A couple of months ago, a reader sent me an article that really disturbed me. In fact, I had originally been planning to write about it not long after I received it. However, as I’ve mentioned before, when it comes to blogging, I’m a bit like Dug the Talking Dog from the movie Up in that I’m easily distracted. Unlike Dug, what distracts me aren’t squirrels, but rather bright, shiney pieces of pseudoscience, quackery, paranormal, or otherwise weird nonsense. Sometimes after I’m distracted I come back to the topic I had originally wanted to blog about. Sometimes I don’t. Or, sometimes (like this time), it takes me nearly two months. I realize that that’s kind of a lame excuse, but, well, that’s just how Orac rolls. Except that Orac can’t roll, being a square Plexiglass box full of multicolored blinking lights and all.
In any case, I just realize that, as far as I can tell, I’ve never blogged about this bit of cancer quackery before. Shocking, I know. I thought I had covered pretty much every major form of cancer quackery at least once over the seven and a half years this blog has been in existence. But I was wrong! This cannot stand! I must cover it!
Unfortunately, the article that brought my attention (back) to this particular form of cancer quackery is a story that is very sad. It is the story of Bernie Mulligan:
To Bernie Mulligan, chemotherapy is just a temporary setback.
The 45-year-old carpenter at the University of Windsor refused all traditional treatments for his terminal stomach cancer for about two months, until complications from an expanding liver landed him in the hospital.
On Monday, he reluctantly started chemotherapy for the first time.
Doctors say Mulligan will be lucky if he lives another two months, but he said he’s not worried. He just needs the chemotherapy to shrink his liver to the point where he can get back to the real cure, he said — a supplement in a rainbow-coloured bottle called Cantron.
“That’s the stuff that’s going to cure me. This stuff is not a cure, chemo’s not a cure,” he said. “When I got rushed into the hospital two weeks ago, yes, I thought I was done. But now I’m confident.”
Mulligan is one of many Windsor cancer patients who have crossed the border over the years to attend meetings of an organization based out of Warren, Mich., that promotes Cantron as a miracle cure.
Stomach cancer is, generally speaking, a bad actor. It’s the sort of tumor that’s hard enough to treat even when it’s localized to the stomach, but when it’s metastasized to the liver, as it has in Mr. Mulligan’s case, it’s incurable.
According to a video on the Windsor Star website, back in February Mulligan had been experiencing pains in his upper abdomen. He thought it was a “stomach bug” and was going to see his family doctor that very day when he started vomiting blood and ended up in the emergency room. At the time, it was found that he had numerous metastases in his liver. Ultimately the primary cancer was located and turned out to be what sounds to me like an upper stomach cancer or a cancer at the gastroesophageal junction, which, if true, is more esophageal cancer than gastric cancer. Be that as it may, esophageal cancer is a bad actor, too.
It’s a horrible thing when a man this young is faced with a terminal cancer diagnosis, and that’s exactly what Mulligan was facing. However, if there’s one thing I always try to emphasize, it’s that “incurable” does not mean “not treatable.” If there’s one area of cancer care that’s advanced enormously over the last 20 or 30 years, it’s palliative care. Even though palliative care is not designed to prolong life but rather to relieve symptoms, there is evidence that good palliative care results in prolongation of life. Of course, I realize that telling a 45-year-old man, who probably expected to live another 35 or 40 years, that we have good palliative care is not a message that is likely to be satisfying. We all want to live!
Enter the cancer quacks
Although it is the ethical and science-based thing to do to provide an honest assessment of prognosis based on the patient’s presentation and what we know from science, unfortunately, there are plenty of “alternative” medicine practitioners out there who are more than happy to give a message of hope when there is little or no hope. Such a message causes a lot of harm, such as leading the patient to waste huge amounts of money to the point where he might bankrupt his family and leave nothing left for them after he’s gone, causing unnecessary pain and complications, and, to put it bluntly, deceiving the patient with false hope. Of course, some patients are more susceptible to false hope than others, and Mulligan appears to be one of those patients. In his video, he talks about eschewing conventional therapy and going for homeopathic remedies before discovering Cantron.
But what is Cantron? The same basic formula has appeared under a wide variety of names, such as Sheridan’s Formula, Jim’s Juice, JS–114, JS–101, 126–F, Crocinic Acid, and, of course, Entelev, Protocel, and Cantron. The version of the magic cancer cure being used by Bernie Mulligan is sold by a company called Medical Research Products. It comes in bottles festooned with happy, cheerful colors, and its sales pitch runs like this:
Cantron® is an amazing bio-electrical wellness formulation. It provides astonishing health benefits like no other substance on Earth. It is the world’s most potent antioxidant and scavenger of abnormal proteins which accumulate in the blood, tissues, organs and joints. Cantron is known to dramatically aid the body’s own natural defenses. Since 1984, it has received rave reviews from those who have taken it. One customer summed it up perfectly on an Internet chat site when she emphatically stated: “How blessed we are to know about Cantron.”
I wouldn’t exactly put it that way.
Notice the pure snake oil-style appeal mixed with what I like to call science word salad. “Bio-electric wellness formulation”? It’s a meaningless term. “Scavenger of abnormal proteins”? Highly unlikely. “Dramatically aid the body’s own natural defenses”? That’s just another way of phrasing the quack’s favorite meaninglessly vague claim that his nostrum “boosts the immune system.” Then, of course, there is the appeal to testimonial, wherein no science is presented but instead we’re told how much people like the product and how much good it’s allegedly done for people.
But what is Cantron? It turns out that there are several products that are very similar to Cantron. The original was Entelev, later rebranded as CanCell, which, as described in the article and on various web pages and articles as having first been conceived and compounded in the 1936 by a chemist working for the Dow Chemical Company named James V. Sheridan, who first called his concoction Entelev. Why did he choose that name? In an interview, Sheridan once said that the idea came to him in a dream that he believed to be inspired by God, explaining many years later that the name Entelev came from “entelechy” (that part of the living process known only to God) and “ev” (which came from the word “electrovalent”), the latter being added so that the name would have something for everyone. Another version of the tale, told by a believer, can be found here.
According to the company website, Sheridan apparently did some animal studies in the late 1940s (one wonders why it took him 10 or 12 years to go from making up his concoction to doing animal studies), but there is precious little objective evidence from parties not selling the compound that he ever did anything of the sort. It’s also claimed that he attempted to do clinical trials while working at the Michigan Cancer Institute back in the 1950s. That claim actually raised an eyebrow, because, being in Michigan, I had never heard of the Michigan Cancer Institute. There is currently a Michigan Cancer Institute. However, it doesn’t appear to be a research-based institution but rather part of a private hospital. As is so often the case in stories like this, the history just doesn’t add up.
Be that as it may, according to the company website the next phase of the story occurred in the late 1950s through the 1960s, when, it is claimed, Sheridan was working for Battelle Laboratories, he did more work on his treatment. I don’t have direct knowledge that can help me evaluate this claim (although I do find it curious that so little is revealed about what Sheridan was doing , but I did do a PubMed search for James V. Sheridan and failed to find any publications by him at all. Given that he continued to work on Entelev at least into the 1980s, if he had published anything in the peer-reviewed literature it should be locatable on PubMed. It’s not. Then, from 1974 to 1983, Sheridan reportedly gave the formula away free of charge to over 1,000 people. In any case, the only evidence out there that I could find that Sheridan ever tried to do clinical trials is the existence of an application for investigational new drug (IND) status for CanCell (IND #20258) from 1982, which was not granted because the FDA asked for more information but didn’t get it. Specifically, the FDA asked for the chemical formulation (which is proprietary and has not been revealed by Sheridan or any others making the compound) and animal studies demonstrating activity against cancer, which are pretty basic bits of information required for all INDs.
Then, in 1984, a man named Edward J. Sopcak acquired the formula for Entelev. How this came about is somewhat unclear, but we do know that in 1984 the FDA issued an order to cease and desist distributing Entelev to patients. Whether that happened before or after Sopcak acquired the formula is unclear. The company claims it was before, because Sheridan realized the jig was up and that the FDA was going to shut him down; so he wanted to get the formula out to others. (Obviously, that’s not how they put it.) Particularly revealing, albeit no doubt unintentionally so, is this tidbid on the Medical Research Products website describing Sheridan, in which he is described thusly, “Jim also had no tolerance for complying with rigid manufacturing procedures that the FDA demanded.” No doubt, given that at that time he was manufacturing his product in his house, as documented in a famous Detroit Monthly article in 1984, Hope on a Hot Plate (the title was based on the way Sheridan cooked up Entelev on a hot plate in his pantry), and in another incident was observed to be carrying out pH testing in his kitchen while his wife was cooking chicken for dinner.
In any case, Sheridan apparently teamed up with a history teacher from Plymouth, MI named Don Wilson who became a “missionary” for Sheridan; Orville “Orz” Feather, a chemical engineer; and, of course, Ed Sopcak. Thus was CanCell born; it was basically Entelev renamed. By 1989, the FDA asked for and received a permanent injunction against Sheridan and Sopcak prohibiting them from introducing their compound into interstate commerce on the basis that they were adulterated, misbranded, and unapproved new drugs. For several years, this seems not to have stopped Sopcak, who superseded Sheridan as the primary promoter of CanCell, from distributing it under the names Protocel and Entelev. Ultimately, in the 1990s, Sopcak and Sheridan complied, but that didn’t stop other companies from making the same or similar products.
Cantron: False hope
So what are Cantron, Entelev, Protocel, and the plethora of products based on Jim Sheridan’s original “juice”? Finding that out isn’t exactly easy because the formula has been proprietary. Moreover, the purported explanations of how it supposedly works are, to put it kindly, a moving target. However, there are several explanations in common that resemble to some extent the paragraph I cited above. For instance, the Alternative Cancer Treatments Comparison and Testing website, which has a wonderfully catty criticism of Protocel relative to Cantron, which is, according to the website, so much better than Protocel, even though the unwashed masses buy more Protocel because they “mistakenly believe that the Protocel formula is controlled by the developer or his surviving family”:
Both Cantron and Protocel work by reducing the ATP energy (adenosine triphosphate) in each cell of your body. (This is also one of the cancer fighting effects of Paw Paw and Graviola.) Our cells have an electrical potential that effects how the cell processes energy producing substances mostly blood sugar and oxygen from our blood supply…
By reducing this voltage level from 70 to 110 mv to something in the 50 mv region, normal cells can still function. However, cancer and viral cells cannot process energy at this low voltage level and start to starve. The process of starving is a slower process than being poisoned which is why Cancell works slower than chemo and why there was a dramatic reduction in the weight of tumor cells in the two day NCI test of Cancell, but only a small number of dead cells. Had that test run longer, all the tumor cells that showed such dramatic weight reduction would have starved to death. For more on the NCI test, go to the Comments on the NCI Test Summary for Cancell page.
It is always amusing to see such gross ignorance of basic biology, or, as I like to call it, burning stupid. Viruses are not cells. You can’t starve them. They also apparently don’t know that the membrane potential of cells is generally expressed as a negative voltage. I do, however, like the special pleading that the NCI test didn’t measure the right thing, as if the NCI doesn’t know what to measure when testing putative new cancer therapies in vitro and in vivo. Similarly, the part about reducing the resting electrochemical gradient across the cell membrane to the -50 mV range is pure nonsense. The main reason the voltage potential across a cell membrane decreases is either because the cell lacks ATP (which is the source of chemical energy for most cellular reactions, such as the ion pumps that maintain the gradient); something else (a poison, for instance) is inhibiting the ion pumps; or the membrane is leaky, dispersing the ion gradient. In any case, cells have a wide variety of resting potentials, and, in fact, promoters of Cantron get it exactly wrong. In actuality, resting potential corresponds with proliferative potential. Cells with a low proliferative potential tend to have high resting membrane potentials (say, -90 mV), while cells more able to proliferate have a lower resting potential. That includes cancer cells. Of course, it’s more complicated than that in that tumor cells tend to undergo a hyperpolarized phase (higher voltage) while replicating, but the makers of Cantron get the biology all wrong. More differentiated cells tend to have higher resting membrane potential, and lower resting membrane potential tends to be associated with dediffrentiation.
Another claim by Cantron promoters for how it works is Sheridan’s original rationale. In his IND application, he stated that cancer is a protein disease and that there are three kinds of cells: normal, primitive, and cancerous. In a “cancer relationship,” Sheridan argues, cellular proteins become less differentiated than usual and can only replicate cancer proteins. Of course, one notes that in general proteins do not replicate; they are made by transcription and translation of the cell’s DNA, but that didn’t stop Sheridan from claiming that Entelev allowed cancer cells to attain the “primitive state,” which would lead them to self-destruct. This is such utter nonsense from a biological standpoint that it defies reason that a biochemist could believe it, but apparently Sheridan did.
Sopcak’s explanation, on the other hand, was slightly different in that he claimed that cancer cells are mutated anaerobic cells caused by lack of proper diet that causes chemical and electrical damage. His idea of cancer causation is that Progenitor cryptocides becomes active and helps healthy cells respire anaerobically. According to Sopcak, when the cell’s energy needs outstrip the ability of anaerobic metabolism to supply them, the cell mutates and becomes a cancer cell in an irreversible process. One must admit that this sounds a heck of a lot more plausible than Sheridan’s explanation, with its clever co-optation of the Warburg effect and hypotheses that have been around a while about how metabolism can contribute to cancer development. So how does Entelev reverse this process? Here’s where Sopcak goes off the deep end. He claimed that Entelev changed the “vibrational energy and frequency” of cancer cells until they reach the “primitive state” postulated by Sheridan. The cells then autodigest, to be eliminated through the urine, feces, being coughed up, through perspiration, or even through a vaginal discharge. After this happens, cancer cells are replaced by normal cells.
Amusingly, Sopcak has also been quoted as saying that he believes all medicine in the future will ultimately be practiced by adjusting vibrational frequencies. Perhaps that’s why it didn’t take him too long to get into homeopathy. He even made a homeopathic version of CanCell and called it—I kid you not—CanCell, thus causing no end of confusion, particularly because the clear homeopathic version looked very different from the dark-colored original version. In any case, Enteleve/CanCell/Cantron has been promoted as a cure for AIDS, herpes, chronic fatigue syndrome, lupus, endometriosis, Crohn’s disease, fibromyalgia, diabetes, emphysema, scleroderma, Lou Gehrig disease, multiple sclerosis, cystic fibrosis, muscular dystrophy, Parkinson disease, Alzheimer disease, hemophilia, high and low blood pressure, mental illness, and some forms of epilepsy.
And ya might not believe this, little fella, but it’ll cure your asthma, too. I do note, however, that Cantron, or whatever one wants to call it, has been administered orally, rectally, and topically. If you want the nitty gritty of his pseudoscience, he expounds upon his beliefs and claims for Cantron in detail in this interview from 1996. In this interview, he admits that CanCell is nothing but “very pure water” and claims that it’s a “programmed crystal.” Even more amusingly, from a standpoint of homeopathy, he claims that he removes the memory from these water crystals and imprints the memory he wants. Elsewhere, he describes CanCell as a “vibrational catalyst”:
ACRES U.S.A.: Allow us to back up a bit. What is the substance called Cancell? What is the theory behind it? How does it work? How do you make it?
SOPCAK: The new Cancell analyzes as very pure water. That’s what it is.
ACRES U.S.A.: Just very pure water?
SOPCAK: That’s right. It is a programmed crystal. Water is a crystalline substance. If it weren’t crystalline, when it changes its physical state from water to a solid, you wouldn’t get snowflakes. I have simply erased the memory of the water. People make statements such as, There are no two snowflakes exactly the same. That’s because the memory in that crystal is so variable that snowflakes crystalize out just a little differently each time. Before you impress a memory on a crystal, you have to take out the memory that is there. I remove the memory.
ACRES U.S.A.: How do you remove the memory? Is this a case of magnetism?
SOPCAK: No, you can’t come close to this with anything electrical or magnetic, or with any of the dense material like magnets or minerals. We don’t do any of those things. I’d rather not get too deeply into that because I hate to see people become involved in what they don’t understand, and then put out something definitely harmful.
So let me get this straight. If Cantron is the same as CanCell, it’s basically water. However, in the photos on the Medical Research Products website Cantron looks like the dark liquid that Jim Sheridan used to sell as Entelev after cooking it up in on a hot plate in his kitchen and pantry. None of this stops him from going wild with the woo:
Basically, I get extremely fundamental once I make the statement that nothing exists in the entire universe except electromagnetic vibrational frequencies viewed from that plane of observation, that’s it. There’s nothing else. Then what you get into is diseases as vibrational densities. The problem is to raise the vibrational frequency of those densities, and then the body will return itself to normal. Diseases no longer exist.
Vibrations. Why does it always have to be vibrations? Every quack, cancer or otherwise, seems to think that vibrations are the be-all and end-all of everything; that is, when they don’t think that evil humors—excuse me, energy blockages—are the cause of all disease.
So what’s in Entelev/CanCell/Cantron? Not a lot, actually. In 1989, an FDA review found that it is made up of fairly unremarkable chemicals, including nitric acid, sodium sulfite, potassium hydroxide, sulfuric acid, inositol, and catechol. The Cantron website says that it contains copper, sodium, sulfur, postassium, as well as traces of iron, zinc, and bromine. None of what’s in Cantron appears to have any anticancer activity at the levels one might expect in the human body, per the NCI:
In 1990 and 1991, samples of Cancell/Cantron/Protocel were evaluated in NCI’s in vitro 60 Human Tumor Cell Line Screen. The test results are available online. The graphs and the numerical designations for each of the three cancer cell growth criteria (GI50, concentration required for 50% inhibition of cell growth; TGI, concentration required for total inhibition of cell growth; and LC50, concentration required for 50% cell lethality or death) are somewhat complicated, but a technical explanation is provided in the Appendix 3. There is little evidence that any of the constituents of Cancell/Cantron/Protocel would be available in the bloodstream of a patient in significant concentrations after its ingestion. Activity was seen in two-thirds of the cell lines, though at levels that would be roughly 275 times higher than the theoretical maximum concentration achievable in serum. Therefore, the in vitro effects are likely due to nonspecific effects of changes in salt concentration. Furthermore, cells in the NCI Tumor Cell Line Screen are grown in artificial media under conditions that do not truly mimic the in vivo situation in animals or humans, and that results obtained with the screen may not accurately reflect possible effects in humans. To place the findings for Cancell/Cantron/Protocel in perspective any conventional drug exhibiting this low level of in vitro activity in the NCI human cancer cell line screen would normally not be investigated further by NCI.
A dietary supplement?
So how do the manufacturers of Cantron and its many imitators get away with it? How is it that they keep selling it? The answer is easy: Blame the DSHEA of 1994. Cantron, according to Medical Research Products, is a dietary supplement, as explained in these bullet points:
- Cantron is offered only as a dietary supplement.
- Medical Research Products makes no claims nor prescribes this product (or any other product) for the cure, prevention or mitigation of any chronic disease.
- Cantron is not approved by the FDA or endorsed by the AMA for the treatment of any medical condition.
- The FDA has not evaluated any statements of “health claims” made by MRP.
- DO NOT IGNORE THE ADVICE OF YOUR PHYSICIAN. Do not use Cantron in lieu of any life saving treatments which have been prescribed by your physician.
- Cantron is one very important part of a Total Wellness Program where one treats the whole nature of the individual through nutritional supplementation, diet, exercise, meditation, prayer, etc..
- Cantron may be taken by itself, however, it is the primary product in our ‘Total Wellness Program’, which is a portfolio of synergistic products designed to stimulate the body’s own natural healing processes.
This brings us back to Bernie Mulligan. How on earth is it that Bernie Mulligan can be deceived to believe that Cantron will cure his stage IV esophageal cancer, with his liver packed with metastatic tumor? Certainly Medical Research Products isn’t telling him that. To the company, it’s all just a “supplement” that “promotes wellness naturally.” Jerome Godin even emphasizes that in the article, stating in no uncertain terms that he is very careful to obey the law. He does, however, disingenuously add, “I just make my product and those who believe in it usually promote it on their own.”
People like Andy Johnson:
On April 18, Johnson did what he does on the third Wednesday of every month at noon — went to a hall in Warren, unloaded cardboard boxes full of photocopied pamphlets, books and bottles of Cantron, approached the podium and preached the good news.
And preached. And preached. Johnson, an 82-year-old man with wire-rimmed glasses, a neatly trimmed moustache and a tucked-in yellow golf shirt, spoke for an hour. He paused for half an hour to allow people who believe Cantron cured their cancer to tell their stories before launching back into his speech for another 40 minutes.
Johnson made all the claims the company that produces Cantron can’t, and then some. Cantron cures cancer, he said — along with AIDS, knee problems and the common cold. He jumped up and down to illustrate the part about the knee problems.
So what we have in Andy Johnson is a true believer, and, unfortunately, he has a group, the H.O.P.E. Group, to which he can preach his belief every third Wednesday of the month, promoting misinformation such as this, where he recommends that cancer patients use Cantron with a variety of other supplements, including shark liver oil, Enzyme Formula Tablets, Willard’s Water, and Pancreatin. Even worse, Johnson apparently encourages his group members to avoid science-based treatments. Interestingly, though, Johnson’s online footprint is actually quite small, as though he’s flying under the radar. His group doesn’t appear to have its own website, and it’s hard to find out much about him online.
Be that as it may, what we have here is, in my professional opinion, a cancer quack. That he believes in his quackery makes it even worse, because it probably makes him a more effective salesman. Meanwhile, we have a company doing the old “wink, wink, nudge, nudge,” while Johnson says the things that the law prohibits the company from saying about its product. A nice arrangement, isn’t it? The treatment isn’t cheap, either, its manufacturer’s claims of wanting to make it available to everyone notwithstanding. According to the article, it costs about $500 every 20 days.
Unfortunately, the article, after having revealed this quackery, dilutes its message by in essence adding some apologia for “complementary and alternative” medicine. For instance, the author Claire Brownell writes that it’s difficult for patients to separate science from fiction and hearsay (true) but that the also “won’t necessarily get much help from their doctors, who are usually poorly trained about alternative treatments and often dismissive of the entire concept.” She also notes that the case of Cantron “doesn’t mean all alternative treatments are a scam or useless” and then cites a completely inappropriate example to illustrate her point. That example is an application for clinical trials of a dandelion root extract that apparently showed some activity against leukemia in preclinical models. Again, people, that is not in any way “alternative” or “complementary.” It’s pharmacognosy (i.e., natural products pharmacology), which is an old and productive branch of pharmacology. To equate pharmacognosy to pure quackery like Cantron is an insult to cancer pharmacologists everywhere.
I don’t know whether Mulligan is still alive. The last report I could find about him is dated May 27 and is about his attending the Telus Motorcycle Ride for Dad. The saddest part, however, is that, even after Cantron has clearly failed him to the point where even with his aversion to conventional medicine in general and chemotherapy in particular he agreed to take chemotherapy, Bernie Mulligan still believes. It’s a truly horrible thing for a man in his 40s to see the specter of his end approaching 30 or 40 years too early, to contemplate not living to see his daughters grow up, or to have the joy of seeing grandchildren. It’s entirely understandable that, lacking the scientific background to realize that there is no scientifically plausible reason to think that Cantron will work and no scientific evidence supporting its efficacy against any cancer, a man like Mulligan might grasp at anything that he thinks can save him and participate in fundraisers to raise money for an “experimental” cancer treatment. It’s companies like Medical Research Products, whose owners give no indication of being the least bit troubled by the claims being made for its products by people like Andy Johnson, that are to blame.
1,124 replies on “Entelev, CanCell, and Cantron: Not curing cancer since the 1930s”
“People make statements such as, There are no two snowflakes exactly the same. That’s because the memory in that crystal is so variable that snowflakes crystalize out just a little differently each time.”
JohnV — I think you mean “Just woo.”
Orac, I’ve been among those having issues with comments being refused because I’m “commenting too fast”, despite having not said anything for several days. Although I, for one, welcome our new ant overlords, they might want to look into this.
Are we entirely sure this isn’t all an elaborate parody?
“Water is a crystalline substance. If it weren’t crystalline, when it changes its physical state from water to a solid, you wouldn’t get snowflakes.”
Hint: liquid water does not freeze to give snowflakes
That paragraph on vibrations is some of the finest word salad I have encountered in some time. The individual words all mean things, and many of the two- and even three-word combinations are sensible, but none of the full sentences actually means anything.
I know that Medial Research Products has covered their posterior here, but does the law against making medical claims not apply to people like Andy Johnson?
They should make that an exercise in every MBA program. You have $1,000 to buy little bottles, food dye and some labels; make $1,000,000.
Or maybe that’s what we’re looking at here?
Eric, it applies to him, but as a single reseller he’s too small for the FDA to go after him; so maybe someone could get him for practicing medicine without a license. But it sounds like he’s giving his whole spiel a religious undertone, and all bets are off with that. And only if he’s got a connection to the manufactures (like getting wholesale deals directly) someone could get after the true culprits.
@ Eric Lund
I couldn’t have put it better. One doesn’t know where to start the refutation.
Oh, let’s try this:
Water suffers from Alzheimer’s?
(with apologies to people suffering from Alzheimer’s and their kin)
Water is a crystalline substance?
I do not think that word means what you think it means.
“That’s the stuff that’s going to cure me.”
And that’s the reason why we must keep as much woo-lly thinking and quackery out of the acceptable public space as is humanly possible.
This man is just like millions of others who lack the training or other skill sets to make valid judgements about healthcare – procedures, products, protocols, personnel – let alone prognoses. Leading to very bad decisions with horrible consequences. This man is so young. A few weeks more with a more reasonable quality of life could have been immensely valuable if he’d followed science based advice from the onset. There really are times when every day counts.
And many of those equally deceived others are probably equally impressed with all that sciencey talk about vibrations, structures, energy, quantum and all the other fashionable trigger words.
OT ( but when is free-flowing woo un-restricted by higher mental processes ever TRULY OT @ RI?)
Today, Safe Minds’ Katie Weisman ( also @ AoA) announces that studies show that The DSM-5 will reduce the number of ASD diagnoses significantly- therefore ACTION must be taken immediately! Amongst these is an on-line developmental study currently in the works.
I believe that I am observing the germination and early embryonic development of a new conspiracy theory: the new *reduced* numbers that will be diagnosed are evidence of tampering by the powers-that-be; the DSM-5 is merely a cover-up for the ever-increasing and un-ruly growth of the REAL epidemic.
So I suppose all snow-crystals made from a bottle of homeopathic “medicine” are exactly the same, considering they all are supposed to have the same memory. Otherwise it wouldn’t work. At least they claim it works, because the water rememers the stuff that has been in it before they started diluting and shaking the stuff.
It is sad. Very sad indeed. I was a “regular” at breastcancer.org’s support forum for breast cancer patients like me, but I’ve all but given up and thrown in the towel there after being driven away by a group of very vocal and very anti-science posters. I have such mixed feelings about this Protocel post because there’s currently a Stage IV breast cancer patient there sharing her “protocel 23” progress, measured by using a ruler and a protractor, and “evidenced” by eye discharge, nasal drainage, etc. I’m happy to see this science-based discussion of this quackery, but at the same time it breaks my heart to see her believing in the scam instead of seeking “real” treatment.
Enteleve/CanCell/Cantron has been promoted as a cure for AIDS, herpes, chronic fatigue syndrome, lupus, endometriosis, Crohn’s disease, fibromyalgia, diabetes, emphysema, scleroderma, Lou Gehrig disease, multiple sclerosis, cystic fibrosis, muscular dystrophy, Parkinson disease, Alzheimer disease, hemophilia, high and low blood pressure, mental illness, and some forms of epilepsy.
Geez,no mention of autism,yet? And with that pretty little spectrum label,too.
Mulligan sounds just like a “warrior mom”.Anything that mentions cure,is something you should run from as fast as possible.
Thanks for a very informative,and educational post.How DO you ever get the time to do surgery,and stuff.
Denice,for once ASAN,Safe Minds,and AoA are on the same page.ASAN has been screaming about the DSM,and issuing talking points for quite some time,that it would decrease the number of “autistics” diagnosed.Both groups hate that new social disorder designation that the DSM-V will create.
ASAN wants people diagnosed with autism who don’t meet the full criteria.
I don’t really find much I agree with either group on.
I only recently realized that most of the numbers fueling this “epidemic”,and subsequent biomed/woo movement were at the mild end of the spectrum.I sometimes wonder what parents are making all the fuss about.
I never said this on one of these blogs before,but I am one of those old timers,who was diagnosed as having “childhood schizophrenia” in the early 70s,when I was in elementary school.It was either go into an institution,or get doped up on antipsychotics.
When I was reevaluted as an adult,after the DSM-IV,they did not know where to put me.I was much worse than Asperger’s,but not as bad as classic autism.This in addition to all the metabolic-autoimmune stuff.
“Basically, I get extremely fundamental once I make the statement that nothing exists in the entire universe except electromagnetic vibrational frequencies viewed from that plane of observation, that’s it. There’s nothing else. Then what you get into is diseases as vibrational densities. The problem is to raise the vibrational frequency of those densities, and then the body will return itself to normal. Diseases no longer exist.”
Sounds startlingly similar to Terry Bohner from “A Mighty Wind” describing WINC (Witches In Nature’s Colors), “This is not an occult science, this is not one of those crazy systems of divination and astrology. That stuff’s hooey and you’d have to have a screw loose to go in for that sort of thing. Our beliefs are fairly commonplace and simple to understand– humankind is simply materialized color operating on the 49th vibration. You would make that conclusion walking down the street or going to the store.”
Only, y’know, Mighty Wind is brilliant satire, and CancerWoo is dangerous bullshit.
AVOID ALL REFINED SUGAR!
Dextrose, Maltose, Sucrose, Fructose, corn syrup, etc. It FEEDS cancer (like putting gasoline on a fire) and raises energy levels,defeating Cantron. Natural sugar in limited quantity is acceptable.Being positive and believing in what you are doing will help get you well and is the most important component to increase your chances to getting
Amazing this is the same kind of woo,we have heard for years from the antivaccine crowd,about autism,and its “connection” to yeast/fungus//candida.
Those bullet points are just a variant of the quack miranda warning.
Jim’s juice,Willard’s water at least these people have a sense of humor.Disturbing images of Bruce Davison notwithstanding.
“According to the article, it costs about $500 every 20 days.”
But we have to cover our expenses! All those bottles, all that distilled water, all those coloured labels, they don’t come cheap y’know! Plus, I have decades of expertise in woo – that’s worth paying for as well. We’re barely breaking even and only doing this out of the goodness of our hearts. Not like Big Pharma, who are gouging money out of desperate, sick people, just to poison them!
And now the ad at the top of this blog is for “J. Humble approved MMS Miracle”….
I know who you are talking about and it really pisses me off how that certain group of anti-science, anti-intellectual alties are cheering her on.
I have had enough of the idiots cheering on Chilli and let them have it. As a result the moderators have banned me from the boards.
Chilli is a woman that was stage one, hormone postivie, HER2-, breast cancer. Instead of treatment she embarked on a host of alternative therapies. She started a blog and became an MLMer. Her goal was to help and council people cure themselves from cancer with alternatives, while she made a living at it at the same time. Her slow growing indolent tumor grew very slowly over the next 7 years and she felt healthy. Year 7 it broke through her chest and spread like wildfire. The pain and the terrible stench brought her back to conventional medicine. For the past 3 years, she has had chemotherapy to try to shrink the tumor so she could have a mastectomy. She has not reported any other distant metastases besides the widespread skin mets. Chemo failed at clearing up the skin mets. She reports that the first two chemos work and by the 3rd chemo, her skin mets start growing again. She has numerous small tumors that have broken through the skin and some rather large ones. The most remarkable is a 23 cm fungating tumor on her breast that has spread halfway down her abdomen and to her back. The pain is excruciating esp. when she showers or tries to dress. The pain and the stench are so bad that she can no longer leave her house. She is on heavy duty painkillers.
Last month her oncologist decided to start her on the chemo drug Adriamycin and she reports that it was stopped after the 3rd treatment because it wasn’t working and her oncologist “gave her the talk”.
She posted a link to a site that sold black salve from Indonesia. There were very graphic picures of a fungating breast tumor which Chilli reported as looking exactly like hers. I told her this was a scam on the message board and pm’d her why. The alties called me stupid, ignorant and mean spirited on the boards and in personal messages.
Nevertheless, Chilli tried black salve on her smail tumors and also bought something that she’s taking in capsule form, which she claims is black salve. She claims she has tried black salve on her smaller tumors and the pain is excruciating but she has drawn out the tumors “including the roots” She explains that her salves are working differently as one is pushing out the tumor and the other is pulling out the tumor.
The alties cheer her own and tell her she is making a medical breakthrough. They tell her to document everything and save her tumors to be studied by researchers. None of them even have the basics down of biology, physiology or what cancer is or how it works.
I submitted a post on the alties lack of understanding and tell Chilli again that this is a scam and the only thing that black salve is doing is burning a big hole through her tissue. Of course this started an altie shitstorm and there were cries to ban me. Nothing new as the alties have been trying to get me banned for the last year. I get a notice that I have been banned but only until the 25th of June for violating forum rules. Alties are then free to post comments like, “so what if black salve might cause infection and bleeding. Any women getting a mastectomy has the same risks and no surgeon will operate so it makes sense for her to burn her breast off with black salve. What does she have to lose?”
Thenewme, I don’t think that I am going back to BCO, either. I have had quite enough. The mods quickly put up a quack miranda warning after my post. That site is owned by 2 physicians and supported by donations. It brings in millions of dollars every year and both physicians take salaries in the neighborhood of $200,000 a year. I would love to see them both cough up a mere $15,000 a piece and hire a physician, nurse practioner, or physician’s assitant part time to debunk the psuedoscience on the altie boards. But I am sure that would be asking too much. Whenever I complained about this to the moderators, who also have no background in science or medicine, I was told BCO supported that everyone has consent to make their own choices. What they don’t seem to understand is that the alties on that forum do not have informed consent. There are so many of them that have progressed to stage four because of all the support that they have gotten on the altie boards. I would love to see those boards taken down but it aint gonna happen.
As a counter to the woo contingent’s labeling of mainstream cancer treatment as “cut, poison and burn”, maybe we should refer to altie cancer care as “enemas, vibrations and metastasis”.
But the alties have to omit burn out of “cut, poison and burn”, because that is what black salve does.
Oh wait, the mechanism of action is” pushing and pulling out tumors” and not burning.. Any hard core alite will tell you so and they certainly have.schooled me.. Black salve also has the ability to differentiate between cancerous tumors and normai tissues. My bad.
This page is carrying an advert for MMS Miracle 4oz for $8 in the header section. It says it’s J. Humble approved.
Not the first see this – apology.
@Black-cat : Having never heard of ‘Black Salve,’ I looked it up on Bing.
1: QuackWatch was the sixth hit – unfortunately, under the Shopping link.
2: Holy jumping $hitballs, people _do_ that?
Hey, Black-Cat! Good to see you here! Stinks that you were banned from BCO! I’ve been banned so many times for daring to mention any evidence-based information that contradicts their quackery. It’s so sad and very disturbing that real cancer patients are looking to that site for treatment information and the site apparently isn’t interested in maintaining any sort of evidence-based standards.
@Roadstergal, yep! Not only do people do that, other “breast cancer patients” cheer them along, praising them for being so brave and heroic. People who post *real* information are quickly driven away/banned/etc. Ugh.
@Roadstergal. My message to you got lost in cyperspace. It may be because I posted inks. As thenewme stated, people do this. I have found black salve testimonials all over the net.
You can see the black salve site and Chilli’s post on BCO if you go to breast cancer org, forums, alternative medicine and go to the thread, “topic:scary bc removal photos”
@thenewme-another good person was also driven away. You know the one.. She has a degree in microbiology at the graduate level and had a lifelong career as a microbiologist in research. Two of her children are also physicians She has been told that she is extremely ignorant by an extremely ignorant alte. Another alitie has told her that she doesent know how to read and interpret the studies she posts and suggsted that she should get educated before she posts anything.on the altie fourm again.
It’s amazing, I don’t think I’ve ever seen a snake oil that -didn’t- claim to cure chronic fatigue and Lyme disease.
My daughter used to post at an altie parenting site. She started when she was breastfeeding her first child. Now she says there are new rules. You will be banned if you talk about weaning, circumcision, or vaccinating your child. I have also posted at BreastCancer.org and it has become apparent that the regulars on the altie threads there want that type of control over what is posted about breast cancer treatment.
When people don’t have facts on their side they turn to bullying. It is a shame. But at least we can come here for a dose of sanity.
@ Roger Kulp:
Yes, according to studies @ Yale ( reviewed by Jon Brock) the diagnoses of Asperger’s will be most reduced.
I think I’m slightly older than you are. Despite my education in psych, autism was considered a relatively rare syndrome- whereas MR and various ‘neuroses” and ‘psychoses” were more often the topics of discussion. Altho’ we were starting to regard *social* cognition in child/ adolescent development.
Personally, throughout my peripatetic degree quest: *wherever* I was or *whatever* I was studying, I believe I knew quite a few gentlemen who would have been diagnosed as having Asperger’s if they had been born later. I think that Simon Baron-Cohen may be on to something with his ideas of certain career choices- engineers, scientists,- the organisers. Doesn’t the UK study of older autists show a figure of around 1% despite age? I would expect that.
RE: black salves
The entire sordid, despicable tale of Greg Caton and *Cansema* is recounted at Wikipedia and other places.
Bizarrely enough, when he was caught, chief amongst his *defenders* was MIke Adams, the Health Ranger ( see stories at Natural News via search function)
Health freedom,, right. Freedom to harm.
@Denice Walter I have sent the woman using black salve the link to quackwatch. I read the wikipedia article but failed to send her that one. I don’t think it would have mattered if I did. The alties on BCO claim that quackwatch is a hate site and that wikipedia does not support alternative medicine.
The person who has the indonesia black salve site calls himself Wayan. He has personally called her and sends her frequent emails. She’s eccstatic that someone so important cares about her and can make her look normal again. She has stopped seeing her oncologist and is resorting to emails.
It just figures that Mike Adams is a black salve supporter. The alties rant and rave about their health ranger hero.
whoops, I got canton and black salve mixed up. I can’t keep track of all these miracle cures.
one of the woo-meisters I survey tells the faithful that Dr Barrett is chief amongst alt med’s enemies ( Orac has been mentioned as well) . Oddly, he nevers mentions the site’s real name – he calls Dr Barrett and other sceptics, “quackbusters”- I believe it’s because that name leads to Bolen’s anti-SBM site, not Barrett’s – lord forbid his audience read that!
Supposedly, Barrett, wikipedia and other sceptics will meet their eventual comeuppance in court where brave health freedom fighters fight most of their scientific battles.-btw- The idiot’s 100million USD suit against wikipedia has already been dismissed. ( courtesy of quackwatch)
SOPCAK: “No, you can’t come close to this with anything electrical or magnetic, or with any of the dense material like magnets or minerals. We don’t do any of those things. I’d rather not get too deeply into that because I hate to see people become involved in what they don’t understand, and then put out something definitely harmful.
Basically, I get extremely fundamental once I make the statement that nothing exists in the entire universe except electromagnetic vibrational frequencies viewed from that plane of observation, that’s it. There’s nothing else. Then what you get into is diseases as vibrational densities. The problem is to raise the vibrational frequency of those densities, and then the body will return itself to normal. Diseases no longer exist.”
It’s been awhile since my psych rotation, but that sounds awfully similar to the things I’d hear from the inpatient schizophrenics…
The quacks who sell Protocel and related compounds have quite a scam going. Patients are told that its effects wax and wane so if there is evidence of the tumor getting larger they should just continue on with the therapy. wasting valuable time they could have been using on cancer therapy that works.
Altho’ it does indeed sound like in-patient schizophrenics, it *also* sounds a great deal like Royal Rife AND Gary Null.
The alties on BCO love TIm Bolen. He is their mentor and savior. They post all his latest updates on Dr Barret and of course the vulgar rants on Orac. They have posted that Dr Barret is delicensed and works as an estesian in a nail salon in a strip mall. They know this because Timmy told them so.
I posted parts of Timmy’s depostion in the aetna lawsuit against the maker of that bogus dental advice. You know the ones where he forgot where he lived and did not remember how many years he went to school.
Really pissed off the alties.
Here are some of the greatest hits of the BCO alties concerning Quackwatch and Orac:
What’s more, you don’t have to be a descendent of Einstein to know that Orac, Quackwatch and all their so-called reliable sources have no real place on an alternative medicine forum. It’s just spam
BEWARE of Quackwatch–biased “research” from Wikipediia
“Watching the Watchdogs at Quackwatch” by Joel M. Kauffman, Ph.D. (Professor Emeritus of the Department of Chemistry & Biochemistry at University of the Sciences
I get really cranky when people invite themselves to the Alt forums with their quackpot propaganda and leave trails of insults. I’ve seen minimum half a dozen links to the quackwatch and Orac’s sites in the past 24 hours. There are way too many squatters of that sort here and BCO should address this major problem before things get really out of hand
Quackbusters: “Bullys” Barrett, Baratz, Sued For 1.3 Million in Canada
According to court documents recently filed in Canada, Barrett and Baratz’s “bullying” was listed in 86 separate “claims,” with 176 separate “allegations,” 463 requests to admit, backed by a demand for authenticity of 47 documents
Dr. Stephen Barrett of Quackwatch Exposed In Court Cases
Now, that sounds pretty hostile to me, and your casewatch and quackwatch sources laughable
Could not find much on Tim Bolen except for his website (very interesting reading) but did find a whole lot of very confused ramblings from the quackwatchers/skeptics’ guru. Oh Boy !! he thinks he’s a prophet, scarrrrry
While quackwatch is busy trying to shoot down those who promote alternative cures and use of supplementation, a nasty drug like Cipro slips through the cracks and causes permanent injury
Glad most of you enjoyed the article about the quack who runs quackwatch.
have been keeping abreast of what is happening with a group called, quackwatch, often cited around here, as a source for “exposing” holistic health businesses. Here is the latest on a lawsuit that hopefully will exonerate those who the quacks at quackwatch are trying to push out of business:
Could the Doctor’s Data “Protective Order” Actually Shut Down Barrett,
Quackwatch, and the Skeptics?
Opinion by Consumer Advocate Tim Bolen
Vivre, this is excellent news. That QW site is just a hate site with no review system or any way to remove inaccurate or biased information. Thanks for posting the other site.
The newspaper described Barrett who runs the quackwatch site as a de-licensed doctor who runs a hair removal parlor in a strip mall. You can’t make this stuff up.
I tried to read a Hulda Clark book once but it was really technical and way over my head. If her methods work, then the parasite theory is a moot point. After all, pain killing tablets still work regardless of whether we understand what exactly caused the pain.
I like to look for similarities in cancer treatments that have had some success. Intestinal cleanses, fasts, juicing, low energy diets, these seem to be common to many versions of treatments though it’s hard to know how successful each treatment was without proper studies.
I posted this about Bolen and it worked. The alties have stopped quoting him.
You probably did not know that Tim Bolen is indigent and collecting welfare. Yep, our tax dollars are paying for the trash that Tim Bolen is spewing. He is vulgar, highly dishonest, has no intregrity or class and seems to attract the same kind of people. Like attracts like. I understand that he is Vivre’s mentor and hero, also. He has such a potty mouth that I like to refer to him as Timmy Toilet Mouth or simply timmytoilet. His real name is Patrick and he has a cousin named TIm that wants him to stop using the name as he does not want to be mistaken for this moron.
Here is is trying to remember where he lives which is hilarious. Timmie summers in a post office box and winters in a shack in the Cleveland National Forest. He has no electricity and uses a squat toilet. What kind of person lives in a shack in a national forest? Can you say unibomber. I knew you could.
I hope not to sound crank-ish, but …
is it really productive to attempt to bring science to places whose purpose is provide a congregation for arrogant, spiteful anti-science con artists? These people look less like innocent victims and more like a mob.
It might be better to encourage them to document their progress, including “temporary” setbacks (all the more evidence that faith healing overcomes!) and scrupulously avoid pharma/radiation/hospitals and rigid conventional logic. Encourage photos, measurements and exams by conventional MDs but no nasty conventional medicine. One needs to have some 3rd party records.
If an altie expires they’re just returning to the crystal energy sphere or whatever… how can they have a problem with that?
Should Orac post some insolence about BCO? Does he know the owners?
Black-cat, your experience with the breast cancer support forum seem eerily familiar. I had very similar things happen when I was on the Apraxia-Kids listserv. One person tried to get me booted off just because I mentioned that the MMR vaccine did not contain thimerosal, and I received lots of nasty grams when I wrote a comment saying chelation was a bad idea. So I left. And then Roy Kerry killed a kid just because he was autistic by forced chelation a month or so later.
Ah, yes! I remember Tim Bolen from those days. I had joined the Healthfraud listserv and posted some comments. Bolen had also signed up for it and was reading our emails, plus gathering them up to spam us. When I changed service providers I did not sign up again (except much later, but I only lurk). More on Tim Bolen:
@Kelly M Bray
The site is owned by Marsha Weis M.D. and Hope Wahl.
Here is their 2008 non profit tax exemption form:
In 2007, BCO pulled in 4.5 million with 1.4 million going to salaries. In 2008 BCO pulled in 2.5 million with 1.6 million going to salaries. They made a llittle more than half the money of the previous year but salaries were increased.
Marsha Weiss was compensated $240,901 and reported a 40 hour workweek.
Hope Wohl drew a salary of 196,119 and also reported a 40 hour workweek. 3 others have salaries of 100,000 including the director of marketing.
I don’t know what they are doing with their 40 hour work weeks as they sure haven’t showed up in the altie forums.
A cynical person would say that the crazies help drive the traffic. Kind of like making money off dead and dying people without really helping them…..
Oh God, we have the anti vaccers on BCO too. I think a good little militant altie has to be an anti vaccer to fit in and be excepted by the woo community.
I love ratbags and Peter Bowditch. That picture of him sitting outside Timmy’s post office box residence is priceless.
The video of Timmy in the deposition trying to remember his education is priceless. He spent 16 years in community college and could not remember his major and never graduated.
I read the whole deposition. I forget where I found it. It was scary and hilarious. I wish whoever has it would post it on the internet. I would love to see the video.
The scariest part was that Timmy admitted under oath that he has no employment, no income, is on county welfare for his wife’s medical bills and that he traveled across county (from southern california to the one of the southern states where Dr Barret lives) He stood outside Dr. Barret’s house and took pictures and posted them on the internet.
Timmy also admitted under oath that he owns guns, lots of guns and can’t remember the exact number or if his guns are registered with the state of california.
I found Ratbags and Peter Bowditch through Quackwatch. His site was the link to find the untrustworthy website (the 1000 links Bowditch did not like). From there I signed on to the Healthfraud listserv, and decided to spend more time on Usenet.
And on Usenet I was introduced to Orac. So here I am. I started commenting on his blogspot page when it started with my old poisonous ‘nym. The one in which Scudamore created a whale.to page for (something that makes me proud).
@Kelly M Bray
Re: A cynical person would say that the crazies help drive the traffic. Kind of like making money off dead and dying people without really helping them…..
The altie forums generate more traffic than any of the others esp. if there is an argument going on. If it gets too vicious, the moderators pull the thread from the active threads so nobody seesit and starts deleting posts. I had many non threatening rational posts deleted and asked why. The moderators told me that the thread was getting contentious and even though I did not violate forum rules, my post was upsetting the alties. They felt it better to pull it to keep the peace.
I am keeping a list of the women that have progressed to stage four and some because of that forum. One started out stage 1 and started out on the stage one forum. She found the altie forum, was told she could cure herself by some uneducated idiots. She found Robert O Young and believed cancer was a fungas. She has just been diagnosed as stage 4 with liver mets. She still believes her cancer is a fungas and is treating it with an intervenous antifungal drug given to her by an alternative nurse practionar
Than there is the 37 mother of 3 that was diagnosed stage 3 and had a mastectomy but was persuaded by the alties not to have chemo or radiation. She saw that drug addicted quack Thomoas Lodi at Oasis of Hope in Arizona. She is now stage 4.
I am keeping a list of all the women that were harmed by the altie boards on BCO
The con artists and other leaders of these congregations are not going to be swayed, that’s true. But we can always hope to convince the fence-sitters and lurkers, and maybe get a few of the believers to check again what science has to say, but more deeply this time.
The two are not necessarily exclusive. It’s a community, whose gurus claim to be under fire by officials for daring to propose a super cure and competing with the big shots. So mob-like protecting behavior is to be expected, especially form the hard-core believers.
But at the individual level, most of them are innocent, unless you count believing in weird stuff as a crime.
I will amend this by agreeing that, in case of MMS by example, giving to your child a toxic substance after being repeatedly told of its toxicity (it’s bleach!) pull you out of the innocent group.
On one hand, we would love for all of these promise-makers to document their treatments and publicize them, including the unsuccessful ones. It would make it easier to distinguish between the snake oil vendors, the deluded, and, who knows, those who may be onto something.
On the other hand, there are ethical issues (the woo believers are not treating themselves, but their children), and also, a number of them are mixing woo and mainstream treatments.
A typical story is for parents to give antibiotics to their sick child, not noting any improvement after 2 days, and then giving the child vitamin C, or whatever else is in fashion. And next day, voila, instant cure.
Only altie treatments that seem to have worked are publicized. Even those cases are “forgotten” if the patient dies of their cancer.
I am always amazed how nausea vomiting and weakness are evil side effects of conventional cancer teratment but with alternative treatment are sign that the body is ridding itself of toxins or fungi or viruses or the altie cancer cure de jour.
If I read your story about Chilli, I wonder how stubborn some people can be. Turning to alties to fight cancer, then, when it doesn’t work, go to conventional methods, which can’t offer much, because the spread of the cancer, and though the alties didn’t work and are responsible for the spread of the cancer, return to them, to make things even worse, if that is possible.
Dextrose, Maltose, Sucrose, Fructose, corn syrup
autism,and its “connection” to yeast/fungus//candida.
gee…I think I’ll have a lambic beer 🙂
seriously, how do they think beer was made for many thousand years before the discovery & use of saccharomyces cerevisiae and if beer was responsible for autism, you’d have a new meaning of the word epidemics…
I don’t think it’s about being stubborn but rather living in a fantasy world where you can have anything you want if you just want it hard enough.
One of the biggest and most dangerous moron’s of BCO announced a while back that she was going to make a living for her family being a day trader. Never mind that to be successful in this field you need to pursue an MBA and than intern wtih a good company when you get out. Even than a lot of people don’t make it. She was going to be a successful day trader because she thought she would be good at it and believed in the secret.
She returned 3 weeks later announceing that she had lost money and was very depressed that she wasnt able to support her family. The same women flunked out of nursing school and than naturopathic school and reasoned that it was because school was for elitists and she just did not fit in.
None of this stops her from counseling women not to get chemotherapy and radiation and to pursue alternatives. She also believes surgery spreads cancer.
She used to go by Sheila but her new name is JoyLiesWithin.
Here are the blogs of the 2 oher women that I mentioned. We are not supposed to know how sick they are and tthese blogs are top secret. In fact JoyLiesWithin just reported on BCO that this women is doing OK.
This is the woman that started out stage one, progressed to stage 2 and found a quack cancer treatment center that agreed with her that cancer was a fungas. I believe she had 40 treatments consisting of IV laetrile, DMSO and vitamin C. They cost in the neighborhood of 60,000 cash. Cash only and they will not accept credit cards..
After her 40 treatments, she received a PET scan that revealed a liver met and that she was stage 4. She was told her cancer is very angry and that she needs more treatments. She has found a NP that will give her an IV antifungal.
When her cancer breaks through her skin and becomes a stinking, oozing, putrid, painful mess, she finally can rest assured that she has proved to herself that cancer is a fungas.
Here’s the blog of the 37 year old mother of 3 that is being treated by Thomas Lodi and now stage 4. This page is asking for donations because his treatment is 50 to 80 thousand dollars for 13 weeks.
Here’s her facebook page:
Eye of newt, toe of frog, yeast, water…let it ferment in a large covered cauldron and you should have beer in a few weeks. I am not a brewer, but enjoy a fine beer every so often.
Those are horrible stories!
Unfortunately, I read/ hear the *other* side of the despicable anti-SB cancer care equation- i.e. those who *sell* the idea of use-less and dangrous TIME-WASTING treatments to trusting people who are terrified of medical interventions.
These liars broadcast/ blog falsities of easy cures and natural treaments without the horrendous side effects of SB chemotherapy and radiotherapy.( Actually without ANY effects). Over the years, these same prevaricators also boasted of their successful, non-pharmaceutical cures of HIV/AIDS. Most of the ‘cured’ are now in graves or funerary urns.
Actually two of the biggest offenders ( and there are many) now enjoy web popularity as they sell supplements and ‘educational materials’ at high profit while teaching the faithful that doctors are killers.
So what can *we* do? Well, we’re doing it.
More power to you!
Re: Actually two of the biggest offenders ( and there are many) now enjoy web popularity as they sell supplements and ‘educational materials’ at high profit while teaching the faithful that doctors are killers.
Let me guess: Mike Adams and Joe Mercola
Partially correct: Adams and Null. Mercola is right up amongst the elect bu ist not as flaming, grandiosely mad. While Adams and Mercola may have a higher number at facebook, Null serves as a clearing-house and gathering place for all manner of woo- all the slime trickles down *chez lui*.
@ Denice Walter
Null is a new one on me. Just when you thought it safe to go back into the water.
I found this youtube video of the 2nd woman.
Trina is wornoutmom on BCO. She does not mention that she is receiving Hercepton and Zometa on BCO and wants the alties to believe that Lodi with his ozone treatments, vitamin C and IPT are curing her cancer.
She has posted videos of Lodi but remains hush hush of who he is because the man and big pharma are after him. She wishes she can shout the cure throughout the world but he tellls her to keep it hush hush for now
I forgot to mention Vivre, who sells Usana and other shit on BCO and gets away with it. Here is her latest post:
I have a wonderful doctor blogging for me, who survived BC without chemo, rads or surgery. Check her out on my website.
Here is her website:
Vivre is selling supplements on BCO and convincing women not to get treatment becaause conventional treatment kills.
She has been instrumental in persuading impositve and wornoutmom not to get treatment and to pursue althernatives. She is dangerous and sends personal messages to women that are stage one breast cancer even the ones that are HER2+. She scares them and sends them to her site and tries to sell them Usana.
She is also in Chicago and also advertises the antivax conventions with Christine Northrup.
Both thenewme and I have sent numerous complaints to the moderators that have just replied that Vivre just expresses that she likes usana and that’s OK.
Some of Vivre’s greatest hits on bco:
Check out this video from one of the docs I heard speak at the expo:
Like Althea, I have been hangin out elsewhere lately. I just spent three days in holistic health heaven at The Health Freedom Expo in Chicago. I heard so many amazing doctors and speakers. Here are some of my favorites:
Dr. John Apsley-former Olympic swimmer hopeful who had a health crisies right before the Olympics in about 76. He had to change course and became a doctor who has studied healthy civilizations all over the world. He has a new book coming out about alternative cancer treatments.
Dr. Leonard Coldwell-An inspiring man who talked about the important of emotional healing. I got his new book “The Only Answer to Surviviing Your Illness and your Doctor”. Can’t wait to read i.
Dr. Carolyn Dean-I got an autographed copy of her book that I have had my eye on for quite a while about Magnesium.
I got to meet Marilu Henner. What a firecracker. She talked about how she finally met her soul mate, only to discover he had cancer 2 months later. She got him healthy with nurition and he is still alive, even though the doctors said there was not much they could do.
There were a lot of health freedom fighters as well. Jonathan Emord is the only lawyer who has successfully won cases against the FDA and I met folks from a non profit that I really trust, The National Health Federation, who are trying to stop the FDA’s push to get congress to regulate supplements.
You should all try to attend these events in LA or Chicago. It is a wonderful learning experience.
Also, I am looking into water distillation. PM me if you want more info.
The iodine protocol involves taking Lugols iodine or iodoral which is a tablet. The protocol must be taken with the companion nutrients of vit C, b’s, magnesium, selenium and “salt loading “. Just taking a couple of drops or painting in on will not amount to much. The best way to start is by getting dr. Brownsteins Iodine and Thyroid books. Read the books, then let me know if you have any questions.
Madpeacock-iodine helps to detoxify and kills infection. Why do you think it was a mainstay of medicine until they came out with all those other medications. Then they tried to get iodine off the shelves. It is almost impossible to find in Europe. We can’t have any cheap alternatives. We have to speak out and not allow drug companies to rule us. I am getting together with a few friends this week to mix our own lugols to save money. You can see how to make it on youtube.
Marianna-It sounds like you need to detox from the inside. Also, try fish oil. It is great for skin issues. Our skins is a picture of what is happening underneath. Your skin will clear up once you get all the toxins out. And I can identify with the appointment phobia, except that I was not worried about the outcome, I just did not want to go and argue with the doctors. So I went once and that was that. Have not been back to any doc who wanted to “monitor” me. I am not a child. I can monitor myself. I found my way to doctors who helped me to get well. Why do I want to go back to those who have nothing to offer but tests. I can get those done anywhere. And the therms give me such peace of mind, because I can see changes, which are mostly positive. (if I could j
ust clear out the damage from the friggin radiation).
GeeWhiz-try to find a doctor who specializes in hormones. Oncs usually have no clue. A great book to read is “Hormones Explained”. Dr. Raschid does a great job of explaining hormones, one of the best hormone books I have read, and I have read several. And also check your thyroid levels. For me, that was the key to hormone balance, along with diet, and as you discovered, sweating. Exercise produces serotonin and serotonin helps to produce melatonin, the sleep hormone. All of the hormones are interelated and the thryoid is the regulator of them all. That is why I could not get balanced until I addressed my hypothyroid. I do not take any medications. I just follow the iodine protocol and add supplements as needed. I also use my far infrared sauna almost everyday, which releases built up toxins and helped me to sleep again, like I use to. My girlfriend was reluctant to spend the money on one, but she finally bought one because she could not sleep and she could not believe how it has worked for her. Check out the thryoid/iodine thread for lots of information about the iodine protocol.
Althea-Have you tried oil pulling? It works better than toothsoap any day. I had a gum flare up last week. I had the mercury amalgam removed almost 2 years ago but the tooth was still very sensitive so my holistic dentist told me to keep doing the oil pulling. When I started oil pulling, after a couple of days, it drew out bacteria and I ended up with a terrible toothache. I did not want to go to my dentist right away so I just worked on it myself. I doubled my Vit C and D, brushed with my Usana toothpaste, which contains xylitol which is a great for killing bacteria, and I continued oil pulling with coconut oil, with a drop of lugol’s and a dab of honey, which is also antibacterial. I also use kyolic garlic because it is concentrated and is also antibacterial. By the next day, all the pain was gone and has not returned! Regular oil pulling can get rid of peridontal disease. I looked at the stuff that was in that dental kit and it seemed pretty expensive. Adding up all that I used, it was probably under $20. Oil pulling sounds crazy but it does work. Another thing I like is a mouthwash called Spry that is only about $5 a bottle. It too contains xylitol, no flouride and lots of other good stuff.
They don’t think.
Another strange HuffPo post has all the cancer alties dancing.
… I thought I’d been desensitized enough and now this comes along. You mean these people are fully aware that they are sick as hell despite all the altie treatments they’re taking, but they’ve made the choice to lie to the majority of the world to try and make people believe the altie treatments are wonderful??
I just don’t know what to say. I can sympathize with someone who perceives a conflict between keeping their integrity or keeping their life. I’m speechless at someone who chooses to pour both into the latrine in the same motion.
To be truthful, Null’s an old one. He’s been selling nonsense disguised as health information for 40 years! He is especially well-known for his ‘exposes’ of the cancer industry ( which appeared in an American skin mag) and preaching the gospel of ozone, mega- doses of vitamin C and coffee enemas. He is an HIV/AIDS denialist and works hard to frighten people away from SB treatments and medical expertise.
A good intro to his brand of crankery would be Quackwatch and Wikipedia. Also lee-phillips.org. Orac, Dr Novella and others wrote about his poisoning by his own supplements. He has two websites : Gary Null.com and the Progressive Radio Network.com . Yes, his own internet radio station to broadcast dangerous health mis-information and sell his products. He has influenced many younger alt meddlers and provides a platform for woo of all stripes as well as political and philosophical dabblers.
That sounds like some of the postergirls for HIV/AIDS denialism- correction, the *now deceased* postergirls.
Antaeus — I think it’s because pride is such a hard thing to let go of. They are willing to lie because it’s better than admitting the truth. They are likely lying to themselves as well, or they’re figuring that yeah, they’re not okay now, but pretty soon they’ll turn the corner, and the lies will be true. It’s not lies. It’s . . . anticipatory truth. Yeah. That’s it.
It’d be great material for a classic tragedy.
They all do it, even Kim Tinkum never mentioned on twitter or her blog that Robert O Youngs treatment failed her. Chilli is still an MLMer and has an altie blog that does not mention how sick she is.
Wornoutmom (trina) is getting zometa and herceptin from a real medical facility now and than goes to Oasis of Hope. She still posts on BCO that she is healing herself with her alternative regiman.
All 3 women believe that alternatives will cure them of stage 4 cancer. and will blame themselves when death is immiment. It will be easy for Trina because she had to scale down her treatments due to not raising enough funds. I am sure Lodi will be pointing the finger.
Now I remember who Gary Null is. He’s the same one that overdosed on his own vitamin D supplements. The BCO alties love him and are always posting podcasts.
I suggest you read about Null @ Quackwatch, Wikipedia, lee-phillips.org, RI, SBM so you might have concise repartee for his faithful. He discourages mammograms and SB treatments for breast cancer while encouraging supplements, diets and other nonsense. His gross earnings are in the vicinity of 10 million USD a year ( spoke.com; manta.com)
I’m a psychologist so OBVIOUSLY I wouldn’t EVER diagnose anyone but I suggest that you listen to some of his rants or read his writing and decide for yourself how sound of mind he is. He is a nasty piece of work who likes to sue his critics as Dr Phillips and Wikipedia learned ( both cases thrown out of court).
I am fortunately, a very cautious person.
Thanks for the heads up. I will check out Null tonight. He appeals to the older women on BCO. They gush over how healthy, and younger than his age he looks. They think he’s a real dish. He has quite a following over there and I am sure they line his pockets.
10 million a year is sickening. If he is counseling against mammograms, he must be into thermagrams. I did get a good laugh out of Null overdosing on supplements.
My training is in paramedic and nursing. My goal was to get a dual nurse practionar and physicians assistant license and continue working in emergency.
Luckily, the prereqs of micro, physiology, anatomy, and chem gave me a basic science knowledge and allowed me not to fall for quackery when I was diagnosed with breast cancer.
I was diagnosed stage 3C, inflammatory breast cancer. It’s a very nasty, rare, and fast growing cancer and it is virtually undetectable on memmograms until stage 3 or 4. It grows in sheets through the skin.
It was quite a shock and I was overwhelmed with information on the type of chemos that I was going to have and radiation. My radiation oncologist told me that I needed to have a much higher dose than normal and let me know the real nasty side effects that I could have later on in life. Even with all this nasty treatment, I was given a 40% five year survival rate and a 30% 10 year survival rate. I was a basket case and needed anxiety medication and medication to sleep. I understand why the alties go into a fantasy world when someone tells them they have the cure. No breast cancer has a 100% certain cure rate.
Next week will be year 3 for me and time for another PET/CAT. If I am cancer free I am told my 5 year survival stats will go up.
I worked with impositive for 2 years to no avail. I looked up her stats on cancer math and her stage one cancer with treatment gave her an 85% cure rate. That wasnt good enough for her. She needed 100% cure guarentee and she went to quacks that would give it to her. Someone just sent me her blog along with Trina’s blog. When I read that impositive is now stage four it was like someone kicked me in the gut. I’m just numb and angry now. I would have given my eye teeth to trade diagnoses with her as would all of the women on BCO that were stage 4 from the get go. She went from stage 1 to stage 4 in two years. Trina had a 50% cure rate and she dropped it down to zero also. She was diagnosed stage 3 at 36 years of age and at stage 4 at 37 years of age.
I think I am done with the alties of BCO. I have pulled all the stops and they won’t listen to reason. I’m hated and resented there. I even told them that I was going to be a quack and make lots of money. An alite asked me what is the difference between an alternative practionar becoming rich or an oncologist becoming rich. I told her oncologists are not rich and they have to work for a living.
I posted this on how easy it would be to be a rich quack:
All valid scientific evidence presented against pseudoscience will be met with opposition and bizarre rationalizations. Vague and/or poorly documented anecdotes will be presented as concrete evidence that this specific woo can cure cancer by those who have a profound misunderstanding of basic science. Much of the evidence presented, will have some paragraphs poached from an intro to physiology, general, organic or biochem, or microbiology textbook for college freshman. This can be text, charts or diagrams. The only alterations will be whatever the woo du jour is being presented. This way it sounds all sciency and makes sense to those that would fail a high school biology or chem class.
I could be a very rich woo meister. It really would not take much effort. There would be very little overhead to get started and to maintain my woo business. I would appeal to the anti-science and the anti-intellectual crowd. I’ll have thousands of marks, er, uh, I mean customers.
I’ll just have to pay a web designer, get me some introduction to life science books, and of course empty capsules from the health food store, which I will fill with powdered sugar. Hey, I don’t even have to invest in powdered sugar. I could just fill the capsule with tap water and claim a homeopathy cure. Yea, that’s the ticket! If someone mentions Avogadro’s number it will just fall on deaf ears. My customers will just fold their arms in defiance and point out my sciency sounding paragraphs as concrete proof that my bogus remedy cures every disease known to man. Of course they don’t know that I poached those paragraphs from an intro to physiology book and interlaced them with a few poorly written paragraphs on my miracle cure. Hell, I’m too lazy to write paragraphs. I’ll just doctor up some of the sentences and change the wording to make it look like it’s all about my miracle cure. My highly gullible customers won’t have enough of a science background to figure it out. That quack Brownstein does it all the time and gets away with it.
I’ll make up some claims that my super duper capsules might cure cancer, Parkinson’s, dementia, shingles, HIV, lock jaw, malaria, depression, and whatever else ails ya.
I’ll have to put in a quack miranda warning, of course:
Damn the FDA. Damn them. They are evil through and through. Satan is alive and well and here on earth people. He has manifested himself as the FDA.
Of course ORAC will take me down in his blog and quackwatch.org will try to deconstruct my medical breakthrough and say it’s pseudoscience. I’m not worried. By the time they get wind of what I am doing I will have a big altie following and will have made lots of money. I’ll just tell my altie fans that they are really BIG PHARMA in disguise and they are the quacks. That’s all I have to do is mention big pharma trying to keep a good altie down and it’s back to business.
It’s such a shame that I have ethics. I could be such a good quack
They didn’t get it.
I’m not shocked by someone who is very sick but insists to others that they’re actually doing very well on this or that altie treatment; it’s sad, but people have an incredible capacity to delude themselves. If they say “The Schmuck protocol is healing me wonderfully! What’s that? Oh, my intense projectile vomiting that follows each Schmuck supplement? That’s just herxing; I’m actually expelling the toxins that way!” I think they’re grossly deluded but I believe that they really believe it.
But from what you said, it sounded like these patients claim to other patients “I’m in great health! I don’t have any of those horrible symptoms that chemo would give me, like fatigue and vomiting!” and then have private blogs where they say “Oh my God, my fatigue and vomiting is getting worse, but I can’t tell that to anyone outside this private blog, because then they might think the Schmuck treatment isn’t working or is as bad side-effect-wise as chemo.” That intentional deception is what shocks me. Self-deception is an unfortunate fact of the human psyche, but that level of intentional deception is something else again.
That was thoughtful.
“But at the individual level, most of them are innocent, unless you count believing in weird stuff as a crime.”
I think there’s a mushy border. Believers become exponents, raising the propagation of woo to a (fractionally) higher power.
btw, how does one get updates on this blog? I didn’t see that there was a response to my comment until I re-opened the thread and searched within the page.
Your diagnosis and treatments are certainly not the easiest burden for you to bear; you remind me a bit of a guy who was diagnosed HIV+, accepted SB treatment and became a great ( and hilarious) critic of HIV/AIDS denialists: he also has a background in medicine/ biology.
About *le grand idiot*- I saw the creature live, giving a lecture. He is profoundly un-attractive- in both appearance and manner. I wanted to question his credentials : he trotted right over to yours truly and asked if I had a question, I shot back, “Not about HEALTH!” and he trotted away. I did not persist because he was surrounded by scads of groupies- more than 100 strong- ready, willing and able to defend their master. Why these people think he is ‘hot’ is a total mystery to me. Looks aren’t the most important thing BUT when you claim to have found the fountain of youth and sell admission tickets to it, they are a variable to be considered. Especially when you maintain that you are able to reverse the greying of hair and sport an obviously bad dye job.
At any rate, take care, hang with us, we [email protected] rock.
“That intentional deception is what shocks me. Self-deception is an unfortunate fact of the human psyche, but that level of intentional deception is something else again.”
BINGO. And *THAT* describes in a nutshell my biggest problem with breastcancer.org. That deception is not only allowed, but encouraged.
I went to Trina’s blog. She has not posted in a month/.Her choice of ITP is lauded as heroic at bco with nary a mention that she goes to a real clinic for Zometa and Herceptin, The rhetoric over there gets old and blackcat and thenewme should be the ones laudes for their work to try and show that the Emperor has no clothes. The powers that be at breastcancer.org seem to just want to generate traffic. The site is run by two MDs who should know better
Protocel. is only one of the quack remedies that are pushed.
Speaking of bogus cancer clinics, did you know there’s a trade show every Labour Day where all the quacks in Tijuana come to a hotel in L.A. looking for new business? There is even a non-profit organization called Cancer Control Society that runs bus tours to Tijuana so cancer patients and their families can get the sales pitch directly? It includes Gerson, Hoxsey, places that use laetrile, sound and light therapy, etc.
I found about this film on the Quackometer site. Yes, it’s from Al Jazeera TV but it’s well done. A British journalist went undercover and checked out a couple of these clinics in Mexico. It’s an easy 25 minutes to watch and is especially interesting seen from the point of view of the people going on these trips looking for miracles. Also to hear from a real Mexican oncologist who seems embarassed by his country’s reputation for quackery. He calls it predatory.
Read the text version too, as it includes additional information not in the film. These cancer clinics are licensed as hospices intended to care for people in their last days, not to administer any treatments. Most places will not give you anything in writing, just a lot of promises and smiles when you fork over your $23000 cash, in advance.
And one of these hospitals (where Martin Luther King’s wife died) is run by a guy named Kurt Donsbach who has been pretending to be a doctor and selling tainted and useless supplements for 50 years. Quite a story.
I must have hit a nerve with Wayan who has the black salve site because he posted a response to me:
This is from Maud at BCO:
have taken a much needed break from this site but see that nothing improves nor changes. The skeptics who haunt BCO are very active on multiple threads and actually giving this site an extremely bad reputation, i.e. Chili’s own caretakers wrote a response to the skeptics’ comments
Response to breastcancer.org and YouTube viewers, from website author
Word spreads like wildfire on the net – I would think that BCO would be highly concerned with its reputation and therefore prohibit members of certain organizations from posting on this site.
Her link does not seem to be working. Here is Wayans miracle cure:
I have emailed wayan and given him this link and asked him to respond.
Vivre, from BCO, has just declared that she knows a doctor that has just cured her breast cancer with black salve and has posted it on her web site.
Never mind that Vivre is an MLMer and is a health freedom fighter.
Jun 20, 2012 10:37 AM vivre wrote:
I have a wonderful doctor blogging for me, who survived BC without chemo, rads or surgery. Check her out on my website.
OK, Wayan, you have obviously have heard about my posts on BCO not believing that you have the cancer cure in black salve.
You posted a reply that I call Mrs. L ‘s husband who could speak english. The problem with this is that anybody could pretend to be Mrs. L’s husband.
Wayan, I would love to talk about your black salve pictues.
Let’s look at the first one. What did you do to get those bruises on her breast…smack her around some?
that second one is not stage 4 breast cancer..
Chillipadi= Carol Chua
Vivre (BCO) = Linda Memmesheimer
“Think Beyond The Pink”
also was “FEB” and “LindaMem” on BCO
LauraGTO = Laura
Username “chestnut” on preventcanswers.org
One of the regulars on http://www.breastcanswers.org (an unbelievably hateful pro Republican, anti-Obama/anti-Democrat site)
Good friend of Linda Memmesheimer/Vivre – helped to create preventcanswers (?)
“Freedom From Fascism” conspiracy site (http://student.ccbcmd.edu/~cclar568/freedomNow.html”
These are just a few people on the altie boards of BCO with an agenda. There are more.
I am reading Chili’s blog which someone sent me today. She has not edited it and this part just really stands out to me:
Instead of conventional treatments for cancer, I chose to make radical changes to my life (as above) and I also embarked on metabolic therapy to keep cancer at bay (more on this at my blog healingpastures.com). The metabolic protocol I followed utilised some potent Neways health supplements, amongst other things, to defeat the disease. Many other cancer fighters have done this program.
My tumor marker tests show that I’m in good health. All my organs are clear and my oncologist even says that I’m healthier that most people – including himself! My doctor can’t understand why I’m in such good shape, as I’m not depending on the vast knowledge of the medical profession, billions of dollars of technology, and a never-ending line of “promising” drugs. All the same elements which have failed to prevent cancer and save growing legions of victims.
Do your own research and come to your own conclusions. You’ve only got one body, and it’s under attack from Day 1. We are the product of our choices so, please, choose wisely.
Right after my husband and I did our own research, we started looking
Instead of conventional treatments for cancer, I chose to make radical changes to my life (as above) and I also embarked on metabolic therapy to keep cancer at bay (more on this at my blog healingpastures.com). The metabolic protocol I followed utilised some potent Neways health supplements, amongst other things, to defeat the disease. Many other cancer fighters have done this program.
My tumor marker tests show that I’m in good health. All my organs are clear and my oncologist even says that I’m healthier that most people – including himself! My doctor can’t understand why I’m in such good shape, as I’m not depending on the vast knowledge of the medical profession, billions of dollars of technology, and a never-ending line of “promising” drugs. All the same elements which have failed to prevent cancer and save growing legions of victims.
Do your own research and come to your own conclusions. You’ve only got one body, and it’s under attack from Day 1. We are the product of our choices so, please, choose wisely.
Right after my husband and I did our own research, we started looking
As a regular poster at Breastcancer.org, I think I know the answer but have you presented the moderators with these facts?
The person I got this information from has presented it to the mods many times. She has saved all emails and replys. The brain dead mods tell her that these people are just expressing their opinions and that is OK.
Vivre and her ilk frequently PM new members who are newly diagnosed and that are early stage. They try to scare them off chemo and rads for their agenda which is selling them supplements and involving them in their political causes. ie. health freedom fighters
The majority of these women including Vivre have had treatment and claimed that they should have cured themselves naturally, if only they had known. They are on a mission to save others from “toxic treatments”
There ae others like Lucy88 that probably never had breast cancer. She’s involved with bcaction.org and maybe some other weird orgs that we can’t prove yet. She’s pretty quiet on the boards about her cause but she’s constantly fear mongering and asking others to pm her for more information.
I don’t know if she’s an MLMer but it would not surprise me if she is.
Lucy88 lists no cancer stats but claims she’s a librarian. She has been spreading psuedoscience for years by claiming that she meets regualrly with a group of PHD’s who are breast cancer researchers and that is where she’s getting her top secret information that chemo and rads kill. The alties buy this hook, line and sinker.and treat her like some kind of guru as they do Vivre.
Lucy’s av of an older woman on a surfboard cracks me up. She surfs in to spread her psuedoscience and always anounces that she has to go because “surfs up”
Only surfer posers and wannabes say “surfs up” My mother says the term is from the old Gidget hollywood movies.
I picture Lucy as some old crone working in a public library somewhere in the midwest.
I noticed that she has not brought up her PHD cancer researcher friends ever since I made the statement that her imaginary iodine guzzling PHD strudy group would fail a high school biology quiz.
This is my latest email from the mods:
If you can’t post respectful posts, perhaps you could just ignore the Alt threads?
Please understand that this is truly not acceptable.
They are more concerned with the traffic and numerous alties have threatened to leave the threads. Kind of like, “it’s her or us.” I have also been accused of stalking and being disrespectful to Vivre and Lucy88.
On BCO everybody has a right to that opinion and you are not permitted to challange the validity of that opinion esp. if it promotes dangerous misinformation.
My ban is lifted. You can PM me if you wish.
I will PM you. Some newbie with HER2+ cancer is being told to try MMS and DMSO by zuvart. My mommy told me not to mess with chemicals I didn’t know anything about.
On that note, an oldie:
Little Willie was a chemist
Little Willie is no more
For what he thought was H2O was H2SO4.
Weird nursery rhymes when I was growing up, eh?
I tried to respond to your pm on BCO but got a message that I am now banned from sending pms. I don’t know why because I rarely send pms and the ones that I send are usually responses back to those that pm me. You can pm thenewme on that site for my email address.
Zuvart has spun herself right off of this planet. I don’t know if she has an agenda or if she’s just stupid.
I HAVE A LIST OF PEOPLE CLAIMING THEY HAVE BEEN CURED BY PROTOCEL,AND I AM ABOUT TO BUY SOME FOR MY WIFE WHO HAS TERMINAL LUNG CANCER,WHAT SHOULD I DO ? TRY IT OR NOT
I LOOK FORWARD TO YOUR REPLY
Protocal is a scam. Read Orac’s blog above. Cantron, CanCell and Entelev are other names for Protocal.
Protocel is NOT a scam. It works. The National Cancer Institute tested Cancell in 1990-91 and their test results showed that Cancell did great against all cancers tested, in some cases resulting in 100% cancer cell death. Of course, they don’t say that on their website, where they lie about the results, but the graphs and charts tell the truth—Cancell worked, not only stopping the growth of cancers but killing cancer cells as well. I have much information in my Facebook album which you can see at:
I wish you the best.
Mr. Luce has obviously not bothered to read my post very carefully, as I addressed that issue by pointing out that the effects observed in vitro were only observed at concentrations way higher than what could be reasonably expected to achieved in the blood:
Only someone who knows nothing about cancer research would claim that Cantron/Protocell or whatever you want to call it works.
Your response amazes me. You surely saw the test results with the graphs and chart. You saw the near 100% death of cancer cells in many of the tests and you explain it away. If there had been NO such good results, you would have said the test results prove it doesn’t work. So, now, the good results mean nothing. Damned if you do, and damned if you don’t.
The quote from the NCI is full of weasel words and baseless assumptions—“There is little evidence…” What evidence do they have to the contrary? The “in vitro effects are likely due to…” trying to explain them away, yet without any proof of that baseless assumption. “do not truly mimic the in vivo situation” So what? Why do in vitro at all in the first place? The “results obtained [must be good ones to have to explain them away]…may not accurately reflect possible effects in humans.” They say that and wouldn’t care if the results were poor. So, why didn’t they pursue it with human clinical trials, to see if the good results “accurately reflect possible effects in humans”? Maybe I know nothing about cancer research, as you say, but I can read graphs and charts and see good results when they’re there. And so did Dr. Narayanan, who thought that Cancell had to be toxic to get results that good.
Your problem is that you are so full of pride that you would never concede something like Cancell or Protocel worked even if it saved your own mother from a painful death from conventional chemo and radiation. Have you ever in your life said the words, “I’m wrong”? Do you even think it’s possible?
@John J Luce
No maybe about it. Vodka will kill 100% of cancer cells in a petri dish. With regard to graphs and charts, they are very easy to make up to fool the gullible.
Well, by God, I hope so! Anyone who says “There are NO good results, therefore it obviously DOES work” would be a fool.
Where you go wrong is in believing that “SOME good results” means “obviously does work EVEN under the difficult conditions which is where we NEED it to work.”
Think of it like car racing. If Bobby Thunderfoot wants to drive the PowerMax Spark Plugs car in the Coogan Bluffs 500, he’s got to do a time trial first. That time trial is conducted under conditions much more favorable to him than the actual race: He only has to do ten laps, not the full 500, and he’s the only car on the track.
Now, his performance in the time trial may be good enough that they say “He can go in the actual race, and then we’ll see if he’s still good when he has all the other cars to deal with and when he’s driving for fifty times as long.” OR IT MAY NOT. Bobby Thunderfoot’s time in the trials may sound impressive when there’s no basis given for comparison, but if there’s only room for forty cars in the race and Bobby’s time ISN’T within the forty fastest, he’s not getting in. And all of Bobby’s fans who growl “Why, those cheating race officials! If he hadn’t finished the time trials, they’d have kept him out of the race, but look, he did finish the time trials and they STILL kept him out!” are just showing they don’t understand what they’re arguing about. There’s no cheating going on, just elimination of those who didn’t make the cut.
[…] at least try to appear to). Recently, I noted that a particularly nasty form of cancer quackery, Cantron, is making the rounds. Then, of course, Stanislaw Burzynski’s “antineoplastons” […]
“With regard to graphs and charts, they are very easy to make up to fool the gullible.”
Good grief, M.A.— WHO “made up” the graphs and charts here? James Sheridan? It was the NCI who made them. The only “gullible” ones here are the ones who believe the NCI’s attempts to explain away the good test results. I find it interesting that Dr. Narayanan didn’t come up with any of that. All he said was that Cancell had to be toxic to get results as good as that. He didn’t say…way too high concentration … or, did not truly mimic in vivo situation… or, nonspecific effects of changes in salt concentration (whatever that means) … or, any of the other B.S. the NCI came up with. If it were a new chemo drug and not Cancell you would all be dancing around the room when you saw those results. But your religious-like beliefs AGAINST Cancell do not allow you to do that, so you accuse anyone who wants to celebrate Cancell’s good test results as “gullible.” The next thing you will be saying is that the NCI must have slipped vodka into the petri dishes to make Cancell look so good so it could fool gullible people like me into believing Cancell did so well, but then, of course, explain away those good results without disclosing the vodka. Give me a break!
@ Antaeus Feldspar
“Where you go wrong is in believing that “SOME good results” means “obviously does work EVEN under the difficult conditions which is where we NEED it to work.”
So, you finally admit there WERE “SOME good results.” We may be making progress here. And, yes, “where we NEED it to work” is not just in a petri dish but in human trials…which never happened, probably because the NCI refused to do any further studies. But, admit it, at the initial in vitro testing phase Cancell should NOT have been eliminated as a treatment that “didn’t make the cut.”
@ Militant Agnostic:
Therefore, vodka for everyone!
A young woman used to live next door to me and she concocted killer vodka drinks- especially Cosmopolitans- so altho’ I am partial to gin,** I occasionally partake.
** an ancestor of mine made lovely gin and sold his formulae long ago.
Another thing that should be remembered is that Cancell is non-toxic. At higher concentrations it actually is LESS effective, so when it was killing 90 to 100% of the cancer cells it was at its second from lowest concentrations. When you factor that into a comparison with conventional toxic chemos that can damage the liver, kidney, and heart, Cancell would be a leg-up on all the other drugs making it into human trials. So, studies of Cancell should definitely have proceeded to the next level.
So, Cancell never made it into human trials, except the thousands of humans who tried it on their own and astonished their oncologists with amazing results, including being declared cancer-free, not for just 5 years but for decades. Elonna McKibben had a malignant tumor on her spinal cord while pregnant with quintuplets. After giving birth, she was diagnosed and told she would not live to see her babies’ first birthday. Two years on Cancell resulted in her being cured of her cancer. Her children are in their twenties today and Elonna is still alive and cancer-free. She took NO conventional chemo or radiation, which she was told would have left her a paraplegic until she died. Instead she tried Cancell, nothing but Cancell, and she is cured.
Now, that sort of story should excite you if you really care about helping people with cancer. But if you doggedly and stubbornly hold to your cut/poison/burn paradigm and make fun of successful treatments like Cancell/Protocel, you will never help anyone. Swallow your pride and take an honest look at the results, and BELIEVE the good test results are no accident. The stuff REALLY WORKS!!!
Only the first part is the quote, this is not:
It does not take “belief”, but data. If you think it works, then provided the verifiable evidence. Just post the title, journal and dates of the PubMed indexed papers that show the “stuff really works” in Phase 2 or 3 clinical trials.
In addition, ask yourself why there have been no human trials.
@Mr Luce: How about :Citation needed. Are you willing to post Ms McKibben’s complete medical records? Do you even HAVE them? Can you prove her story?
We are skeptics, and you are not helping your cause by either mis-reading or mis-interpreting what others say.
Are you aware that Orac IS a breast cancer surgeon, one who does actual research (and publishes his research for review and others to test to see if he’s right or wrong – the true meaning of research)? Are you aware that he HAS had family members die of breast cancer and that he would have given all he had to save them?
Are you aware of what others are saying? That to achieve serum levels that would work like the in vitro testing, the drug would have to be at toxic levels? Remember that in vitro just means something works in a petri dish. Tap water will kill some cancer cells in a petri dish, for heaven’s sake! The PROOF of something working is human testing.
Please read what Orac says (and he even addressed the comment to you – did you even READ it???): There is little evidence that any of the constituents of Cancell/Cantron/Protocel would be available in the bloodstream of a patient in significant concentrations after its ingestion. Activity was seen in two-thirds of the cell lines, though at levels that would be roughly 275 times higher than the theoretical maximum concentration achievable in serum. Therefore, the in vitro effects are likely due to nonspecific effects of changes in salt concentration. Furthermore, cells in the NCI Tumor Cell Line Screen are grown in artificial media under conditions that do not truly mimic the in vivo situation in animals or humans, and that results obtained with the screen may not accurately reflect possible effects in humans. To place the findings for Cancell/Cantron/Protocel in perspective any conventional drug exhibiting this low level of in vitro activity in the NCI human cancer cell line screen would normally not be investigated further by NCI.
Graphs and charts are lovely. Orac has often done a wonderful job interpreting them for the layman. But you have to remember the difference between “in vitro” and “in vivo”….
Mr. Luce, often you will see folks trying to sell “laetrile” as a cancer drug. Yes, it killed cells in a petri dish (in vitro), and they did try it on humans (in vivo). They had to stop because the main active ingredient is cyanide, and the patients were getting poisoned.
Yet, people still try to sell it as a cancer drug, often calling it “Vitamin B-17.” There are case reports in PubMed on cyanide poisoning from people trying it, and the apricot pits that is often sold as a “natural cancer cure” (they are full of cyanide, they are “bitter almonds”, regular edible almonds actually come from non-toxic apricot varieties).
Mr. Luce, go to you closest public library and check out the book The Emperor of All Madadies, it is about the history of cancer treatments.
Check out Elonna’s deluded, unintentionally hilarious website here:
It’s full of religious garbage and thanking the lord for miracles, biblical quotes ,etc. etc.
So was it the magical syrup she took or her lord saving her? If prayer is enough why does anyone have to spend $500 every 20 days for this crap that someone cooks up in his basement on a hotplate?
Mr. Luce, you must be a shill for Protocell. How much do you get paid for promoting this dangerous, useless garbage?
Why is the Christian aspect so vital to this stuff, as well as MMS? Elonna’s website says that Sheridan was a Christian and that Protocell was provided by god as part of a “program”. He dreamed about a rainbow and saw the healing potential in the colours, or some nonsense like that. all due to a gift from above, of course.
This Protocell testimonial is from a faith healing website. Note this man had both surgery and chemo before trying the Protocell, but it was god who healed him.
(Of course they also sell Protocell…)
Does that mean Protocell doesn’t work on Jews, Muslims or atheists, etc? Why do I have to believe in a sky fairy for a medicine to work? And if your god wanted to cure you from cancer, why did he give you cancer in the first place?
Sorry to rant, but the quackery combined with the religious mumbo-jumbo makes me angry.
@ Marc Stephens Is Insane:
If you look into woo, you’ll discover that deep within its swampish muck, there is the germ of spirit- in fact, I have my own law stating this.
Because they cannot base their claims in material reality, investigated by standard research that produces data, they have to go elsewhere, so there’ll be talk of energy, spirit, soul, chakras, essence, a higher reality and suchlike. A few days ago, MIke Adams linked the Higgs, Consciousness and the Deity all in one fell swoop.
Here is a “Protocell-cures-breast-cancer” alternative healing site that will infuriate the breast cancer quackery watchers like Black-cat, thenewme, rose, and of course our host Orac.
I linked to one page but check out the rest of the pages.
It looks like all these Protocell sites are linked to each other. There seems to be five or six perosnal testimonial sites out there, all printing the exact same lies and misinformation. Like Jim Sheridan was a “coal minor”. Maybe when he grew up he became a coal major.
The energy and spirit stuff I understand, but people of all faiths can relate to that. Some of the worst (i.e. most extreme) new-agers I know are Jewish. But I’m talking specifically about Christianity and belief in Jesus. That’s a recurring theme on all the Protocell sites, and they all emphasize that Jim Sheridan was a Christian. So what? Who cares? If the stuff works, his god should be irrelevant. And that he dreamt it up, literally, up in a dream after god showed him a rainbow, well, sheesh.
Jim Humble, Mr. MMS, also claims that god gave him the formula to MMS. His fake church just makes that veneer a little thicker, the same scam L. Ron Hubbard pulled when he started called Scientology a religion.
So it seems a non-believer, or a Jew, or Muslim, would automatically be out of the running to be helped by Protocell. Pretty silly of their marketing departments to limit their clientele to one particular religious group.
I was able to confirm that a McKibben set of quintuplets does exist. The birthdate is off by one month between the source I found and the McKibben website, but I believe the list of worldwide quint births contains a misprint, as I found a newspaper article that is dated two days after the date she indicated on her website.. (The newspaper story has little more information than that, citing the father’s request for privacy.) Quintuplets are big enough news that that part is usually easy to check. The rest, of course, we have to take her word for.
@ Marc Stephens Is Insane:
Right. However, I think that by positioning himself within a ceratin sector of the Christian community, he’ll get plenty of clients because of this specialisation- just like car or clothing manufacturers aim their products at certain types of clients- sporty, lush or business-oriented.
I guess so…but here’s a scenario: I’m a non-Christian woman who is prone to woo. I’m researching “alternative” breast cancer cures and find all the Protocell sites I linked to above. As a non-Christian I’d be so turned off at all the bibilical and Jesus references I’d run as fast and far away as I could (and probably end up on some baking soda site…) They seem to alientating a certain segment of their market, but as you said, it could also work in thier favour. A Christian woo-seeker who is shopping for quackery might be “wooed” by the Jesus stuff and choose to waste her money on Protocell instead of Burzynski, for example.
It reminds me of a guy I knew years ago who wanted help for his drinking but refused to go to AA because of their insistence on believe in god. I think that’s a tenet of all 12-step programs. He was a devout non-believer and it turned him off AA. He did get better eventuallym by the way, and is fine today. And still a non-believer.
Ignore all the typos and missing words. I see them and know how to spell “their”. It’s such a pain to proofread and correct without the old “preview” function.
Exactly. in the US, Christians are a very definite majority; even if most of them aren’t fundies, the ones who’d be interested in Protocell are more likely to be (since they’re also the ones likely to be interested in faith healing). So what if they’re turning off non-Christians and moderate Christians? Faith healers make *billions* off of gullible fundamentalists; this is just latching on to that. In short, they’re turning off a section of the market that they’re not that interested in anyway.
@Marc – you’re right! It’s infuriating!! I do think the protocel shills are all linked. The one on BCO refers to Outsmart Your Cancer, outsmartyourcancer.com , written by a real piece of work by the name of Tanya Harter Pierce, who says:
“Regarding Protocel. Even though I devote more written space and testimonies to the Protocel approach than any other, that does NOT mean I believe it is necessarily the best choice for every case. Many remarkable recoveries in my book are from people using Cesium High pH Therapy, The Flaxseed Oil and Cottage Cheese Approach, Burzynski’s Antineoplastons, Dr. Kelley’s Enzyme Therapy, or other powerful alternative treatments.
There are MANY ways to cure cancer through non-toxic methods, and no single approach is better than all the others for every case.
I merely devote more space to Protocel because my book happens to be the leading book in print about it, and an important part of my mission is to help inform the public of this relatively unknown yet powerful approach!”
Gee, silly me! I suffered the whole conventional slash/burn/poison routine, when I could have just used this miracle cure?? Gah.
Here’s another religious/woo Protocel site, called The Creator’s Cure. I haven’t Googled this Bill Henderson guy yet. At first I thought it was a cannabis site, but the green leaves are only there to invoke the “naturalness” of the place.
In this case Protocel was used to treat lung cancer. Of course the patient underwent dozens of medical interventions as well. God was along for the ride, of course.
Here are some choice nuggets:
Here. check out all the fun for yourself:
They all have books to sell. And they all link to Protocel suppliers. Shills! Follow the money! (See what I did there?)
thenewme (and any others interested in BC woo):
I’d love your opinion of this breast cancer patient’s testimonial for Protocel. Again, she underwent surgery. Am i missing something?
Red flag #1 – her docs told her they got “99.9% of the cancer out.” As far as I know, that’s not the way it’s done! For me and for every breast cancer surgery I’ve heard of, they talk about margins – whether they’re clear or not (and by how many millimeters). If a margin is positive or “dirty,” I don’t think they’d know whether it’s .1% of the total amount! Of course Orac can correct me if I’m mistaken.
Red flags #2 (and #3, ad nauseam)…
Unless blatantly negligent and ripe for malpractice, docs don’t “assure” someone that their cancer will return after lumpectomy and lymph node removal. They don’t “assure” you that a swollen node is breast cancer just by feel. They don’t remove “all” your lymph nodes even if one or more are diagnostically proven to be malignant. Breast cancer tumor measurements from imaging studies prior to surgery are notoriously inaccurate, so her claims about her tumor size are nonsense. Ugh. Websites like this make me sick. It’s a good thing I’m not an FDA shill. I’d probably get fired for my harsh treatment of cancer quacks. I’d throw ’em all in jail and have them practice their treatments on each other.
Bill Henderson is another quackster mentioned frequently on BCO, where people are raving about his great “regime:” http://www.beating-cancer-gently.com/
@ Marc Stephens Is Insane:
Christian woo-slingers ( like those you cite above) cast their nets to a narrower audience- altho’ it might be the majority in their own society ; some of those I survey speak of a more generalised spirituality or soul-endowedness, unlike the narrow-casters, they do not discriminate on the basis of religion, ethnicity or national origin- everyone’s money is alright.
They even attempt to draw in people who aren’t very religious but ascribe to a New Age-y mentality that could encompasse ideas like environmentalism, world citizenship, Gaia-ness, Ancient Culture-itis, Eastern Mysteries and other curiosities. So whether you think the New Age will be birthed in Glastonbury**, Malibu or Tibet they have something for you.
For a sample, read Mike Adams’ writing on Wedenesday @ Natural News about Consciousness, the Higgs and g-d.
** what I’ve heard recently, believe it or not!
Why not? I’ve seen absolutely no evidence that Cancell outperformed any other treatment which did make “the cut”; certainly you have not provided any such evidence.
Where did Mr. John J. Luce go?
@Marc Stephens Is Insane:
I agree with thenewme. As far as the breast cancer testamonial, there is not enough information. Also, women with slow growing indolent tumors can look and feel healthy for years before their downfall. Just ask Kim Tinkhum. Oh wait, she’s dead. My bad.
Re:Well… it looks like one of the BCO stalkers has been here looking for information about who we are and how some of us are doing.
This person, who harrassed “altie” ladies at BCO until she was asked to leave that board, has found refuge at last in the comments section of Orac’s blog, where she posts everything she has been able to find out about the lives and personal identities of people she doesn’t like. Check out the second half of the comments on this page; she starts ranting around June 19, 4:44 pm. She starts naming names on June 20, 6:24 pm, ostensibly because she “cares” so much. For shame! The page is https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2012/06/19/cantron-not-curing-cancer-since-the-1930s/.
Here, in the comments of this page, on December 13, 2011, 10:40 pm, she tries to recruit help to invade the alt board at BCO and “save lives”. https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2011/12/13/nccam-in-the-news/ ; and December 23, 2011, 4:57 am in https://www.respectfulinsolence.com/2011/12/21/steven-best-and-negotiation-is-over-clos/
Isn’t she quite the little bully? (BC if you are reading – shame on you!)
Seriously, you are that stupid? I am not the enemy you dumb sh*t. Impositive is now stage 4 and still thinks cancer is a fungas and so do you. You are encouraging her on to a very painful death. Read Orac’s blog’s and quackwatch on Robert O Young.
Cancer is not a fungas. That FNP giving her an intervenous anti fungal should be arrested. All of those quacks at the Camelot Cancer should go to jail.
Lodi treating wornoutmom at Oasis of hope should be in jail or rehab.
I think those of you like Joylieswithin(aka sheila) are almost as guilty as the quacks. You see women dying but cover it up and continue your crusade to prove alite medicine cures cancer.
Oh, by the way, if I did not make myself clear, Vivre is a real scumbag. I suspect 11 other identities on BCO.
Vivre sees the money that quacks make and clearly wants a piece of that pie for herself. She not anly invades the altie forums, she branches out to the newlly diagnosed women with breast cancer and warns them on the harms of chemo. Never mind that she is selling suppiments and directing sick and vulneralbe women to her website.
Here are some deep thoughts from Vivre taken from BCO:
and I credit reading with getting me on the road to great health. Anti Cancer was one of my favorites too.
A book I loved that was like a bible to me during treatments was “The Wisdom of Menopause” by Dr. Northrup. When she talked about women needing to listen to that inner voice, and it would help us to make the right decision, it really hit home. I realized my inner voice was telling me to say no to drugs, which is why I was having such a visceral reaction to the idea of taking arimidex, my onc’s drug of choice for me. Dr. Northrup even talked about these drugs and said they aren’t right for everyone, and we needed to each decide what felt right for us. When I read that, it was the first step to getting my power back and I got the strength to start to question my doctors.
That book created a monster! I will never look at doctors again the same way. The book is not about cancer, it is about becoming the woman we are meant to be. That is why I loved it so much. Who wants to think of cancer all the time?
Q-What do they call the person who graduates last in his class from med school?
Joined: Nov 2008Posts: 2,163
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Jun 22, 2012 08:57 PM vivre wrote:
I just saw this conversation, and have not really read through it but I thought I would add what little I know about the baking soda cure.
It sure seems impossible doesn’t it? Something as cheap as baking soda curing cancer? Imagine how many cancer centers would lose their livilihood if this was true.
Is it true? I have no idea, but I sure would explore the possibility if I still had cancer.
I first heard about this protocol a couple of years ago when I heard Dr. John Apsley speak about how he was trying to find a way to get the baking soda directly to the cancer cellsm bypassing the digestive system. I am not sure if he succeeded, but I saw him again last weekend at the Health Freedom Expo and after having heard his lectures and spoken with him a couple of times, I do believe he is no charlatan. He is a man who really wants to find a cure. He is a brilliant doctor, and way above my level when he lectures, but I find him fascinating. I also believe he has integrity. He is not getting rich off of people. His compassion comes from his own health crisis. He himself was on his way to the Olympics as a swimmer in the 70’s when his adrenals shut down (all that chlorine in the pool?). He had to give up swimming but went on to med school and spent decades going around the world, studying indigenous tribes with longevity and learning about things like water purity and native diets.
take it for what it is worth, he is a man of integrity and he has spoken out about the baking soda cure. Here are some links:
Here are some little tidbits I learned at the Health Freedom Expo last weekend:
Take digestive enzymes probiotics and and vitamins with food, but before the meal. Take herbals between meals.
Love this comment from Dr. Caldwell, author of a great book called the Answer to Cancer:
“What is really alternative? Why is doing what the body wants naturally considered the alternative”
he also said “All cancers are curable, but not all people are”. So true!
I got to meet Marilu Henner. I did not know that her husband was dx’d with colon cancer, with a poor prognosis, 2 months after they were married. She nursed him back to health with nutrition.
It was so inspiring to be around so many people fighting for health freedom. We must not stop demanding free choice! It was interesting that there were a lot of liberals and conservatives, and they all seem to agree that obamacare must go because it will limit choices even more. If the govt. is paying the bills, they will get to dictate, and since the FDA is already just an arm of Big Pharma, it will spell the end of so much of what we can still do here. It is almost impossible to get iodine in EU now and not easy to find here. We must keep fighting the bills that Durbin and Waxman keep pushing to put more regulations on supplements. Even though I only use pharma grade supplements (most are food grade), if they all are required to follow more regulations, they will cost a fortune. That is why big pharma continues to lobby for more regulation. Their business is down and they want it back.
The top three most essential minerals, iodine, magnesium and selenium.
Black-cat, you may want to learn to use “blockquote” markup to make it more clear what is your own text and what is being quoted from someone else.
It’s not hard, though I wish I had a preview to tell me if my explanation will render correctly. At the beginning of the section you’re quoting, put an “opening tag” consisting of the following symbols (all together, not separated by quote marks and plus signs):
and when you want to end the quotation, use a “closing tag”:
Ah, nerts. Ok, the directions here should give you the same info: http://www.w3schools.com/tags/tag_blockquote.asp
Antaeus – I tried to use regular html tags here (and thought they looked right; could have been wrong) and gave up because I wasn’t sure it was “regular HTML tags” or some other kind of tagging.
So (trying this as I type – if it shows up wrong, we can figure out if I am misremembering the syntax) [b]is bold[/b] and [i]is italics[/i] if I am doing this right, so I don’t have to use caps for emphasis and look like I have absolutely no clue…
Nope. Will have to go research. How much I miss preview!
Well that is just silly… how in the world did I end up doing that?
Not spending enough time on the photography forums anymore I guess…
Maybe need to use the pointy brackets instead of square ones.
Mrs. Woo – the square bracket codes are a system called “BBCode” that’s used on some bulletin board systems. Many of them translate directly into HTML if you replace each “[” with a “less than” sign and each “]” with a “greater than” sign.
Thanks for the heads up. I just reread my comments and it is hard to see where I am quoting and at what point I am commenting.
I wish we had a comment preview here, too. I’ll edit my comments for now on to make them more clear.
Jun 28, 2012 05:19 PM KatRNagain92 wrote:
“Well ladies….It’s WORKING! (Protocel)
My PET scan results today showed SIGNIFICANT response to alternative therapy.
Here’s just a little rundown:
Left upper nodule described previously as metabolically active and can no longer be identified by PET and on the CT dataset is less prominent. The left hilar lymph node has decreased metabolic activity with an SUV max of 1.5. No new lung lesions are identified. A dermal lesion present in the posterior left shoulder is no longer metabolically active and on the CT has almost completely disappeared. Additional dermal lesion at the medial aspect of the reconstructed right breast has almost completely disappeared by CT and is no longer metabolically active. A right posterior chest wall lesion also is improved as is a right lateral chest wall lesion.
Abdomen: The subcutaneous nodule noted in the midline has resolved completely by PET and by CT. No metabolically active lesions are noted in the abdomen.
Pelvis: No metabolically active lesions suspicious for tumor. The subcutaneous metastasis in the right buttock has regressed significantly. There remains metabolic activity present with the CT lesion. SUV formerly 17.8 now measures 1.1
Skeleton: No new metastatic lesions are identified.
Praise God…this is so much better than I could have ever hoped for. Now, to go on my family reunion and start living! I leave in the morning and will be back next week! I feel like I have won the lottery!
Thank you Jesus for helping me choose this path!”
To read more about Kat’s entire Protocel journey, visit breast cancer org, forums, alternative medicine and go to the thread, “Protocel 23”
Would love to here your thoughts Orac. This women has stage 4 breast cancer and chemo failed her!
Thank you Antaeus – so it was all of the time I did spend on the photography forums that confused me. Now I don’t feel like quite as big of an luddite! 🙂
Now it makes sense. I was asked to email some person at BCO of whom I had never heard. She identified herself as my RI friend. It made no sense and my reply to her asked her how many identities she had, Give her my email addy? I bet she thinks I help out Nigeriand princes.
I can’t make it through those Protecel sites. They start taking it before diagnosis. Why? If it does really heal cancer why would you nip it in the bud so to speak , then you can not prove it works if there is no cancer to cure. Oh and the one where the woman died, seriously? She’s DEAD, not a stunning endorsement.
You have a vivid imagination! LOL
@Leah – there isn’t much there for anyone to really give “good” thoughts to. Anything that would be said on the tiny little anecdote you provide would be speculation at best. That is one of the reasons that anecdotes are not considered evidence.
Also, since it really doesn’t have anything against your recommendation in it, why didn’t you make it easy for him and post the actual thread link?
(I know this will go into moderation, but hey, at least then all the information is shared)
Leah, I’ll ask you the same question we have been asked before, in a context where it is far more reasonable: do you have any evidence that Rose is wrong??
Rose (Rosemary), thenewme and Blackcat are all outcasts at BCO and are known for inventing high school drama. They all have VERY AGGRESSIVE CANCERS and are very angry at the world, especially those who have had success with alternative cancer therapies.
What’s even more disturbing is that they feel morally obligated to enforce the status quo (cut, burn and poison) treatments on everyone, and feel extremely insulted and hurt that a growing number of members are not simply doing what they’re doing. Of course not all alternative cancer treatments are legit. Questioning them, however, in a civil manner is quite different than spitting words such as mentally ill, quacks etc., or making childish sarcastic comments. That’s a deep insecurity on their parts.
The years wasted slandering “alties” on the internet and could be far better spent managing their own health.
Black-cat you are just one stone throw away from Stage 4. Use your time wisely honey before it’s too late.
Wow. I am so sorry the drama from BCO has oozed over here. And Leah, my name is rose. You can guess all day at my identity on BCO but you have things a bit wrong. According to my oncologist my chances of 10 year survival are better than 90%. . Using all caps will not make my cancer more aggressive.
I am not angry at anyone right now and think free diagnosis of my supposed insecurity is worth the price but no more.
Like I said sorry for the nasty that has made its way over here.
Leah, even if I didn’t know anything about alternative cancer treatments, I’d be applying the rule “Civil is as civil does” and concluding that you are a far more likely source of any “high school drama” than the people you’re maligning. You claim that questioning of treatments should be done “in a civil manner” but you have no trouble disparaging mainstream treatment as “cut, burn and poison” and you have no trouble sneering at someone else for being ill complete with the fake endearment “honey.” I wonder if you have any idea how grotesque that is.
Even if you were doing it in a wholly civil manner, I think I’d still be skeptical of what you say about Black-cat, Rose, and thenewme, for the simple reason that most of it is attempted mind-reading. “They’re angry at the world!” “They’re angry and hurt that people aren’t doing what they’re doing!” “They feel morally obligated to enforce the status quo!” “They’re acting out of a deep insecurity!” How would you know, when you aren’t them, aren’t inside their heads to be able to tell what they’re thinking or feeling? Frankly, it sounds like an angry child who claims “Daddy won’t let me play baseball in the house and it’s because he doesn’t want me to have fun!!” You yourself acknowledge that some alternative cancer treatments are not legit – i.e., they deserve the appellation of quackery – but when Rose or thenewme or Black-cat actually call them that, you can’t come up with any other explanation than “feeling a moral obligation to enforce the status quo”? So you have a credibility problem, even without taking the “taunting someone about how bad their cancer is” factor into account.
I think I’ll become an alt-med cancer cure peddler. I’ve got a herb garden that’s drying up in the drought and I need to get some use out of it.
Plus, the kind of people who come to me will sincerely believe that, if they get better, it’s because they stopped doing what a real doctor told them, and began following the regimen recommended by some whackjob with a website.
And if they get worse, it’s because by the time they began following the regiment recommended by some whackjob with a website, the cut, burn and poison of mainstream medicine had already doomed them.
It’s a win-win situation.
Sorry. “Regimen” not “regiment.” I’m having Marine Corps flashbacks, obviously.
(preview function, o where art thou?)
As far as claims that Protecel is working, wouldn’t it be wonderful if the shrinkage of tumors was documented by a medical source instead of someone who does measurements at home and then posts it on the internet.?What a service to cancer research that would be.
“Rose(mary)”, you know the woman had a PetScan. Please stop spreading rumors. You are way to old for this silly nonsense.
I’m a moderate when it comes to treatment options…what works for one might not work for another.
I don’t think it’s legal to take posts from bco especially to poke at other treatment options. There are copyright laws that come into play here.
Also…should those who choose alternative be keeping a list of stage 1 bc women who choose only the conventional approach and find within a few years on the stage IV forum? Unfair.
You are right. I am way too old for this nonsense. That is all.
Indeed! Leah’s posts here are rather trollish I would say.
Sorry if I hurt your feeling, Sauceress.You won’t here from me again. I’ll let you all go back to slandering BCO members in peace. Have fun Black-cat, Rosemary and thenewme and don’t worry, it’s not anybody is reading this thread.
Actually, that “especially” argues well for fair use, not that it’s a commercial use in the first place, making the point moot.
(The purported “perpetual, exclusive, royalty-free and irrevocable license to use, reproduce, modify, adapt, publish [blah, blah, blah]” forum messages in the “Community Rules” is just silly. This is 17 USC 201–205. Clicking “I have read the rules” is very unlikely to be an adequate form of conveyance, and there aren’t any perpetual exclusive licenses.)
Too funny! BlackCat, thenewme and so many others have your number. Good on them and good on this site for trying to expose you without interference.
Tone troll much?
How laughable, your utter nonsense and pathetic whining would be comedic it it wasn’t actually harming vulnerable women.
A. You were absent the day Fair Use was covered. The original author owns the copyright regardless if the violator is a commercial or noncommercial agent.
Unless the intent is educational or journalistic, e.g., a review, the intellectual property belongs to the original author. Even the charity, The American Cancer Society, cannot legally lift copyrighted material unless they can prove educational intent.
B. The author owns the copyright regardless of whether the publisher (BCO) claims it illegally as their own.
And yet it doesn’t work the other way around, does it? That is, a treatment which doesn’t work for one person might in fact not work for anyone. What exactly is meritorious about keeping silent about treatment options that cost cancer patients precious time, energy and funds and give nothing but false hope in return?
The intent behind copyright law was never so that copyright holders could selectively stifle public discourse. Your “especially” clause suggests that you’d make those who want to disagree with you in public jump through hoops that those who agree with you wouldn’t have to. In what way does it benefit the public interest to give copyright holders that power? None, which is why the copyright system doesn’t give it to them.
What’s unfair about it? The whole reason we trust conventional medicine more than we do “alternative” treatments is that conventional medicine actually wants to know whether its treatments are working or not, and actually collects data to find that out. Alternative medicine just trumpets its successes and pretends its failures don’t exist – or blames the victims, claiming they didn’t follow the “protocol” dreamed up by the guru in enough precise detail.
Leah July 8, 6:49 pm
Au contraire my dear Leah, no hurt feeling here.
I love a piece of fresh troll…nice and crunchy.
Unfortunately by the time I get to them here at RI, they’ve usually already been all chewed up, spat out and lay as a pile of incoherent, unidentifiable mess on the floor.
Huh? You seem to be suffering some confusion.
Trolls never seem to understand the difference between libel and slander either. I’ve noticed that’s a common troll-trait.
I have to wonder if Leah will stick the flounce…
Leah is Joylieswithin, aka sheila. Here she is coping to “writing a long reply::
“I wrote a long reply but will PM tomorrow since this is not private. I stayed up to watch Wimbledon and it’s finished so I must get to bed. I can tell you what really happened in the PM. Just to reassure you all, that woman has no critical thinking skills, she’s abusive, keeps a dossier of twisted “facts” about me, has no medical knowledge or even simple observational skills, and I know her weak points. She has met her match! I have her number and all she has on me is misinformation. Just poke her a bit very politely and she let’s loose and gives away all her weaknesses in her anger. She’s her own worst enemy.
Seems like leah projects a bit much.
But then again, what would expect from someone apparently so nasty as her.
Joylieswithin, aka Sheila, aka Leah, also posted this on BCO:
Topic: Our private details, real names, diagnoses, etc revealed on Orac
JoyLiesWithin or whatever the f*ck you want to call yourself today, why are you claiming that there is misinformation posted? You seem to be very good at making up your own “high school drama” and twisting the truth around.
On the above thread you accuse me of this:
“If I’m right, anything we’ve said is on display and we can’t delete or edit it. So maybe we do need to upgrade.
I’ve just been subjected to a personal attack on another forum where personal details I’d given in that forum (not here) in conversation over a long period was incorrectly quoted to discredit me. If you can’t use logic, just attack the other person. Then claim to be superior. Fortunately she deleted the information after I challenged her”
JoyLiesWithin, I deleted the my posts on you after I pointed out that you were Sheila and you sent me a PM, whining that I used your real name. You rationalized that you changed your name because that you were unaware that people could find out your true identity. Why lie, JoyLies,Within, aka Sheila, aka Leah
@black-cat, I know who you are, along with all your other ID’s. You better clean your mess up here. You are in big trouble.
You want to know how nasty this stupid b*tch really is? She involved herself in Impositve’s “cancer is a fungas” thread, She did not like any reference to Orac because she did not like his attitude.
Her son had just taken a critical thinking class so she appointed herself as the moderater/resident tone troll and sais that she was going to call everyone out on thier critical thinking fallacies. Everytime I linked to Orac’s blogs on Robert O Young and mentioned that he was a breast cancer surgeon, she accused me of the fallacy of appealing to authority.
Impositive had spun herself right off of this planet and was throwing up every pub med study that she could find with the word “myco”, when asked for proof that cancer was a fungas.
She was so far out there that she just knew that cancer was really a fungas and that researchers looking at slides were using the wrong stains and not seeing it. Impositive thought that only if she could discover what stain was used for seeing fungas cells under a microscope, she could truly prove to the world that cancer is a fungas.
Long story short, a young stage four woman with young children called her and JoyLiesWithin, (who was Sheila at the time) out on thier crap. She told Sheila that she was defending the indefensible and brought up the fact that impositve was quoting studies and books that she had either not read or did not understand.
Sheila, the tne troll that she is admonished her on the use of woo woo. How dare her use such a word. She apologized but Sheila was not done with her. She later posted that a stage 4 diagnosis equals certain death after much pain and agony.
Yes, she is projecting as she is stage 3 and had a bilateral mastectomy but refused chemo AMA because it’s such a poisen. She got 2 treatments and decided in her infinate wisdom that chemo does not work for those that are ILC.
The BCO moderators just removed the link( link removed by Mods to protect BCO members)
How did you know that she was the tone troll of the altie boards at BCO?
Also, JoyLiesWithin is in Australia. I think if Orac checked Leah’s isp address, it would come up as being in australia.
JoyliesWithin also posted on BCO:
The mods removed the link to “protect the members”
Here’s JoyLiesWithin’s signature line:
Ethics and compassion must come before science and logic. Medicine can rarely cure so research and alternatives are our best hope.
So Leah, aka JoyLiesWithin, aka Sheila,
You say that I have met my match, that you have my number, all you have to do is poke me politely and that I will let loose and give away all my weaknesses in anger.
I see your lame attempt at putting me in my place as Leah in these comments. I also see some of Orac’s commentators have put you in your place and you have left with your tail in between your legs.
As for this statement,”The years wasted slandering “alties” on the internet and could be far better spent managing their own health.
Black-cat you are just one stone throw away from Stage 4. Use your time wisely honey before it’s too late.”,………
you know damn right well from my posts that I know the seriousness of my diagnosis and as you like to put it “one stone throw away from stage 4”.
Don’t ever call me honey again or refer to me with some other fake term of endearment you [email protected] sick biotich. You are a game player with a twisted sick mind.
You know I would have more respect for you if you were honest and told me that my diagnosis of agressive breast cancer made you feel warm and tingly all over.
That picture of yourself that you removed after you discovered that someone could find you through google (DUH), was a good idea. We did have some laughs at it as you have the definate look of a half wit about you. Gotta love that big fat circular face and round thick glasses, not to mention that idiiotic expression you were touting. Where you constipated or what? It did look like you were straining.
Honey, sweetheart,babe, you might want to lose some weight chubby, because fat woman have a higher recurrance rate of breast cancer.. You got that you little cuddly wuddly, poopsie woopsie.
We also call you [email protected] That claim that we are outcasts is not true. You alties are a minority. I get many PM’s thanking me for correcting your stupidity. See that’s the problem with you altie’s, you pull facts out of your arses. Any statement is true just because you wish it so.
I remember when I first joined that someone asked about the atile boards and the answer that they got was, “they are very strange women who are mostly early stage breast cancer, with very strange beliefs”.
So why don’t’ you come over hear and put me in my place. You have been threatening to do it so do it. I don’t care if you call yourself JoyLiesWithin, Leah, or BlowingSunshineUpYourAss. . I’ll know it’s you.
Leah’s, aka JoyLIesWithin latest post:
“It seems one person has gathered information from around the web on people she disagrees with. She has then published it as she remembered it or out of context in a way that misleads the readers on a site that is not moderated like BCO. There are so many basic and important errors in the information.
People on the blog claim to be professionals yet seem to lack any understanding of freedom of speech, freedom to choose ones own treatments, even basic compassion as they defame people who are fighting stage IV cancer.
They don’t understand the basic fact that opposing someone tends to have the opposite effect and does nothing to persuade them to change. “
If I have any errors in the information that I have posted, I would like to know so please point them out JoyLiesWithin.
That’s life, when you said a surgeon and a nurse, would the nurse be the one who constantly spells fungus “fungas”, or talks of intERvenous instead of intRAvenous? If I was having a nurse insert an IV line I’d want to know she or he knows the difference between putting the needle IN the vein or BETWEEN two veins. I’d also want to know he or she honours patient confidentiality. I’d want to know she wouldn’t use a patient’s disease progression or their depression to taunt them.
I’d also want them to know that MOST conditions other than infections are incurable (but often treatable) unless they can be fixed with surgery. Especially they would understand that diabetes is incurable. Even the average mature adult with little medical knowledge must know that diabetics need medication for life and have their life expectation lowered. Or maybe they don’t understand the exact meaning of the word cure? I don’t think we’re dealing with a nurse at all.
If they want to challenge me I have seen many more inconsistencies, I could write pages but I’ll spare you all. Just look up diabetes cure on the net, or intervenous in a dictionary. Just basic knowledge for a real nurse……….
So I misspelled fungus. Big deal. Spelling was never a strong suit with me. I think you are lying when you accuse me of “talks of intERvenous instead of intRAvenous” When I refer or chart intravneous meds it’s always, “IV” or IVP” .
What’s with the bizzare use of caps, anyway. That gives you away as Leah. And why arent you posting as JoyLIesWithin here? What’s with the Leah persona?
Oh yes, as I told you before, type 2 diabetes is curable. I have told you many other facts that you don’t want to hear, also. Whenever you beat your chest and bellow out that there are no studies on alternative medicine, I tell you that NCCAM spends 27 million year on alternative studies and proves nothing and you proclaim “it’s a good start”. You come back a few days later and beat your chest and bellow out that there are no studies on alternative medicine.
As far as patient confidentiality, you are not my [email protected] patient you moron. HIPAA does not apply to you.
You also posted many times on BCO that you tried nursing school but did not make it through because they are elitists and your not an elitist so you were booted out. You than tried natuopatihic school but did not make it because they were also elitists. What the hell are you talking about anyway? I don’t get it. What kind of moron flunks out of natuopathic school.
I want to address this statement:
…..”If they want to challenge me I have seen many more inconsistencies, I could write pages but I’ll spare you all…..
I’m challenging you [email protected] Bring it on. Don’t spare me. I await with baited breath to hear the wisdom that you will dispense on this blog.
BTW: whenever I think of you, esp. now knowing what you look like, a song comes to mind, POOTCHIE COO. You call me honey and I’ll call you POOTCHIE COO and mimic your bizarre use of caps, just to show you how much I care. Aww isn’t great to have these pet names for each other. I really think that we are making progress here.
Oh yes, these are the lyrics of the song that reminds me of you……..I ain’t the sharpest tool in the shed
She was looking kind of dumb with her finger and her thumb
In the shape of an “L” on her forehead
JoyLiesWithin, we now have pet names for each other and our own song. Oohhh, I am so excited… Let’s hug it out, biotch.
Re:@black-cat, I know who you are, along with all your other ID’s. You better clean your mess up here. You are in big trouble……………..
What other ID’s? I don;’t have any other ID’s. Big trouble, huh? Bring it on.
This seriously needs to stop. There’s a difference between using strong language while making a solid point and using strong language instead of making a point. If everyone who posted in the recent string of comments is who they say they are, both sides are descending to depths they should be ashamed of (and if any of those comments are from people pretending to be someone else? The moderators will find out and expose you.)
It isn’t any better to taunt someone about being fat, or looking ugly, than it is to taunt them about a stage of illness. This isn’t “who can hurt each other worse”; it’s “who has the point of view that is better supported by facts and logic?” If someone says “Your favored treatment option has some impressive-sounding testimonials, but when you look closer, most of those people were doing mainstream treatment and alternative treatment, and there’s no basis for their assumption that it was the alternative treatment that did the job,” that tells me something about who’s bringing the logical thinking. If both sides are simply hurling insults, it tells me nothing about who’s got the right side of the issues.
I had a comment last night that said I was too old for this. Now I am way too old for this. Bottom line. A woman has anecdtal evidence Protocel works. She is touting it as the cure for all that ails humanity. That is not how medicine works.I don’t call names or fling stuff but facts are facts.
Since my last comment is gone,i guess i was swept away in the rip current. I did not think i was insulting but I was upset by a mess at another website being brought over here. I will still lurk. I am in awe of the intelligence and spirit here.
Moderation? Something the website which will not be named can use. Love it!!
You have it only partially right about me. My breast cancer *was* a particularly aggressive one. 5 cm triple negative tumor with sudden onset at age 39 with absolutely no known risk factors, no family history, completely out of the blue. Thanks for noticing, but what is your point about that?
You’re mistaken about my anger. I’m certainly not angry at the world. My anger is mostly reserved for the quacks and shills who prey on vulnerable breast cancer patients suddenly thrown into the overwhelming and terrifying world of cancer. Scamsters who troll cancer patient support sites with their siren songs, taking advantage of the fear and unpleasant realities of the disease, making false promises and selling false hope directly to their perfect target audience.
As for the slander and defamation and libel and copyright violation accusations…. I don’t think those terms mean what you think they mean.
Oh, let’s all take a deep cleansing breath…
I’m joking, of course.
You see, after years of reading/ hearing streams of invective launched by alt med proselytyisers, I often wonder how it affects those who buy into that worldview: they feed upon the vitriol and get revved up by the deliberately emotional language that is used to manipulate them and bias their decision-making. Read their fans’ comments on their facebook pages: you’ll see what I mean.
And it’s natural to respond to their histrionics emotionally as well because we ARE dealing with life-threatening issues.
So what’s a sceptic to do?
We learn to not react to the name-calling and derision; our esteemed and gracious host is a Supercomputer who may well serve as a sublimely effacacious role- model for us.
If you’ve ever been in a real emergency- a natural disaster or a medical situation- you’ll remember that frequently the best strategy is to shelve the emotions so that you can function effectively; during an economic fiasco, a person who manages money can’t rely upon feelings but data, facts and the rules/ history of the game. Believe me, it works!
So here is a bit of a plan:
We learn how alt med relies upon emotion and distorts real data:
par example, they might discuss deleterious effects of a SBM treatment without talking of its merits and its benefit/ risk profile. So we point this out.
We can dispassionately look at the real numbers.
Of course, then their retort may be that all SBM data is fixed.
Then we can use logic and probability:
as I once asked a ‘prentice anti-vaxx superstar, “How likely is it that ALL the research SBM consensus presents about vaccines is fixed?” It’s more likely that there is a single chiseler or a small coterie of emotionally/ financially invested cheats.
Lots of us like to joke and use curse words – obviously to cut the tension. And don’t forget, it takes time and patience to learn when vicious snark is *just* the right touch. We are all of us learning as we go along: discussing issues rather than LIVING them.
We do it because it is terribly important and necessary.
You have an excellent point. Woo peddlers are extremely good at manipulating people’s feeling. Then when they have pushed someone who actually believes in facts over the edge they trot out their tone troll and join in a chorus of indignation. I am sorry but cancer treatment is not a game for me. it is life and death.
I do not have scientific training but have a brother who is a chemist and a father, a husband, a son and a son in law who are engineers. Sloppy thinking has never been allowed in my house and you do not win an argument by dismissing a source without showing a better one. A scientific one. Probably (gasp) a government one.
I find their total dismissal of government sponsored research a brick wall especially when it extends to dismissal of academic institutions because one department in the school received funds for a totally unrelated project.
I don’t mind if people make money off my cancer. I will pay for worthwhile treatments but people who promote products that they know don’t work because their patients die are just -well I said i didn’t call names.
I don’t call names and I can’t type. I thought I had caught all the typos. Sorry
Have you seen any of the posts on RI trying to discredit Orac because one of his research projects received a small amount of funding from Big Pharma? So that means every single word on this blog is written for and paid by the drug companies and everyone who posts anti-alt messages is in the pocket of Big Pharma, according to them.
Wakefield, of course, was not in anyone’s pocket. Oh wait…
I personally prefer Big Parma, especially with spaghetti or shaved over a caeser salad.
they never say who is raking in the cash for their quackery.
Then there is the mistrust of government. Oh but a word of advice, don’t go on a breast cancer support board and bad mouth oncologist.
Darn it, should have been caesar salad. I hit “submit” before proofing.
By the ‘rules/ history of the game’ I meant those of the _Market_ and was simultaneously making an obscure movie reference to Jean Renoir’s 1939 masterwork. However, you could probably transfer the analogy to *scepticism* itself.
Human endeavors have rules and scenarios: by placing ourselves within this set of limitations, we can partially foresee and influence the most likely outcomes. Although dealing with the intricacies and uncertainties of a serious illness is hard work, *abstracting* ourselves a bit from it, from time-to-time, enables us to suffer less through the brief rest ( I *don’t* have any illnesses but have worked as a counsellor in this area). I realise that it is no walk in the park. Dealing with an illness and being a source of information are two distinctly different- altho’ often contemporaneous- tasks.
If our collective primary task is informing people about the dangers of woo, it’s probably best to keep an even keel. Actually, I think that most of BC.org SBM supporters here have tried and mostly achieved that. Which isn’t at all easy.
But like it or not, cool heads will usually prevail.
I’m still waiting for my check from Big Pharma. It sure would help with the medical bills.
Yes, I can hit below the belt, also and it makes me look just as bad.
This was two years of pent up frustration with dealing with the alties on BCO. JoyLIesWithin sneaking in with another identity and sneering at my cancer diagnosis is the last straw. I have only posted under the identity Black-cat. I hate the twisting of the truth, those with monetary and politial agendas who feel the need to try to talk newly diagnosed women out of treatment. I hate the fact that the alties that I deal with there are highly dshonest and try to cover up the women that progress to stage 4 after tryng the much coveted psueoscience. I hate the mentality “doctors dont know anything and we can use the school of google and arm ourselves with just as much information as they have”
I have a love of science and critical thinking and this is my first experience with a group of alties that will go to any lengths to distort the facts.
The women that shun conventional treatment for alternative are certainly a minority but one life lost because of those altie boards is one life too many.
Lots of us like to joke and use curse words – obviously to cut the tension. And don’t forget, it takes time and patience to learn when vicious snark is *just* the right touch. We are all of us learning as we go along: discussing issues rather than LIVING them.
We do it because it is terribly important and necessary
Paramedics can get pretty snarky too. The harder the call and the more that it bothers you, the more you make off color jokes and laugh about it. It’s a release “to cut the tension” and those that hold it in don’t last too long in the biz.
I did the same thing here. I’ll work on keeping my name calling to a minimun. I’ll still stoop to calling Gary Null a pig.
I will still post information on those that try to make money off of vulnerable cancer patents.. The others who are alties and innocents have nothing to worry about. I spoke with a lot of them via PM and there are some there that don’t have agendas and truly believe that alternatiive is better than “slash, poisen and burn”. They are a little misguided but not a danger to others.
Well, I wouldn’t call that stooping but it *is* extremely offensive to pigs who are, after all, just poor animals and can’t help either their appearance or manner.
And your description ( ” twisting the truth.. monetary and political agendas”) is equally apropro for woo in general . I also differentiate woo aficionados who are patients themselves ( as in HIV/AIDS denialists) or parent advocates ( as in anti-vaxx) from those who make their living off them- unfortunately, sometimes the line betwixt is blurred because marks may emulate their masters and start writing books and selling products ( see Age of Autism for many examples).
A tired hobo asked farmer John if he could give him a bed for the night. Farmer John told the hobo he could sleep in the barn with the pigs. One hour later, the hobo knocked on farmer John’s door and said, “They stink to high heaven, I can’t deal with the stench, anymore”.
Gary Null’s car broke down late at night and knocked on farmer John’s door and asked for a place to sleep. He took the offer to sleep wtih the swine in the barn. 15 minutes later there was a knock on farmer John’s door. He aswered it to find the pig’s oinking out, “”He stinks to high heaven, We can’t deal with the stench, anymore”.
Farmer John is now sueing Gary Null for the loss of his run a way pigs.
Black cat – you go girl! Screw those altie biotches!
What a sick site. I see the typical altie fearmongering. Jenny McCarthy on the front page of “Autism Science Digest” Yep, she is the cutting edge when it comes to finding out the latest research on autism.
Looks like the kind of comments on the bco altie forums if chemo was substituted for vaccines. Would work for this stsatement,”
Only stupid mommies let their kids get the chickenpox vaccine. Kids who get the vax have an extremely high rate of serious adverse reactions, including death, much higher than the very small number who die from the natural disease.”
What a surprise, there’s Mercola speaking out against GMO’s.
(sometimes the line betwixt is blurred because marks may emulate their masters and start writing books and selling products )
Yep, it’s very hard for me to tell if some of those that started out as marks and start selliing supplements and books, really believe in what they are doing or see how easy it is for their mentors to make good money fooling the gullible and want a slice of that pie for themselves. Others like vivre are very obvious but even with her, it’s hard to tell is she believes some of the trash she promotes and profits off of.
Anybody could start a website and sell supplements with very little overhead. Empty capsules could be purchased from a health food store and filled with tap water. Poach a couple of chapters from a physiology book and doctor up some sentences about xyz homeopathy cure and one could be off and running. Conspiracy theories involving Big Pharma would be a must.
black-cat and thenewme and others. Ever thought of starting a website that would provide sensible support for BC? In other words, science based research and altnernative methods that have merit in reducing the side effects and/or are being reseached. If the site can be dedicated to sensible sollutions and research, it might fill a void.
Excellent suggestion, followerfrombco. If black-cat and thenewme set up a website, I’m sure it would be a hit.
Of course black-cat/thenewme website would have to have actual information on it.
There’s only so may times you can use the word “quack” before people think you’re unbalanced.
D, no need to be snotty. I was serious about another website.
There are websites out there giving out better information. Often people who are attempting to reason with scared patients who are searching for alternative treatments that offer “real cure of the real cause,” “no poison/cutting/burning,” etc., will share links to them. Sadly, desperate frightened people (or people who have no idea how to afford chemo) are often tempted and may even purchase various books regarding “real cures,” etc.
It is fascinating. There was a temporarily free book on Amazon about “How to be your own doctor and knowing when to do so” or something like that. It was published posthumously by the author’s loving husband. She was a hygienist by practice and believed in toxins, etc. She also insisted she had cured several cancers by appropriate diet, rest and enemas.
She died of cancer, too, just like Hulda Clark.
I don’t know if some people occasionally get lucky and “hit” something that works for just one person, or if they just so happen to treat a person who has a miraculous regression. Without consistent results, though, any treatment is suspect. People need to realize that double-blinded clinical trials need to be done and that they should know how to tell a good trial from a bad one when evaluating information. If they do not know that, then they should have a trained person who knows how to do so evaluating the information for them.
If one does not believe in alternative methods why would one include them in a website? Once an alternative is shown to work it is no longer an alternative, it is good medicine. Good diet exercise not smoking are all conventional preventative measures for cancer. I am serious here. I am missing the point.
@Rose – that’s what the alt-woo people don’t get. Once something is found to work, it isn’t “alternative” anymore – it is just medicine….
Alternative medicine is not sensible support for breast cancer patients. Proven therapies are sensible. Alternatives are wishful thinking.
It is good to see black-cat has acknowledged her rants here were a very poor decision.
Black-cat, your words do not define anyone else. Your words can only define you. Learn it and live it.
Yes, I am seriously thinking of starting a website with thenewme (if she wants to) and others. I have been meeting with medical personnel and also plan on getting some university professors in the life sciences. My best friend is an attorney and we have been talking about the legalities of having a site. Se keeps reminding me of all the work it’s going to be and the start up fees but knows me and thinks that I can do it. I personally think she (and my family) is sick of my rants on bco and seeing the effect it has on me. They don’t understand why I even bother.
I have been all over bco the past couple of days and think that I can do better.
My idea for this site is to owned by numerous professionals who draw a salary of a dollar a year. Yes, there will be forums on psuedoscience and another one to list dangerous quacks but not to rant and rave about quacks, but to rather inform and educate.
(People need to realize that double-blinded clinical trials need to be done and that they should know how to tell a good trial from a bad one when evaluating information. If they do not know that, then they should have a trained person who knows how to do so evaluating the information for them)
I agree! I have seen enough of the altie forums on bco to know that alties either don’t understand or haven’t read the studies that they are touting. Of course these studies are to support whatever alternative miracle treastmet that they are cliaming. Orac wrote that he could find 55 studies on pubmed showing homeopathy works.
I thought this would be remedied by having a forum on studies that is moderated by someone of science that is able to explain them. Thy would have to have Orac’s talent for dumbing down posts so everyone can understand them.
It will take a great deal of work and effort, but I think it will work.
Black-cat – I hope you do open a website, and I hope it is advertised. There is a need for a place for people who don’t have their head in the clouds. It’s very disillusioning to read strings of posts, and then having the original poster make it apparent that their stories were nothing more than a veiled sales pitch for their favored remedy..
Not only was a protocel thread elsewhere shown to be a sales pitch – the poster was angry that no one wanted information to try it themselves, but some other poster now will reveal a miracle eraser for DCIS in a few months – with people egging her on, begging her now to delay telling them what it is.
Honest information would be nice for once.
I see now that your feeble threats of getting me in “big trouble” have petered out, you morph into a tone troll. I am not the one witth the multiple identities that you accuse me of. Those who live in glass houses…..
Any website you ran would be excellent. I know you would put your heart and soul into it and seek out the expertise of the very best, You go girl!
@black-cat, I never said I was going to get you in big trouble. You must read more carefully. No one else can get you in trouble. Only you yourself can do that. It’s the same as I said before.
Your words cannot define anyone else. They can only define you. Always choose them carefully and measure them critically.
Good luck with your website, should that ever materialize.
July 9, 12:11 am
@black-cat, I know who you are, along with all your other ID’s. You better clean your mess up here. You are in big trouble.)
Your words cannot define anyone else. They can only define you. Always choose them carefully and measure them critically)
Yes, I take your first post as feeble threats to silence me. Tell me, Lucy, did you give critical thought to that first post and is that an example of how carefully you choose your own words?
@followerfrombco and blackcat – thanks for the kind words, but honestly, I don’t think I have it in me to do a website. I’d love if one existed, but my experience with BCO has left me pretty disillusioned.
@D – Re: “Of course black-cat/thenewme website would have to have actual information on it. There’s only so may times you can use the word “quack” before people think you’re unbalanced.”
Apparently you haven’t read my posts on BCO, since I *do* post actual factual, evidence-based information. Or maybe you’re under the influence of the quacks (if it walks like a duck and sells rubber ducky suits, then…ya know.) who consider “actual information” to be things like Rife machine therapy or oil pulling or alkaline diet or BHRT therapy for curing your own cancer without the bothersome and evil influence of real medical doctors (no, the “naturopathic oncologists” they like to rave about don’t count.)
Re: “People need to realize that double-blinded clinical trials need to be done and that they should know how to tell a good trial from a bad one when evaluating information. If they do not know that, then they should have a trained person who knows how to do so evaluating the information for them.”
I couldn’t agree more! I’m so frustrated that BCO, which *could be* such a great support resource for real breast cancer patients dealing with a very real life-threatening disease, has become a haven for quacks and misinformation. The shills and MLM’ers there make a game of it, appealing to the vulnerable emotions and desperation of patients in order to hawk their useless supplements, “rebounders,” infrared saunas, health freedom expos, thermography, and every other quack treatment you can think of and then some! When confronted about their agendas, they either shift the focus or downright lie about their affiliations and then try to turn it around and make *me* out to be the bully or troll or Big Pharma shill or whatever. It’s sick. Just really, really sick.
And just what do you mean by “define” in this context, Lucy? I suspect you haven’t actually thought about what you mean by it, and have given even less thought to whether the premise it denotes is actually, y’know, true.
I suspect you mean something along the lines of “If I tell myself I’m a wise seeker of truths, those words will define me as a wise seeker of truths. They will make my actions wise actions; they will make the truth be where I am seeking it.” Sadly, the world does not work this way. If I invest my savings into a perpetual motion machine scheme, it does not make a difference if I try to define myself with words as “a brilliant entrepeneur.” My actions have defined me more deeply than my words can.
@ black-cat, absolutely. I always choose my words carefully and measure them critically. I wasn’t trying to silence you, btw. If you are to be silent or not is entirely up to you. I was simply giving you a heads up.
I do wish you well and hope you are in a better place now.
Careful, now! You’re cutting right to the heart of the very essence of quackery there!
*Of course* it’s true if they think/want/say it to be true! Just ask ’em! How else are they supposed to increase their downline and affiliate income and bonuses?
@ A Feldspar, I mean exactly what I said in very simple terms. Black-cat made several disparaging posts about several different people. The words a person uses about another doesn’t define that person, but it tells me much about the person using them.
Are you saying you believe that say, my words, can define who you are? Surely not.
Lucy, why would you lie about me having multiple ID’s. What does this say about you? Just that one lie ruins your credibility with me, not that you had any, esp. if you are lucy88 on bco. If you are Lucy88,you lie like a rug. And what are you giving me a heads up about? Your thinly veiled threats are extremely vague.
See, that’s my problem with you alties, you twist words and the truth to mean whatever you want them to mean. Every single one of you that I mentioned here are highly dishonest game players. Let’s take Leah, JoyLIesWithin, Sheila for instance. She was called out here for for sneering at my breast cancer diagnosis. What did she do? Go straight back to bco and make the announcement that the commentators on Orac’s site sneer at women with stage 4 breast cancer. She also ranted that this site is censored. Classic example of an altie wanting others to believe something is true just because she said so.
I would not care if you were on a worried well altie site but you are messing with sick and vulnerable women’s heads for your own agendas. Just that one lie ruins your credibility with me, not that you had any, esp. if you are lucy88 on bco.
Why don’t you cut the crap on the fake caring. I just love this thinly veiled slight at the pretense of being compassionate and concerened.
(Good luck with your website, should that ever materialize.)
As for being in a better place RI [email protected] rocks. Tone trolls like you are called out on their crap, unlike the altie boards at bco.
LUCY, YOU GOT SOME SPLAININ TO DO
Do you not see the obvious difference in meaning between these two deep thoughts of yours:
(Black-cat, your words do not define anyone else. Your words can only define you. Learn it and live it.)
(@ A Feldspar, I mean exactly what I said in very simple terms. The words a person uses about another doesn’t define that person, but it tells me much about the person using them)
There you go getting all twisty with those words again. You alties are true Darwiniian Award winners when it comes to rationalizing your nonsense..
If my words define me does that mean that if I say I am a mermaid then I am one? But wait NOAA says mermaids don’t exist. Dang gubmint..
Rose July 10, 9:59 pm
Don’t tell my daughter!
My husband sent me a text about it last week. I told him he was evil until he promised not to tell.
My husband keeps saying they are manatees and when I say manatees do not look like beautiful women he replies that I have not been at sea for months.
I mean exactly what I said in very simple terms. I don’t think you’ve thought about just what you mean when you say “define”, and if you mean it in such a way that every person gets to define themselves simply by choosing words, and that “definition” will apply even if it is contradicted by their actions, then I think your definition of “define” is a load of crap.
No one else can get you in trouble? Does that mean that no one ever got framed for a crime?
Your comment looks like a clever aphorism the meaning of which you have not thought through.
That is not said yo pick on you but merely to ask exactly what you meant because your words were not clear to me..
I am a stage IV breast cancer person who goes to the forums on BCO for research, and also for community with women and men who are experiencing the same/similar thing at the same time as me. I was a registered nurse as well as a registered midwife who was educated in a evidenced based university program designed by some of the people in the forefront of evidence based medicine at McMaster University. I say this by way of explanation of who I am and where I am coming from.
My treatment consists of those recommended by Cancer Care Ontario, mx, docetaxol, herceptin, letrozole. I get weary of all that, including blood work, diagnostic scans etc. so when I go to the Alternative Forums and Complementary Forums at BCO I am looking for something, I don’t know, the germ of something new, something that might make physiological sense, but it’s so new that it is Alt. I haven’t found that something, but I continue, maybe that’s why I have been convinced to buy way over priced face creams that I know are “just hope in a bottle”. I think that while there are credulous members of BCO, the majority of us are rather sensible women who want to know as much as we can about all aspects of possible treatment, evidence based medicine, as well as woo and things that are just “out there”. I do wish that this thread could stop discussing specific women from BCO and back to the topic Protocel-it doesn’t work.
I go there for the same reasons you do….searching for that proverbial needle in a haystack. Something that might just give me a treatment edge.
I know what you mean about discussing specific women from BCO. On the other hand, though, a woman there claims to be having fantastic results curing her own Stage IV breast cancer with protocel (using a dimestore ruler to measure her palpable tumors and using eye goop and stool mucus as a gauge of progress!). She has started her own website to “PROMOTE PROTOCEL” (her own words from her site!), and she’s hawking it there on BCO.
In my opinion, it’s disgusting, disingenuous, and just evil. If she wants to use protocel, I have no problem at all with that. To me, she crossed the line into promoting it and making unsubstantiated claims about it directly to a very captivated target audience of breast cancer patients, that she deserves to be called out. Called out for being a scammer and a quack. At that point, she’s no longer ” just an innocent breast cancer patient fighting the battle for her life” like the rest of us.
Why doesn’t she participate in a *REAL* medical monitoring program if her success is real, verifiable, and legitimate? Why don’t the Protocel makers do a real trial? I guarantee if it showed real evidence of benefit in treating, curing, or preventing cancer, they’d have more money and fame than they could handle. I’d give every penny I have and dedicate my life to promoting it too.
Unfortunately, when I look into it, all I find are affiliate networking links to Tanya Hart Pierce’s book “Outsmart Your Cancer,” promising me great income potential for hawking her BS.
Protocel is just another Amway-type scam. Except that instead of cleaners that leave dirty floors, Protocel kills people. An innocent game? A poor desperate breast cancer patient trying to survive? Or a con artist earning income by deceiving cancer patients with false promises, life-threatening advice and conspiracy bullshit?
@ORAC – just for the record, I stand by every single thing I post, here and elsewhere. I don’t have time, energy, or reason to pretend to be something or someone I’m not, despite what you may be told. I’m sorry that some seem to be trying to drag you into the fray, but I’m happy to clarify or provide more information about anything I’ve said.
Thanks again for all you do!
@black-cat, first, I am not an altie. In fact, I have never posted on the forum at bco. I’ve never heard of Lucy88.
I was disturbed to see someone with breast cancer direct so much vitriol and hatred toward other women with breast cancer. Your horrific words towards others define who you are. Words are powerful things. The intent in your words towards others define YOU. And from where I am looking in, you are a very frightened and damaged person.
I won’t speak for blackcat, but your mis-perception is a common cry from “alties.” Most skeptics’ “vitriol and hatred” isn’t toward other women with breast cancer. It’s more likely directed at predators of women with breast cancer.
Re: “…but some other poster now will reveal a miracle eraser for DCIS in a few months – with people egging her on, begging her now to delay telling them what it is.”
OMG, I just saw that! So she’s holding the secret to miraculously curing her own large DCIS breast cancer tumor without surgery…. and she’ll report her results on November 7, 2012??? Gee. I’m holding my breath….
I guess the secret miracle cure is to keep people paying attention to her.
We have been friends for a long time. You can freely speak for me anytime. I trust you with my impeccable reputation. I just sent you an email. Would love to hear your thoughts.
Re:(“The intent in your words towards others define YOU. And from where I am looking in, you are a very frightened and damaged person.”)
Give it up. This is the 3rd time you have twisted the meaning of YOUR words. Not an altie, huh. Could have fooled me for the way you rationalize what you wrote when you are called out on your crap. Gee, how does that define your emotional health. Emotionally healthy people don’t rationalize away their mistakes and don’t come across as pathological liars.. Alties can out rationalize and out lie any hard core alcholic under the table any day. Until I was introduced to the topsy turvy altie alternate universe, I thought alcoholics held the corner market when it came to rationalizing and lying.
I strongly suspect you are Lucy88, your writing styles are exact, and you both love to twist the meaning of your words around when confronted on the validity of the meaning of those said words. . But I can’t prove it because you are not announcing on other websites under other names who you are and “how I have met my match” and than seem surprised when I out you (duh).
So, I can’t prove that you are the person that I strongly suspect that you are but frankly, Scarlett, I don’t give a damn. Give it up. You have been successfully called out on your drivel.
I suggest you go back to the altie boards on bco where you are an accepted and revered alumni. All of this negativity cannot be good for your inner peace. Your chakras are probably so far off center it’s going to take a special naturopath that’s trained in quantum mechanics of the mind and the art of reseting your nervous system to get you back to center. That’s gotta cost some big bucks.
Those on BCO who claim to be in the medical field yet harass, insult and denigrate women with breast cancer and who are crying mommy here are:
1. not credible. Period
2. give the medical professions a very bad name
3. out of touch with reality
4. extremely dangerous – willing to go to any length
5. in need of immediate psychiatric help
There is no excuse for viciously and malignantly terrorizing suffering women. Their cruelty fills me with revulsion
To the cannibal amongst you who said:
‘I love a piece of fresh troll…nice and crunchy. Unfortunately by the time I get to them here at RI, they’ve usually already been all chewed up, spat out and lay as a pile of incoherent, unidentifiable mess on the floor.’
You must be possessed. The most grotesque and creepy creature I have ever seen, I can’t even imagine the looks of you because I don’t watch horror movies
And to the one that said:
‘Black cat – you go girl! Screw those altie biotches!’
YOU WIN THE PRIZE FOR THE MOST VULGAR AND DETESTABLE BIOTCHE !
To those using the French sauce, Denice up there, pleeeeease, you turn my stomach
FYI Orac, unless you are thenewme/ blackcat, that despicable creature has been hiding behind your name on BCO and thanks to her/him you have become the symbol of insanity. You are despised as much as the coward it is
Ahhhhhh, now that feels so good, hum !!! All that pent up frustration 😉
ETA: thenewme/blackcat is likely the author of:
“…but some other poster now will reveal a miracle eraser for DCIS in a few months – with people egging her on, begging her now to delay telling them what it is.”
I did mention insanity, didn’t I ?
I have to add that I love the fact that Orac does not tolerate sock puppets on this site. Lucy, you can’t make up other identities to back you up. If this were bco, there would be 5 more Lucy’s under different names posting for the first time. Each of those identities would claim that they just out of the blue stumbled on this thread and have to speak up on the poor injustices that Lucy is suffering. The writing style would be just like Lucy’s. The fact that you can’t do that here must really chaff your hide.
Re: “I did mention insanity, didn’t I ?”
Yeah…and demonstrated it, too!
@Boudicca – awwwww, shucks….thank you!
*Jergen says while holding up her gold statue award*
I would like to thank all the idiotic Alties on BCO. Without them, this would not be possible. Thank you!
Oh my. Boudicca.
First of all trolls are nasty mean creatures who live under bridges and while eating them would not be to my taste, exactly how is that cannibalism?
Oh and who was it who said”There is no excuse for viciously and malignantly terrorizing suffering women.” I guess it all depends on whose ox is being gore.
Interesting. So, you aren’t deeply enough involved with the BCO forums to have ever posted there, or to have ever heard of Lucy88, but you are deeply enough involved that within days of Black-cat starting to post here, you’re already aware of it and volunteering all sorts of (so far, unsubstantiated) attacks on her character?
You are aware that in the best-case scenario, this paints you as someone who has little interest in posting constructively, on a subject where you could be offering help or moral support, but has great interest in bad-mouthing people and will bestir themselves to post if it means they get to tarnish a reputation?
The alt forum on BCO is dominated by women who want no questions asked. Nobody attacks them as much as they attack and whine about anyone who dares to ask for information that provides evidence of efficacy. Very often the sales types stop posting when the questions become too pointed and skeptical. At that point they must figure they are about to be exposed. Usually they cry they are being bullied. No, they are being asked for information.
The site is run by a Dr and I truly do not understand why these people are given free reign to promote Protocel, black salve, etc. it’s despicable on the part of the site owner.
Then again if these people are stupid enough to believe this BS perhaps we should just turn away from the coming train wreck.
And this is Lucy’s very first post,, who just just happened to stumple upon the comment sections of this particular post
July 9, 12:11 am
(@black-cat, I know who you are, along with all your other ID’s. You better clean your mess up here. You are in big trouble)
‘Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive’
Antaeus, I will beat you one coffee enema that Lucy’s not done here and still tries to put a spin on this misinformation of hers.
make that bet you one coffee enema
(Ahhhhhh, now that feels so good, hum !!! All that pent up frustration )
I can understand what a relief it must be for you to release copious amounts of methane gas into the atmosphere from your bloated body , but just think of what you are doing to the ozone layer. You are creating a clear and present danger. Your butt is a weapon of mass destruction. For the love of God, think of the children and cork it up.
Boy, those altie women from BCO are sure nasty – it’s a wonder anyone is game enough to post on that site.
they are far nastier than us skeptics that have been on that site for years. They are not only nasty, they are deceitful and they get away with it. You can see from Lucy’s posts the crazy making of constantly twisting the truth. Reason and logic do not exist in the alite world You can’t have a concrete and legitimate argument with them because they keep twisting and changing the premises. Think of trying to reason with a couple of dozen Lucy’s. It will drive you positively mad.
During my 2 year self imposed altie prison sentence, I had so many people contact me and thank me for being the voice of reason. Some of them were alties and they thanked me for exposing psuedoscience and explaining it in a way that they could understand. That’s why I stayed as long as I did.
I have been told by newly diagnosed women that vivre and lucy88 were pming them and trying to talk them out of chemo and sell them crap. This is allowed. I even seen vivre go into the stage one forums and openly try to persuade women not to get treatment. The last one I saw was stage one, her2 positive. This is accepted and encouraged. Almost every time I mentioned this my posts would be deleted. It’s up to other members to do something about it. If you email the moderators about this you will get a canned, “she’s only expressing her opinion” answer.
I can give it right back to them but I have seen so many polite gentle people, with a science background, get humilated and leave in frustration. I have seen a woman, who is a microbiologist, told that she is ignorant and did not know how to read the studies she presented. Of course she did. Ironically it was Lucy88 that told her that she dosent know how to read studies and Maud,( whom I strongly suspect is Boudicca,) who called her ignorant. You have to be thick skinned to post on that site, that is unless you are an altie and into conspiracy theories.
BCO is a broken site and that’s why I would like to get another website started that has no woo and is run by volunteers that are professionals in science and medicine.
I thought this discussion was going to be about Protocel. Orac you’ve yet to respond to my post.
Dear; thenewme, Orac and Black-cat. (a triliogy of personas? Oh my) Yes, I used a dimestore ruler to measure my palpable tumors but I am also having PET scans quarterly under the supervision of my Oncologist. What part of that isn’t conventional medicine? My Oncologist, while a medical establishment skeptic, is amazed by my progress on this treatment. I am not a scam artist hawking Protocel…I stand to gain nothing.
My dear Breast Surgeon, you are the one making the 6 (or is it 7) figure income. I on the other hand, am not (nor will I ever) make one single penny for the sale of Protocel. Not one. I will however, live and to me that is the richest payment of all.
Number one: I am not Black-cat, the newme, or anyone else on the BCO boards. I have never posted on BCO, either as Orac, my real life identity, or any other identity. In fact, it was only in the discussion threads here on my own blog that I even learned how appalling BCO’s alt-med discussion forum is; that was the first time I ever perused BCO, and I did it only briefly.. I do, however, plan on mentioning it and warning people about it in a talk I’m giving in a few hours about cancer information on the Internet, though; so I’m grateful to have learned about it.
Second, posts revealing personal details of pseudonymous commenters on BCO have been removed. Apparently, the mods at BCO complained, but in this case I have to agree. Not to Black-cat: Stop outing posters there. I will not tolerate it. Having blogged under a pseudonym for many years, I am particularly sensitive to the issue of “outing” of pseudonymous bloggers and commenters.
Third, you seem to think I make a lot more money than I do. Seven figures? Seriously? I don’t know a single physician who makes that much money, not even those who own businesses on the side, with the exception of alt-med docs like Dr. Mercola and Dr. Burzynski. The point is, I’m sure they exist, but they’re not common in the circles I travel in, although there are quite a few quacks who make seven figures.
Finally, Protocel is pure quackery. There’s no valid evidence that it works. There’s no biological mechanism by which it could work; in fact the explanations for how it “works” go against well-established biology.
Again, as I did on the BCO boards, I would like to thank you for helping me get the word out that Protocel is a viable option. By keeping this topic alive, it leads me to believe that deep down in your stainless-steel heart of hearts, you realize that Protocel is the answer that the trillion dollar oncology industry has been dreading for over 40 years.
No, Protocel is pure quackery. It doesn’t work. That’s the message of this post.
That proclamation sounds like it’s straight out of “The Quackery Guide to Sales Pitch”
That proclamation sounds like it’s straight out of “The Quackery Guide to Sales Pitch”
“Protocel [if it actually worked would be] the answer that the trillion dollar oncology industry has been [rigorously and actively pursuing] for over 40 years.”
There, fixed that for you.
Ooops…not guilty! Even exact same time stamp.
If you wonder who role models vitriolic and hateful speech concerning SBM, wonder no more : the woo-meisters I survey have an endless supply of derision put forth through internet radio, ‘documentaries’ and website blogs/ articles/ exposes. Their advocates mimic both their style and talking points. Go to Natural News Radio or the Progressive Radio Network for an audio sample.
One of my own faves is the so-called ‘Cult of the Professional’- wherein those who study and earn degrees are revered for their achievments and regarded as experts when the entire set-up is merely a ‘fix’ by the powers-that-be to promote and substantialise their own wicked agenda.
Yes, Uncle Rupert paid for my education and now expects RETURNs on his investment, It’s all true.
Uncle Sugar paid for mine. But I’m still waiting for my Big Pharma payoff.
This has been interesting. I usually try to avoid train wrecks but I found myself oddly fascinated.
Thank you, all, for having the intellectual capacity and ego integrity to withstand the unwarranted attacks on your persona.
I understand that the people who dominate this web site are evidence based medicine supporters, and that, most of, the posters who cast aspersions are not. If I could have my way there would be no argumentum ad hominem. Alas it is difficult for most of us to remain civil while disagreeing.
Maybe we all just need to get our chakras balanced 😉
@katrn – your assessment of my identity is as bizarre as your assessment of protocel. I’m flattered that you’d think I’m Orac, but I’m not even in the same league as he is (cancer knowledge-wise, career-wise, and certainly not salary-wise, LOL!). I’m a real breast cancer patient who is frustrated and concerned about misinformation about alternative medicine “treatments” for breast cancer that have no basis in fact or reality.
The fact is that YOU advertised your new website on BCO, and YOU evidently posted your real (?) name on your site and listed your occupation as “PROMOTING PROTOCEL.” You constantly refer to Protocel affiliate income network marketing scamsters in your gushing testimonials about miraculously curing yourself of stage IV breast cancer.
Gee, I wonder why anyone might get the impression that there’s more to it than meets the eye.
I very sincerely hope that if you are a real BC patient, that you are doing (and continue to do) as well as you claim. As a breast cancer patient myself, though, I can’t imagine why there are no evidence-based studies supporting Protocel. Is there any reason you and/or the company selling you this stuff aren’t publicizing your miraculous cure in a verifiable, legitimate medical monitoring situation? If it’s truly as great as you claim, then we all want to know about it! My life could be at stake here, and I’d love nothing more than an easy answer like this. What do you have to lose? What does the company have to hide? Why do they need to rely on (potentially) anonymous internet hucksters to become “affiliates” to sell their products?
Also, you said, “…My Oncologist, while a medical establishment skeptic…” Could you clarify this? Any chance your oncologist might be a “naturopathic oncologist,” rather than a licensed medical doctor?
Best of luck at TAM, and thank you SO MUCH! It’s so good to know that we breast cancer survivors/patients have a true evidence-based advocate on our side.
Your point about personal info on pseudonymous posters is well taken and understood, but to be honest, everything that was posted here was found quickly and easily on BCO itself and Google. It’s information that the posters themselves advertise and promote, so it’s kinda disingenuous for them to turn around and pretend that they didn’t want their stuff public. Anyway, point taken.
Oh, and sorry about your laptop, but it’s nothing that your seven-gajillion-dollar salary couldn’t easily replace, eh? LOL!
“By keeping this topic alive, it leads me to believe that deep down in your stainless-steel heart of hearts, you realize that Protocel is the answer that the trillion dollar oncology industry has been dreading for over 40 years.”
I take this response as an admission you are fully aware that Protocel is a complete crock. Thank you for your confession.
I sincerely apologize for using your blog to rant about the players on BCO. I am told that I am brutally honest even when I should not be. It was wrong of me to out people on BCO, no matter what the reason was. I know all about what happened with you when you were first outed and the sick and obviously untrue statements that were posted about you on the internet. I am thinking of one in particular but it’s too disgusting to bring up.. The AoA dirtbags calling your workplace and trying to get you fired is truly despicable. I’m glad that you were supported and given the green light to continue this blog. I am also aware of tthe other brillant blogger that was not that lucky and do think what happened to him is truly sickening. When I outed these posters from BCO, I rationalized that it was the same thing as outing quacks. One of my biggest problems with alties is the way they use idiotic rationalizations when I call them out on their crap. I see now that I was wrong and resorted to what I accusssed others of. We often accuse others of what we are guilty of ourselves. Dishonesty begins in the home. My heart was in the right place but the way I went about it was wrong.
I ask that you please delete my rants on JoyLiesWithin. As much as I don’t care for this person, she dosent deserve what I dished out to her.
I want to make it perfectly clear, that I nor thenewme have never claimed to be you or Stephen Barrett.. However, we have been accused of this many times. The BCO alties hatred for RI and Quackwatch is palpable. However, I have posted your blog and quackwatch articles many times on that alite boards, giving credit where credit is due. Both websites have covered every kind of quackery posted on the altie boards except drinking copious amounts of Lugols iodine to cure breast cancer. I may be overlooking it but I can’t find anything on this particular subject on either site.
You will never convince the alties that you are not filthy rich. They are sure all oncologists are in cohots with Big Pharma and live like kings and queens in big castles. An altie asked me what the difference was between alt med practionars and oncologists getting rich off of “conventional medicine”. My reply was that oncologists are not rich and they have to work for a living. The oncologists that I know work 5 days a week, 40 plus hours. I know of a 62 year old oncologist who has been practicng for 30 years. She is in her office early in the morning, even before the front office staff. Often she runs over with patients and is out of there after 6:00 pm. She uses vacation time to attend the San Antonio breast cancer symposium every year. I do not know her salary and if I were a betting woman, I would place my money on well under the 7 figure range.
Hey thanks for the tip Sybil. I did edit my occupation to reflect that I’m sharing my personal Protocel success story.
I’m also not going to read or respond anymore to this thread. It has not been plesant to say the least.
Ms. Nagain, why should we believe you?
Hey, Chris – think she’s stick the flounce?
What is stick the flounce, anyway? This is the second time someone posted this. I’ve never heard of it before.
“Stick the flounce” is a reference to the swirly flounce that you see when a person angrily leaves a room in a huff. And the “stick” part seems to reference the term used when a gymnast does a great dismount, as in “stick the landing.” I found this:
It looks like a combination of the “stick the landing” of gymnastics, with flouncing out of the room in an angry huff.
@ Black-Cat: Jeez…get with the program 🙂
Lilady, thanks for the laugh. That describes every alite on BCO to a T. Every time I mentioned tone troll an altie would announce, “violation of forum rules, post reported” That person knows who she is. I just love the honesty amd freedom over here. A spade is called a spade. It’s nice to be back into the real world again where most things make sense.
I was going to join you and Kelly over at “that wretched site of scum and quackery” two weeks ago but I ended spending the entire night with an elderly friend in the ER. who had a hypertensive crisis. I bought her an automatic B/P cuff 4 years ago and she called me and told met that her blood pressure was 210/80 and was having a terrible pressure behind her eyes and should she go back on her baby aspirin. I spent half the night convincing her to go to the ER and the other half at the ER. It wasn’t easy but I finally had to threaten her with, “If you go to bed you might not wake up and I’m calliing your daughter unless you get into the car right now.” It worked
Needless to say I was toast the next morning and pretty much the day after. Next time.
Interesting. So, let me fill in a few inductive syllogisms:
1) If we professed extreme acceptance of Protocel, describing it as the answer that everyone’s been searching for in the cure for cancer, Kat would surely take that as affirmation that Protocel is the ultimate anti-cancer agent. (I’ll just call it “ACBK” for now, for “anti-cancer bee’s knees.”)
Please let us know if you dispute this, Kat.
2) If, as we actually do, we disparage Protocel and call it a “treatment” that has no reliable evidence demonstrating that it works and no prior plausibility that would lead us to guess that it has any good chance of working, Kat takes it as affirmation that Protocel is the ACBK.
Since the responses we described in 1) and 2) pretty much represent the two ends of the spectrum, I think we can safely conclude by induction:
3) No matter what we say to Kat, she will take it as affirmation that Protocel is the ACBK.
Now, for a general principle:
4) In order to have any validity or be of any use, a diagnostic method must have what I will call “discriminatory response.” This means that the diagnostic method will ideally respond “true” when the underlying phenomenon is true, and “false” when the underlying phenomenon is false. The value of the diagnostic method is impaired by any deviations from this schema, to varying degrees depending on the degree and nature of the deviation.
5) A diagnostic method which has NO discriminatory response, which always gives an identical output no matter what input is presented, has zero value.
6) As seen in 3), Kat’s diagnostic method always arrives at the answer “Protocel is the ACBK!!” no matter what input she gets, and therefore her diagnostic method has zero value.
Any part of this you’d like to dispute, Kat?
KatRNagain92 July 12, 10:36 am
I’ve been quietly following along reading the relevent BCO threads (public forum after all) and here’s the “thanks” Kat refers to:
Hilarious. Thanks Kat 🙂
For some more laughs go to the search box on BCO and enter “Orac” or “Quackwatch”
Oh and Boudicca (July 11, 5:16 pm) your faux outrage, pearl clutching and teeth gnashing toward a metaphor is noted.
I was initially going to dissect that sad tone trolling attempt and grade it’s elements separately however I decided that if you wish for that kind of personal attention you will definitely need to try harder.
I’m afraid your current attempt barely reaches a pre-school level.
If you should disagree with my assessment, then I’ll look forward to reading any further attempts you may like to offer.
Oh yes, I forgot. Gut feelings and woman’s intuition mean so much more than doctor’s opinions. Vivre constantly quotes from a book written by Christine Northrup (she’s selling this book btw) on gut feeliings. She has repeatedly posted that she spit out her cancer medication (arimidex) and threw the pill bottle across the room because her gut feeling told her to do this. After posting this for the umptemth time, another women just said that she is going to march into her oncologists office and say no to arimidex because her gut feeling is telling her not to take it.
If I were to point this out to the mods, I would get the same canned answer, “vivre is not breaking forum rules, she is merely expressing her opinion”
The mods do not understand the meaning of informed consent. It dosent look like the physician who runs that site does either.
If you want more fun, search for Usana.
Could someone please translate this from whackaloon to English.
What is “the chemical community”?
What on earth could Orac be doing that would have been treason in 1890, but is not treason now?
“Orac is a drone in the chemical community and if this were the 1890 she’d be tried for treason.”
Orac is a female?
They think that I am Orac because I post his blog so much.
@ Black-cat: You were missed at the Ho-Po, but there will be other times to join me there. Besides, you really did a great job caring for your friend.
I really wasn’t kidding when I stated that the alties on BCO have spun themselves right of off this planet. They are waaaay out there still spinning.
Thanks, lilady. Had to prioritize. Wanted to be on that particular one, though, as it dealt with breast cancer quackery. You did a great job yourself, over on the huffpo
Could be. Near on impossible to determine the gender of a supercomputer posing as a plexiglass box of blinking lights.
Maybe that’s the one on youtube where all the elements are singing and dancing.
I’m still trying to figure out this one from Boudicca. I hear the art of mastering the whackaloon language from the indigenous altie BCO troll tribe is not an easy task. God knows I have tried.
“To those using the French sauce, Denice up there, pleeeeease, you turn my stomach”
Way to go Kat for letting Orac’s “believers” see the truth. Protocel is saving lives!
Orac you must think MD stands for Murder Degree. You give the chemical community a bad name. Shame on you. You are a quack by your own definition.
@Leah – wow, at this point you aren’t even trying…..
My thoughts as well Lawrence. As a troll Leah makes a great sleep aid.
Leah please do try to make more of an effort here.
Your feeble trolling attempts make the inanity and arrogance of ignorance displayed by even our most clueless trolls almost seem like pearls of wisdom.
You really are embarrassing yourself.
Again, if you insist on trying your hand at trolling RI, please do try a little harder!
Thanks for the search terms. Distinctions between the patterns of unique rhetoric favoured by particular posters there continue to emerge and clarify. It’s not too hard to work out.
Orac should lose his license to practice medicine. He is too interested in being a cult leader. You vulnerable so-called science people are under his spell. You all treat his blogs like the bible and questioning what he writes is not encouraged.
Do a search under black-cat’s name at BCO. 99% of her posts are links to Orac’s blogs and nothing else. She also rambles on and on here, talking to herself about how much she abhors those who use alternative cancer treatments and spreading gossip. Sorry those are red flags. She needs deprogramming. I’m sure I’m not the only one who thinks mental illness may be playing a part too.
Here’s what you don’t get, Leah: it’s not that we don’t question the opinions Orac offers or fail to be skeptical of claims he makes because we’re “under his spell”. It’s that orac eliminates the necessity to be skeptical by providing credible objective evidence in their support when he posts them. If alt med advocates would do the same –if they could offer as strong an evidence-based advocacy for their preferred alternative treatments–we’d similarly withold skepticism.
They have not, however.
In lieu of evidence the alt med community relies on gut feelings (aka ‘mommy instinct’), anecdotal accounts, cherry-picked articles (most often either seriously methodolically flawed or which do not in fact support their claims–see the Reiki on Dogs thread for a sterling example), individual testimonies (“After surgery and chemo I tried coffee enemas, and my cancer went away! Obviously it could only have been the coffee enemas!”), and outright lies (“MMS isn’t bleach!”)
All seasoned with a heaping serving of paranoid conspiracy theory (“It’s a plot to reduce the world population!”, “You’re all minions of big pharma!”)
You want us to be as uncritical of alt med claims as we are of science based medicine ‘s claims? Then do the work: secure the funding, establish proof of principle, design the studies, run the trials, publish the results, and convince us.
Really–we’d absolutely love it if we were wrong, you were right and there’s safe and effective cures for cancer and other diseases all wrapped up and ready to go.
Wishing won’t make it so. Insistence won’t make it so. It isn’t religion: fervor isn’t enough.
You want us to be as uncritical of alt med claims as we are of science based medicine ‘s claims? Then do the work: secure the funding, establish proof of principle, design the studies, run the trials, publish the results, and convince us.
Really–we’d absolutely love it if we were wrong, you were right and there’s safe and effective cures for cancer and other diseases all wrapped up and ready to go.
Wishing won’t make it so. Insistence won’t make it so. It isn’t religion: fervor isn’t enough.
But please keep entertaining us with your pathtetic attempts at ad hominem. I do need a good laugh, and you seem like the perfect dunce to provide some.
What’s ironic is that the Protocel customers are the ones who are in a cult, believing the word of some coal miner who thought up this hotplate garbage in a dream provided by a god. All that Jesus crap and “praise god who saw fit to heal me” on those websites and the belief that a god is working to heal patients is more cultlike than anything I’ve ever seen on RI.
Leah shows no respect toward Orac and the many years of study he devoted to become a surgeon and researcher, then all the years he’s spent trying to save lives. What a scumbag, no matter what name she uses.
And what the hell is the chemical community? Does she mean Big Pharma?
Does this help?
Somebody left an italics HTML tag open and now all the comments are in italics. Let’s see if I can fix that . Testing…
Let me try fixing it another way. I think this might work.
The italic tag was closed but didn’t work. Counterintuitive, but this might work Or perhaps not.
Maybe Protocel can cure italics? Or some MMS might work? I already tried some laetrile, so now I’m injecting baking soda into the internet. Anyone got any antineoplastons?
@Marc Stephens Is Insane
“Leah shows no respect toward Orac and the many years of study he devoted to become a surgeon and researcher, then all the years he’s spent trying to save lives. What a scumbag, no matter what name she uses.”
You’ve got to be kidding. All chemical school does is deconstruct common sense. MDs are still being taught that vitamins and nutrition are quackery. The zero tolerance for opposition on RI is also a joke.
Kat had a PETscan. Because her husband’s GP advised her to try Protocel and it happened to work for her, she can start planning her life instead of her funeral.
For those of you who are “chemo survivors”, if you keep relying on Orac’s blogs as your one-stop source of information about alternative medicine, he’ll drive you to an early grave. I’m just sayin’ don’t be so quick to drink his Kool-aid information. You don’t want to be a victim of The Orac Massacre.
I somehow doubt that. I’d be more inclined to think that they are taught that vitamins and nutrition are essential to good health, but they are not cure-alls that can treat every ailment under the sun.
What zero tolerance? I’ve seen lots of asking for evidence and none provided. See. You have an opportunity here to change people’s minds. All it takes is posting links to good-quality studies showing that Protocel is a) effective and b) safe. Instead, all we get are anecdotes, like this:
So, what’s it going to be? Are you going to actually show us decent evidence that it works and is safe, or are you going to just keep slinging insults and stories around?
Just one point (I have to resist picking apart every line that Leah crapped out of her keyboard).
Leah, you sneer at the word chemical. I presume you use it in the context of Big Pharma. Chemicals are bad, mkay. So what the hell is Protecel? Certainly not nasty chemicals, oh no.
I will never believe a word you say if you insist on trying to convince us that a real, medical doctor (you wrote GP) advised someone to try Protocel.
And vitamins and nutrition are not medicine. They have never cured anyone of anything.
Leah: Please provide corroboration for your claim that MD’s are being taught that nutrition is quackery. That has not been my experience as a patient since about 1989.
Except that they have. Specifically, vitamin deficiencies (eg, scurvy) and malnutrition. But they generally don’t do very well against acute disorders, especially those with external causes (eg, infectious disease). They are a “general health” thing, rather than a treatment for disease.
@Marc Stephens Is Insane
Leah: Why does the evil, evil Orac allow you to post here? Surely, he must be terrified that your mighty blasts of truth will destroy his whole world – and yet here your posts are, while alt-med sites routinely censor any opponents who might scare off the marks. It’s an interesting pattern, isn’t it?
Yes, I was going to add another note saying “except malnutrtion” or vitamin deficiencies. Obviously vitamins and/or nutrition cannot cure cancer, AIDS, autism or other illnesses, which is what Leah and many alties are implying. Emphasis on the “lying” syllable.
I’m not against prescription drugs. I’m against drugs that are don’t work and come with a long list of dangerous side effects.
Vitamins and nutrition are medicines. You can’t just swallow a bunch of pills everyday and hope for the best. What’s wrong with you people?
@Leah – when you claim that nutrition and vitamins can cure all, yes, that’s quackery. But, my doctor has advised good nutrition and supplements (when needed), along with exercise since I started seeing him.
You have this very biased view of the medical professional, because you believe in the “cure-all” which doesn’t exist. If you actually spoke to a real doctor, I believe you’d find that reality if very different than your own set of very clouded beliefs.
Yet, here you are cheerleading for Protocel. Of course, my assessment may be incorrect. All you need to do is show me evidence to the contrary.
All drugs have side effects, some potentially dangerous. The trick is in balancing the risks vs. the benefits. For someone without cancer, taking a cancer drug would be stupid: no benefit, lots of risks. For someone with cancer, there is risk, but greater benefit (usually…depends on the value they place on living vs. dying).
So you’d not object to them being regulated like medicines, then, instead of dietary supplements?
Which drugs are those, then, and what evidence demonstrates that they don’t work. Be as specific as possible.
As for “long lists of dangerouse side effects”, recall that it ‘s not a question of “Are their side effects?” but “Is the potential risk greater than the ptoential beneift?”
Consider steroids, for example: lots of frequent and nasty side effects associated with long term use. Risk versus benefit clearly argues you they shouldn’t be prescribed trivially, e.g. to improve athletic performance.
On the other hand, if you’re thinking you might just want to hang on to that newly transplanted heart, liver or kidney for a while…
Long will be remembered the time JGC accidentally italicized the Internet.
test test test
That used to happen pretty frequently over at Bad Astronomy.
testtest test test
Leah, Protocel girl isn’t real. She/he is following a clever marketing trick. Go on a forum where there are potential customers. Create a userID, a diagnosis and a sympathetic first post. Spend a little time drawing people in with your story then start proclaiming your progress. None of which anyone can verify. Slip in a website address and hope the mods dont catch you, or perhaps don’t care. At one point when the thread was fading she/he bumped it up again by whining she didn’t understand why no one seemed interested to follow her.
The cheering squad came back. I’m sure they have all found their way to a Protocel marketing site. Amway could learn from these people or perhaps they already have.
@Redloh: It’s not important if Leah is real or not. All we care about is if she can prove what she says. She can’t. All she has is anecdotes. If people come to RI, read the whole thread and STILL spend their money on the quackery….well, I feel sorry for them. But adults can do as they wish, even if it’s not an intelligent choice.
dang, my attempt at killing the italic thread failed. Guess we’ll have to wait for Orac to fix it.
I love the people who claim we are brainwashed, undissenting, etc. They’ve obviously never been around when PC vs Mac is discussed…..
You owe me a new irony meter.
What you’ve got is <i><b><i /></b>. The (autogenerated?) third tag is the problem; nonvoid tags aren’t self-closing, so this is treated as yet another open ital.
Kat is not some random poster. She has been a BCO member since 2010. Go back and read her posts.
What’s great is her MO wants to continue to track her progress. Unlike a certain breast surgeon whose name rhymes with “quack”, Kat’s MO is at least keeping an open mind and is not in denial, pretending that Protocel doesn’t work.
The whole attempt to kill the italics (especially with MMS, laetrile, baking soda and antineoplastons) gave me the best laugh all day!
@Leah – one thing I learned years ago with the internet is that people can be whomever they want and do whatever they want. Once I was diagnosed with a difficult to treat and disabling illness, Mr Woo was on the internet buying every cure he could find. Thank goodness that I got him to at least slow down after awhile.
It isn’t wrong to ask for studies. Studies are a good thing. Human beings have issues with being easily gullible. You don’t want hope and suggestibility playing a part in results. That is what double-blinding is all about.
I know this is an anecdote, but you love them, so, maybe you will be swayed. A woman with my illness launched her own radio show, etc., pushing an alkaline, juicing/veggie smoothie diet as a cure for our illness. She had a FB page that she ended up deleting when she realized she got too many questions on it – she was honest about going to bed three days here, four days there because she was too sick to function. People had trouble believing her juicing/smoothie diet was making her better if she was sick so much.
Long story short, that was two years ago. Not only did it not cure her; her daughter, who I’m sure was also converted to her ultimately perfectly healthy lifestyle, died of cancer. She no longer pushes that “cure” for anyone. Instead she recommends a much more reasonable, science-based diet that includes meats that are grass-fed, free range chicken/eggs, etc., avoiding large quantities of processed foods, adding moderate exercise, and never giving up trying various treatment modalities and maintaining hope. I am not sure if she still does her internet radio show or not. If she does, I hope it reflects a similar amount of moderation now.
When I was a child I was taught never to trust anyone who said they could cure anything, or who told me I could get tons of money only working a few hours a week, etc. There is no product on earth that will cure all diseases. Our bodies don’t work that way. There’s also no entry-level job on earth that has no requirements for education, etc., where you can walk in and make $200,000/year working 10 hours a week.
Some of us abandon wishful thinking and the strange beliefs as we grow up. It’s better to be in the real world in have hope that has percentages and experience behind it than chasing a fantasy that does nothing for us.
*…to be in the real world and have hope that has…
I’ve been a lurker @ BCO for a while (I’m a BC patient), and one here for a shorter period.
While I am grateful for some of the information I’ve found on BCO, I am repulsed by the altie forums, by the way they are (not) managed, and by the viciousness and immaturity of many of the regulars. Black-cat, thenewme, rose, and others: I came here, not to BCO, to say thank you. Black-cat, you confirmed much of what I suspected some of the backstories and identities are. And I really enjoyed your “how-to-be-a-quack” post.
Orac, thank you for your insolence and your care, and for providing room for us.
Now there’s another altie on BCO going to start Protocel and PawPaw since her previous alternative treatment has caused more positive lymph nodes. Surgery anyone? How stupid can some people be. If she had had chemo in the first place she probably wouldn’t be in this situation.
Leah – “MDs are still being taught that vitamins and nutrition are quackery”
My onc must be an alternative doc since he makes me take supplements.
Anybody know what happenend to Chillipad2, the black salve lady? I would ask on the other site but might be accused of being anti-alternative for even asking. I think the “tumors” that were coming out were just scabs from injury from the black stuff, and the Juices oozing were just pus from the inflammation/infection with the black stuff. If I wrote that, I would be accused of being a troll.
I have been skeptical of Protocel lady from the getgo. All anybody but Kat knows is that she said she measured her nodes and they decreased in size and that she had a really great CT scan Oh and she said her onc is impressed.
Now when my boys were teenagers I used to tell them that girls they met on the internet could be 40 year old men. Anybody can SAY what they want.
Where is the proof?
As for MDs and nutrition, in the last five years 3 doctors have given me nutritional advice. That is met with skepticism by the alties on bco but Kat’s magical shrinking lumps are not. Go figure.
Questions were being asked about whether this person would submit this stuff she called tumors falling off her body to a pathologist through the onc she claimed was monitoring her but who she ultimately said she was too tired to see anymore.
As with many of these types suddenly she feels the questions amount to being bullied and moves on to greener pastures.
I believe this person was a front for the website she posted. A website selling black salve. I think it was in Indonesia.
I don’t think Chilli was fake – she was in a terrible place after having gone the alternative route – I guess she had to try something as conventional docs offer her no hope. She is a great example of how alternatives DO NOT work. She had been posting for a long time before she started talking about the Black Salve.
Chilli is real I exchanged pms with her. She was way too detailed and accurate not to be. I knew her from impositive’s “cancer is a fungas” thread two years ago. She did try to warn impositive and wornoutmom of what happened to hear when she tried alternatives. I was not aware at the time she was an MLMer and had a website announcing how she cured herself with natural methods. I felt bad for lettng her know that black salve was a scam but it had to be done. I felt a moral obligation to do so. So Leah, aka JoyLiesWithin, yes you were right on that assumtion of me. You, on the other hand seem to be morally and ethically bankrupt. What kind of person would cheer a stage one person on not to get evidence based medicine over some pipe dream, and not only hide the fact that this said woman progressed to stage four, but would actually make a statement on the BCO atie forum that this women is doing just fine and dandy. Especially when this women iis very sick and in trouble. I would think a reasonable and rational person at this point would intervene and help her. You, however ignored her (giving her a shout out on BCO when I already made this clear dosent count) This makes you look like a real dirtbag. I suggest you take that finger you are pointing and point it right back at yourself. What’s that sayiny? For every finger you point there are 3 pointing right back at you. I would think a reasonable and rational person would do a 180 after that one experience and would not only start looking at evidenced based treatment but trying to counsel her abandoned friend on said treatment ESPECIALLY if SHE, herself, had evidence based treatment that put her cancer in remission. But you are not a reasonable and rationable person are you?
Furthermore. you continue to be the residient tone troll on the altie boards of BCO doing everything in your power to bash evidenced based medicine and prove alternative works. IMHO, you are a moral degenerate.
Do you see yourself as a soldier in the health freedom war. Do you rationalize that your ex buddy impositive, wornoutmom, and chilli are all acceptable casualties of this war? Please tell me, because trying to figure this out has kept me awake at night.
@Rosemary, just so you know, Protocel is not for those who are her2 +. You posted pictures of yourself on BCO. I have to be honest, you look really pasty and in poor shape. That’s probably why no one believes you were given advice about nutrition from your doctors. The truth is your cardiologist and oncologist referred you to a dietitian after your treatments. However, if you had a naturopathic doctor advising you throughout your treatments, your body wouldn’t be such a wreck now and your treatments would not have nearly killed you. But noooooo, Orac said, “naturopathic doctors are just quacks”, and being the loyal follower that you are, you believed him.
@Redloh, it’s too bad Chilli left. If black-cat did not have a such a horrible melt down after Chilli posted about the success she was having with the black slave protocol, we’d know how she is doing today. I just hope and pray that black-cat didn’t push her off the edge and she is still alive.
@AFriend, the person you are referring to was not a good candidate for chemo. She has a neurological condition.
The vast majority of the women who turn to alternative cancer treatments do so because either 1) surgery alone is enough and they have found safer options, 2) conventional medicine has failed them, 3) another medical condition is stopping them from doing chemotherapy and/or radiation, or 4) they are terrified that conventional medicines will take their lives. Too add, the overwhelming number of distressing discussions about vomiting, bloody teeth, uterine cancer, fibroids, mouth sores, loss of libido, hearing loss, severe depression, neuropathy, heart attacks etc. on BCO’s conventional medicine threads is enough to scare the dickens out of anyone and send them running to the alternative forum, so members are truly grateful it’s available. It’s mainly those who work in the medical field, however, who wish it would be torn down. They hate the “alties”, the same way the devil hates holy water. Eventually they’ll wake up and figure out that we are not the enemy.
@black-cat , wornoutmom has posted that her alt treaments are working like a charm. You’ve seen her videos. She looks amazing. Your missinformation is getting so old and tired. (((((YAWN)))))
Leah: you still haven’t explained why the pro-health blogs allow “alties” to post here.
Wornoutmom is stage 4 and getting Herceptin and Zometa before she visits that crazy cocaine addicted quack, Thomas Lodi. The evidence based medicine that she is taking cancels out any claim for the “alternative cure”. She hasen’t updated her blog in a month. It’s really sad for us to see that but you in your infinite wisdom just know she’s cured.
Leah @July 13, 9:39 pm
There’s no preview function here. That means you need to proof read for yourself.
I am blessed, obviously. My aunt is at this point a three-year survivor of breast cancer after conventional therapy. Her husband is a four-year-survivor of a more aggressive prostate cancer after conventional therapy. My mother-in-law is an almost two-year survivor of lymphoma after conventional therapy, and on the non-survivor side where I knew a lot about their therapies, Mr Woo’s father survived more than ten years with treatment after a leukemia diagnosis (he decided to end treatment when his disease got too bad) and a good friend of mine from church with a particularly nasty type of prostate cancer (had a perfectly normal PSA screening two months earlier, then suddenly was very sick and they found advanced prostate cancer with bone mets and a very high PSA number) lived for two years after a stage-IV diagnosis with no surgery.
They all used scientifically sound, evidence-based treatments. And though they had their bad days (for my mother-in-law, the first two days after each treatment; when they did further tests on her cancer it wouldn’t respond to the newer monoclonal antibody treatments so they had to use older types of chemo; I was very disappointed for her), most were grateful for the time they got and knowing that there was evidence as to how likely they were to have the treatment work and that there was an educated person watching their treatment, their bodies’ reactions and adjusting and changing the treatment as necessary to give them the best chance they could.
I am probably also lucky to have a chronic, difficult to treat illness and have been around with it long enough to know that usually the people who are most vocal are also the ones who are most miserable. You don’t “see” the people who are coping because they are too busy coping and living life to complain about how miserable they are on the internet. People newly diagnosed or newly starting treatment will go to support forums to ask questions and discuss their problems to get insight on treatments they could add to treat bad side effects, reactions, etc. Also to get good information from other patients on other treatments they might not have heard of.
Sadly, “alties” tend to not just say, “this is another treatment, discuss it with your doctor and see if it is compatible or an alternative. No, they say things like, “this treatment actually cures a lot of cancers, but your doctor doesn’t want you to know about it because big pharma actually owns them and if it were to compete with them it would drive them out of business” if they are on the “conspiracy” side of life, or “this treatment actually cures a lot of cancers, but your doctor was never taught about it in medical school because medical school curricula are written by drug companies to sell their products” – it makes the doctors at least sound a bit nicer – then they’re just uninformed idiots and not intentionally poisoning and killing every patient they come in contact with when the “cure” has been readily available all this time.
Yes, people who believe in evidence, people who believe in science-based medicine, will challenge anything that has nothing that is known to affect any type of treatment for anything. I’m also known to challenge other things, like DH’s suggestion that we buy a magnetic water softener since it won’t use salt. Nothing I know suggests that magnetic fields will change the structure of water and/or affect whether or not it is “hard” or “soft.”
Love the “same way the devil hates holy water” – the deeper implications that the people who insist on treatments that are proven to work are evil and the people insisting that rubbing black salve that has been known to melt off people’s noses on a cancer patient’s breasts will draw out and kill the cancer are saints.
I’m neither evil nor sainted. I am, however, someone who gets frustrated watching unscrupulous people prey on the fear of patients, take their money and leave them sicker than they were when they started. People at least deserve to have informed, realistic consent and a treatment that has a chance to help them provided by a provider who understands the human body, disease and the way the treatment works.
@black-cat, please read carefully and get your facts straight. wornoutmom had IPT and Herceptin. Go back and read her thread and blog. Be happy for her. She is doing great. Dr, Lodi cleaned up the mess conventional medicine left behind.
Apr 28, 2012 01:51 PM, by wornoutmom
“As those who have followed me know I had horrible health care that left me riddled with fear. After being misdiagnoed I still tried surgery with my providers which was a disaster. 3 weeks after surgery my lump returned. I was told it was scar tissue. I had so many mistakes on my case it lead to an 8 page complaint letter of these mistakes. I literally had to take an anti-anxiety medication just to walk through the doors. I can’t go into specifics at this time. I plan to fully do this once the matter is resolved. So fast forward and low and behold that lump was a reoccurance. My lump was in the chest wall which I have since learned from other patients with the same lump there are doctors who refuse to perform sugery without treatment first as it is to hard to get clear margins. This is why I think my biggest mistake given my type of tumor was to have surgery. I spent more than two years on birth control pills with cancer and it only spread to 3A. A few months later I saw the results of my surgery.
After several complaints I finally got a PET scan. I had a reoccuance in the exact same spot which I believe was the “scar tissue”. I had a tumor on my spine, innumerable bone mets, widespread lymph nodes, and in one month with tykerb and tamoxifen it had traveled to my liver. Due to fear I only trusted them to prescribe pills. I arrived at my clinic in Sept 1 and received care until the end of Dec. I was on a scaled down plan due to finances. On Dec 8th I had a follow up PET scan. With a full head of hair and no suffering or effects it revealed that all my lymph nodes were clear, both tumors were gone, the liver was clear, and a significant decrease in my bone mets! NO sufferering,…”
Now I did it. I didn’t close blockquote!
Did it work?
@Leah – wornoutmom is probably doing well because of the herceptin, nothing else. I do know other ladies whose mets have responded just as well and are NED from herceptin.
and if she had had the proper treatment in the first place, she probably wouldn’t have ended up stage IV
The last time wornoutmom posted on her blog was may 2. She is getting Herceptin and Zometa at a real medical clinic with real physicians. Afterwards she goes to Lodi’s “Oasis of Hope” for IPT, Ozone therapy and vitamin C infusions.
She can no longer afford Vitamin C infusions so she must resort to buying cheaper compounded sublingual vitamin C from the clinic. She has very painful ulcers in her mouth from this. The infusions were $1,000 a week.
You neglected to include this statement from her on that pet scan:
“Next he explained that my bones still had to many spots to count but that there was a significant decrease in the amount of cancer cells. He explained that they are harder to get to than tumors as they are out in the open and it would take a little more time.”
You and I get 2 different meanings from her blog. I see a 37 year old woman with a young family that may be stage four because she waited too long to get treatment. It’s impossible to say. She has young childen and is really sick now. Cancer has broken one of the vertebrae in her back and she is in a lot of pain. She regrets that she cannot hold her child. She thinks that she has failed as a mother because she can not properly care for her children.
I was going to write more but it’s time to step away from the computer. It took me 3 tries even to get through her blog.
Oh, I would not be dissing on anyone’s looks chubby.
I have to add that wornoutmom has not failed as a mother. Being sick is not her fault. She did not do anything to cause this her breast cancer. Just had to come back and write that.
I hit the submit button too soon. From what I read, wornoutmom is a superb mother. Bad mothers don’t worry about failing their children.
I’m sorry black-cat and motheroffoursons. If wornoutmom had relied on conventional treatments alone, her children would have no mom and she’d just be a statistic.
Also, re-read her posts, watch her videos, and stop seeing only what you want to see. Your posts make no sense at all.
Black-cat, you can’t just pull figures out your bum bum. Vitamin C infusions do not cost $1000 per week.
Wornoutmom is doing great and Dr.Lodi is an angel for doing what he does best. That’s cleaning up the train wreck that breast surgeons and oncologists leave behind.
This thread is getting silly and I have work to do. Thanks Orac for letting me post on RI. Take care black-cat and be good to yourself and others. I’m out.
I’ll take the under.
By the way, I noticed the italic thing happen at Dr. Novella’s blog, Neurologica:
Is Leah talking about Thomas Lodi? The homeopath? The cokehead? the doctor who threatens bloggers? The guy who uses dangerous and useless insulin treatments? The guy who had his medical license stripped away in Nevada? This Dr. Lodi?
yep, the one and only