Master’s degrees in math and statistics, Ph.D. in statistics. Capable of reading for understanding, something of which you’ve never demonstrated mastery. But keep working — you’ll get through your Dick and Jane readers soon enough.
blockquote>Without a doubt in my mind this ‘fourth industrial revolution’ – revolutions send shivers down my spine – plan with so many UN elements in it, is a conspiracy.<.blockquote>
There it is, more of the unspecified but “ooogy boogy” conspiracy crap from your small mind. Pathetic.
“Shame you don’t read.”
I do — just not the low IQ conspiracy mongering crap you seem to be addicted to.
“”Why haven’t we left the bastard alone? You can’t say talk is over. Then what?”
Talk is over.
We have engaged with Russia peacefully. Made occasional mistakes, but nothing that justifies what we are witnessing now. We left “the bastard” alone, expecting him to ultimately behave. He has chosen not to. There is no other way.”
You sound like a hardliner. I’m intrinsically one too. But we should not be overhasted and plunge ourselves into another world war, if that is what you’d like to see. War benefits a few and that’s not you. For now the chapter is war rhetoric.
I personally don’t see a WW-3 coming as in a traditional sense, who would survive that? I even expect Putin (or a successor) will become ‘friends’ with our leaders telling lies at the same table.
And indeed nothing justifies what we are witnessing now. No way it does. But what justified the dirty wars of America, or France for that matter? Have you read about what my country did in Indonesia? It’s all rotten apples.
“You want to talk ? Putin talks with guns and nukes. We’ll therefore talk with guns and nukes too.”
Fine, that’s part of the process, nothing really disturbing yet.
“Fed up by this pseudo-pacifist shit.”
I don’t choose side, instead stay politically neutral. But I’m no pacifist at all.
“Nope. This war is not about multipolarity. Peaceful multipolarity was on the rise. With India. What Putin wants is a multipolarity that does away with UN rules. China wants it too. It’s the end of the UN.”
It’s not the UN’s end yet. It will perform another task first and both the West and Russia will be cooperative.
“I gave you the link to George Kennan’s long telegram. Read it. You’ll see Stalin speaking of multipolarity. This is not peaceful multipolarity like I’d wish it. This is double talk for Cold War and endless agression and proxy wars like we’ve been witnessing.”
I’ll read it.
“There is no agreement possible. China and Russia want to break the UN. They want to break the very framework that makes agreements possible. China, specifically, wants an end to what is called international law. It has made it clear many times over the years. Russia too.”
All true and it does seem that way. Nevertheless the UN is here to stay, no matter what.
However perhaps unlogic, the UN, the West, China and Russia will get in line one way or another. It may take a while, but you’ll see they will.
“You’re brainwashed. And I make no bones about it: you’ve lost your moral compass.”
Look, I was in Russia in 1993 and I’ve got some good friends there from that moment on, as well as in the Ukraine btw. Even though most can live a reasonably free life in both countries, these friends in Russia have lived in a constant fear under Putin for several years now. Fear of being imprisoned for many years, intimidated, beaten; all based on lies. That’s one of the reasons I kind of hate the son of a bitch Putin. I also hate the widespread corruption in both countries from top to bottom, or vice versa I should say. I don’t like what’s happening in the Ukraine at all either; a threat of war and a possible new threat of being imprisoned for the same reason as in Russia. All in all I’m not defending Putin if that’s what you think and wish to see him leave asap. But that’s not the point I made.
Another point I want to add: I hate the propaganda, be it from criminal Russia, from criminal Ukraine or from the West.
Blah blah blah.
It is not just Kennan’s telegram. Russia did attack it neighbours long before Stalin.
Russians may be nice people, but Russia is not a democracy and has never been. You should think about the government.
Problem is that Putin is delusional. How badly ? Obivously NATO is much stronger than Ukraine, but does he get that ?
@ Aarno Syvänen
“It is not just Kennan’s telegram. Russia did attack it neighbours long before Stalin.”
Sure. The Poles know it all too well. In 1791, they indeed did set up a liberal democracy in the form of a constitutional monarchy. Peacefully. Gave rights to their jewish minority without, to this end, rejected catholicism as a state religion.
Russia took it away.
The problem with these kinds of arguments is that Russia could always whine about having been invaded by Poland before (which is true).
The reality is that Russian fury goes beyond these geopolitical grudges. And the West woke up to the nature of Russian reality with Kennan’s telegram.
Now, of course, Russia could always find faults everywhere it wants, as in Kennan’s not overly progressive worldview on race. The reality is that the nazi card is being played over and over again in an extremely unhealthy way. To the point that I’m forced to say that laws punishing holocaust denialism in my country (where I also have to confess antisemitism is still a very real thing) have been instrumentalised as moral blackmail to shut down any serious conversation as per Godwin’s law. And I’m now morally compelled to oppose them. The Nazi card has been played too much, and it has gone way too far.
So, yes, Russia attacked its neighbours many many many times. We gave coexistence a chance from 1989 to 2022. It’s over. We cannot tolerate a West = Nazi rhetoric bolstered by nuclear threat. Not any more.
Iran just made its choice as to where it is standing. It stands with Russia and China. So be it. The world is splitting apart. The UN will end. That “multipolarity”, not of the good kind, will end up being a Cold War for natural ressources.
Nobody should want that. But we cannot comply with Russian diktats emboldened by a West = Nazi rhetoric.
I am not ready to comply.
“”All caused by your friends, the leftist Nazis.”
Stop calling “leftists” Nazis. In the mouth of people like you, I, a centre-right dude, am a leftist. And a Nazi.”
It’s my reaction to history distortion calling it extreme right, while clearly being the opposite. Strange that no one attacks me on the content of that post in which I gave the explanation for being so.
You may sound extreme now and then and share some leftist ideology. But that is what it is, you lack elements to be a typical leftist. You’re not a Nazi as far as I can tell.
Many leftists however have a true Nazi mentality; times are changing and this cancer is popping up; our governments, our education and our media are seriously infiltrated with leftism, it’s a complete disaster.
It’s often these Gutmenschen that, in their correctness, have a deep underlying hate against ‘dissidents’. Hate and restriction of freedom go hand in hand, hate and war as no exception.
So I use the term as a wake up call for rookies here to start realising that it’s their own freedom (to begin with) being taken away by left authoritarianism. It has covertly infiltrated the West in the past decades. And we slept.
Western despotism btw is one of the problems that criminal Putin describes as a problem with the West; I’m not backing up this criminal, but western colonialisation of antique ideas in a new coat is not what the Russians are waiting for.
“I’m fed up by this moral highjacking of words that imply that I’m a legit target for elimination.”
Since when are leftists threatened by individualists?
“Quit that kind of talk ASAP.”
I’m just an individualist that needs to be left alone. If others quit undermining my freedom by the authoritarian system they support that takes away my rights, I quit this talk. If they don’t, I won’t.
“It’s my reaction to history distortion calling it extreme right, while clearly being the opposite.”
Still with the lie about nazis despite all the evidence you’re view is wrong. You are a consistent liar, but still nothing more than a liar.
“It’s my reaction to history distortion calling it extreme right”
That’s not historical distortion. The nazis were extreme right.
Your denialism is disgusting. Utterly disgusting. Calling centre-right dudes like me nazis just because you’re annoyed that the extreme right in France or the Netherlands is called the extreme right ?
Go kill yourself.
That’s what I indiscriminately accepted too. But this is no more then a distortion of reality.
A yes and no discussion however is useless.
So I invite you to read my response @Orac, April 25, 2022 at 8:21 am
Feel free to reply and give your motivation why you don’t agree.
Further I’m not so much denying. I’m describing some history instead of repeating misleading propaganda.
“Calling centre-right dudes like me nazis”
Huh? Where? Take a good night sleep.
“just because you’re annoyed that the extreme right in France or the Netherlands is called the extreme right”
Leftist governments with extreme ideas, that’s the problem. Loosing your freedom, property, even your will, is what pops up from them. Damnit, read. And then accept.
I don’t keep repeating, time to do your own research here.
“Calling centre-right dudes like me nazis” — me
“Huh? Where? Take a good night sleep.” — you
Lavrov says it. All Putin suckers tend to more or less explicitly say it. Like you do. With varying degrees of rabidity.
So, honestly, go kill yourself.
I’m fed up by the kind of double talk you are pushing.
The rhetoric about this war indeed is West = Nazis. Lavrov says so explicitly.
And you’re telling us that we should “talk” with these people.
“Go kill yourself.”
I gotta say, I’m +1 for that. Bloody vomit has more humanity than the Lucas turd. A lot more honest too.
@Lucas Interesting thing is that you yourself speak abour leftist war on property. Nazis were all for German property.
German econimic history during Nazis is well known Read it.
[…] Unfortunately, Great Barrington Declaration supporters, despite their constant claims of “persecution” and being “silenced,” basically won the PR and policy battle. In 2020, its authors easily gained access to the highest levels of government in the US and Europe to argue against “lockdowns,” and Jeffrey Tucker left the AIER to spawn another right wing think tank, the Brownstone Institute, which he lovingly characterized as the “spiritual child” of the Great Barrington Declaration and for which he recruited Martin Kulldorff as scientific director. AIER, Brownstone Institute, and a host of other “free market” anti-regulation astroturf rapidly became the new merchants of doubt about public health and struck back at critics who pointed out the connections between right wing think tanks and anti-public health activities increasingly linked to the far right and its media ecosystem. […]
“Ah, so you’re not nearly as old as you had implied.”
Apparently not, depending on your definition of old. But old enough for ‘helicoptering’, that part doesn’t work well when younger.
“I know where my good friend’s father was during the the war. He was tiny infant, orphaned, raised by his grandmother. His brother was a POW.”
Was he captured by the Japanese?
“Both of them eventually moved to the US. The kindest, gentlest people you’d ever meet. Good sense of humor, too.
But you could see what the war and post-war had done to them.”
That generation is now almost gone and it’s a shame.
“And he was a very progressive guy, supporting gay rights (all of them, not just the “some” you talk about), and women’s rights, raising a strong, independent daughter and a kind, caring, nurturing son.”
Instead of focussing on gay rights I would prefer we focus on human rights in general. Black, yellow, white, red, man, woman, child, the elderly, minorities, the unvaccinated, children working in factories and the list should go on and on. Shouldn’t that be ‘inclusivity’?
Like I said, I hate the propaganda around gays and the like. Why this zooming in constantly? Are they angels? Or are they just misused for grubby purposes? It’s the latter for sure and as a result the reason that if you say something about it, you get spitting fire in return. Then you know enough.
I’m not always so keen on progressiveness as you seem to be. Were we so wrong in the past? Why? And what proof do we have this time we’ll do a better job? But for sure progressiveness can be a good thing too. It all depends.
“You didn’t experience any of those terrible things, you were born long after the post-war famine.”
True, but not really that long if you relate it f.e. to the quality of products incl. food, or to housing, to your toys (hardly any), to war scrap, etc. And what matters: to the people that lived through and survived the war. Back then that was everyone except children and teenagers. What happened in the war could still be felt and heard first hand.
“So I mis-spoke when I said you wanted to go back to war-torn Europe.”
Can happen, no problem.
“You want to go back to a time that never existed, when men were men (strong, aggressive, dominate, authoritarian) and women were women (soft, submissive, silent, weak), and everyone strictly adhered to the gender rolls of their culture, no matter the cost.”
Now why should a man per definition be aggressive or authoritarian? You call such traits manly? I’d rather call them man unworthy, low. There should be a difference between a man and an asshole.
There is nothing wrong with natural dominance however, be it based on knowledge, intelligence, experience, certain skills, power, possessions, money even.
Unfortunately many young women choose not so perfect a partner. These girls in general seem interested in dominance by nature, unfortunately they don’t they recognise the wrong sort.
“Why can’t a man express his feminine, nurturing side as a parent?” You tell me, I have no idea why not. I sacrificed exactly 10 years of my life nurturing a relative due to medical mistakes; that’s why I can be here from time to time; the whole day partly in such a setting and the other behind the many screens, isn’t that funny.
And if you define intuition and sensitivity as female, I consider myself privileged to be partly feminine. You don’t need a regular job working for nothing to begin with.
I don’t think soft, submissive, silent, weak is typical female. Physical strength is definately limited in comparison; if you disagree you tell me why I hardly see women in construction or as garbage (wo)man.
I wouldn’t know why submission is per definition a bad thing. I’m more then happy if someone else takes the lead, be it a woman or a man. Two captains on the same boat won’t work anyway, so I’m happy to be submissive and do as I’m asked. Submission to good leadership is a blessing, if you ask me. As for “silent”, as long as I don’t have a bitch in front of me, I’m fine.
From what I’ve seen, women should be more careful then men to avoid negative results for themselves.
“Why can’t a woman express her masculine, assertive side as a breadwinner?” If a masculin side is necessary at all, why not? As long as you don’t get a burnout, fine. When you get older you’ll see that it’s not a matter of gender, but of energy. Playing a role for a long time can be depleting. And personally I would have felt fine, I guess, to have a breadwinner when I was young. Not that society (men and women) would have appreciated that, but what the heck.
“To deny individuals the expression of their whole selves is harmful to society.” I agree and worse: it’s harmful to yourself. Unfortunately sorrows gradually take over these “whole selves”.
“You are the one who wants to trap people in little boxes. Not me.” What little box and why would I want to?
“No, I will not shut up. You have no power over me. I will not be silenced by something as utterly irrelevant as some guy on the internet”
Just like I will not be blamed for wanting to go back to war-torn Europe, iow for death and destruction. It’s one of the miseries I’m rather trying to prevent; 1 – 1.
“who wants everyone to get sick with preventable diseases”
I’m all ears if you have a safe medicin that does prevent diseases. I’m not interested in a politicized medical treatment that isn’t and doesn’t.
“And lies copiously about everything to try to prop up his heinous ideas.”
I don’t need lies, as far as I’m aware.
What I would do if I expect a lie is to ask questions, analyse the answer and go deeper. A liar falls through the basket. Or, in most cases, he simply doesn’t answer the question.
Now you tell me what did I lie about? How do you want me to give you proof?
“You offer no citations, only shouting. And quite frankly, you are boring, saying nothing I haven’t heard a dozen times before.”
So that we can start a war of links and don’t take responsibility ourselves? No, if you think you know, you explain yourself. I can do my own reading, but here I’d like to hear your wisdom and opinion, not someone else’s.
Of course this endless repetition is boring, especially for me. But repetition is one of the best ways to convey a thought. Next, many here bring up the same subject over and over again, while I try to respond to all. And I know that I what I’ve said about some elements of the future will be correct, no matter how absurd it may sound. And unpopular or not, you cannot say afterwards that it came as a surprise.
“Instead of focussing on gay rights I would prefer we focus on human rights in general.”
If people hadn’t been bent on locking gays in psych wards, which happened in my country till 1992 on the plane of principles, we perhaps could be talking about gay rights and human rights independently.
Unfortunately, the weight of history makes it clear: gay rights and human rights cannot be separated. Because gays were jailed without any form of due process in psych wards.
Moreover, what we are now seeing are totalitarian states like China and Russia as well as a big chunk of Central Asia spicing up their war rhetoric against us, the West, on the grounds that we are gay.
When I “talk” (as you suggest) with people from these countries on the net, the bottom line, I’m sorry to say, is that they wish to kill us, the West, because we are nazis and gays.
World War 3 is a war on homosexuality. On gay West. Not me saying it. It’s them.
If they want to start raining nukes on us, I’m fine with it. They won’t be spared.
“Like I said, I hate the propaganda around gays and the like.”
It’s the reality you hate, just like you hate them.
@Lucas: “It’s one of the miseries I’m rather trying to prevent”
Your grandiose narcissism is a terminal bore.
““It’s my reaction to history distortion calling it extreme right, while clearly being the opposite.”
Still with the lie about nazis despite all the evidence you’re view is wrong. You are a consistent liar, but still nothing more than a liar.”
What evidence, where?
Isn’t it time you quit this dirty technique of yours?
And now you’re a statistician? That’s great. Now you can finally comment these statisticians.
You do understand the content, don’t you?
“What evidence, where?”
He already gave it to you.
With denialists in terms of science, I consider the discussion to be open.
With denialists twisting words to claim I’m a nazi, like you and Putin do, I do not bother talking.
I’m fine with war.
@Narad, more likely Cabernet Sauvignon or Moscato.
Personally, I’ve never tried a wine at a Korean restaurant. But I don’t dine out with wine much anyway.
The Korean joints “around here” are either BYOB or offer beer and soju.
I see now, though, that I forgot to mention Hongeo. I suppose the pairing would be whatever one serves with very overripe Camembert.
What evidence, where?
The cited articles you dismissed because they were from “liberal sources”. The real issue for you, of course, was as it always is: the science is in completely disagreement with your ignorance.
Stop lying, stop ignoring science, history, and facts. You won’t be called on being a liar and science denier.
Have been for a long time. Never said otherwise. Robustness and modeling.
That’s great. Now you can finally comment these statisticians.
The statistical summaries, from people who are really statisticians and experts in the field, support the things I and the others here say. You’ve never cited anyone or given any links, just said “it’s out there if you look” — the classic dodge of someone with no support for their assertions. Just as is the case for your doom-and-gloom conspiracies.
So, as usual, you have nothing to support your BS.
“in completely disagreement”? FucK.
Excuse the shaky hand typing.
Oh, didn’t I?
Well, here we go again:
See this too if you like, easier to read too:
This paper starts with saying that to do risk benefit analysis of COVID vaccines, you should consider all cause mortality. Does that make any sense ? You should,of course, consider vaccine mortality
Those study authors are mostly electronic engineers/computer scientists. Whilst they may well be capable of performing the required mathematics, they have no authority behind their conclusions.
Therefore, I feel quite comfortable in ignoring everything they say unless it’s repeated by actual medical statistical authority. In exactly the same way that I would ignore the staff at McDonald’s when it comes to wine marriage with Korean food.
I’d guess mostly rosé until the pork belly and mackerel make an appearance, no?
“I’d guess mostly rosé until the pork belly and mackerel make an appearance, no?”
I’ve read that the kimchi makes it difficult, particularly with reds. Assuming you have a sophisticated palate that is. Luckily, I don’t. Apparently sparkling wine does a good job.
““It’s one of the miseries I’m rather trying to prevent”
Your grandiose narcissism is a terminal bore.”
Your abnormality is called ‘captious’.
And you’re not the only vituperator here.
@troll: “Your abnormality is called ‘captious’.”
Oh noes, let me clutch my pearls!
Tell us if you’ve not heard this one a million times before:
Evidence or GTFO.
Nobody here cares what you believe, only what you can prove. And all you prove is that you are full of shit.
Since you cannot and will not cite evidence for any of your bombastic babble, despite our numerous invitations to back up your claims with links to hard facts, you can proceed to FO. /plonk
“Calling centre-right dudes like me nazis” — me
“Huh? Where? Take a good night sleep.” — you
Lavrov says it. All Putin suckers tend to more or less explicitly say it. Like you do. With varying degrees of rabidity.
So, honestly, go kill yourself.
I’m fed up by the kind of double talk you are pushing.
The rhetoric about this war indeed is West = Nazis. Lavrov says so explicitly.
And you’re telling us that we should “talk” with these people.
NO WAY! Unlike you I’m politically neutral; which means I cannot be complicit. Consider the option too. I’ve got clean hands, yours are already dirty. Human but foolish.
“Kill em, kill em all” – Enemy of the State; F68.10 you’re an aggressor.
US and England – aggressive
China – aggressive
Nato – aggressive
Even most of you guys here are aggressive. Have you ever wondered what’s the cause of all this absurd aggression? Of course you haven’t. Then it’s time that you do.
There is no furure in aggression neither for aggressors. I would be carefull if I were you, as you’re literally playing with fire.
“Go kill yourself”. That’s what you’re doing already. You just don’t realise it yet. Fool. Make a change while you still can.
“NO WAY! Unlike you I’m politically neutral.”
You are not. You’re absolutely not neutral. You’re taking a stand recycling Putin’s talking points. You have no values worth defending except cowardice.
“I’ve got clean hands, yours are already dirty.”
MY hands are dirty ?? Say that again…
““Kill em, kill em all” – Enemy of the State; F68.10 you’re an aggressor.”
Nope. We should go for containment. Brutal containment. Severe diplomacy to offset Russian influence. To the level of arm-twisting. We are under attack, here. Not the other way round. And I do not care about your relativistic BS.
Containment. And clear as day mutually assured destruction.
“Even most of you guys here are aggressive. Have you ever wondered what’s the cause of all this absurd aggression? Of course you haven’t. Then it’s time that you do.”
More relativistic BS. We KNOW what is the reason. cf. Kennan’s long telegram. Nothing has changed since then. Putin has been waging war on the West since roughly 2004. While denying it. You’re bolstering that denialism.
It’s now time to start to stop lying.
“There is no future in aggression neither for aggressors. I would be carefull if I were you, as you’re literally playing with fire.”
Careful with WHAT ?? You very obviously have no clue how death threats work. Putin is issuing death threats. Turn the other cheek ? Again ? Doesn’t work with Putin.
I go for “a head for an eye”. That’s clear.
“That’s what you’re doing already [“Go kill yourself”]. You just don’t realise it yet. Fool. Make a change while you still can.”
You’re dumb. There is no backing down. Your bullshitty talk akin to that of a pseudo-rational psychiatrist is not binding on me. Never will be.
There is no surrendering to bullies of the kind of Putin. We’ll have to go for the fight.
Bring on the nukes.
And stop whining about your petty little comfort.
Ask the Poles what complacency with Russia costs. You’ll rather be dead. Or you have no self-esteem.
Honestly, mate, trolly-troll’s only here to push our buttons as long as we let it.
“Some people just need killing.” — Barry Eisler
“If people hadn’t been bent on locking gays in psych wards, which happened in my country till 1992 on the plane of principles, we perhaps could be talking about gay rights and human rights independently.”
Perhaps there were underlying mental illnesses as well? Or practiced paedophilia? Whatever, it’s now 30 years later; time to move beacons. I’m sure you agree that now we should focus on child rigths (irt abuse, labour), rights regarding nutrition, welfare, fresh air, anitivaxx rights, rights to live a peaceful life, rights to have a good affordable home. Much more serious then this gay charade we have going on. Just quit this nonsense please.
“Unfortunately, the weight of history makes it clear: gay rights and human rights cannot be separated. Because gays were jailed without any form of due process in psych wards.”
If so, that’s a long time ago. And like you say it, gay rights cannot be seperated; this is why we should focus on human rights and stop the propaganda abuse.
“Moreover, what we are now seeing are totalitarian states like China and Russia as well as a big chunk of Central Asia spicing up their war rhetoric against us, the West, on the grounds that we are gay.”
It’s what irritates them at most. Just like criticism on the persecution of minorities, like Uyghurs, irritates the Chinese.
What China and Russia are definately mad about is interference in what they consider as their matters. Land grabbing in their region as an example.
They’re not too keen on western dominance either. Like Xi said: “Rules made by one or more countries should not be forced upon others.”
Not that I take a stand, but for sure these countries don’t like to be sanctioned. It rises tensions.
US control of trade flows is another sting. They need the dollar but hate its dominance, as it has given the US the free lunch they haven’t payed for.
“When I “talk” (as you suggest) with people from these countries on the net, the bottom line, I’m sorry to say, is that they wish to kill us, the West, because we are nazis and gays.”
But you don’t start a war over such irritations.
“World War 3 is a war on homosexuality. On gay West. Not me saying it. It’s them.”
They may say so, but what you suggest makes no sense. That different views on morality attribute to tensions, fine.
“If they want to start raining nukes on us, I’m fine with it. They won’t be spared.”
Not that I would complain much if that nuke fell right on my head; but to be dead isn’t the same as to die.
“Perhaps there were underlying mental illnesses as well?”
Oh fuck you.
All this whiny talk about vaccine freedom, and then legitimising locking up gays in the name of homosexuality being an illness.
You’re a very sick twisted fuck.
“”NO WAY! Unlike you I’m politically neutral.”
You are not. You’re absolutely not neutral. You’re taking a stand recycling Putin’s talking points. You have no values worth defending except cowardice.”
If not, it means that I made a serious mistake. Perhaps I should change tunes here then, as taking a stand is obviously and absolutely NOT my intention.
Yes, I’m the same coward that locks Russian friends of mine for 6 or 7 years in prison without any sort of honest trial. Or the coward that was shot in WW-2 by my neighbours, while with one signature he could have walked away. You still have no idea, do you?
The thing I care about is to know what’s exactly behind this war and avoid blind sailing on just my own thoughts; which means that, unlike you, I’m looking at arguments at both sides. No matter if these are true, just fears, irritation, land grabbing, NWO, rational or irrational, about moral standards like you mention, whatever. The reason I want to have as bright a picture as possible is because that what has caused this war, will probably solve it through negotiation and resulting solution. This will not be a war like past world wars, it cannot be.
And it’s not about investing at the right moment this time. No, the end of this war could likely be the beginning of what I mentioned frequently here – unexpected worldwide chaos, ending in destruction. Seems logic, but impossible to be sure.
““I’ve got clean hands, yours are already dirty.”
MY hands are dirty ?? Say that again…”
F68.10, everyone taking a side in politics and choosing side in one of its conflicts, basically has dirty hands. It is shit at both sides without exception, so be careful not to stink.
Stay away from deceitful politics. And it’s a sinking ship anyway.
““Kill em, kill em all” – Enemy of the State; F68.10 you’re an aggressor.”
Nope. We should go for containment. Brutal containment. Severe diplomacy to offset Russian influence. To the level of arm-twisting. We are under attack, here. Not the other way round. And I do not care about your relativistic BS.
Containment. And clear as day mutually assured destruction.”
Containment? These Russians have shown to be diehards. Nevertheless it seems the course the West has chosen, even directly from the start of the conflict. That immediate and coordinated action surprised me. No discussion, as if it was agreed upon beforehand. Was it? Huge commercial interests or not, just ended rücksichtslos! Lost business is lost business, just can’t gain that back.
What will be China’s role? Remain on the sidelines? Do you expect all these cutoff commercial interests will be continued by them? And with regards to your ‘containment’, how will the West respond to that if the Chinese would?
““Even most of you guys here are aggressive. Have you ever wondered what’s the cause of all this absurd aggression? Of course you haven’t. Then it’s time that you do.”
More relativistic BS. We KNOW what is the reason. cf. Kennan’s long telegram. Nothing has changed since then. Putin has been waging war on the West since roughly 2004. While denying it. You’re bolstering that denialism.”
I wouldn’t be surprised if this is a setup in order to achieve NWO goals. Ment as distraction, leading to shortages, used as fear factor etc. so it can meanwhile continue. Simply don’t know.
“It’s now time to start to stop lying.”
“”There is no future in aggression neither for aggressors. I would be carefull if I were you, as you’re literally playing with fire.”
Careful with WHAT ?? You very obviously have no clue how death threats work. Putin is issuing death threats. Turn the other cheek ? Again ? Doesn’t work with Putin.”
Putin this, Putin that. Is this even about Putin? Yes if he’s in the way of UN plans, like I imagine Trump was. Or he’s a veiled part of it. Not possible for me to tell. Not that it really matters.
“I go for “a head for an eye”. That’s clear.”
Yes, it is.
“”That’s what you’re doing already [“Go kill yourself”]. You just don’t realise it yet. Fool. Make a change while you still can.”
You’re dumb. There is no backing down. Your bullshitty talk akin to that of a pseudo-rational psychiatrist is not binding on me. Never will be.”
There’s no backing down. You’re right, however not my point. I’m not talking how we could end this conflict, on the contrary. I was talking to you.
Our worlds differ, I believe in evil and you don’t. We already discussed that.
“There is no surrendering to bullies of the kind of Putin. We’ll have to go for the fight.
Bring on the nukes.”
There cannot be a WW-3 like WW-2. It’s not gonna happen.
“And stop whining about your petty little comfort.
Ask the Poles what complacency with Russia costs. You’ll rather be dead. Or you have no self-esteem.”
Dead is not a problem.
I don’t care much about my comfort, it will be short lived anyway. Just like yours.
“If not, it means that I made a serious mistake. Perhaps I should change tunes here then, as taking a stand is obviously and absolutely NOT my intention.”
Drop the nonsense.
All the Putin suckers make it their favourite game to claim they are neutral or even supporting Ukraine !!
“See ? I gave two cents. I’m supporting Ukraine. But Zelensky is the one that should surrender. But I did give 2 cents for humanitarian support for Ukraine. There was a little box on the counter at the gas station where I pumped my car full of ukrainian blood. I did support Ukraine’s humanitarian effort and Zelensky must stop the war !!!”
That kind of putinista rhetoric, I hear it all the time. I’m fed up.
And I’m hearing it from you.
So go kill yourself.
All the more after what you wrote about homosexuality.
Correction: Yes, I’m the same coward as Russian friends of mine that are imprisoned for 6 or 7 years without an honest trial.
“Correction: Yes, I’m the same coward as Russian friends of mine that are imprisoned for 6 or 7 years without an honest trial.”
After all the shit you spouted, if you dare play the victim card, provide evidence of who they are, under what jurisdiction are they allegedly tortured, the claims authorities brought forward, and the evidence that vindicate your implicit claim that due process was not done.
Otherwise, you’re a crybaby.
And a sick twisted fuck.
I had a theory that some of the BS we were seeing on here was Russian disinfo assholes coming here to hone their crap before unleashing it on the less sophisticated. I’m more convinced than ever.