Antivaccine nonsense Holocaust Medicine

The annals of “I’m not antivaccine,” part 29: “Vacciphilia” and child grooming

Kim Rossi of the antivaccine blog Age of Autism compares vaccination to child grooming by pedophiles. But don’t call her “antivaccine.”

Antivaxxers frequently go to great lengths to claim that they are “not antivaccine,” that, in reality, they are “vaccine safety advocates” or activists for “medical freedom” or “parental rights.” However, the language that they use to describe vaccines, more often than not, gives the game away. Whether they’re comparing vaccine mandates to the Holocaust, to rape, to human trafficking. Some even compare “victims” of vaccines to the Disappeared. And don’t get me started on how antivaxxers describe provaccine advocates. For instance, the other day I saw Kim Rossi (Kim Stagliano) insinuating that provaccine advocates are pedophiles in a post entitled The Grooming of Children By the Vacciphilia Public Health and Pediatric Machine. Rossi begins by attacking Dr. Nicole Baldwin, an Ohio pediatrician who was in the news recently after she made a Tik Tok video that went viral.

Here’s the video:

@drnicolebaldwin Vaccines save bro #vaccinate #vaccinateurkids #pediatrician #doctor mamadoctorjones

♬ Original Sound – Unknown

It’s a cute video. Tik Tok, of course, is not my thing, and the only time I ever tried to do a Tik Tok video, it was about puppies, of course. Noting that Dr. Baldwin had been attacked after her video went viral, Ms. Rossi writes:

We’re used to being attacked. I’ve had my name dragged through the mud on the front page of a major US daily newspaper. I’ve gotten threatening emails. I even had to contact a blog company to ask a vehement, well known SkepDoc to remove a cartoon that clearly advocated for violence toward me. And the blog company complied. That was the end of it. I did not opine on social media that I felt threatened or scared or violated. I took care of the issue.

That bit about Harriet Hall intrigued me. I know Harriet personally. I’ve worked with her for 12 years on my not-so-super-secret other blog. Somehow, I very much doubt that she ever posted a cartoon threatening violence against anyone. One also notes: What blog company? The blog that she and I contribute to is a basic WordPress blog. The hosting company is a basic web hosting company, not a social media company, which is unlikely to to anything about any content posted, unless it’s illegal.

Be that as it may, it’s nice that Ms. Rossi apparently doesn’t feel threatened by online abuse. I have a pretty thick skin these days, having been subject to online abuse going back 15 years and even more, but even I don’t just brush it off. Not all of us have that luxury and privilege. Moreover, what’s been happening to Dr. Brown goes beyond the occasional nasty email. Indeed, here’s Dr. Baldwin on her Facebook page describing the abuse:


And here’s a news story from Cincinnati, where Dr. Baldwin lives and practices:

Nicole Baldwin, a pediatrician working in suburban Cincinnati, posted a TIkTok video encouraging vaccination on Twitter Saturday evening.

It took less than 24 hours for the video to go viral on both TikTok, a video sharing app, and Twitter – and just another 48 hours before Baldwin was facing backlash from hundreds of thousands of people associated with the anti-vaccine movement.


Commenters across Baldwin’s social media platforms insulted her, referred to vaccines as “poison” and suggested Baldwin was being paid to promote vaccination. One commenter wrote, “Dead doctors don’t lie.” People then flocked to her Yelp and Google Review pages, leaving one-star reviews in an attempt to sabotage Baldwin’s ratings.

“I think in this day and age, Google reviews and Yelp reviews are king,” Baldwin told The Enquirer. “And I think that that is the goal for a lot of these people: to hurt my livelihood, to damage my reputation because I believe something different than they do. And it is frightening.”

By Tuesday, people started calling Baldwin’s practice and harassing the staff. When a woman called on Wednesday threatening to “shut the practice down,” the office had to call the police. Deerfield Township police, where Baldwin has a satellite office, said they’re investigating.

These are longstanding techniques of antivaxxers as well, particularly against provaccine physicians. They flood their Facebook pages, but, worse, they post fake reviews on physician review sites such as Yelp, Google,, and Healthgrades. Worse still, none of these companies seem to have much of a system for getting fake reviews removed. Indeed, there are a number of such reviews on these sites about me. They’re easy to spot. They generally don’t confirm that they were a patient, and they almost always use words like “arrogant,” “dismissive,” or “uncaring.” The really obvious ones mention my social media and/or blogging activity. (I never mention my online hobbies to patients unless the patient asks me about them or mentions them first, which isn’t very often and hasn’t happened in some time.) Basically, there’s little or nothing doctors can do about these reviews, to the point where one of my fans once suggested posting reviews that are so totally positive that it’s obvious they’re fake, as a ploy to illustrate why these sites are basically useless as a means of determining who is and isn’t a good doctor. As for contacting doctors at their practices, I’ve certainly been on the receiving end of that. There was even chatter on an antivaccine Facebook page among antivaxxes about showing up at my cancer center to “protest” me, complete with signs.

That aside, let’s just say that Ms. Rossi is not a fan of Dr. Baldwin’s Tik Tok video and online activities:

I took a look at Dr. Baldwin’s Tik Tok video (TikTok is the leading destination for short-form mobile video. Our mission is to inspire creativity and bring joy), in which she uses a catchy tune to shimmy and wiggle her way into children’s hearts to make sure they get vaccinated. You’d think she was auditioning for “America’s Got Vaccines.” In the video, she specifically tells them that “vaccines don’t cause autism.” Huh? do you really think children are thinking about this at all? How does a Mom of 2 small kids, an adult son and a teenage daughter and busy pediatrician have time to make videos complete with graphics, wardrobe and makeup, and don’t forget the prop stethoscope casually tossed over the shoulder?

Children might not be thinking of the myth peddled by antivaxxers that vaccines cause autism, but you can be sure that many of their parents do. Ms. Rossi knows this, of course, but she’s emphasizing children because Tik Tok is perceived as a platform primarily for children and teens. That’s been true in the past but is changing. Heck, I sometimes peruse Tik Tok now, although I must confess that there’s a certain sameness to many of the videos that leads me to rapidly become bored. Be that as it may, how can parents not be concerned about vaccines, given how unfortunately successful antivaxxers have been in promoting the myth that vaccines cause autism and all sorts of other health conditions and diseases?

As for Ms. Rossi’s last question, it’s just a variant of an antivaccine attack I’ve been experiencing since the very beginning: How does a busy physician have time to blog so prolifically? It’s an old antivaccine ploy designed to call into question the competence of physicians who engage in social media to communicate science by implying that they are spending too much time online and not enough time doctoring. It’s a tired, obvious, annoying, and fallacious attack that was old when I first started blogging 15 years ago. I suspect that when the first physician started combatting pseudoscience and antivaccine misinformation on BBS forums in the 1980s, some troll started claiming that they must be a crappy doctor given that they spend so much time online.

Let’s get to the heart of the issue, though. Note the word vacciphilia and how it’s a construct that resembles the word “pedophilia.” More importantly, note the use of the word “grooming.” What is grooming? It’s a strategy of pedophiles; there’s even a Wikipedia entry for it. Ms. Rossi makes that analogy quite explicit, too:

She is GROOMING children to brainwash them into the cult of Church of the Immaculate Vaccination. Grooming is when someone builds a relationship, trust and emotional connection with a child or young person so they can manipulate, exploit and abuse them. Make no bones about it. The entire public health and pediatric playbook looks disgustingly like GROOMING. For medical means, not sexual. The technique is parallel. The thought is repugnant, of course. But the techniques used to bring children into the Vacciphilia world are frighteningly similar to those used by abusers.

Anybody can be a groomer, no matter their age, gender or race. Grooming can take place over a short or long period of time – from weeks to years. Groomers may also build a relationship with the young person’s family or friends to make them seem trustworthy or authoritative.

A groomer can use the same sites, games and apps as young people, spending time learning about a young person’s interests and use this to build a relationship with them. Source:

Note that that source also points out, “Children and young people who are groomed can be sexually abused, exploited or trafficked.” Yes, grooming is a tactic used by those who abuse and exploit children to gain their trust in order to sexually abuse them or to subject them to other forms of abuse. Now note again Ms. Rossi’s made up word “vacciphilia.” It’s not a coincidence that she added “philia” to “vaccine” in a manner meant to remind people of the word “pedophilia.” She is quite explicitly likening Dr. Baldwin and pro-vaccine pediatricians to pedophiles. It’s not an accident, and it’s quite intentional and by design.

Subtle, Ms. Rossi is not. She never has been. After all, she’s the one who coined the word vaccinianity to liken vaccine science to a religion and provaccine advocates to religious zealots, either unaware or unconcerned that Holocaust deniers do the same thing, frequently using the term “Holocaustianity.”

And what is the purpose of this vaccine “grooming”? According to Ms. Rossi, it’s a secret plot to groom children to be vaccinated once laws are passed allowing children be vaccinated without parental consent:

Let’s talk about “no secrets.” There is legislation in play in New York and elsewhere that would allow your minor children to Wiki Howget vaccinated in school without your permission.

Vaccines For Kids? New D.C. Bill Would Allow Minors To Get Shots Without Parental Consent

Georgia vaccine bill could allow minors to receive vaccinations without parental consent

New York Bill To Allow Kids to Get Vaccinated Without Parental Consent

That is a huge medical SECRET. Look at this vulgar entry in “Wiki-how”:

This leads Ms. Rossi to try to appear “reasonable” by appealing to everyone, even provaccine parents:

Regardless of one’s position on vaccination: to fully vaccinate, partially or not at all, surely these hardcore sales techniques should give us all cause to stop and question the motives of how and why vaccination and only vaccination has become the holy grail of healthcare for children when they face so many other life threatening day to day health and mental health issues.

Of course, Ms. Rossi’s “reasonableness” is undermined by how she started her post and likened provaccine advocacy to child grooming, basically not-so-subtly comparing provaccine pediatricians and the “entire public health and pediatric” complex to groomers who facilitate child sexual abuse. Yes, she compared them to pedophiles. She gives the game away right from the start, and at the end frames the issue as a battle between pedophile-like vaccine child abusers and “reasonable,” “freedom-loving” people. One also can’t help but note that Dr. Baldwin never said anything whatsoever about whether she agrees with these proposed laws to allow certain minors to be vaccinated without parental consent or whether children should deceive their parents in order to do so. Ms. Rossi pulled that association between the two out of her posterior based solely on Dr. Baldwin’s production of a provaccine Tik Tok video that went viral.

Certainly the genius commenters at Age of Autism got the analogy instantly. If the comments are any indication, they enthusiastically approve, as well. For instance, after a commenter with the ‘nym Eindecker complains about the analogy and hopes that Dr. Brown sues Ms. Rossi, she doubles down:

Hi John. I disagree. The technique is what I am bringing to light. I think this Tik Tok Cutesy vaccine mascot trend is parallel to grooming. Lie to your parents, kids. Do this in secret. I stand by my opinion.

And a commenter annie:

Whoops, spelled that last ‘their’ incorrectly, so while I’m here, would like to remind Eindeker of the late Beau Biden. One of his heroic acts before he passed was to finally jail a serial pediatrician pedophile; remember the criminal who molested the woman’s gymnastics team? The molestation of our youth from criminals peddling ‘health’ poses an absolute risk to our population, and Pharma training practitioners to encourage children to get secretly vaccinated and usurping parents by aiming their add campaigns (ie Tik Tok) at children is dangerous.

And Rtp:

“You are likening a paediatrician to a child groomer”

Good one Eindecker. Because as we all know, not one vaccine skeptic in history has ever been accused of child abuse by you vaccine nazis.

The difference is that we are actually on solid ground here.

Refusing to poison our children for zero benefit is most assuredly *not* child abuse. However, poisoning children and then teaching them to keep critical medical information away from their parents is absolutely 100% child abuse. What happens if something goes wrong? Will the doctor take responsibility?


Never in a million years.

All pediatricians should be in prison.

And Bill:

From the anti-forced-psychiatric-drugging crowd, we have the PERFECT phrase for what the GROOMERS of PhRMA are doing to our children:
Forced Vaxxes are NEEDLE RAPE, and pro-forced vaxxers are needle rapers…..
Needle rape is forcing anybody to accept any syringe injection, or other sharp delivery device, without FULL, INFORMED consent. And, telling folks that “vaxxes don’t cause autism” is blatantly false, when the taxpayer funded Vaxx Injury Compensation Court has paid monetary awards for vaxx injury, including vaxxes causing autism.
And I think “Eindecker” is WRONG! Grooming of children is grooming of children, whether for sexual abuse or needle rape…..
KEEP UP the GOOD WORK, People!

Comparing vaccination to rape is a favorite trope among antivaxxers. It’s also a particularly vile comparison, although I’m starting to think that Ms. Rossi’s comparison is even more vile than that. It’s hard to choose. To antivaxxers,

Laura Hayes also noticed the similarity between Ms. Rossi’s post and her previous comparisons:

Kim, thank you for this report. Grooming indeed. Reminds me of my article from a few years ago, titled “Vaccine Trafficking”, which goes hand in hand with your article above:

Vaccine grooming and vaccine trafficking are aimed at all ages. Potential victims, namely every person on the planet, beware. Then, get busy fighting to regain our right to refuse vaccinations:

Should Dr. Nicole Baldwin read this article and these comments, I would urge her to watch or read my “Why Is This Legal” presentation:

I wrote about Ms. Hayes’ brain dead analogy between vaccination and human trafficking soon after she wrote it.

Most antivaxxers deny that they are, in fact, antivaccine, to the point where I almost have a grudging admiration for antivaxxers who come right out and admit that they are antivaccine. Instead, they try to portray themselves as “vaccine safety advocates” or people defending “medical freedom” or “parental rights” or “choice” because they know that society quite correctly disapproves of antivaccine advocates. However, if you look at what they write and say, even in public for general consumption, they always give the game away by comparing vaccination to rape, the Holocaust, human trafficking, and now child grooming by pedophiles.

By Orac

Orac is the nom de blog of a humble surgeon/scientist who has an ego just big enough to delude himself that someone, somewhere might actually give a rodent's posterior about his copious verbal meanderings, but just barely small enough to admit to himself that few probably will. That surgeon is otherwise known as David Gorski.

That this particular surgeon has chosen his nom de blog based on a rather cranky and arrogant computer shaped like a clear box of blinking lights that he originally encountered when he became a fan of a 35 year old British SF television show whose special effects were renowned for their BBC/Doctor Who-style low budget look, but whose stories nonetheless resulted in some of the best, most innovative science fiction ever televised, should tell you nearly all that you need to know about Orac. (That, and the length of the preceding sentence.)

DISCLAIMER:: The various written meanderings here are the opinions of Orac and Orac alone, written on his own time. They should never be construed as representing the opinions of any other person or entity, especially Orac's cancer center, department of surgery, medical school, or university. Also note that Orac is nonpartisan; he is more than willing to criticize the statements of anyone, regardless of of political leanings, if that anyone advocates pseudoscience or quackery. Finally, medical commentary is not to be construed in any way as medical advice.

To contact Orac: [email protected]

106 replies on “The annals of “I’m not antivaccine,” part 29: “Vacciphilia” and child grooming”

In addition to your great points, a few years ago an antivaccine activist made a video of a “class” where he was teaching children antivaccine myths. Their response was very positive (I haven’t seen an AoA on this, but on Facebook there was much excitement).

That’s much, much more direct targeting of children than Dr. Baldwin’s video. And they were all for it.

I would add that I think some of the vitriolic anger at Dr. Baldwin is because for once their tactic of piling on a doctor didn’t work. They didn’t succeed in deterring her. Posts are still up.

I hope the approach we used to help her can be a precedent when other doctors are subjected to a massive attack.

In addition, anti-vaxxers seek out children to teach their pseudoscience:

a few of the Thinking Moms brag about their “junior warriors” : their children learn the basics and present at school ( Jameson, others), AoA had teenagers making videos/ articles ( Jake, a comic and an art student) and woo-meisters like Null believe that their woo about vaccines should be taught in schools, presenting it himself at charter schools and making videos to be shared. Natural News uses its “charity” to bring the gospel to school aged children..

As we see over and over again with pseudoscience, a major element is virtually always projection: what they accuse others of doing is what they themselves are either doing or planning to do.

Eh, lying to kids is nothing. We’ve all read of the abuses “curebie” antivaxxers inflict on autistic children while the rest applaud. Press and CPS should be coming down on the whole lot of them like a megaton of hammers, cuz those narcissistic motherfuckers project like IMAX.

How does a Mom of 2 small kids, an adult son and a teenage daughter and busy pediatrician have time to make videos complete with graphics, wardrobe and makeup, and don’t forget the prop stethoscope casually tossed over the shoulder?

Project much Rossi? How about Sears and Thomas? I don’t see you criticising them for traipsing all over the countryside to give talks and protest, blogging and keeping up FB pages leaving their children at home. Is it because they are men and/or because they’re flying the same freak flag as you?

I even had to contact a blog company to ask a vehement, well known SkepDoc to remove a cartoon that clearly advocated for violence toward me. And the blog company complied. That was the end of it. I did not opine on social media that I felt threatened or scared or violated. I took care of the issue.

I’m calling BS on this. Not only would Dr. Hall never do something like this but Rossi would never miss an opportunity to boost her martyrdom to a wider audience if this did happen. Rossi and her fellow anti-vaxxers are bitter and nasty and their atrocious analogies keep backfiring.

Again, old news – or rather, old tactics – from pseudoscience. Think Phyllis Schlafly, getting a law degree and working full-time at the job of insisting that women shouldn’t be doing exactly what she was doing.

That’s an excellent point. It’s at least a double standard, and it might even be a sexist double standard.

It’s a double standard for sure and sexist when it suits. None of them criticised Jenny McCarthy for leaving her special needs child, having professional makeup artists, lighting and camera work.

Children might not be thinking of the myth

There was an awareness campaign about education/passing on nasty habits onto children, a number of years back. Its point was, when parents are badmouthing someone / yelling expletives / doing bad stuff, children are watching. And learning.
So I’m pretty sure children from antivax parents know quite a few antivax arguments. Whether they believe them is another issue.

As to the other points, notably teenagers bypassing parental will… Lucky us, we got recently a preview from our own visiting not-at-all-antivaxers.

Re: “hardcore sales techniques” to promote some medical procedure/behavior

Coming from an American lawyer and your all-consumerist society, that’s rich. You – heck, we all First-world country citizens – are all inundated in messages generated following “hardcore sales techniques”.
Justified health-related advice like go-vaccinate, eat-your-green, don’t-ask-for-antibiotics are merely playing by everybody’s rules and jockeying for a bit of our attention, in-between the ads for the latest iPhone or SUV.
Now that I’m thinking of it, one thing America is famous for is the ubiquitous ads from ambulance-chasing lawyers. These don’t seem to disturb Ms Rossi.

People just choose to take notice when they don’t like the message being sent. The others, they see as normal and ignore.

Oooh… I do like the end of the story of Dr Baldwin..
From the Cincinnati news linked to by ORAC:

Baldwin ended up with 11 people volunteering their services to monitor her social media pages and prevent the spread of inaccurate information about vaccines. By Thursday morning, the volunteers had banned over 5,000 anti-vaccine accounts on Facebook and the angry calls to Baldwin’s office had slowed. By Friday afternoon, Google Reviews had removed all fraudulent reviews of Baldwin’s practice.

Orac writes,

“It’s a cute video.”

MJD says,

Within the full facial video from Dr. Baldwin it is disclosed, “Vaccines are safe.” Does such an all encompassing statement fail to acknowledge/accept the effects of vaccine contraindications? Furthermore, there is the perception of a conflict of interest when the risk/benefit reality of vaccines is not communicated by paid physicians.

In my opinion, conflict of interest is very frustrating in medical science. For example, MJD recently submitted a review article titled, “Atopy and Blood Cancer” to the Journal of Nature (Blood Cancer) and was rejected based on “Conflict of Interest,” I’m a co-founder of the company ALLEAM, LLC., ( which is developing a hyper-allergenic skin cream designed to inhibit stage-IV cancer.

Q. Is the risk/benefit analysis to publish, for medical Journals, skewed towards academia wherein a conflict of interest is more easily concealed.

” was rejected based on ‘Conflict of interest'”

And diverse other factors, no doubt

“Michael J. Dochniak believes that vaccines contributed to his son’s allergy-induced regressive autism”

Eat shit and die, troll.

Jay Kanta writes,

Eat shit and die, troll.

MJD says,

Respectful Insolence Lessons:

Lesson #1 – Orac doesn’t place Troll’s into auto-moderation; about four (4) years now for MJD; and

Lesson #2 – Telling someone to “eat shit and die” is an inappropriate rebuttal to a science-based hypothesis.

@ Jay Kanta,

Do you have any words of wisdom?

My dog has a one-word vocabulary – “Bark!” – and is still a better communicator than you are.
The dochniak should go distim his doshes elsewhere, someplace where people are a little more credulous than here. They might even treat you with the respect you don’t deserve.

Believe it or not Old Rockin’ Dave, I’m only here because Orac is a great writer and science entertainer. I’m NOT going anywhere. Thank you, Orac.

You’ve got it on the nose about the lack of coherence here, though at least this dostak’s doshes are defined. (A sentence I would never have expected to write, or even see.)

Yes, its quite reasonable for an academic journal to reject an article that is thinly veiled advertising.

Unfortunately for you, Michael, you do not understand the difference between academic research and advertising, hence you cannot see what constitutes a true conflict of interest and what doesn’t.

My guess is you didn’t disclose yours when you submitted.

“a cartoon that clearly advocated for violence toward me”

I suspect that Rossi is conflating criticism or mockery with ”advocated for violence”.

You should see her twitter! ( @ KimRossi1111)**’
She talks about the “sexy dancing” doctors’ “come on” to young male patients, doing “a rotation at the BadaBing”***

Too many anti-vaxxers equate a practical, public health measure, vaccines, to criminal activity. As we’ve even witnessed here: vaccines kill, maim, cause “brain damage” and enrich malevolent operators with Pharma riches.- “blood is on your hands” etc.
If you look at it reasonably, anyone can see it’s crazy stuff said seriously and repeated endlessly.

I think that they’re getting more outlandish because perhaps a few news outlets are speaking up in the wake of recent outbreaks like Samoa. When CBC Marketplace took a hidden mic into an anti-vax event showing them truthfully, Del responded quickly and vehemently ( @ high wire talk). News opinion pieces in the states were quite adamantly opposed to their actions in NJ.

** she uses doubled numbers like “1111” because it means that angels are watching/ intervening or suchlike rot.
*** old school television reference to the Sopranos’ strip club

On a technical note, the Safari browser on my iPad and the Microsoft Edge browser on my Windows 10 PC both have a problem with the imbedded Tiktok video. It doesn’t fully load and play. Instead the browser keeps loading white space/line feeds after it.

It works fine on Chrome on my PC and Android phone.

Same thing here with Chrome 49 on OS X 10.6.8 (hey, I’m poor). Firefox 48 works fine.

And of course she uses language like “vaccines are safe” in the same sense that you would tell your children “cars are safe”, “playground equipment is safe”, etc.

This is targeted at a young, general audience. It is not a technical discussion of the relative risks of vaccines and the diseases they protect against.

Vaccines have been scientifically shown to be safer than cars and playground equipment. The most dangerous thing about getting a vaccine might be the drive to the physician who will administer it.

Rossi has used her own daughters’ issues as fodder for her books, articles and social media:
she reveals material them that would better be kept private: hygiene, their lack of adult pursuits and interests, videos of their problems speaking, photos of their “beauty”, details about their school/ day activities, bemoaning that they’ll never be mothers, describing their daily lives in great detail.

I find Jameson’s love/hate posts about her autistic son the most repulsive thing on AoA.

@ Len Tukwilla,

She posted that she hates her autistic son? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Easily done in this case as she posts about her autistic son all the time.

I hate toothaches. I have a toothache. I don’t hate myself for having a toothache. I hate cancer. Both my grandpas died from cancer. I did not hate my grandpas for having cancer.


@christine: “She posted that she hates her autistic son?”

Aww, Christine’s trying her hand at amateur sophistry now. Cute, but no cigar.

“Parents love their children” is classic begging the question. Good parents do, but there are many kinds of bad parents too. For instance, Narcissists even get their own subreddit—and when even Reddit says something is fucked up, then it is seriously fucked up indeed.

Narc parents love their children only inasmuch as those children are extensions of the parental ego: a subsidiary part of Self.

A child who perfectly serves in that role is held up as the Golden Child, praised and pampered by the narc (who is, of course, only praising and pampering herself) and displayed for public acclaim; often growing up to be a narcissist himself.

Whereas the “defective” child—one who falls short in some way of being that perfect extension—is scorned and belittled; abused mentally and emotionally in private, and again held up for spectacle, publicly parading all his intimate details in order to attract sympathy and attention to the narc parent and to punish further the child for not being what the narc parent deserves.

Does that sound at all familiar to you? Coming as you do from an antivax culture that often proclaims children are parental property for parents to do with as they wish (also SOP for narcs), free of censure or criticism by the state or anyone else; not individual human beings with rights and privileges of their own? Or do you deny such behaviors exist in your camp?

It is a simple straight question, with a simple straight answer. Do some antivax parents manifest the above-described behaviors? Yes or No?

I dare you to answer it.

Rossi is as antivaccine as I am. She’s certainly been at it longer.

Maybe she’s just more optimistic than I am that there is hope for personalized vaccines, incorporation of Immunogenomics, or a safer schedule?

There’s not! Give it up!

Dear, you’re an utter clown with no education in science. You know nothing about safety or the schedule or how it’s evaluated.

In addition to being horrifying, disgusting, and endangering the public health, Kim’s post is just plain dumb. To anyone who understands how words work “Vacciphilia” means “a sexual attraction to vaccines” and has nothing to do in any way shape or form with children. That’s just stupid. It’s right up there with thinking dendrophilia means “want to turn children into trees” not “sexual attraction to trees”.

If the only way to make a point is with not just lies but supid lies, well, maybe that point should be left flapping in the wind.

You were expecting her to go beyond just trying to come up with something that sounds vaguely like pedophilia? You are an optimist.
I wonder if she realizes that her little game also tars hemophiliacs, anglophiles, francophile, bibliophiles and whole swathes of other non-pedophiles. But then I remember, she’s an antivaxer and doesn’t care about leaving a trail of slime over completely unrelated people if she thinks she can score a cheap point against someone else.

@ Len Tukwilla,

OMG. You read hate for her child in that post?

She was exhausted but had a busy day planned with all the errands that severely autistic children are unable to tolerate. She planned everything for one day because she had a caregiver hired for that one day.

Then the caregiver cancelled. They cancel a lot.

I might be just as frustrated had my grandpa’s aide cancelled, meaning I had to cancel my errands that waited all week & he was too weak or nauseous to get out of the car at his appointment & I knew I would also have to make it to the grocery store with him.

And had I returned home & posted about my grandpa & our day on a forum for family caregiver’s of cancer patients I would likely receive a lot of understanding & validating replies.

Except that caregivers for cancer patients do not cancel near as much as caregivers for autistic patients do. Or at least such was my experience working as the on-call nursing supervisor for a home health care agency.


Purely out of idle curiosity, who exactly is your god? I am wondering whether it is one with which I am as yet unfamiliar.

@ rs,

"Purely out of idle curiosity, who exactly is your god?"

Well I use the “OMG” as a figure of written speech. I don’t actually use the phrase verbally unless the audience requires it. I’m a verbal scripter. If I don’t use terms like ‘OMG & LOL or WTF’ when I write, I feel like I sound very robotic.

I am sorry I do not have the words to tell you what God is but I am fairly certain it is a what not a who.

I capitalize the letter G out of respect for my parents wishes. I was raised Catholic but that morphed into Eastern Orthodox after I met my mom’s family (age 10). My mom was the first girl in the Greek community in Denver to run from her arranged marriage in the late 1960s so she was disowned. But that’s religion. Not God.

"I am wondering whether it is one with which I am as yet unfamiliar"

If you know a God at all you are way ahead of me.

“I am sorry I do not have the words to tell you what God is but I am fairly certain it is a what not a who.”

Agreed, I’d characterize Andrew Wakefield a “what” too.

As others have noted, I find the ever-increasing efforts by anti-vax leaders to paint pro-vaccine professionals in a light that encourages violence against them to be very worrisome.

As I’ve often noted, both leaders and followers frequently accuse vaccine advocates of being criminal: there are “dead babies”, “ruined lives”, “brain damaged” children because of this “atrocity”, this “crime against humanity”..” the
blood is on their hands”. to whip their cohorts into a frenzy
They promise that there will be “legal actions” ” jail” , etc. Doctors should be “injected with toxins” etc. “Hung by the neck until dead”. That last one is courtesy of Dr DG’s twitter.

It upset me greatly to see Dr Pan so vilified, chased, push, insulted in racist tones. He’s an educated, brilliant man trying to help his state’s children: if he were so into money. there are many lucrative opportunities for people with MDs, training and experience.
Closer to home: a doctor has been on a school board for decades basically for free; because he has been in sports med and therapeutic interventions, can you imagine how much more he could earn if he didn’t work for the city?

Oh, wow… around two million dollars. Woo hoo.

The 1990 measles epidemic cost California over thirty million dollars:

Now in the past year the state of Oregon taxpayer paid about a million dollars to keep a kid with tetanus alive, and the state of Washington taxpayers paid another million to control a measles outbreak.

Here you are worrying about lobbyist passing out a few bucks, but ignore the economic and health costs of measles, pertussis, tetanus, diphtheria, etc. You claim you are not a sadistic child hater who likes to see kids suffer from those diseases, but the evidence show you are a parasite on taxpayers and your community.

@ christine kincaid JANUARY 24, 2020 AT 1:22 PM

You write: “Rossi is as antivaccine as I am. She’s certainly been at it longer.

Maybe she’s just more optimistic than I ”

You are either extremely stupid, delusional, or just plain dishonest. Probably a combination of all three.
I and others explained that research continues on genetic predispositions and other factors; but the risk from the vaccine-preventable disease is as great or greater than the rare serious adverse reactions from a vaccine. In addition, if vaccine injured there is a good chance of getting help from the Vaccine Court, despite what you choose to believe. If injured by the vaccine-preventable disease, up the creek without a paddle. Finally, if one has a predisposition to react negatively to a vaccine, odds are if confronted with the full strength microbe, well. . .

You are really tiresome. If smallpox was raging you would want to protect the 1 – 2 per million who died from the vaccine at the expense of 250,000 to more per million who would have died from the actual disease. I will repeat for the umpteenth time, we don’t live in a perfect world, don’t sacrifice the good for the perfect.

And if you are as anti vaccine as Rossi then you really are NUTS.

By the way, NETFLIX has a new series: Pandemic: Preventing an Outbreak. They interview an Oregon mother who believes good nutrition, etc. is all that is necessary to have a strong immune system. Like you, she doesn’t have a clue how the immune system works. Basically there are around 100 or 200 million slightly different B cells and an equal number of T cells. If the body is invaded by a foreign microbe, then within usually a couple of hours a match will be made between antigens from the microbe and a B-cell. If additional messages from peripheral innate immune cells tell the B-cell that a battle is on, the B-cell will convert to a plasma cell and beginning churning out antibodies. It can take a week or more to get enough to fight the invader. Unfortunately, by the time the person may be dead, suffered a permanent disability, or just endured a rather unpleasant time. However, if the person survives, memory B and T cells remain. If the same invader shows up these memory cells can churn out fast and furious antibodies, etc. and, often, either the person doesn’t even know there has been an invasion or it is mild. Well, vaccines do the same thing, create memory cells.

What you and others don’t understand or don’t want to understand is that the healthiest person on the planet, if there immune system hasn’t been exposed to a specific microbe, has no protection. It will take just as long for the first time revving up. However, obviously if a person is healthy they have a better chance of surviving; but NOT GUARANTEED. I repeat, regardless of how healthy you are, until your immune system has actually encountered a specific microbe, it will take 7 – 10 days to get up to speed.

So, you, the woman from Oregon and anyone else who things our immune systems work by just being healthy are IDIOTS!

And one other thing. When they say a vaccine is, say, only 50% effective, it means totally preventing the disease; but in most cases, still confers enough that risk of death or hospitalization significantly reduced.

Now crawl back under your rock and stop making a fool of yourself.

@ Joel,

Here we go … Paragraph 1:

"You are either extremely stupid, delusional, or just plain dishonest. Probably a combination of all three."

Because I said Rossi is as antivaccine as I am? She is, whether or not she knows it. Or are you saying I am not antivaccinne?

"I and others explained that research continues on genetic predispositions and other factors; but the risk from the
vaccine-preventable disease is as great or greater than the rare serious adverse reactions from a vaccine."

Yes yes I know what your comfy narrative is. Mine is “Not rare. Rarely reported”. Also: “Oh the epidemiology? Bwahaha …!”

"In addition, if vaccine injured there is a good chance of getting help from the Vaccine Court, despite what you
choose to believe. If injured by the vaccine-preventable disease, up the creek without a paddle."

Well that depends on how many of the million doses came before you filed. You know; so you can be that 1 in a million just like the comfy narrative? You need to time your claim juuust right at that 999,995-999,999 mark to get the best results.

"Finally, if one has a predisposition to react negatively to a vaccine, odds are if confronted with the full strength
microbe, well. . "

Sure. As long as the full strength microbes are combined with an adjuvant & jabbed through your integument. Usually along with other microbes at the same time. And as an infant VS a sturdy young adult. And if you are a girl rather than a boy for Diptheria, Tetanus or Pertussis & a boy rather than a girl for Measles, Mumps or Rubella. etc, etc.

“[S]turdy young adult.” Diseases don’t check id. They don’t care how old you are. They will strike infants, elderly and in between. An infant in Minnesota just died of whooping cough.

Here’s the difference between pro and anti vax. Those of us who actually listen to experts all agree that, yes, vaccines have risks. Just because we don’t attribute every random negative occurrence to vaccination and agree the risk-benefit analysis strongly supports vaccinating doesn’t mean nothing bad ever happens. A guy in my city was once killed by a falling icicle. Life has risks, and walking down the street is still generally safe.

But anti vaxers? They have excuse after excuse after excuse about why these diseases aren’t a risk. Christine likes to claim that with “modern medicine,” these diseases aren’t a big deal, and now she’s claiming they strike “study young adults.”

You and yours help contribute to that baby’s death by discouraging vaccination and letting whooping cough come surging back. If you really believe vaccination is more dangerous than disease, you’d own that. But you won’t, because you’re a coward.

@ christine

You write: “Well that depends on how many of the million doses came before you filed. You know; so you can be that 1 in a million just like the comfy narrative? You need to time your claim juuust right at that 999,995-999,999 mark to get the best results.”

Bull Shit! Do you have any documentation to back this up? Not some disgruntled employee or something said on a anti vaccination website; but real documentation. Do you even know year by year since 1986, that is 33 years, how many cases each year ruled in favor of the plaintiff and how many vaccines were given?

And prior to the vaccines, for instance, in 1965 when 20,000 babies were born with congenital rubella syndrome (one or more of: deafness, blindness, seizure disorder, mental retardation OR microcephaly, died soon after birth) received any help?

You write: “Sure. As long as the full strength microbes are combined with an adjuvant & jabbed through your integument. Usually along with other microbes at the same time.”

You really are super STUPID. Vaccines contain killed or attenuated, that is, severely weakened microbes, not “full strength microbes.” Because the killed microbes often don’t even elicit any reaction from peripheral innate immune cells, e.g., neutrophils, dendritic cells, macrophages, not B or T cells, minute amounts of aluminum as an adjuvant are used to cause a minute local irritation, which is enough for the peripheral innate immune cells to decide to signal that a battle is raging; but since the microbe is killed, all that it does is allow the one of the up to 200 million B cells to match it, that is, like a key fitting a lock, and so we get memory B cells

As for “other microbes at the same time,” while not impossible, if they wipe the site with alcohol and use a sterile needle, highly unlikely. And by the way, on a daily basis the average person is actually exposed to up to 3,000 microbes that could potentially be dangerous, exposed through the air we breath, the food and drink we take, and minor scratches. You really are DENSE.

No, I won’t stop insulting you because you just keep say such stupid things like vaccines contain “full strength microbes.”


You write: “Because I said Rossi is as antivaccine as I am? She is, whether or not she knows it. Or are you saying I am not antivaccinne?”

I was saying simply that you both are anti vaccine and both terribly WRONG, that is, stupid, delusional, dishonest, probably combination of all three.

You don’t even understand what I write.

Addendum 2

Actually, I misspoke when I said: “I won’t stop insulting you.” I’m not insulting you; but just making an objective observation. And your being antivaccination is just a symptom of both not understanding and/or being against science, of being illogical, of either making things up that fit your delusions or that you got from an echo chamber of like-minded people, accepting as gospel with no attempt at critical thinking.

I really find it hard to believe you are a nurse. No understanding of microbiology or immunology. Do you have a BSN? Or what? Some of the brightest most capable people I know are nurses; but there are always exceptions. You are obviously one.

Watch the NETFLIX series Pandemic: Stopping at Outbreak

And read Lauren Sompayrac’s “How the Immune System Works (6th Edition)”

Or don’t, as you either won’t understand the above or won’t want to understand.

Addendum 3

You write: “Oh the epidemiology? Bwahaha …!”

Wow. You have NEVER demonstrated that you know even the most basics of how epidemiology works; yet you dismiss it. One more example of a combination of stupidity, delusions, and an inflated sense of knowledge, based on . . .? Your own fantasy world. Look up the Dunning-Kruger effect.

@Joel: Consider the religious mind builds its ego atop its beliefs; thus any threat to those beliefs is inherently an attack upon the ego too.

Or: antivaxxers insult us with lies, and we insult them with facts.

I find the ‘epidemiology’ comment funny too. I mean, its statistics. Not only can it tell you how likely two events are to be connected, it can tell you how likely the results are to be true as well. Anyone with the initial data and the mathematical knowledge can duplicate the results. Dismissing it because it doesn’t agree with your world view is very ‘flat earth’.

Joel A. Harrison, PhD, MPH states,

You don’t even understand what I write.

MJD asks,

Q. Did you lecture here at RI several years ago using the nym “Prometheus.”

Man, just when you think insomnia can’t get any more useless, Doucheniak comes to the rescue.

Maybe the National Center for Science Education should add the anti-vaxxers to their list. As I understand it, they added climate-change deniers when they noted that their tactics were similar to those of creationists. Hey, my first comment!

For complete and utter stupidity, I recommend the comment by ‘Patrick’ on the AoA thread. The whole post and comments just demonstrates how low the anti-vaxxers on AoA can stoop.

It is absolutely deliberate and calculated too. Incite unhinged outliers in their movement to extreme action, then throw up hands in feigned shock—while being sure to blame its victims for bringing it on themselves, of course.

I’ve noted before that antivaxxers extend the usual altie paranoid narcissism with their own particular brand of passive-aggressiveness; this is it in its most malignant form.

These bastards already abuse their own, and they get away with it too because the rest of the world doesn’t want to pay attention. (SOP.) Left to cook in their own insanity, it’s only a matter of time before they extend their violence outward. The best defense for all is to shine light into every dark crevasse and dirty secret they have, so bright and constant that no-one—AV or MOP—can feign to look away any longer. The sooner that destructive movement implodes the better, for if blood must be spilled then may it at least be the blood of its ringleader abusers.

has – ‘It is absolutely deliberate and calculated too. Incite unhinged outliers in their movement to extreme action, then throw up hands in feigned shock—while being sure to blame its victims for bringing it on themselves, of course.’

This seems an excellent summing up of the modus operandi of the far right – and, unfortunately the more rabid conspiracy infected AV etc ‘movement’. It’s difficult to deal with in that pushing back seems to lead to more polarisation and each side becoming more entrenched. It seems rather like trying to deal with scientology or moonies, except without such a clear structure and centre to aim for.

No surprise there. It’s the same mechanism. Revolutionaries, like scammers, win by changing other people’s behavior. And, unlike their cannon fodder, they are not dumb.

As long as the ringleaders do not possess absolute power, they would lose far more personally than they could gain by acting directly. (e.g. The law would throw them in jail.) But persuade others to move often enough while retaining “plausible deniability” for themselves, and they’ll shift public discourse to a position where their extreme becomes everyone’s new normal; and then they’re much more closely positioned to take that power and act at will.

If you’re into this stuff you might like reading David Neiwert who has written in depth about the US far-right.

@Chris Preston JANUARY 25, 2020 AT 4:33 AM
“For complete and utter stupidity, I recommend the comment by ‘Patrick’ on the AoA thread. The whole post and comments just demonstrates how low the anti-vaxxers on AoA can stoop.”

Could you please give the link or, even better the title and date of the Age of Autism article you are referring to.


I’m sure I’m not the only to notice how often the antivax invoke the First Amendment while failing to concede that it also applies to everyone else.
Whenever they are shut down by a platform like, say, Twitter, they invoke it too, even though it only applies to actions taken by of the government. Just because I own a microphone doesn’t mean I have to let someone else use it.
It could be a good line of attack against their stupidity – “I’m just exercising my First Amendment right to stand up for vaccines and good science.”

@ has

I like your: “antivaxxers insult us with lies, and we insult them with facts.”

I would just slightly change it to: “antivaxxers insult us with lies and delusions, and we insult them with facts.” LOL

@ has,

"Do some antivax parents manifest the above-described behaviors"

Oh no! The only antivax parents I know are the caregiving parents of vaccine-injured kids. The narcissist parents usually weed themselves out by abandoning the primary caregiver parent, usually leaving them facing a life of lost wages & poverty..

Narcissists could never handle a vaccine-injured child; their neurological status leads to extremely social-adverse behaviors & a lifetime of isolation. Narcissists cannot handle that.

Narcissists are also more likely to demand that everything be about them & insist on others vaccinating to protect the VIP in their lives (themselves) while parents of vaccine-injured children do not ask anyone else to risk what they have to live every day to ‘protect them’.

So no I do not see much of what you describe. Instead I see so much unresolved grief & rage for who & what hurt their child.

Narcissist people can’t care for the vaccine-injured. I don’t know any antivaccine people who are not caring for or have already lost; a loved one injured by vaccines. And a few who are themselves injured who can’t ever become parents yet have not lost their words.

@ christine

You mean “alleged vaccine-injured children.” Of course, you having god-like knowledge, you know for absolute certain that they were injured by a vaccine, a vaccine, according to you containing “the full strength microbe.”
Stupid on steroids.

And, by the way, there are many good parents who take care of kids with various problems, not alleged to be caused by vaccines. Like kids clearly injured by a wild-type microbe, e.g., polio, rubella, or kids born with cerebral palsy, etc.

Plenty of good parents with autistic kids too; parents who don’t dedicate their whole lives to torturing the autism out of them.

Of course, according to the rules of Christine’s reality, they’re the ones doing parenting wrong. Obviously they just don’t love their kids enough.

I’ve seen many examples quoted here of parents who make the narrative all about themselves and how much they have suffered and how much time/money/emotional capital etc they have had to devote to their children, rather than about the actual children themselves, seems pretty narcissistic. I’m not too good at remembering examples (or anything very much!), but the recentish case of Ezekiel and one some time ago where a mother had refused vaccines and her child caught whooping cough, but she made the narrative about how much she was suffering rather than her poor child spring to mind. Essentially, if someone is always saying ,”Look at me! Look at me!” It’s a bit of a giveaway. Also, being unable to accept personal responsibility by transferring blame to other agencies, eg vaccines or international conspiracies is an aspect of this. (Poor me! Poor me!)

Indeed. Diseases are harmless and antivax parents are pure as the driven snow.

At least Christine is as dishonest to herself as she is to everyone else. Gotta protect all those lovely tasty profitable lies. At any cost.

Handy checklist here:

See in particular: 3, 9, 10, 12, 13, 19, 20, 21, 22.

IANAP but it sounds to me that autistic kids would be the SGs from heaven.

Except Christine assures us that there are no NMs in the antivax world. So that’s alright then. Cos who we going to believe: her or our lying eyes?

Another way that anti-vax parents can make it ” all about themselves” is to make a career of sorts out of being an autism parent ( I’ve been following this for years):

— they write books: every year AoA features a list of books by their regulars as possible holiday gifts. They are friendly with a publisher ( Tony Lyons of Sky Horse) who is in the same camp and enables them. Do any of them make money from this endeavor? I don’t know but they sure parade their titles around.
— they speak at events like AutismOne or woo conventions. Some seek pay ( “Hire me!” writes Rossi)
— they run blogs, facebook pages, twitter accounts, write for HuffPo (in the past) where they advise other parents
— they run charities where they might be paid for their services ( Rossi, Loe Fisher, TMR others)
— a few become legal, medical, journalistic or educational “experts” on their woo of choice ( see AoA: Science writer Conrick, newsperson Dachel, legal eagle Conte, etc usually shilling a book or blog)
— some even rap and run protests (see Crazy Mother Hillary)
— they argue with SBM on blogs, twitter, here.

I don’t know how much money is involved but perhaps they are seeking something more important:
respect, recognition and “speaking truth to power” showing how SBM/ the Mainstream is ALL RONG.
Notice that I don’t include other activists like RFK jr, Wakefield, Bigtree because I don’t think that any of them are autism parents. They’re another species of grifter.

OT, mostly:
Anyone who studiess con artists (such as woo-meisters) might be entertained by Korean auteur Bong’s current film, Parasite, wherein an impoverished family cleverly inveigles their way into the daily lives of a wealthy entrepreneur’s family by usurping the jobs of employees however by the end of the film you may ask indeed which family is the “parasite”.

Credit where due: I got a response.

Now Christine’s an expert in Cluster B too.

Comedy gold.

What a lovely world you live in, where everything fits your preconceived notions.

Narcissists could never handle a vaccine-injured child; their neurological status leads to extremely social-adverse behaviors & a lifetime of isolation.

Interesting, since you’ve implied my dyslexia could be a vaccine injury, yet I have no social isolation. You routinely rewrite what counts as “vaccine injury” depending on conversation, so that you’re always right.

You routinely rewrite what counts as “vaccine injury” depending on conversation, so that you’re always right.”

Yeah, five minutes with Christine would make even Humpty Dumpty throw himself off the wall just to escape the migrane from hell.

You’ll notice too that while she responded to my question, she didn’t actually answer it: I asked if some AVers manifested certain behaviors characteristic of narcissists, to which she replied that there aren’t any narcissists in the AV camp.

What I still can’t decide is whether Christine is the most brilliantly sly and creative dissembler on the planet; or just so utterly dense and unperceptive that she must constantly refabricate her own Reality from scratch every minute of the day, due to being completely disassociated from the one we’re actually in.

(p.s. A constant need to be Completely Right and utter inability to handle any criticism whatsoever are common NPD characteristics too.)

Narcissists could never handle a vaccine-injured non-typical child; their neurological status leads to extremely social-adverse behaviors & a lifetime of isolation.

Well, with this small correction, that sentence is a very accurate depiction of quite a few of the most prominent antivaxers, either the ones coming on this site or the ones in the world at large.

I don’t know any antivaccine people who are not caring for or have already lost; a loved one injured by vaccines.

You’re obviously unfamiliar with the late Dan Olmsted, then.

Does anyone know whether Never Win Finn has kids? Erin Elizabeth? That raving ex-lawyer who moved from Texas to parts further west? (I’ll never forget ol’ Whatshername.)

^ Oh, dear, I forgot Adriana Gaimondes; somehow, parturition doesn’t spring to mind.

“I don’t know any antivaccine people who are not caring for or have already lost; a loved one injured by vaccines. ”

That doesn’t take into account the substantial percentage (probably a majority) of antivaxers who oppose vaccination out of libertarian/”choice” beliefs (as opposed to antivaxers who merely latch onto the “choice” narrative to appeal to those of libertarian bent), those who hold beliefs in conspiracies to promote vaccination (to enrich Big Pharma, depopulate the earth etc.), people who buy into the vaccines-are-full-of-toxins narrative etc., persons suffering from belonephobia* (fear of needles, which is thought to affect up to 10% of adults, though most of these unfortunates are not specifically antivaccine), those who buy into the anecdotes they’ve read online etc.

*speaking of which, I wonder how many belonephobes express their fear in sexual terms. Given what we’ve seen here about invention of the term “vacciphilia” and comparison of vaccination to “rape with penetration”, there may be more to such language than the desire to tar their opponents as rapists or perverts. There could be an element of mental disease.

Back On Topic:

@ Kim Rossi1111 tweets( 3 hours ago)
how ” young pretty” doctors are “selected” to sell the vaccine message harkens back to the old “coffee, tea or me” stewardess days . Feminists of the 1970s would heartily disapprove. Complete with “graphics”

Funny. she doesn’t mention Orac’s post or our ridicule.

how ” young pretty” doctors are “selected” to sell the vaccine message

I guess Dr Baldwin could take this as a compliment.
Rossi is overlooking the antivax/alt-med side pushing forward “young pretty” things as well. Or, falling that, old men with a certain brand of fatherly wise look. Which is the other face of the coin of the sexist cliché Rossi is decrying.
Funny, this human tendency to favor people with good communication skills who also happen to have the good sense – or the good luck – to present well…

Rossi obviously doesn’t think our host “young” or “pretty” enough.

Although, the man does have puppies; surely that ought to more than make up for it?

@ has

As a dog lover since infancy, the puppies are all that is needed. LOL

I saw a great bumper sticker: My Wife and Dog Missing
Reward for the Dog

I’m a bachelor. My dogs never wanted to share me.?

@ my stalker writes, “Here you are worrying about lobbyist passing out a few bucks,” Two million isn’t a few bucks. Again your extrapolation “skills” are lacking. I’m not worried about Dick Pan. He is doing very well financially. He has friends in pHARMa. I was correcting Duhnices inaccurate statement.

@ Natalie White

Every medical organization, including the American Academy of Pediatrics, support vaccinations. Pediatricians are among the two lowest paid doctors, earning, on average, about $200,000 less than many specialists. Yet, to become a pediatrician requires the same four years of medical school, 100 hour plus residencies, etc. People go into pediatrics because they care about children. Do you really believe that they would push something that harms children? Of course you do. The 95% or more of pediatricians who support vaccinations are, according to you, either stupid, dishonest and callous. Yet, they learn about the immune system in medical school, attend seminars, and subscribe to journals with peer-reviewed articles, often containing research on vaccines. In addition, it is impossible that they are not aware of antivaccinationists and their arguments.

So nice that people like you who don’t understand immunology, epidemiology, etc. know the truth???

Did it ever enter your mind that doctors like Dick Pan entered politics because they thought they could have a stronger influence on public health than in an individual practice? Of course not. Since you know you are right, they must be evil.

You are tiresome.

By the way, I wish someone would pay me for all the time I devote to writing articles supporting vaccines and comments on blogs. I would love to get paid for something I believe in, something I believe in based on 50 years of reading, education, and experience. Currently, I only have Social Security. Can you suggest some drug company willing to pay me? Not just the company name, but contact person. ?

“You are tiresome.”

She is a loathsome hater of healthy kids. She wants them to get sick and the taxpayers to pay the bill. She has a very expensive habit that she makes others pay for.

So you are fine with kids getting sick and the taxpayers footing the bill. Did you bother to read what happened during 1990 measles epidemic? It cost the California taxpayers over thirty million dollars, and that is just one state that was hit.

Obviously you do not care about this:

And this:

The fact you ignore both the cost and human suffering is why you are a sadistic child hater who loves to see them get sick, and having the taxpayers pay the bill. You have a very expensive hobby where other people must pay for.

You have not yet commented this
Hviid A, Hansen JV, Frisch M, et al.
Measles, Mumps, Rubella Vaccination and Autism: A Nationwide Cohort Study.
Ann Intern Med. 2019;170:513–520. [Epub ahead of print 5 March 2019].
Childhood vaccinations prevent autism.
About your rants: do you really think that a woman is easier to harass ?

@Aarno – “You have not yet commented this” Go back to the post. I did but it didn’t post right away.

“About your rants: do you really think that a woman is easier to harass ?” I don’t know. Ask my stalker.

Your idiocy is why you think telling you are wrong, and your actions are endangering children is being “harassed.” If you think being told you are wrong all the time is “stalking”, then get off teh internets. Because you are part of a movement that is literally killing kids.

Now get over yourself, idiot. Take that from a mother who had to take care of an infant with chicken pox (a year before the vaccine was available). Seeing that baby suffer is why I think you anti-vaccine idiots are sadistic child haters.

@ Natalie White

regarding your “stalker.” One of the main characteristics of scientifically illiterate antivaccinationists is their subscribing to paranoid conspiracy theories, e.g., that scientists, public health officials, and government workers the world over are ignoring vaccines risks and pushing vaccines to further the profits of the pharmaeutical industry. Note that everything is sold for profits, including things that benefit us, things that are neutral, and things that are harmful. Pointing out that pharmaceutical companies make a profit on vaccines says nothing about their value. They make a profit on insulin, so should diabetics assume they shouldn’t use it???

So, your seeing someone who posts comments refuting your stupid comments and calling them a “stalker” is just one more example of antivaccinationists paranoia. If you don’t want people commenting about your comments, then stop commenting. Otherwise, accept its a free-for-all.

And your stating: “that a woman is easier to harass ?” I and others have refuted antivax garbage from, among others Greg. I don’t think “Greg” is a woman’s name. Again, you display your twisted logic and paranoia.

Apparently pointing out where she and her friends are wasting taxpayer funds is “harassment.”

She obviously does not care about a little who had to fight for his life for weeks due to tetanus, and even after the Oregon taxpayers paid for his medical care the idiot parents still refused to vaccinate:

And just across the Columbia River, other taxpayers had to foot the bill for a measles outbreak, at least part of that was getting kids finally vaccinated:

She is more than dumber than a rock, she is promoting disease and death. Who cares if pointing this out over and over and over again upsets her, she deserves it.

@ Joel writes – And your stating: “that a woman is easier to harass ?” <<< Just to clarify, this statement was brought to you by Aarno not me.

I’m not averse to pedantry, I like it. The devil IS in the details.

@ Natalie White

Fascinating how I and others show just how wrong you are on major points, so you think “The devil IS in the details.” Explain oh master of stupidity how gender harassment relates to whether you display a total lack of understanding of immunology, microbiology, epidemiology, the history and current status of vaccine-preventable diseases. And, just to be clear, your using “stalker” for someone who continues to respond to your idiocies, is just one more example of your total lack of being able to actually enter into a dialogue based on science and logic.

So, yep, I first saw “woman … harass” in your comment; but went back and it was Aarno. So what? It is you who keeps using “stalker”, which, though occasionally someone does stalk men, usually refers to a woman as the victim. So, basically, whether “stalker” or “harass a woman” is the same thing. I realize that this explanation is above your pay grade.

@ Joel:

Chris has been associated with Orac/ RI for a very long time** but she is a ‘stalker’ when someone else comes here and engages her? For a RL example, if I went to a bar or restaurant where John works or hangs out for 15 years to bother him, would he then be a “stalker”?

-btw- any commenter who trades in anti-vax or a woo at RI should expect to get blowback by the regulars or if they are extremely fortunate, by Orac himself. Their nonsense will not be allowed to stand as is.

** I know her well over a decade

@ Joel write – “So, yep, I first saw “woman … harass” in your comment; but went back and it was Aarno.” <<<Thank you for the acknowledgement and correction. The rest of it? Just another unpleasant spew. Good day.

@ Natalie White:

You write: “Just another unpleasant spew.” Incredible. You ignore the juxtaposition of your using “stalker” and “woman harass” AND you ignore my pointing out that neither plays a role in myself and others pointing out just what an IDIOT you are, not understanding any of the sciences underlying vaccines. But keep on proving me right by looking for something insignificant to focus on.

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