Poor Andy Wakefield.
Beginning in the late 1990s until around six years ago, Andy was the premiere “vaccine skeptic” in the world. His 1998 case series published in The Lancet linking bowel problems in autistic children to the measles vaccine, the one where in the paper itself he was careful not to blame the MMR vaccine for autism but elsewhere was not so shy, launched a campaign of fear and loathing for the MMR vaccine that continues to this day. In his heyday, Wakefield was quite the figure, showing up on the media everywhere, treated with undeserved respect by much of the tabloid press and downright reverence by the antivaccine movement. (Indeed, Age of Autism founder J.B. Handley once famously referred to Wakefield as our “Nelson Mandela and Jesus Christ rolled up into one.” Of course, thanks largely to the efforts of Brian Deer, the wheels came off a five years ago. That year, Wakefield lost his license to practice and his (in)famous case series in The Lancet was retracted, as it had been demonstrated rather conclusively that Wakefield had committed scientific fraud in that study. Even the antivaccine quack mill Thoughtful House, where Wakefield had reigned supreme as chief antivaccine autism quack couldn’t take it any more, and its board of directors rather unceremoniously gave him the boot.
Of couse, since then, Wakefield has done pretty well for himself, remaining a figurehead adored by credulous antivaccine activists, a veritable hero. He was still flown to antivaccine conferences in nice hotels in places like Jamaica. He still manages to live quite a comfortable lifestyle, in part thanks to the generosity of of the deep pockets behind the antivaccine movement, as reported by CNN, in part thanks to his Strategic Autism Initiative. Another times, he exploited the tragedy of the murder of an autistic boy, Alex Spourdalakis, in a most shameful fashion.
So, two days ago, when I saw this story, I couldn’t believe it:
Andrew Wakefield, the British researcher who was made famous by his 1998 study that linked autism to a childhood vaccine, is coming to Salem next month to testify before the Legislature, a health care lobbyist confirmed Tuesday.
The Senate Committee on Health Care is exploring a bill, sponsored by Sen. Elizabeth Steiner Hayward, D-Beaverton, that would ban parents from claiming nonmedical exemptions from their children’s school immunizations.
By the time I saw the story, it was too late to blog about it for yesterday; so I put it in the hopper for today. However, two days ago, I did blog about the Oregon bill to which the article refers. The bill, SB442, was originally intended to clarify the procedure for parents to get non-medical exemptions to school vaccine mandates. However, in the wake of the Disneyland measles outbreak consideration was being given to amending the bill to eliminate non-medical exemptions altogether. As I pointed out, the very fact that a state like Oregon, which is a hotbed of antivaccine activity (J. B. Handley, for instance, lives there) would even consider such a bill, is a sea change in attitude in the wake of continuing measles outbreaks.
Of course, antivaccine activists weren’t going to take this lying down, and they didn’t. J.B. Handley, for instance, submitted testimony to the Oregon Senate Committee on Health Care on February 18. Not surprisingly, he pulled out the same old tropes that I’ve seen him using over the decade that I’ve been blogging and since I first encountered him: “too many too soon“; argument by package insert; the pharma shill gambit; and, of course, the antivaccine dog whistle that ties vaccine “choice” to parental rights and freedom.
Still, I couldn’t understand why on earth anyone would think that tarting up old, discredited Andy Wakefield, flying him up to Oregon, and plopping him in front of the Senate Committee on Health Care would serve the cause of “vaccine choice.” I mean, seriously. Is there any “vaccine skeptic” currently more discredited than Andrew Wakefield in the mind of the public? Sure, there are actually more despicable antivaccinationists, but few people have heard of them. Wakefield, on the other hand, is famous, but he’s famous because he’s a discredited fraud who did antivaccine research for money. Brian Deer showed us that. And there are many victims. I know that Wakefield’s visit was arranged by the Oregon Chiropractic Association, but I didn’t think that even chiropractors were so deluded to think that a discredited fraud like Wakefield would help their case. In fact, when I first heard of the story, I was almost happy. The more quacks and cranks antivaccinationists trotted in front of the committee, the better. What better way for them to shoot themselves in the foot, to self-immolate? I was even thinking of suggesting more cranks to testify, such as Mark and David Geier or Christopher Shaw. Heck, why not get Sharyl Attkisson?
Oh, wait. I had heard it through the grapevine that others scheduled to testify included Tetyana Obukhanyeh, PhD., and Lucija Tomljenovic, PhD.
Sadly, my anticipation of the spectacle of Andrew Wakefield testifying was not to be. Yesterday, many of you sent my way this story:
Oregon legislators have canceled a meeting to discuss a bill that would eliminate nonmedical exemptions from Oregon’s school immunization law, after it became clear that a controversial vaccine researcher who linked the measles, mumps, rubella vaccine with autism was planning to testify.
The Statesman Journal reported Tuesday that Andrew Wakefield, whose 1998 study was retracted from The Lancet and refuted by subsequent studies, was planning a trip to Salem to testify against Senate Bill 442.
He said in a phone interview on Wednesday that he objected to allegations made by Sen. Elizabeth Steiner Hayward, the bill’s sponsor, that he committed scientific fraud in his research.
Sen. Laurie Monnes Anderson, D-Gresham, chairwoman of the Senate health care committee, said she canceled the March 9 informational meeting because she felt the first public hearing, on Feb. 18, provided enough information.
Poor, poor pitiful Andy! He’s so toxic that the very mention of his potentially showing up to testify can shut down a legislative committee informational meeting. I don’t believe it for a minute when Anderson claimed:
Monnes Anderson said her decision did not have anything to do with Wakefield’s intentions to testify.
The March 9 meeting will only take invited testimony from constitutional law experts who will weigh in on the legality of SB 442, she said. During a work session, committee members can tweak the bill as well as vote on it.
Come on. Does Anderson really think her constituents are that stupid? Maybe she does. In any case, I’m torn by this decision. On the one hand, it would have been grand entertainment to see Andy trotted out in front of the committee to spew his usual brand of antivaccine misinformation, and I bet that he would not have been particularly impressive, old fraudster that Deer showed him to be. In fact, I rather suspect he would have inadvertently helped the cause of eliminating non-medical exemptions in Oregon. After all, what better weapon would those supporting the bill have than to be able to attach the name of someone as disreputable as Andrew Wakefield to opposition to SB442? On the other hand, there would have been a chance that letting him testify would have actually elevated him, made him less disreputable. In any event, my guess is that Anderson saw that letting Wakefield testify would turn her committee’s “informational event” into a media circus. No, strike that. It would have turned it into a circus. So she wisely canceled, because Wakefield is just that toxic.
My only consolation in this is that antivaccinationists seem to be their own worst enemies. As I said before, anyone with an ounce of political savvy would have realized that letting someone like Andrew Wakefield testify, someone who is (1) famous, (2) discredited, and (3) highly disreputable, testify is the same thing as putting his face on the opposition. There’s no way this could have ended well for antivaccinationists. In fact, the chiropractors and antivaccine “health freedom” types who pushed to get Wakefield on the list of people giving testimony should thank Monnes Anderson profusely for saving themelves from themselves.
They won’t, of course, They are just that deluded as to believe that having Wakefield’s chance to testify yanked hurt them. But, hey, according to news reports, Wakefield wants to hold a town hall meeting in Portland. Somehow, I doubt that will go very well, either. After all, remember what happened the last time Wakefield tried to have a “town hall” meeting to protest to what he viewed as a pro-vaccine provocation. “Pitiful” doesn’t begin to describe it.
776 replies on “Poor, poor pitiful Andy (Wakefield): Dissed again, this time by the Oregon Senate Committee on Health Care”
He was invited by Oregon Chiropractors – just more evidence of how anti-science (and anti-vaccine) they are.
A. Andrew Wakefield can appear reasonable and convincing to those who do not know his record, as long as he doesn’t let himself go, as in the Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot video. But he has that record, that’s very easy to point to.
B. I hope Oregon legislators remember, nonetheless, that these people were offering, as their main witness, a man found guilty of serious ethical violations with a documented history of less-than-dubious credibility.
I’m actually shocked that J.B. Handley was allowed to testify. This is someone who has no scientific credentials to speak of and has often been laughably wrong about vaccines, And that doesn’t even get into his very public bullying (including threats of legal action) against anyone who disagrees with him.
There’s nothing in J.B.’s testimony that you couldn’t get from spending a half-hour perusing any anti-vax website, and the Oregon Senate, by allowing Handley to address them, elevated him to someone with credibility to speak on the topic. I find that almost as offensive as Andy Wakefield nearly getting to speak in front of them.
A legislative hearing isn’t a scientific forum. One of its appropriate goals is to allow affected citizens to voice their point of view. Mr. Handley is an affected citizen, and letting him testify was the right thing.
The committee treating him as a scientific source would be an error, and it’s more than fair to point out the problems in his claims, but of all forums, a legislative policy making process is one that should be open and inclusive in hearing views. However extreme and unfounded.
Well, whilst there might be no debate scientifically, there clearly is politically. By not having the various anti-vax proponents testify surely there is the danger of these people asserting that their voice wasn’t heard and generally feeding into their persecution complex.
Much better would have been a public detailed examination of Wakkers – unless these legislaors though tthey wern’t up to it!
Oregon seems poised to become the go-to state for quackery. I’m interested but not entirely surprised to see chiropractors stirring the pot on this. Does anyone know if there are any national chiro organizations with position statements on vaccines?
Dorit it correct. Legislative hearings serve the function of allowing the public to have a say on matters that affect them. Not all testimony is created equally nor does it have equal impact. Legislators are savvy to those offering testimony with an axe to grind.
There is this collections of positions.
“Resolved, that the American Chiropractic Association (ACA) recognize and advise the public that:
Since the scientific community acknowledges that the use of vaccines is not without risk, the American Chiropractic Association supports each individual’s right to freedom of choice in his/her own health care based on an informed awareness of the benefits and possible adverse effects of vaccination. The ACA is supportive of a conscience clause or waiver in compulsory vaccination laws thereby maintaining an individual’s right to freedom of choice in health care matters and providing an alternative elective course of action regarding vaccination. (Ratified by the House of Delegates, July 1993, Revised and Ratified June 1998).”
Maybe he should threaten a defamation suit instead.
@Narad: he still might.
Narad and Dorit:
Seriously- what else does he have?
I mean other than the estate, the entourage and the legion of adoring acolytes?
Maybe money in the bank, stocks, bonds,..
Perhaps Wakefield can establish a new “Center for Legislative Integrity” and use the contributions that he solicits from his adoring fans to pay himself a salary as its director.
Well, he currently doesn’t have any outstanding lawsuits to solicit money, and he’s been rather unsuccessful in raising funds for his documentaries….I have no idea what he has left up his sleeve.
Well, there’s the ORI complaint, which has likely been filed appropriately.
Sen. Laurie Monnes Anderson, D-Gresham, chairwoman of the Senate health care committee, said she canceled the March 9 informational meeting because she felt the first public hearing, on Feb. 18, provided enough information.
Do we know Sen. Anderson’s views on the subject? IOW, is she opposed to the bill and thought (likely correctly) that having Wakefield testify would strengthen the pro side? Or does she favor the bill, and suspect that some of her fellow senators might fall for Wakefield’s schtik? Gresham is in the Portland area, and IIRC Portland is an anti-vax hotbed, but I don’t know if Gresham is one of the suburbs that attracts well-off granola types (as Marin County does in the Bay Area).
Eric, like I said elsewhere, Andy may be our un-intentional ally- at least to the general public’s ear- what he says and his presence alone- may strengthen the SB position.
Is it realistic at this point for Wakefield complain about allegations of fraud, as if the fraudulent nature of the Lancet publication had not been demonstrated?
Such sessions are generally open to the public. Were others denied their chance to speak for 3 minutes because this session was cancelled on account of Wakefield? And how much damage could Wakefield have done when lumped in with dozens of other speakers, all getting the same allotted time?
But now…Surely Wakefield and his supporters are going to make a lot of hay about cancelling this session because of him — it is mana from heaven for the anti-vaxers. Especially in Portland where Wakefield townhall meetings are being planned by the chiros.
Orac. it seems, will never learn…
She’s a cosponsor.
No. It’s basically just a big, bland place with no real distinguishing characteristics at all. The only good thing about it is that it’s on a MAX line.
I heard Wakefield speak at a medical postgraduate meeting.
He may be deluded and a fraud; he had been successful because he is a skilled and persuasive rhetoritian. Even if you are very knowledgeable and aware of the falsity off his arguments he’ll beat you in a debate unless you’re also a skilled debater. Don’t underestimate him. He’s too dangerous to dismiss lightly.
He appears to have submitted written testimony (PDF, pp. 36–43, although he himself seems to have been unable to put together a PDF, hence the scan).
In repeatedly using the phrase “the free world,” he fails to document his claims; I’ve already posted the Israeli schedule, for example – he changes how he “counts” as convenient.
It’s a small committee, and my sense from some brief email communications with several members is that most if not all are favorable to the bill.
I’m not sure where the suggestion to have an additional public input session on vaccine safety information originated, but it seems that they received enough feedback to realize that it was a counterproductive idea. The work session on March 9 will now only deal with constitutionality of the bill, and the only speakers will be the invited contributors with Con Law expertise.
SB 442 not only proposes to end non-medical exemptions, but also seeks to clarify the definition of what medical conditions qualify for exemptions. This last bit is just as important as the first. Right now in Oregon personal exemptions are ridiculously easy to get. One only has to ‘watch’ a video to obtain an exemption certificate, and by ‘watch’, I mean, ‘let it play in the background, give it an occasional prompt until it finishes, and then print out your certificate’. But, even if this option goes away, there are still many ‘vax-choice’ docs afoot, some of whom are already declaring that they will “find a way to get you a medical exemption if that’s what it comes to”.
Thus, it seems particularly important to clarify the kinds of medical conditions that qualify so that these docs can’t just substitute one loophole for another.
Calling Andy Wakefield as your expert witness on vaccination policy is akin to calling Bernie Madoff as your expert witness on financial investments.
My only hope when I saw that article was that some of the local Oregonian pro-vaccine advocates would provide the lawmakers with the pertinent information on Wakefield so he could provide an hilarious exhibition of hubris as did Dr. Oz when grilled by Sen. Claire McCaskill.
The lawmakers who co-sponsored the bill are well aware of Wakefield’s history–Senator Steiner is the one he’s pissed at for calling his work ‘fraudulent’. Note also that he was not “called him in to testify”. He was summoned by private groups and lobbyists to contribute to continuing public comments for and against the bill during the upcoming Health Committee Work Session. There’s no Q&A there–no ‘grilling’–just an opportunity to read something into the record.
“Well, he currently doesn’t have any outstanding lawsuits to solicit money, and he’s been rather unsuccessful in raising funds for his documentaries”
Don’t be so sure about that. Not all money comes from indigogo (where he failed to raise much money). Recognize any names of wealthy people in this screenshot from “who killed Alex Spourdalakis”?
#4: “A legislative hearing isn’t a scientific forum. One of its appropriate goals is to allow affected citizens to voice their point of view. Mr. Handley is an affected citizen, and letting him testify was the right thing.”
So what was Wakefield’s standing? How is he affected by an Oregon law? What are his scientific credentials to speak knowledgeably about vaccines?
As an aside, has anyone else seen a questionable ad asking “Should children be forced to vaccinate?” from a place called Easy Health Options? Now I don’t know that place from Adam, but it sure sounds susspect. I think Orac needs to look into it and tear it a new one. Anyone else think so?
like a lot of state-level issues, people are using this one to push a national agenda. We went through this even more intensely when we had a GMO labeling initiative on the ballot last November (which failed narrowly). Anti-GMO speakers/debaters from of out of state came on the run for various speaking engagements and debates to support the measure. Even the ‘No on 92’ campaign was run by an out of state org.
Oh, definitely. When right-to-try came to Michigan, many of those who testified were Goldwater Institute flacks flown in from Arizona.
@lucario#28- I’ve been clicking the report as inappropriate option on those.
No way I’d let my kids vaccinate. Well, maybe my daughter-at 6, she can already sew and use scissors so she could probably give a flu shot. But the boy, nope, not on your life.
Next step in Oregon-figure out where this new governor is at on immunizations. The yoga practitioner thing already has me a little nervous.
It won’t stop him and a plethora of other autism quacks speaking here though: http://www.autismone.org/content/conference-membership-registration
These people need to be shut down
Mark my words: Mr. Handley will probably spin this as, “the other side suppressed Andrew Wakefield’s testimony; they were afraid to let him be heard.”
“By not having the various anti-vax proponents testify surely there is the danger of these people asserting that their voice wasn’t heard and generally feeding into their persecution complex.”
“Mr. Handley will probably spin this as, “the other side suppressed Andrew Wakefield’s testimony; they were afraid to let him be heard.”
This is pretty much what we can expect.
A better committee response would have been to reject Wakefield’s appearance, while inviting any non-fraudulent antivax proponent with scientific credentials and published research respected in the medical community to testify.
Then, after an embarrassing period of dead silence, they could get on with their bill.
@ Matt #26
The Dwoskins are friends and major supporters of Bill and Hill. Their influence was probably responsible for Hillary’s little nod to the anti-vaxers in ’08. But with the GOP all lining up for ‘parents rights’ ‘medical choice’ and FREEDUMB, and HRC likening anti-vaxers to flat-earthers on Twitter, the Dwoskins aren’t gonna touch Andy Wakefield with a ten-foot pole. I think they’ll have to cut their sizable contributions to Generation Rescue too. Al Dwoskin probably gets an ambassadorship if he and Claire play nice, and they get blackballed from Washington parties if they don’t.
After the election, the Dwoskins might away with sliding a little cash towards whatever new media-voice RFKJ’s dug up, but with Trace Amounts he’s already scraping the bottom of the filmmaking barrel.
Andy could still find some wing-nut bazillionaire whale, I suppose, but if wanted to pimp the ‘parents rights / vaccine freedom’ take a la Rand Paul, I could find scores of better spokespersons than Andy Wakefield.
We’re way past ‘proving vaccines cause autism’. Vaccines cause everything, because the parents say so. And it doesn’t matter if they’re wrong. They’ve got rights, and it’s none of Big Guvment’s business!. Forget the science frauds. It’s all back to parents’ individual stories from here on out. New anti-vax films will all feature reasonable-seeming, sympathetic and media-genic parents. They’ll have fewer negatives in the Q scores than Jenny McCarthy. If I was working anti-vax PR with funds to buy a new movie, I’d go strictly ‘delayed vax is good but it’s your choice’ on the surface with tons of sub-text dog-whistles. I’d try to enlist Dr. Jay as my ‘medical expert’, and get someone like Mayim Bialik from his Hollywood connections as the star.
First, Brian Deer,
Have you written any news story other than “Andy Wakefield” in the last 5 years?
Please post examples, so I can believe it is true.
“The Statesman Journal reported Tuesday that Andrew Wakefield, whose 1998 study was retracted from The Lancet…”
Could you please explain why the Lancet published Wakefield in the first place?
I’ve never heard THAT explanation.
Brian, have you ever considered visiting Denmark?
It is a great opportunity to fill in your “journalism gap”.
“The Dwoskins are friends and major supporters of Bill and Hill. Their influence was probably responsible for Hillary’s little nod to the anti-vaxers in ’08.”
LOL! Nice try Sadmar. #35
Hillary has bigger fish to fry:
“The Daily News on Tuesday reported that Clinton aides have already scoped out office space in BROOKLYN HEIGHTS, just across the river from Manhattan.”
Isn’t this near the major ANTI-VAX VOTING BLOC I’ve been blogging about?
panacea – I don’t think that’s necessarily a bad thing. Reinforce their biases, validate their inner narrative, and they will react in ways that makes them look even crazier and further diminishes their credibility.
I deleted this a couple of times, knowing that some of those folks probably lurk here, but in all honesty, they couldn’t intentionally moderate their message if their lives depended on it. They are unraveling. Our task now is to pursue an endgame strategy for the eradication of bullshit.
“A. Andrew Wakefield can appear reasonable and convincing to those who do not know his record, as long as he doesn’t let himself go, as in the Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot video. But he has that record, that’s very easy to point to.”
Could you please cite the “record” you refer to?
Some of us do not know what A. Andrew Wakefield’s record is.
Could you please post a link to the “Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot” video? I can’t imagine what that is!
Also there are several unanswered questions addressed to you over on the earlier “Dog whistle” blog.
Expect a “spin” at AoA…but no one cares…except for us lurkers who derive pleasure from the posts and comments at AoA.
The Dwoskin Family Foundation’s spokesperson opines….
“Is There a Vaccine Debate Occurring? It Doesn’t Seem Like It.”
You bet there’s debates occurring in several State legislatures to tighten up/eliminate vaccination exemptions…and more parents are getting involved to support legislators who propose bills to eliminate those exemptions.
P.S. Diane Harper is again cited as one of the developers of the HPV vaccine.
Let me entice you. This could be the news scoop OF THE YEAR. It has drama, treachery, theft, and the health of millions of children at stake, and it is in SCENIC DENMARK. Aren’t you sick of “Wakefield”? The fair city of ATLANTA (remember Scarlet?) Georgia, would fill the streets shouting HOSANNAH! if you aid in the return to them, their not-so-native son and alleged THIEF of over $1 MILLION CDC $$$$$$$$$. He would stand trial, and be brought to justice, and go to a place where he would know if his vaccines actually work.
YOU CAN GET STARTED RIGHT AWAY!
Here are the details:
“OIG Fugitive: Poul Thorsen
From approximately February 2004 until February 2010, Poul Thorsen executed a scheme to steal grant money awarded by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). CDC had awarded grant money to Denmark for research involving infant disabilities, autism, genetic disorders, and fetal alcohol syndrome. CDC awarded the grant to fund studies of the relationship between autism and the exposure to vaccines, the relationship between cerebral palsy and infection during pregnancy, and the relationship between developmental outcomes and fetal alcohol exposure.
Thorsen worked as a visiting scientist at CDC, Division of Birth Defects and Developmental Disabilities, before the grant was awarded.
The initial grant was awarded to the Danish Medical Research Council. In approximately 2007, a second grant was awarded to the Danish Agency for Science, Technology, and Innovation. Both agencies are governmental agencies in Denmark. The research was done by the Aarhaus University and Odense University Hospital in Denmark.
Thorsen allegedly diverted over $1 MILLION of the CDC grant money to his own personal bank account. Thorsen submitted fraudulent invoices on CDC letterhead to medical facilities assisting in the research for reimbursement of work allegedly covered by the grants. The invoices were addressed to Aarhaus University and Sahlgrenska University Hospital. The fact that the invoices were on CDC letterhead made it appear that CDC was requesting the money from Aarhaus University and Sahlgrenska University Hospital although the bank account listed on the invoices belonged to Thorsen.
In April 2011, Thorsen was indicted on 22 counts of Wire Fraud and Money Laundering.
According to bank account records, Thorsen purchased a home in Atlanta, a Harley Davidson motorcycle, an Audi automobile, and a Honda SUV with funds that he received from the CDC grants.
Thorsen is currently in Denmark and is awaiting extradition to the United States.”
Good luck! I see FRONT PAGE headlines in your future…….
CALLING ALL OREGON ANTI-VAXXERS:
This is all you need:
Click on the one with PDF file at top.
“Statement on RISK vs Benefit of Vaccinations by David Satcher, M.D., PH.D.
Assistant Secretary for Health and Surgeon General
U.S. Public Health Service
U.S. Department of Health and Human Services
Before the House Committee on Government Reform
August 3, 1999
…Vaccine approval also REQUIRES the provision of adequate PRODUCT LABELING to allow health care providers to understand the vaccine’s proper use, including its POTENTIAL benefits and RISKS, in order TO COMMUNICATE with patients and PARENTS and to SAFELY deliver the vaccine to the public. Vaccines are also subject to lot release testing and protocol review to further ENSURE their quality.
Although extensive studies are REQUIRED for licensure, post-marketing research and surveillance are necessary to identify SAFETY issues which may only arise or be detected FOLLOWING vaccination of a much larger population. Rare events may not come to light before licensure, or, if noted, the evidence may not be adequate to prove that such events were due to a vaccine. The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS) is a valuable post-marketing tool for just such safety surveillance. I will describe VAERS later in the testimony. In addition, post-marketing STUDIES of a SPECIFIC vaccine are REQUIRED by FDA in order to obtain additional SAFETY or other data. Also, after licensure, MONITORING of the product and of production activities, including periodic facility inspections, MUST CONTINUE as long as the manufacturer holds a LICENSE for the product.
No system is perfect and NO medicine or VACCINE can EVER be GUARANTEED to be 100 percent FREE OF possible side effects or ADVERSE EVENTS, particularly when administered to millions of people. For these reasons, the Department, its constituent agencies (FDA, CDC, NIH, HRSA), the scientific community, and industry strive for continuous improvements in VACCINE SAFETY. Speaking for the Department and its agencies, we WELCOME all constructive input and CRITICISM in this regard….”
NOTE: You can’t have informed consent AND forced vaccination.
ALL VACCINES CARRY RISK.
“In addition, post-marketing STUDIES of a SPECIFIC vaccine are REQUIRED by FDA in order to obtain additional SAFETY or other data.”
Here is what coauthor and WHISTLEBLOWER Dr. William Thompson had to say about one of these studies:
““FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE-AUGUST 27,2014
STATEMENT OF WILLIAM W. THOMPSON, Ph.D., REGARDING THE 2004 ARTICLE EXAMINING THE POSSIBILITY OF A RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN MMR VACCINE AND AUTISM
My name is William Thompson. I am a Senior Scientist with the Centers for Disease Control and
Prevention, where I have worked since 1998.
I regret that my coauthors and I omitted statistically significant information in our 2004 article published in the journal Pediatrics. The omitted data suggested that African American males who received the MMR vaccine before age 36 months were at increased risk for autism. Decisions were made regarding which findings to report after the data were collected, and I believe that the final study protocol was not followed…..
My concern has been the decision to omit relevant findings in a particular study for a particular sub group for a particular vaccine. There have always been recognized risks for vaccination and I believe it is the responsibility of the CDC to properly convey the risks associated with receipt of those vaccines.”
NOTE: NOTHING has been done to investigate this. Thompson has not testified. He sent an estimated 100,000 pages of related CDC documents to Congressman Bill Posey on Sept. 8, 2014. No statement has been made to the public regarding this and the documents have not been made available to the public. Call the House Space, Science, and Technology Committee and demand to know what is in them so you can have informed consent regarding any future vaccinations.
#42 CORRECTION. Google the following:
WHO “Global Manual on Surveillance of Adverse Events Following Immunization”
Click on the one with PDF file at top
Take a tip from Angelina Jolie :
Tell them you won’t vaccinate until ALL children have “safe” vaccines….
And don’t forget,
MISSISSIPPI 99.7 % vaccination coverage
MISSISSIPPI 38% African-American population
MISSISSIPPI 1 in 88- AUTISM rate. A 563% RISE in the number of public school children with autism in the past 11 years.
@ #34 Dangerous Bacon
“while inviting any non-fraudulent antivax proponent with scientific credentials and published research respected in the medical community to testify.”
As opposed to pro-vax scientists who said things like this IN 1966?
“All of this has now changed. With the isolation of the measles virus
and extensive field testing of several potent and effective vaccines, the tools are at hand to eradicate the infection.With the general application of these tools during the coming months, eradication can be achieved in this country in the year 1967.”
Thorsen is working in Denmark. He’s not under arrest, and he won’t be getting extradited to the US anytime soon. Also, charges against him in Denmark were dismissed.
Currently Dr. Thorsen (and he is still a Doctor – unlike Wakefield, his license to practice medicine hasn’t been stripped) is I believe working as a GYN either in Odense or somewhere on Jutland.
@Darwy: I don’t think I knew about Thorsen’s charges being dismissed in Denmark. Do you have a link please?
#46 Thanks for the update Darwy!
Mr. Thorsen is still very much WANTED in Atlanta, Georgia.
The Grand Jury charges have NOT been dropped. Thorsen’s DeKalb County house: http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/2657-Briarlake-Rd-NE-Atlanta-GA-30345/14552734_zpid/ (notice that the 2006 sell date matches the itemized Grand Jury count), cars, and motorcycle have not yet been sold to REPAY the CDC and the citizens of Georgia: The U.S. can put DIPLOMATIC pressure on this case. Thorsen’s CDC reports, paid for by U.S. taxpayers, were used to “defend” vaccine safety. http://www.rescuepost.com/files/thorsen-indictment.pdf
His protocols have been formally questioned. Between his unresolved alleged criminal activity and the admitted scientific fraud of CDC senior scientist, William Thompson, and the SUPRESSION of his released estimated 100,000 pages of CDC documents, IT IS NO WONDER THAT CITIZENS QUESTION VACCINE SAFETY!
Brian Deer: We need you do an investigative report on Poul Thorsen.
WE ARE TIRED OF WAKEFIELD! WE ARE TIRED OF CDC CORRUPTION!
Perhaps this will get you in the mood to visit Denmark….
Atlanta can WANT Thorsen all it wants. He’s not going to be extradited. So, no matter how much you harp on him, he’s not going anywhere.
Apparently they’ve brought new charges against him – forgery.
It’s not double jeopardy (not that that exists in DK anyhow), but I doubt these charges will go any further, it’s been nearly 3 years.
Ah, Toto’s found a new thread to run up and down with his underpants on his head. It is a harmless outlet.
…and I have to mention, should Brian Deer come to Copenhagen, I’d be more than happy to give him the 10dkk tour.
“Here we have Statens Serum Institute, Panum Institute…”
So, is his house just going to sit there until it falls down?
Why would an innocent man FLEE THE COUNTRY?
Is any one living in the Atlanta house?
Regardless, HIS REPUTATION IS RUINED.
“Flee the country”
Oh, you mean he WENT HOME. That’s what people do after they’ve been on a trip. THEY GO HOME.
I would agree his reputation as a researcher is ruined. That’s why he pursued other qualifications, and is now employed with them.
The argument you are making seems to be:
Wakefield is a fraud. He is anti-vaccine.
Thorson is a crook. He is pro vaccine.
What exactly is your argument?
“Statens Serum Institute”
Looks like the Danish version of the CDC. Is the “good old boys” club surrounding the wagons? U.S. citizens take note!
Interestingly, Denmark is now IPV. Doesn’t that conflict with countries using OPV?
Well, NO MORE DANISH COOKIES or Hans Christian Anderson stories for me! And I won’t be visiting the very Little Mermaid until it gets below freezing in a very warm place.
DARWY: “Hey Brian! Here’s D’Beer!”
I AM SURE THAT HE WOULD NEVER SUCCUMB TO SUCH A CHEAP SHOT.
Excuse me? Our Federal government has listed him as a “fugitive” and put him on a MOST WANTED LIST because he unlawfully left the country (fled) in order to avoid facing trial for the GRAND JURY INDICTMENTS. This is serious stuff.
ANTI-VAXXERS, PLEASE TAKE NOT OF THIS PERSON’S CALLOUS DISREGARD FOR OUR LAWS. WOULD YOU ENTRUST THE SAFETY OF YOUR CHILD WITH SOMEONE SUCH AS HIM??????
“The argument you are making seems to be:
Wakefield is a fraud”
Nope. I know nothing of the case. I AM JUST SICK OF HEARING HIS NAME, WHEN IT IS TOTALLY IRRELEVANT.
If you have a scientific reason to invoke the name “Wakefield”, then please follow it with a well reasoned CITED (link) statement.
Your faux “neurolinguistic propaganda” has fallen flat.
THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN
THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN.
Sadmar: We’re way past ‘proving vaccines cause autism’. Vaccines cause everything, because the parents say so. And it doesn’t matter if they’re wrong. They’ve got rights, and it’s none of Big Guvment’s business!.
And this is why no amount of facts will work, even if the parents hadn’t slept through high school biology. Taking vaccines away for a few years in places like Marin or instituting a two or three tier system in the doctor’s office is much more likely to work. Like for instance, if the family doesn’t vaccinate, they have to wait in the waiting room with no toys, or the doctor makes sure to praise other families in their presence.
I just love the idea that we have a commenter who has given themselves the nickname of a professional wrestler.
It’s ok, Toto, I smelll what “The Rock” is cooking.
a-non: I hope Dwayne Johnson sues Toto for slander. Actually, from what I hear, he’s intelligent, whereas Toto would lose a game of chess to a mass of algae.
SSI is more or less the Danish counterpart to the CDC, with a few notable distinctions – it does fall directly under the auspices of the Ministry of Health, it is the producer for all the vaccines used on the Danish vaccine schedule, and has an excellent record of research publications and opportunities for PhD scholarships.
As far as Thorsen, he’s practicing medicine. That’s what doctors do. Unless they’ve had their license revoked.
Toto, Wakefield is being discussed because, as per the OP, he was invited by some berks to testify to the Oregon legislature…
By the way, you (and anyone else) do realise how difficult it is to actually get struck off by the GMC over here, don’t you? You really do have to try hard and screw up most royally. And to be removed from (so I am informed by someone in a position to know) from fellowship of a Royal College…
It is not coincidental that Wakefield hightailed it out of here, as his name is now officially “The disgraced former doctor” Wakefield.
Just wanted to share this with anyone in need of some comic relief – one of the featured videos on YouTube today is a Jimmy Kimmel Live segment: A Message for the Anti-Vaccine Movement.
Hooray for Jimmy Kimmel…and for Sarah A… for providing that videotape.
Praise Jimmy Kimmel – that was beautiful.
http://tinyurl.com/no65ams (w. links to video)
“Freshman congressman Barry Loudermilk, (R – GA) hosted his first town hall meeting last week. On vaccines, he told the crowd:
He was responding to a question about whether there’s been a cover-up in certain studies about the link between autism and the MMR vaccine. He continued:
Loudermilk was recently named to the Science, Space and Technology Committee.
You’re failing to grasp that Tutu doesn’t actually read the posts; all comment threads, by definition, are about Tutu.
[…] pitiful Andy (Wakefield): Dissed again, this time by the Oregon Senate Committee on Health Care, Respectful Insolence am 26. Februar […]
@Darwy – thanks for the info. Much appreciated. 🙂
I note how Handley miscalculates the number of vaccines given “before” the age of 6 years again, arriving at a total of 37 when some are given only at 6 years (not before) and some can be combined.
He also tells blatant lies about the vaccine schedules for other countries. For example:
Norway is 15 (not 13)
Iceland is 16 (not 11)
Sweden is 15 (not 11)
Denmark is 16 (not 14)
Japan has 21 (not 11)
If he has such a great scientific case against vaccines, why does he need to lie?
Handley also lies about the combination vaccines – he says Merck states that: “Routine administration of DTP and/or oral polio vaccine is not recommended because there is limited data on the simultaneous administration of these vaccines.”
Is he trying to kid them that we are still back in the 1980s, when we used to give OPV and DTP vaccines? Neither of these is in current use routinely, so why does he even mention them?
…he says Merck states that: “Routine administration of DTP and/or oral polio vaccine is not recommended because there is limited data on the simultaneous administration of these vaccines.”
Strange that neither Handley nor any of the antivaxers reading this seem to draw the obvious inference: that, contrary to what they repeatedly claim, the effects of giving multiple vaccines together are studied and recommendations are based on the outcomes of those studies. To hear them talk you’d think the pediatric vaccine schedule was decided by throwing darts.
I believe that that’s what they think.
Narad #70: Ooooops, silly me! 😉
I am highly amused (but not surprised) that the Oregon chiropractors wanted Wakefield to pontificate at the committee. After all chiropractors still hold to a set of ideas that have been surpassed by at least a century. Nothing like living in the past where Andrew Wakefield appeared to be relevant.
Of course Wakefield has no compunction to prostitute himself to whomever will pay the food and drink bills.
Poor, poor pitiful Andy (Wakefield) dissed yet again.
Italian appeal court throws out case alleging that MMR caused autism, denounces Wakefield’s work as junk.
Lots online. Easy for translation. Keywords vaccini rimini
Poor, poor pitiful Mary Holland.
Then again, the whole “analysis” is hopelessly confused anyway:
No, the question was who had to pay for the compensation. The disability was on the state’s tab one way or the other.
What the hell do you think the Court of Federal Claims is?
^ At least, that’s how I remember the Rimini decision.
Reality @ 24;
Calling Andy Wakefield as your expert witness on vaccination policy is akin to calling Bernie Madoff as your expert witness on financial investments.
In fairness that is the same argument ‘psychics’ et al. use when refusing to be tested by James Randi.
I’d rather have Madoff point out a ponzi scheme than someone from, oh I don’t know, let’s say HSBC.
But I take your point.
Apologies I forgot the quotation marks in my first paragraph..
So glad I can read Italian a bit.
Just came through on Skeptical Raptor’s blog. Our resident law school professor is “on it”…
[…] I can’t say for sure that the use of vaccines has never caused a case of Autism, I also can’t say that it has. I’m not sure anyone can confidently say yes or no on either […]
[…] changed the meeting to a work session instead of a public hearing and uninvited all speakers. Yes, Andrew Wakefield is the one whose infamous study linking the MMR vaccine to autism was retracted from the journal in […]
Well, lovely comments here but this got me: I’m actually shocked that J.B. Handley was allowed to testify. This is someone who has no scientific credentials to speak of and has often been laughably wrong about vaccines, And that doesn’t even get into his very public bullying (including threats of legal action) against anyone who disagrees with him.
How will you allow someone w/out a background in health to testify or give health related ideas?
Steve of: http://groomiest.com
[…] depressingly, yesterday I learned of a perfect example of this unfortunate phenomenon. Remember my discussion of Oregon Senate Bill 442? It’s a bill that was being considered in Oregon in the wake of the Disneyland measles […]
I’d post this in the laughing, yawning hyena thread, but Orac has shut it down without a single response, unable to defend his weak position about biological plausibility, even in his impudent style:
VACCINE INJURY: First the Gut, Then the Brain
Meanwhile, you’re all behaving as if vaccine injury doesn’t exist while the industry does absolutely nothing to improve safety.
The above post could only have been written by someone suffering from either a severe reading comprehension problem or a terminal case of confirmation bias.
Keith Bell writes at Green Med Info.
shay: “The above post could only have been written by someone suffering from either a severe reading comprehension problem…”
Seriously. I don’t think there has ever been an article without any comments in the years I have been reading this blog.
And apparently doesn’t get enough attention, which is why he’s taken to spamvertising his dreck here (also Nos. 219, 510, 529, and 537).
He seems to really dislike being ignored, as one can see again here:
Note that it didn’t, say, automatically close after three months, it was “shut down” out of cowardice in the face of KEITHBELL.
Time to update the killfile.
What thread is he even talking about? The only thing I can think of is it’s a thread that’s more than 90 days old. Threads auto-close at 90 days because rarely are there any good comments after that length of time, just spam.
No one is do this, however. what we are doing is we’re noting (accurately) that the adverse consequences causaly associated with vaccination are well understood; that those which are common (e.g., soreness at the site of injection, low grade fever) being both minor and transient and those that are serious (e.g., encephalopathy) all but vanishingly rare.
it’s also false to claim that the industry is doing nothing to improve safety: wherever safety concerns associated with a vaccine safety have been deminstrated the industry has rapidly taken corrective action, up to and including withdrawing the product from the market (as was done with respect to RotaShield).
By “without a single response”, Keith presumably means the umpteen responses in the laughing, yawning hyena thread in which his GreenMedInfo fomites were refuted, and attention was called to his well-rounded ignorance on an impressive range of topics.
Here’s another vaccine safety article for anyone interested in safety which is very few of you, if any:
Good to know posts are closed after 90 days. This is the heinous Orac post I referred to; no response from Orac while Narad had nary a thing to add:
You might regain some lost customers if you concentrated on safety.
Thanks for the laughs at your ignorance and lack of reading comprehension. I did need a good laugh, and you seem like the perfect fool for a good chuckle.
Please keep on posting, show the world your complete lack of basic scientific knowledge, and we all could use a laugh at your expense.
The above post could only have been written by someone suffering from either a severe reading comprehension problem or a terminal case of confirmation bias.
Keith Bell writes at Green Med Info.
You two should be in vaudeville.
Keith should be careful. If he annoys me enough, I might just start blogging about some of his spew over at GreenMedInfo. 🙂
no response from Orac while Narad had nary a thing to add
Didn’t they tell you? ‘Narad’ is just another of Orac’s noms-de-guerre. In fact we all are.
I had a nom-de-beurreonce, which I used for spamming on behalf of the NZ dairy industry.
I’d be honored, Orac. You of all people must realize there’s no such thing as bad publicity. Have you done much research into the microbiome and cancer? Some cancer drugs fail without microbes and the same is true of vaccines:
I’d be impressed if you demonstrated grasp of the constructs. Narad and one other from your gang were the only people demonstrating understanding while others like Skeptiquette went on and on like windbags without really understanding microbial predisposition. I’ll admit, she was very sweet though . . . and helpful as opposed to novalox and bimler who are heavy on insolence, low on respect.
Looking forward to even an ounce of substantive response given the US government has already compensated vaccine-injured families $3 billion.
You two should be in vaudeville.
At least we’ll never sink to the level of greenmedinfo.
hdb: “Keith presumably means the umpteen responses in the laughing, yawning hyena thread in which his GreenMedInfo fomites were refuted, and attention was called to his well-rounded ignorance on an impressive range of topics.”
It seems he is upset that his claims did not elicit a reply by Orac. Though it is quite clear he does not understand the several dozen responses by others.
Though I would love to have him answer one question I had about the MMR vaccine: since it was first introduced in the USA in 1971 (with a slight change of rubella strain in 1978), surely he as documentation dated before 1990 that it caused all those terrible things in the USA during the 1970s and 1980s.
The USA is much larger and had been using it much longer before Wakefield was even aware it existed… so the effects would have been noticed much earlier if they were real.
Oh, and Mr. Bell, I want verifiable documentation dated before 1990… not an Age of Autism article by some financial dude. I can really see why you did not understand the responses if you think 2010 was before 1990.
Chris, how do you respond to the fact Merck quadrupled the amount of mumps virus used in the MMR in 1990 from 5,000 to 20,000 units? This resulted in a huge spike in autism cases.
Are you up to date with your vaccines, btw? I’d bet you need a few boosters, especially MMR. You’re a carrier if I ever met one. Hopefully, your immune system reliant on flora balance can handle the vaccine challenge.
Mr. Bell: “Chris, how do you respond to the fact Merck quadrupled the amount of mumps virus used in the MMR in 1990 from 5,000 to 20,000 units? This resulted in a huge spike in autism cases”
Unless you provide some kind of verifiable documentation (not AoA or your website), we will assume you are just making it up. I am not even talking about the 1990s, I am asking about the years between 1971 and 1990. Do try to keep up.
Since I was born after 1956 and no one in my family remembers if I had measles (though I definitely had mumps, twice!) I got an MMR vaccine about a month ago. This was prompted because we are going to travel to California in a couple of months.
So I am not a carrier, and you still need to come up with actual verifiable documentation dated before 1990 that the issues you claim are caused by the MMR vaccine were there in the 1970s and 1980s.
I’d be impressed if you demonstrated grasp of the constructs.
And to what greater heights could anyone aspire, than to impress Keith Bell of GreenMedInfo?
On the contrary, you’re definitely a carrier since you were recently vaccinated with MMR. How long do you plan on shedding? Any rashes?
Thanks for the inspiration to research 1971 to 1990; I’ll get back to you if I have any answers. One obvious concern is the difference in the overall protocol. Safe journey.
And, btw, being a carrier isn’t such a bad thing if your immune system keeps the problem in check and you don’t infect anyone vulnerable. Did you know 95% of all polio cases are asymptomatic? This means millions of people are carriers and don’t even know it . . . so how can we improve natural immunity? There are lots of good ways not yet implemented. One is improved sanitation. Another is nutrition.
Mr. Price, why should we accept videos as evidence from Suzanne Humphries? She is only slightly more qualified than you, and that is not a very high bar.
Ooops, I meant “Mr. Bell.”
Keith, your evidence factually establishing the existence of a causal association between the MMR vaccine and autism spectrum disorders would be…what, exactly? Be specific.
You do have some, right? Your claim is founded in something other than a post hoc ergo propter hoc logical fallacy?
I know that Dorit Reiss is not paid to post.
You cited “Age of Autism”? Seriously Ken?
Also, are you a sockpuppet of Keith Bell?
Lower-case ken has been here much longer, and has a distinctive style of commenting. His revelations are more entertaining if you have the Dramatic Gopher playing in a background window while you read them.
ow do you respond to the fact Merck quadrupled the amount of mumps virus used in the MMR in 1990 from 5,000 to 20,000 units?
This ‘fact’ seems to have become an article of faith in anti-vax circles, passed from hand to hand in the manner of a well-sucked lollipop, and it would be foreign to its catechistic nature for them to load it down with sources. The nearest thing one can find to evidence is a known bullsh1t artist attributing the claim to “an informal conversation with a Merck scientist.”
In some versions of the story. Merck are further accused of perfidiously reducing the number of mumps virions in Varimax, in 2007… but are they given any credit for reducing the incidence of autism?
Since MMR consists of live (attenuated) viruses there is no connection between the number of particles initially injected and the number of particles in one’s body while the immune system does its thing, but there you go.
I’m glad that I’m just now getting around to a machine that hasn’t had the latest Plonk-O-Matic patch installed yet. This triple-decker failburger is delicious.
Mr. Bell seems to be playing the “thingy-card” – whereas the only people who are “infected” are those who get vaccinated.
Until I got interested in this topic, years ago, I never imagined that there were people as both stupid and crazy, as the likes of Keith Bell.
Hey, Keith – quick, what’s the name for these units?
If Jake Crosby is to be believed, the units are numbers of virions. Each injection of Merck MMR contained precisely 5000 virus particles prior to 1990, and precisely 20,000 afterwards. They are measured out with a very small pipette.
However, the story had already passed through several digestive systems before it reached Crosby.
If this clumsy non sequitur is accurate, how is it that polio has been eliminated from India, going from 500-1,000 children being paralyzed every day in the early 90s to zero cases since 2011? It’s almost as if Keith is spouting easily refuted nonsense, and there is no asymptomatic carrier state except in immune deficient persons.
Ah yes ken, the pharma shill gambit, a sure sign as of any that you have no coherent argument to speak of and admit that you cannot bring a barely cogent argument to the table.
#112 Mr Price. Chris you appear to be suffering from schizophrenic symptoms, possibly due to your recent MMR vaccination. Or, you’ve been doing a lot cooking using the Vincent Price cookbook for your husband, Narad, especially fond of the gnotobiotic pig dish. (Denice got a kick out of that re: this incestual group.)
Are you constipated? This leads to serotonin deficiency and glutamate excitotoxicity. Please don’t sleep in the face-down prone position to avoid stimulation of the serotonergic sytstem by CO2 and cardiac arrest.
Kreb, great to read you. Narad, riotous (I love that guy).
“Up to 95% of all polio infections are inapparent or asymptomatic.”
Kreb, you’re absurdly behaving as if polio has actually been eliminated in India. Who pulled the wool? Later we can talk about the thousands of people paralyzed by the polio vaccine, but for now you need to understand polio is alive and well, kept in check by intestinal mucosal cells working synergistically with microbes in a body near you. See here:
Mr. Bell: “Chris you appear to be suffering from schizophrenic symptoms, possibly due to your recent MMR vaccination.”
It was a typo because I was sitting down quickly while making dinner. And I am definitely not constipated, never have been due to a good diet and exercise.
Now, where is any real evidence that the MMR causes the issues you claims it does, and that documentation dated before 1990 that they happened in the 1970s and 1980s.
Oh, and as far as the mumps component in the MMR, there is the Table I in Increasing exposure to antibody-stimulating proteins and polysaccharides in vaccines is not associated with risk of autism.. The MMR only has 24 antigens per dose, so you better find out what Young Master Crosby means by “units.”
Thanks for your response, Chris. Glad to hear you’re not constipated and wish you the best in mental health. But the fact you’ve had mumps twice is concerning as it’s associated with psychosis later in life. Instead of MMR to prepare for your trip to California, you might have considered boosting innate immunity with probiotic therapy, heavy on bifidobacteria along with things like organ meats for vitamin A. Vitamin D3 and especially zinc may be good supplements for you.
Also, you may consider lowering carbs, dairy and intermittent fasting.
So much crazy packed into a single individual – I do hope Keith hangs around, he’s fun to watch….like a slow-motion train wreck.
Chris — do you really expect a straight answer? He’s dodging faster than a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs.
I know exactly what it means. It’s even been handed to you in the replies, but you don’t seem to have been able to figure it out.
Yet you are the one who invoked the “fact.”
Anyway, the “millions of polio carriers” bit was a knee-slapper, but you’re not worth my not updating this box as well.
^ Ah, no coffee. Sorry, Chris.
Keith Bell #98:
“You might regain some lost customers if you concentrated on safety.”
Interesting word use. Mr. Bell might be interested to know that unlike greenmedinfo, for example, this website doesn’t have a store.
Yeah, shay, I don’t expect much from Mr. Bell, a guy who thinks he can diagnose someone due to one typo. Narad, would you accept a diagnosis from Mr. Bell because you mixed up replies?
Especially since he lists actually getting a disease as a precursor to mental illness… but thinks kids would be better with the diseases than with the MMR vaccine. By the way, Brain Trust Bell, every kid got those infections before wide use of vaccines (and Sweden is one of those countries that had low vaccine uptake, see Impact of anti-vaccine movements on pertussis control: the untold story).
It has, and if you believe otherwise you are the one who has had the wool pulled over your eyes. Do you believe that the 27,281 negative stool tests on patients with AFP in India last year were all faked?
Thousands? There were 35 cases of vaccine-derived polo globally last year, according to the WHO (see link above), not a single one in India. If you mean VAPP, it occurs after 1 in 2.7 million doses of OPV, and is the reason countries where polio has been eliminated move to the IPV.
I’m curious, why do you think this asymptomatic infection fails to show up in stool samples? Why do you believe it exists?
I always enjoy it when antivaxxers present a study they have misunderstood that says the opposite of what they think it does. That study was carried out in 2003–2008, before polio was eliminated in India, on children who had been in contact with suspected polio cases. These were people with asymptomatic active infection, not carriers, and virus was only detected in their stools for a limited period. I very much doubt there are any bodies near me that have been in recent contact with polio sufferers. As the study makes clear, the OPV is somewhat effective at preventing gut infection with polio virus, but is much more effective at preventing the virus from causing paralysis.
#135 AFP is a serious problem –
Highest NPAFP rate
“Government surveillance data show that while India is set to be tagged as polio-free, it has actually become the nation with the world’s highest rate of NPAFP incidence.”
@ken – I thought you weren’t coming back?
Also, once you start looking for something, you’re going to find a lot more of it…..and none of those cases were Polio.
Of course it is. Do you have a point? Did you expect polio vaccination to eliminate other causes of AFP, like snake bites and car accidents? Other enteroviruses are another cause of AFP, which is why drug companies are working on vaccines to prevent them and antiviral drugs to treat them.
#138 Never said it was. You are certainly showing your lack of compassion. So if it’s not polio it doesn’t matter. That’s what’s wrong with the narrownwss, snarkiness of this blog. If it doesn’t support your gospel it’s irrelevant. Empathy impairment- how many Asberger’s on this blog?
Narad please exercise your high IQ and search for grammar errors in #141 Thanks really relevant.
That’s very probably because the places where vaccine coverage is highest are also the areas where active surveillance is greatest.
Why would he expect reducing polio incidence to reduce non-polio AFP? As I wrote above AFP can be caused by car accidents and snake bites, both of which as not uncommon in India, and by other enteroviruses. None of these are prevented by the polio vaccine.
Nice insult against people with Asbergers there ken, such a kind and considerate person.
Things that aren’t Polio, aren’t Polio – what’s your point?
You rarely do, you just copy and paste stuff and expect us to divine what it is you think it shows. I can only base what I think you mean on your previous offerings here.
How does me agreeing that AFP is a serious problem show a lack of compassion precisely?
What was your point in posting that link? The polio eradication program wins an astonishing victory by eliminating polio in India and all you can do is whine about non-polio AFP. Don’t you have any compassion for the hundreds of thousands that were crippled by polio in India every year (I met several when I was in India in the late 80s), and the millions that will now have active healthy lives thanks to vaccination?
Kreb, re: asymptomatic polio in India:
Why do you think up to 95% of all polio cases are asymptomatic? I think it’s about protective gut flora balance. And it seems the same applies to why measles is lethal in some while mild in most.
I came here to share my new article about how the same mechanism may apply to vaccine injury and learn a few things in conversation. It’s about vaccine safety, not elimination of vaccination.
Chris, I’m not diagnosing you in the least, don’t take it personally. I was merely using you as way of describing how a gut injury leads to brain injury.
Keith’s “gut” describes how screwed up in the head he is…..
I came here to share my new article about how the same mechanism may apply to vaccine injury and learn a few things in conversation
No, no, you came here to whinge like a WATB about a lack of personal attention from the blogger, and to complain that the lack of fan-service was a kind of censorship. I’ve seen stuck pigs comport themselves with more dignity.
Mr. Bell: “Chris, I’m not diagnosing you in the least, don’t take it personally. I was merely using you as way of describing how a gut injury leads to brain injury. ”
Thoroughly demonstrating you are completely clueless. Which was made abundantly clear when you refused to answer my questions on the other thread, but floundered about by changing the subject.
bimler, let’s talk about your specialty: open defecation.
Over 43 million people in Pakistan practice open defecation. Do you really think polio is a vaccination issue?
Meanwhile, less than 2% of Gates Foundation budget goes toward improving sanitation, the lion’s share toward vaccination.
@Keith – if everyone is vaccinated for Polio, then yes, it isn’t a problem, is it?
Are you really that stupid by nature, or did you get a degree in it?
Let’s see – vaccination will prevent the spread of disease quickly and inexpensively in the absence of work on sanitation. Improved sanitation will reduce the spread of some diseases, but will take decades to implement and cost significantly more. And not do anything about diseases that aren’t spread by tainted water.
I’m a big fan of providing people safe water and properly treating their wastes. I think much more effort should go to that in those countries that don’t have safe water and sanitary sewers. But vaccines for water-borne diseases is a quicker win.
BTW – see http://www.gatesfoundation.org/What-We-Do/Global-Development/Reinvent-the-Toilet-Challenge if you want more information on the Gates initiatives on human waste disposal.
bimler, let’s talk about your specialty
Let’s not. Why shift to an entirely new topic, when earlier you stated as a fact that “Merck quadrupled the amount of mumps virus used in the MMR in 1990 from 5,000 to 20,000 units”?
You have been invited to buttress that claim with evidence. I hope you’re not running away from it.
He’s dodging faster than a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs.
I would have said “dodging faster than a blindfolded clown in a room full of rakes”, but Shay’s version is also good.
My apologies Kreb-
Another article on AFP which clarifies some points. http://www.decodedscience.com/enterovirus-update-whats-new-californias-polio-like-paralysis/43792
@ken – again, what does that have to do with Polio, which is almost eradicated & we have a vaccine for?
#156 It’s Science- not myriad snarky comments.
It’s Science- not myriad snarky comments.
I have read enough and written enough critical reviews to break down Science roughly as follows:
Lab work: 10%
Writing grant applications: 15%
Writing manuscripts: 10%
Hanging out at conferences: 10%
Snarky comments about other scientists: 50%.
Actually, it is science. Please provide your proof that something that is not Polio is actually Polio.
hdb: “Let’s not. Why shift to an entirely new topic, …”
Notice how Bell said: “bimler, let’s talk about your specialty:..” to get off the topic, right after my observation of “…but floundered about by changing the subject.”
#159 If you had read the article you would not have made such a dumb remark. Something that is not polio is not polio according to the article which has examined the AFP cases in CA. Some people were concerned about this having a possible relationship to the polio vaccine.
Only about 1% of cases lead to paralytic polio because only in 1% of cases does the virus get into the nervous system. In the other 99% of cases it leads to mild influenza-like symptoms at most. As for why that 1% ends up paralyzed, it appears to be down to chance whether or not the virus makes it into the nervous system.
What makes you think that?
Do you any particular reason to believe this? Measles is most dangerous in the very young and in adults. Why would these groups be more likely to have gut dysbiosis?
Even more people practice open defecation in India (I could tell some tales) yet they haven’t had a case of polio for 4 years. So, yes, polio is definitely a vaccination issue.
Like I wrote above, “AFP can be caused by […] other enteroviruses. Polio was the low-hanging fruit, now we need vaccines or effective treatments for the higher hanging fruit like enterovirus 68.
The great thing about this is that if Keith weren’t so dense, he could have at least reasonably attempted to make a case for invisible persistence in the environment. Not anyplace where OPV is used, mind you, but still.
If IPV induced no mucosal immunity at all,* the virus could simply run its course in the gut** without the infection’s being noticed. This isn’t an unreasonable concern, and it would require wastewater surveillance in places like, y’know, the U.S..
IPV, however, looks to boost mucosal immunity, preserving the viability a ring strategy – still with wastewater monitoring, I’d say – PMID 19624278 notwithstanding.***
* I’ve brought all this up before; it was Vincent Racaniello’s blog at virology[.]ws that clued me in, but in the names of link parsimony and laziness, I’m just going to fly by the seat of my pants.
** No, it doesn’t shack up and get manicured by optimally tuned intestinal flora – and really, this could some sort of specific analogy, e.g., athlete (see Ewry, Ray)? musician? compost pile? Spencer Tunick group photo? – like some sort of goat-feeding operation involving a sod roof.
*** The related articles on this item look quite interesting. Only part of the Philosophical Transactions issue is open-access: h_tp://rstb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/368/1623.toc
^ “viability of“
Oh, that’s a go-to trip for Keith. Recycling runs deep.
They spent $338,010 on vaccine delivery and $21,760 on vaccine development in 2013,
They had total expenditures of almost $3 million on global health and development for that year,
So the $359,770 for vaccines wasn’t the lion’s share of it. By any definition.
Jerusalem artichokes are packed full of prebiotics, mostly inulin. This is how I discovered that ‘prebiotic’ is altmed code for ‘flatulence-inducing’. If you are doubled up with abdominal cramps from gas, you know your microbiome is on good shape, apparently. A horrible memory of making fermented cabbage just surfaced, shudder…
Narad: “Recycling runs deep.”
Well, Keith is very good at recycling bovine excrement.
I read the article. And I not only didn’t see word one about some people being concerned that it had a possible relationship to the polio vaccine. I didn’t see word one about any people being concerned that it had a possible relationship to the polio vaccine.
Yeah, I mindlessly copied those figures from the website without thinking about anything besides what was or wasn’t a lion’s share of the total, proportionally speaking.
So I didn’t notice that they were way too low. Which they are, because (as they plainly state):
The amounts are in thousands of US dollars.
So add a few zeros.
They have an insane amount of money, I must say.
As good as the Steinerite CCA that I subscribed to was in prime season, the massive filler loads of these things in autumn figured heavily into my decision to abandon the project.
So far, it appears no one is interested in the gut-brain mechanism of vaccine injury I describe in my new article. And I doubt Orac will be brave enough to approach the subject, no matter how annoyed.
So now the conversation is reduced to gut flora mechanism in polio; a fine subject. Kreb, I linked you the CDC page above about 95% of polio cases being asymptomatic, surprisingly not common knowledge.
Here’s some new knowledge and some old:
ann, thanks for researching, but $3 million falls out of Bill Gates’ nose every hour. Dig deeper and factor BMGF working in concert with major pharmaceuticals. Vaccination dwarfs sanitation.
Chris, I still love you and don’t believe you’re actually schizophrenic. Narad, open invitation. I meant to say “gut-brain connection”. Kreb, your reaction to inulin may actually be a sign of dysbiosis which may also explain your decade of giardia.
Here’s one of the 2014 study references from 2011:
“Intestinal microbiota promote enteric virus replication and systemic pathogenesis”
“We found that poliovirus binds lipopolysaccharide, and exposure of poliovirus to bacteria enhanced host-cell association and infection.”
So, it appears an imbalanced gut high in Proteobacteria and Bacteroides, gram-negative LPS-producers overgrown from a high sugar diet and/or toxic environment reducing gram- positive lactic acid bacteria (Bifidobacteria and Lactobacillus), make one more prone to polio symptoms.
I’d bet the same is true of measles. In the unfortunate loss of Roald Dahl’s young daughter to measles, it’s worth considering what kind of diet she was raised on given her father did more to promote sugar consumption than any person in the history of art and literature. What should have been a mild childhood disease became lethal.
blockquote>In the unfortunate loss of Roald Dahl’s young daughter to measles, it’s worth considering what kind of diet she was raised on given her father did more to promote sugar consumption than any person in the history of art and literature. What should have been a mild childhood disease became lethal.
What a loathsome asshole you are.
Here’s Kevin Bell last October, having announced that Einstein’s autism was the subject he wanted to talk about, reacting to the skepticism of more knowledgeable people by changing the subject to something completely different:
Is there any argument he hasn’t run away from?
I was in error. They spent $3.6 billion in 2013, not $3.6 million.
If you want any digging done that’s deeper than their almost 1,000-page Form 990, I’m afraid you’ll have to do it yourself.
But FYI: Their investment in pharmaceuticals is dwarfed by their investments in energy, technology, and a number of other industries.
Seriously. There’s just no way to read their financials as reflecting a hand-in-glove, related-party-type collaboration with drug companies. They don’t have one.
However. If you think it would be more globally philanthropic to put more money into sanitation than into vaccines, you’re free to start your own $40 billion private foundation.
That’s how liberty works.
I doubt it’s keeping him awake at night.
What makes you think that? It has been discussed here many times before. A person with asymptomatic polio will clear the disease and is not a carrier, as you claim. The CDC page you linked to clearly states this:
I suppose the CDC is a reliable source of information only when it supports your mistaken ideas. This asymptomatic carrier state is very rare even in immune deficient people so your claim that “millions of people are carriers and don’t even know it” is wrong.
I can see how a pathogenic gut infection might increase the chances of polio virus invading the nervous system, but the studies you cited don’t appear to support your claims. Immune deficient mice with their gut bacteria reduced a million-fold by antibiotic treatment are less susceptible to polio than those not treated with antibiotics:
This supports your claims how? Benjamin P. Sandler was crank who has his own pages on whale.to and whose theories about polio being caused by sugar were discredited decades ago – he claimed that the increase in polio cases in the summer was because children consumed more sugary sodas and ice cream then.
Given my excellent GI health before I contracted giardia and after successful treatment with an anti-protozoal drug (over 15 years ago now), I somewhat doubt that. I love the way any altmed treatment is working if it makes you feel better and if it makes you feel worse that means it’s working too.
I didn’t mean anything nearly so ZOG.
I was really just thinking that they must have a little bit of a hard time coming up with enough worthy endeavors to meet the 5% minimum requirement some years.
That’s a lot of money.
This 2014 paper states 2.4% of healthy people were shedding wild poliovirus in their stool. You don’t have to be immune compromised to be a carrier.
The sugar in question is a component of the cell wall of microbes where viruses have a preference for certain microbes. In fact, viral infection is known to temporarily improve the ASD condition.
Kreb, you’re not factoring microbial predisposition and how people are different in this way. It makes perfect sense antibiotics would lead to reduced chance of polio infection.
There are over 1.25 billion people in India with plenty of healthy people shedding polio.
“Since 2000, the Gates Foundation has committed a total of more than $4 billion to GAVI.”
In contrast, their paltry, unviable Reinvent the Toilet campaign is a publicity stunt hiding their true agenda. But they have made the issue somewhat of a priority, however backward, educated the public and also doing some great work in fecal sludge removal/management.
Unfortunately, Bill Gates is still promoting the mixing of human waste with water:
This was in India before polio was eliminated and the title is ‘Prevalence of Asymptomatic Poliovirus Infection in Older Children and Adults in Northern India’. These are “healthy contacts of case patients with polio” i.e. people with asymptomatic infections, not carriers.
So antibiotic use leads to gut dysbiosis except when it doesn’t?
That article says no such thing. It says India had been polio free since 2011. How can people be contacts of case patients with polio if there are no cases of polio?
Oh, G-d, I can’t resist looking.
One might note the preceding sentence:
“Exposure to bacteria or their N-acetylglucosamine-containing surface polysaccharides, including lipopolysaccharide and peptidoglycan, enhanced poliovirus infectivity.”
Didn’t look too closely at Figure 4, did you? (Guess who makes 10 times as much PG.)
Hey, I wonder whether Kuss et al. have been cited by anybody.
“We determined that exposure to bacteria increased infectivity of poliovirus virions. After exposure to Gram-positive or Gram-negative bacteria, we recovered up to 5-fold more plaque forming units (PFU) than we started with. Since only ~1 of every 200 picornavirus particles are infectious, these data suggest that exposure to bacteria ‘resurrects’ infectivity for some particles, reducing the particle:PFU ratio…. [V]iral stabilization required an acetylated GlcNAc-containing polysaccharide longer than 6 units.”
One more to come.
Because, of course, measles is actually transmitted by the fecal-oral route.
I’m sure Keith Bellend’s elaboration of the basis for this will be fascinating.
Hey, Keith, what’s your mailing address?
Dawn breaks over Marblehead.
How did Roald Dahl “promote sugar consumption”?
You are a noxious, poisonous, hateful, vile individual.
GFY, FOADIAF and then GTH.
Julian Frost: “How did Roald Dahl “promote sugar consumption”?”
Apparently by writing Charlie and the Chocolate Factory. Which if you read his one of his autobiographies was inspired by his boarding school being near Cadbury’s, which tested new treats on the students.
And if Bell had bothered to actually learn about Roald Dahl, he would know that he was an avid vegetable gardener:
After his daughter’s death he created a special memorial garden for her.
OTOH, “George’s Marvellous Medicine” was clearly written to promote alt-health and probiotic supplements.
You know, I am really glad that Mr Dahl is dead so he can’t see the absolutely loathsome comment by Keith. Or, alternatively, I wish he were still alive so he could punch Keith in the face for that comment. If I ever had any interest in reading what Keith wrote (which I don’t), it would have been completely destroyed by that comment.
And James and the Giant Peach of course, is a paean to an all-raw vegan diet.
I guess composers and lyricists don’t figure into “art and literature.”
OBVIOUSLY, if you compare 14 years of spending to one, relatively recent campaign, the former will be larger.
In fact, they do spend more on vaccines than on water/hygiene/sanitation.
But the amount they spend on vaccines is (ahem) dwarfed by the amount they spend on other things.
If we’re talking about spending since 2000 (minus the grants to GAVI) that sum would be approximately $29 billion.
I mean, Keith Bell.
Are you suggesting that they sit around at the Gates Foundation, saying to themselves:
“Hey, I know! Let’s spend $29 billion on stuff we don’t care about at all — such as agricultural development and HIV/AIDS treatment and scholarships — in order to disguise our true agenda, vaccines!”
That doesn’t make much sense.
In this context, it is worth recalling how Bellend began his recent, dismally failed, dalliance with poliovirus:
It is a testament to his idiocy that he fails to realize that it was precisely the improvement of sanitation that led to the creation of ever-worsening epidemics of poliomyelitis in the U.S. in the first place. Yet, if one were to accept his (risible) premise of endemic, occult circulation, this is exactly what his proposal would encourage.
Well what else would you expect from someone so morally challenged and intellectually deficient as keith?
You think you won’t be surprised at how low the depths anti-vax posters will go but but they always seem to impress how far they’ll dig themselves under.
I’m not surprised by the cowardice of this group (given its blog owner), unable to discuss the mechanism behind a young girl’s death by measles for sake of future generations.
The mechanism as described and cited is strongly associated with sugar. The candy man, Dahl, also wrote “The Wonderful Story of Henry Sugar” but Willie Wonka is a classic. Didn’t know he was a vegetable gardener. Do you think it’s possible he condoned a high sugar diet, skewing flora balance? This would make a child more vulnerable to viral infection.
Again, thanks for proving my point, that you are an reprehensible individual and glory in the utterly preventable death of a young girl.
You are your ilk deserve all of the scorn and disgust you deserve.
I met a scientist who was working on agriculture sustainability; Because he got negative results with his preliminary studies, he was afraid of not being funded and let pass the deadline for applying to the BMGF.
He was contacted by a representative of the Foundation and encouraged to re-apply anyway, even if the deadline was passed. Last I heard, the new project he put together was convincing enough and is likely to be funded.
First time I heard of a funding agency contacting a scientist. They really wanted these lines of inquiry to be explored.
As you said, if they only cared about vaccines, that doesn’t make much sense.
@ Keith Bell
Running around making baseless assumptions over dead people is a sure way for you to lose the debate. You know that they say about people assuming things.
Also, nice job at missing that it’s LPS and freeling peptidoglycan which could be catching viruses. Like, the most ubiquitous bacterial component.
Oh, and Mr Bell? That Julian Frost said.
I always wondered how a high sugar diet is supposed to be capable of “skewing flora balance”, or feeding candida in the gut (the probably imaginary ‘fungal-type dysbiosis’). Sugar is rapidly hydrolyzed and absorbed in the duodenum, so it never makes it to the parts of the GI tract where the vast majority of bacteria live, and in non-diabetics it doesn’t elevate blood glucose enough to feed ‘bad’ (or good) bacteria in the colon (even if gut bacteria had access to blood glucose which as far as I know they do not).
Low glycemic index foods, conversely, make it further down the GI tract before being broken down to monosaccharides and absorbed. It seems likely that it is low GI carbohydrate intake that encourages dysbiosis rather than high GI sugar intake.
I’m not aware of any evidence that a high sugar diet leads to vulnerability to viral infections like measles, but do provide some if you have any. As far as I know the only problems that excessive sugar causes are obesity and tooth decay. I’m not convinced that sugar causes insulin resistance except by leading to obesity, though sugar consumption is an efficient way of consuming a lot of calories.
Are you off your rocker?!?! I have read “The Wonderful Story of Henry Sugar”. It’s about a wealthy layabout and gambler who teaches himself a method to see through the back of cards to win at gambling because he’s greedy, but the self-discipline he acquires learning the technique leads him to become a Robin Hood, taking casinos for fortunes and giving it to charity. And you think that the name led to increased sugar consumption?!?!
“Regardless of the genetic backgrounds the mice, fecal analysis revealed that the high-fat, high-sugar diet increased the abundance of members of the Firmicutes phylum and decreased the abundance of members of the Bacteroidetes phylum.”
Perhaps one of the members of raised Firmicutes is Bacillus cereus, a gram-positive organism (hat tip, Narad):
“Exposure to B. cereus increased poliovirus infectivity over 500%. Enhancement of poliovirus infectivity did not require live bacteria”
Refined grains may be more a culprit in duodenal microbial overgrowth than even refined sugar. The duodenum is last place you want overgrowth, the beginning of the end. Thanks for input, Kreb.
Anyone wanna talk about measles virus found in the guts of autistic children being vaccine strains? What causes it to become a chronic infection?
Perhaps origin of measles brain infection is intestinal as studies report a large percentage of autistic children carry measles in their intestines:
“Now a team from the Wake Forest University School of Medicine in North Carolina are examining 275 children with regressive autism and bowel disease – and of the 82 tested so far, 70 prove positive for the measles virus.
Last night the team’s leader, Dr Stephen Walker, said: ‘Of the handful of results we have in so far, all are vaccine strain and none are wild measles.”
I suppose listening to Sugar, sugar is also increasing sugar consumption.
For encouraging sugar consumption?
If I recall correctly, the boy who is responsible, parsimonious and respectful was rewarded, while the kid mashing chewing-gum non-stop and the other kid stuffing himself senselessly with chocolate-laden sweets both got punished for their sins.
Do you think it’s possible he condoned a high sugar diet
I think it’s far more possible that Bell has never read any of the Dahl books he’s citing.
And…he still hasn’t answered Chris’s question.
studies report a large percentage of autistic children carry measles in their intestines:
A claim from proven fraudster Andy Wakefield is at least appropriate for this thread.
# 206 @ bimler
The Kawashima paper has been repudiated by Kawashima himself, and Wakefield admitted in an expert report years ago that he could not rely on it.
The work of Nick Chadwick showed that Kawashima’s results were the result of contamination. Kawashima acknowledges that the purported strains he thought he’d found were not in vaccines.
Why the paper hasn’t been formally retracted is just another of the abuses by medical publishers, who simply can’t be assed.
Speaking of assed, Brian, have you flushed your toilet today? What viruses are you shedding?
Are you loaded with Proteobacteria feeding your virome? And how might this microbial predisposition affect how you react to your next MMR booster? Who’s living in your Peyer’s patches regulating antibody response leading to autoimmune disease, beginning in the gut leading to brain damage?
Children born with imbalanced intestinal microbiota (poor microbial predisposition) are vaccinated within 12 hours of birth, insult to injury.
The issue is overstimulation of an already compromised immune system based on flora imbalance. The actual adjuvant or vaccine strain is not relevant.
“Important testimony was delivered by one doctor who had treated over 20 cases of MS after Gardasil vaccination. Pharmaceutical representatives were trying to say that such side effects are psychogenic, but how can a psychogenic disorder cause MS lesions in a person’s brain—and in a girl who was perfectly healthy prior to vaccination? “They didn’t have an answer to that,” she says.”
Vaccine injury (and MS) begins in the gut where 70% of the body’s immune system resides based on flora balance. Then the brain is attacked:
So, what is the vaccine industry doing to make their products safer?
Mr. Bell, do tell us why we would think that the fevered blathering from Mercola or yourself would be given any kind of consideration, other than for comic relief.
Also, where is any real evidence that the MMR causes the issues you claims it does, and that verifiable documentation dated before 1990 that they happened in the 1970s and 1980s. Note: links to Mercola, Natural News, greenmedinfo and other nonsense are not acceptable.
Mercola??? A reference to Mercola?
Let Willie Wonka have the last word:
Seizing upon Pubmed keyword searches didn’t work out all that well for him, after all.
Keith Bell #202 that Daily Mail article you linked to was from 2006. In addition, the study lead was Stephen Walker.
That name sounded familiar, so I googled it. Ping!
The Daily Fail is not a reliable source for autism news, as far as I’m concerned. It reported on the Court Case in Italy where a Lower Court in Rimini found that the MMR caused autism, but typed not a single word when that verdict was overturned by the Higher Court.
Skipping past the Daily Fail, that would be this study:
PERSISTENT ILEAL MEASLES VIRUS IN A LARGE COHORT OF REGRESSIVE AUTISTIC CHILDREN WITH ILEOCOLITIS AND LYMPHONODULAR HYPERPLASIA:
REVISITATION OF AN EARLIER STUDY
Steve Walker, Karin Hepner, Jeffrey Segal, Arthur Krigsman,
Wake Forest University School of Medicine
It later emerged the last author there, Krigsman, responsible for the biopsies and the lab-work, is a dishonest incompetent with a track-record of lying about his qualifications. He is also Wakefield’s BFF.
@ K Bell
Let me see if I got it straight.
– Newborns could have an “imbalanced intestinal microbiota”.
I guess that may be true for about 100% of newborns, if you define “imbalanced intestinal microbiota” as “none”.
Unless something went wrong during the pregnancy, newborns fresh out of the womb don’t have bacteria in their guts – yet.
– an injected vaccine is going to sneak around its injection site in muscle tissues to slither up to the baby’s guts, where the absence of the right bacteria will cause the vaccine to head for the brain, passing through about every organ of the baby during this unexpected journey.
Maybe you should stop watching the TV series Stargate. You are seeing Goa’uld everywhere.
A high fat high sugar diet affected the microbiome of mice – interesting, but where’s the evidence that a high sugar diet increases susceptibility to viral infections in humans? I’m not disputing the fact that obesity is a bad thing, and that consuming lots of sugar is a good way of becoming obese, especially when combined with fats, but I’m not convinced that sugar is any worse than consuming excess calories in another form.
But B. cereus is a probiotic (some strains, anyway) – are you saying that probiotic bacteria make us more susceptible to polio? That study suggests that killing our entire microbiome would protect us from polio – this doesn’t strike me as a very good idea.
Why do you think refined grains, or sugar for that matter, preferentially feed bad bacteria and not probiotic bacteria?
Measles virus hasn’t been found in the guts of autistic children; as others have pointed out this was either a mistake or in some cases (i.e. Wakefield and Krigsman) fraud.
“Unless something went wrong during the pregnancy, newborns fresh out of the womb don’t have bacteria in their guts – yet.”
That’s the biggest fallacy without evidence in 20th century “science.” It’s where science meets religion. Evidence is accumulating showing babies are not born sterile and that the fetal GI tract is teeming with life. Meconium should be tested for every newborn pre-vaccination and stool before one year of age.
“Why do you think refined grains, or sugar for that matter, preferentially feed bad bacteria and not probiotic bacteria?”
There are hundreds of studies about how diet shifts flora.
“Refined sugars mediate the overgrowth of opportunistic bacteria like C. difficile and C. perfringens . . . “
Keith, the native Hawaiian had a diet rich in vitamins, no refined sugars and fats, and hygiene equivalent or better than the Europeans at the time. Why did measles nearly drive them to extinction?
Well, what would you expect Keith to say, Krebiozen?
The micro-biome/ autism connection is all the rage:
if you scan presentations at Autism One 2015, you’ll notice that many of the ‘experts’ discuss this along with other GI and dietary issues .Teresa Conrick perseverates at AoA.
Andy apparently left his mark with thought leaders.
I will leave out the obligatory STB reference.
I’m aware of that, but are there any in humans that show that refined carbohydrates cause gut dysbiosis? I know its part of the altmed litany, but is there any actual evidence in humans? All the studies you cited are, or themselves cite studies, on mice.
Oddly your second reference states:
Yet reference 54 is ‘Clostridium difficile infection in the inflammatory bowel disease patient; I don’t have access to the full-text, but I can’t find anything to suggest that C. diff overgrowth is caused by refined carbohydrates in IBD patients or anyone else. Reference 55 is ‘Bile salt hydrolase activity in probiotics’ and does not mention either sugar or refined carbohydrates. How would refined carbohydrates increase bile output anyway? I thought it was fats that did that.
That’s SFB reference
( sometimes I can’t see this keyboard as It is black – and I am not a 100% touch typer)
Gray, that’s a fascinating question. Are Hawaiians truly more susceptible to measles than other populations?
Maybe the answer is the staple starchy diet which also translates to the fact that 8 of the top 10 most obese nations on Earth are in the Pacific Islands:
I also question sanitation and drinking water on closed island systems.
Keith: Sorry, that failed to answer the question at all. First of all, you have nothing showing that obesity isn’t a recent issue, not a historical one. And sanitation in Europe was just as bad.
There is a far simpler, more parsimonious explanation that doesn’t require any speculation on our parts: That the native Hawaiians immune systems simply wasn’t adapted to the disease. Simple as that.
The native population of Alta California ate a diet consisting primarily of acorns, fish and game – unlike Pacific Islanders- and didn’t live on ‘closed island systems’ but still succumbed to epidemics when living amongst Europeans in the 19th Century. ( see wikip— California Indians)
There is evidence that island obesity is not a recent phenomenon. But there’s also the genetic component of the immune system based on host glycans which are carbs/sugar feeding our microbes:
Glycan Engagement by Viruses: Receptor Switches and Specificity
Keith: None of which answered my specific question. I don’t need speculation.
“That the native Hawaiians immune systems simply wasn’t adapted to the disease. Simple as that.”
Now that’s what I call science. What about the immune system’s reciprocal relationship between genes and microbes regulated by diet and environment?
Keith: That fails to explain why so many American Indian tribes died from disease. At all.
To be specific, most American Indians had much better nutrition than the European invaders, and they still died off in droves from European disease. Why is that?
Sweet Jesus. I see that Keith promptly took to G—ling after the peptidoglycan debacle, with predictable results.
American Indians are the only group known to have 100% secretor status. This affects gut flora balance as the genes regulate host glycans making them susceptible to diabetes, but also viral-glycan interaction as posted above.
See 1950 chart here:
And? They aren’t dying like flies now. Genetics doesn’t work as an explanation.
Keith, let me explain your situation to you clearly. You are the prosecutor accusing someone of being a murderer. I am the one with the alleged victim on the witness stand. The evidence is simply too strong for you to contend with.
The US government has already compensated vaccine-injured families $3 billion and counting. The case is closed, I’m only trying to describe mechanisms of injury via the gut-brain.
How was I able to guess in advance that this was going to involve the comically stupid “Blood Type Diet”?
There is evidence that island obesity is not a recent phenomenon.
Something tells me that Keith is not going to provide any of that evidence. Making stuff up is easier.
Against this nebulous unspecified “evidence”, there are descriptions of the Hawaii’ans from Captain Cook and his officers, impressed by their health and physical perfection. But who to believe? Eye-witness accounts, or “evidence” freshly invoked to shore up a failed hypothjesis?
Mr. Bell: “The US government has already compensated vaccine-injured families $3 billion and counting. The case is closed, I’m only trying to describe mechanisms of injury via the gut-brain.”
No, you are showing you don’t understand basic math. Looking at the data from 2006 to the present we see that 2,236,678,735 doses were given between 2006 to 2013, or about 319525534 doses per year. So the total is with 2014 added about 2556204269 doses.
Looking a few columns over on that first graph that 1,672 claims were compensated. So that is one claim per 1528830 doses. So that is one claim in over a million doses.
Since most of them were of the “settlement” type of compensation where the vaccine causing the injury was not actually proved.
Any chance, Mr. Bell, that you will provide actual PubMed indexed studies showing the MMR vaccine causes more harm than measles, mumps and rubella… and that it had been documented happening in the USA prior to 1990?
This one-off link was an extremely poor choice, but one of course understands that you likely stopped at the hed.
You really don’t want to add law to the list of subjects you enthusiastically embarrass yourself with.
I also question sanitation and drinking water on closed island systems.
Pre-European Hawaiian sanitation was a lot better than their European contemporaries. with strong tabus about separating sh1t from the rest of life. They favoured long-drop toilets, I recall.
If saving a hypothesis required me to dream up a whole series of secondary hypotheses, which all ran up against reality and proved to be wrong, I would think about abandoning the original hypothesis.
Ah? Fine. Any citation for me to be less stupid at the end of the day?
Since you are at it, any evidence of this “imbalance” you talk about happening in newborns?
You know, it’s how science, religion or not, works. It’s fine to rewrite the holy texts every so often, but if you forget to pass me the new missal, don’t blame me for singing out of turn.
Did you just picked up five different sentences from three different books and mashed them together?
I simply just cannot parse this word salad.
And the article you linked to is completely irrelevant, unless you just wanted to remind us that viruses dock on glycoproteins. That’s nice, but most of us already knew it.
Please elaborate. With citations.
American Indians are the only group known to have 100% secretor status. This affects gut flora balance as the genes regulate host glycans making them susceptible to diabetes, but also viral-glycan interaction as posted above.
We seem to have gone from “Vaccine-preventable diseases are only a risk to people with poor diets or poor santitation” to “Vaccine-preventable diseases are only a risk to people with a particular common gut-enzyme blood antigen (and also Polynesians, because reasons)
Yeah. Don;t forget people whose parents write books that have the word “chocolate” in the title, though.
I mean, that evidently puts you at such high risk that it can kill you two years before it even happens.
Pitiful Roald Dahl had a rough life and apparently put his children through a lot of pain. He was obsessed with candy and medicine. I wouldn’t doubt he was feeding sweets to his daughter as she was battling measles. Of course, he was also a well-known bigot. And I wonder what kind of medicine his poor wife was taking as possible cause of her strokes. After all, so-called medicine is the 4th leading cause of death in the USA. Vaccines are also known to cause stroke, cerebral microbleeds possibly due to high levels of uric acid and low levels of serotonin (gut origin).
Speaking of OCD, it’s associated with mumps and schizophrenia.
[Citation required], and the Daily Fail does not qualify as a reputable or credible source.
No citation is needed for your self-described conjecture.
No citation needed for this self-describeed conjecture.
Thanks for saying that you are a bigot. Guess that you cannot proving your assertions, you have to rely on defaming people’s character with your own shortcomings to boost yourself.
You are just a pitiable individual, and I truly feel sorry for your children, if you do have any, who have to be raised by such a vile individual.
From The Jewish Chronicle- Roald Dahl: proudly antisemitic
I wouldn’t doubt
We have noticed. I imagine it simplifies life immensely.
Oh, goody, Keith Bellend is trying to hook his moron caboose to Moulden’s idiot train.
Ah, yes, when all else fails, the classic irrelevant ad hom.
The funny thing is that he almost has an “out” for part of it, but he’s never going to figure that out by himself.
Even if you take that article at its word, it doesn’t accuse him of anything worse than being unable to sustain a series of sudden, unexpected traumatic losses that devastated his family without being negatively affected by them. As just about anyone would be.
I mean, did you read it?
She doesn’t even say that he was the cause of her pain. And she certainly doesn’t say he was obsessed with sweets, or fed his children sugar, or anything of the kind.
He didn’t write that book until two years after the death of his daughter. And now you’re holding him responsible for his wife’s strokes? All else aside, she was an independently functioning adult.
Seriously. Have a heart.
Even if those things had been said by someone who was not born in 1916 and raised in an era during which worse sentiments than that were more the rule than they were the exception, I’m not sure I would conclude that he or she was truly an antisemite simply for having said them.
I mean, they’re more antisemitic than political condemnation of Israel needs to be. But he’s mostly condemning Israeli conduct, not Jews.
Antisemitism doesn’t cause measles anyway, however. So moot point.
ann, I’m only using the story of Roald Dahl to bring attention to the dietary/microbial mechanisms of disease. We all have our demons and I’m sure he could also be a great person and loving human being.
I doubt anyone here has ever factored sugar of the microbial cell wall in viral infection and how imbalanced flora makes one more prone to injury. This includes vaccine injury which is more common than anyone here is willing to admit. Most of you can’t even acknowledge vaccine injury including death exists. Lives are being shattered.
Even the mighty Mayo Clinic doesn’t acknowledge differences in people based on flora regarding why Somali people react to rubella vaccination with twice the antibodies when it’s known Bacteroides dramatically induce high IgA production:
Mr. Bell, what documentation dated before 1990 shows the MMR caused the issues you claim in the USA during the 1970s and 1980s?
Chris, did you miss my OCD dig at you at #242?
I’m still working on answering your question. I’m not a vaccine historian, but can assume the vastly increased vaccine schedule has a lot to do with it, i.e., administering MMR along with other vaccines, as previously stated. What were the differences in measuring autism? Age-based? What was coverage in the early days of MMR?
What about generational differences (microbial predisposition) due to environmental factors such as heavy use of glyphosate? We receive our flora from our mothers, so successive generations may become more vulnerable to vaccine injury.
Denmark associates MMR with autism with historical perspective beginning 1987:
And as previously stated, a change in the MMR is strongly associated with dramatic increases in autism in the 1990s.
#251 Interesting study- Effects of Vitamin A Supplementation on Immune Responses and Correlation with Clinical Outcomes
WHO recommends Vit A supplementation for measles-All children in developing countries diagnosed with measles should receive two doses of vitamin A supplements, given 24 hours apart. This treatment restores low vitamin A levels during measles that occur even in well-nourished children and can help prevent eye damage and blindness. Vitamin A supplements have been shown to reduce the number of deaths from measles by 50%.
Gee, really? I’d never have guessed.
And you’d be wrong. “Too many, too soon” has been looked at and disproven.
#251 “Many children in developing countries have a disordered gut, which contributes to their poor response to oral vaccines, Kang said. They suffer from a complex syndrome that involves gut inflammation, altered gut microbiome, intestinal infections with several putative pathogens, impaired nutrition, and impaired growth, according to Chris Wilson, director of discovery at the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. But understanding the underlying causes for this syndrome and why vaccines don’t work in this environment isn’t easy, he said.Malnutrition seems to cause the gut to fail to maintain its immune and barrier function from pathogens, causing diarrhea and infections. This causes further gut damage and affects the gut’s ability to absorb nutrients, which makes the malnutrition worse, Kang said.”
I take it you missed the part where regurgitating D’Ohlmsted didn’t pan out so well.
I’m only using the story of Roald Dahl
All this digging up of corpses, you seem to have confused Respectful Insolence with Necrophiliacs Anonymous.
Narad, have you been breastfed yet? Better late than never.
Getcher bifidobacteria while you can, strongly associated with centenarians. They cross-feed butryate-producing clostridia. I suspect low bifidobacteria means higher risk of vaccine injury.
Impact of diet in shaping gut microbiota revealed by a comparative study in children from Europe and rural Africa
We can hypothesize that the reduction in richness we observe in EU compared with BF children, could indicate how the consumption of sugar, animal fat, and calorie-dense foods in industrialized countries is rapidly limiting the adaptive potential of the microbiota.
In other words, you concede that you have no evidence whatever that the actual formulation was changed at any time, something that would require explicit regulatory approval, yet you just keep repeating the same thing anyway.
Are you going to get around to “host glycans … are carbs/sugar feeding our microbes”? Given that this is your avowed specialty, the level of rank ignorance that you display on basic matters is astonishing.
Mr. Bell: “Chris, did you miss my OCD dig at you at #242?”
Not the data I seek, especially since a BMJ rapid response is not verifiable documentation. The MMR was the preferred vaccine for the 1978 Measles Elimination Program. Now get to it.
Also, what is the ratio of the compensated NVICP claims to the total number of vaccines doses given in the USA since 2006? How big a number is it?
Also, the Midlands is in the UK, where there was not MMR vaccine being used until 1988. So that letter basically backs up that autism rates have not changed, it is just that they are being diagnosed now. Just like my son, who has just been recently diagnosed with autism, even though I was assured in 1991 he was not autistic. Apparently the criteria changed.
Also, Goldman and Yazbak are not qualified nor reputable. Goldman has a PhD in computer science from a diploma mill, and Yazbak defended a child murderer.
ken, that’s great stuff. Regarding vitamin A and measles, beta carotene is converted to vitamin A in the presence of bile acid. Quality of bile acid is regulated by flora, especially the BSH of B. longum. So there’s a root cause of vitamin A deficiency due to flora imbalance, especially when organ meats like liver are not part of the diet.
Narad, here ya go:
It’s how genes play a role in regulating microbial balance. Bifidobacteria are known to be low in some groups based on genes regulating secretor status:
So non-secretors found high in African Americans would be reduced in bifidobacteria, potentially at greater risk of vaccine injury. It’s possible males have lower amounts of bifidobacteria than females, never studied.
No, you’re now just trying to wriggle away from again proving that when you find yourself hemmed in by your own stupidity, you’re left with nothing but your genuine nature, i.e., thoroughgoing asshοle, to fall back on.
Here you started with the comically brain-dead misreading of Kuss et al., which led you to say something stupid about poliovirus, and extended it with “I’d bet the same is true of measles,” which – on top of the failed premise – makes no fυcking sense whatever.
Naturally, the thing to do is start babbling with gems such as “of course, he was also a well-known bigot” and Andrew Freaking Moulden: “Vaccines are also known to cause stroke, cerebral microbleeds possibly due to high levels of uric acid and low levels of serotonin (gut origin).”
This further demonstrates, by the way, that you’re so g-ddamned stupid that you think 5-HT appears in brain by virtue of transport from the gut.
Chris, I’m very sorry to learn about your son. I would bet there’s much that can be done for him to reverse symptoms. Let me know if you’d like to talk about it directly. My email address is on my recent article. And thank you for the education in general.
Narad, do me the favor of reading my two page article where I briefly discuss the origin of serotonin in the brain. I’m sure you’ll have a field day.
Does anyone here know 95% of our serotonin is in the gut, not the brain? What about precursor tryptophan entering the brain from the gut dependent on flora?
Regarding stroke and vaccination:
I would deduce that Dan Olmsted fabricated his “informal conversation with a Merck scientist”, who he claims gave him information that we now know is provably wrong: there was no change in the potency of the mumps vaccine.
This doesn’t surprise me: when the father of one of the children in the Wakefield 98 fraud wrote to Olmsted and told him that Wakefield’s claims regarding the child were an “outright fabrication”, Olmsted lied on his website, omitting this information and pretending that the father criticised me.
Here is the letter:
No, you’re free to spell it out here.
Gee you mean there was a reason that in the 1990s and 2000s there was all kinds of drug development for GI problems that were compounds that fit into serotonin receptors?
Mr. Bell: “I would bet there’s much that can be done for him to reverse symptoms.”
You are an idiot. He is twenty six years old, and he was not diagnosed as a child because while he could not speak he had the audacity to smile like any other three year old when he was diagnosed in 1991 under the DSM III.
You seriously don’t get that more forms of autism are covered under both the DSM IV and DSM V. The biggest difference between the two latest DSMs is that Aspergers and PDD-NOS are now both under the full autism spectrum umbrella. My son was disappointed that he did not “just” have Asperger’s, which he would never had been diagnosed with because of his lack of speech at age three.
If you don’t know this bit of basic information, why would anyone believe anything you say.
Plenty of geniuses have had delayed speech including Einstein. Does your son have any GI symptoms? Has he ever had a PCR stool test? Recent article talks about up to 40% of those with autism also suffer epilepsy:
Narad, where’s Science Mom when you need her? I’d also recommend Bimuno out of the UK (Kreb, I think you’ll also like this product), a GOS prebiotic to feed bifidobacteria.
Popular myth of Einstein speech delay: Unsupported by reality.
(Pais, 1982, p.36)
There is an Einstein family story from two well referenced biographies, The Private Lives of Albert Einstein by Roger Highfield and Paul Carter, 1993 and Albert Einstein by Albrecht Folsing, 1997, translated from German by Ewald Osers. That story describes Albert’s comment when he was told he had a new baby sister to play with. He said “But where are the wheels?” AND he was 2 years and 8 months old when he said that. At that age my son had a dozen poorly enunciated single syllable approximations.
I learned to hate the lie about Einstein over twenty years ago. Just as I hated being told to read Thomas Sowell’s Late-Talking Children.
Mr. Bell, when you have dug as big as a hole you as you have, it is time to put away the shovel.
Did your son receive MMR? I thought the Danish autism study analyzing MMR beginning 1987 was quite good Have you ever considered microbial predisposition since you’ve had mumps twice? I maintain there’s much that can be done for your son you may not have considered. Plenty of people have reversed autism and associated epilepsy.
You will have to make up your mind at some point.
First, way upthread, you tell us that gram-neg bacteria are promoting virus infection and a gut flora with these bacteria is “unbalanced”.
Now, you quote an article about freeling gram-neg Bacteroides enhancing IgA production.
(interesting article, BTW. Thanks, I learned something.
See? Was it that hard to substantiate your claims?)
So, which is it? Should we have gram-neg bacteria in our guts, or not?
Your continued evasions are duly noted, Bellend.
Narad, see #265.
Heli, of course you need gram-negative bacteria, but in balance. You can have too much of a good thing, including overactive immune response. And here are a couple articles per your previous request:
Unless it’s your contention that the words a parent writes on a page have the power to affect the dietary/microbial mechanisms of a disease that killed his daughter two years earlier:
There’s nothing you know about his story that does that.
Related to the Reverse Vampires, I dare say.
Mr. Bell: “Did your son receive MMR?”
This is amazing. You just keep digging. How, pray tell, does a vaccine given after a child is a year old cause neonatal seizures?
So, again, where is that verifiable documentation dated before 1990 that the MMR caused the issues you claim in the USA (do make sure you get the country right) during the 1970s and 1980s?
Serotonin imbalance of gut origin leads to glutamate excitotoxicity which in the prone sleeping position leads to SIDS when CO2 stimulates the serotonergic system. And also associated sugar imbalances leading to hypoglycemic seizure. And other ways such as clostridial toxin breach of BBB. Does your son have epilepsy? MMR in 1989?
Amplified insulin secretion via alcohols produced by overgrown gammaproteobacteria and/or fungi lead to reactive hypoglycemic seizure. Was he preterm?
Stupid, stupid, stupid. Do you even know what neonatal seizures are? How does a vaccine only given after age one cause SIDS, which by definition means death of an infant of unknown reason under age one year? And how does breast milk cause sugar imbalances?
And why would I care about a paper published on an anti-reality political screed by a guy who bought his computer science PhD and another who helped get a baby killer out of jail?
Since you keep digging, you have a new task: provide the PubMed indexed studies by reputable qualified researchers that the American MMR causes more seizures than measles.
Did your son suffer Infantile Spasm currently treated from the neck up? You’ve misconstrued what I stated about SIDS and breast milk. The pertussis and pneumococcal vaccines are infamously associated with causing seizure.
Ever try a low carb diet with him?
What do you recommend to reverse an intractable-to-treatment seizure disorder for those who have Lennox Gastaut seizures, Keith Bell.
(hint) low carb diets do not reverse seizures of any type; strictly adhered to ketogenic diets only “work” for a small percentage of people.
I only have a moment for this, but there’s one part that’s such a howler I can’t let it pass. The first link in #265 is
Hearken back, it you will, to #230:
For this assertion, Keith refers the reader to “Blood Type Diet” D’Adamo. Now, let’s grab a quick passage from Marcobal et al. (citations omitted):
“FUT2, known as the secretor locus in humans, encodes a polymorphic α1-2-fucosyltransferase. Non-secretors, which are homozygous for non-functional alleles and lack α1-2-fucose residues in secretory tissues and on mucus, are at increased risk for several diseases including Crohn’s disease and celiac disease and have gut communities that are distinct from secretors, who possess the functional fucosyltransferase.”
Now, let us visit D’Adamo’s definition of the term:
“A ‘Non-secretor’ is someone, who through their own genetics, carries a gene which inhibits them from secreting their ABO blood type in their secretions. By secretions we mean saliva, semen, etc. Eighty-five percent of the population are secretors, so non-secretors are in a minority. If you are a secretor, you express more of your blood type in your body.
G—le is not your friend, Keith.
Mr. Bell: “The pertussis and pneumococcal vaccines are infamously associated with causing seizure”
Even before a kid got their first vaccine? That is remarkable. Especially years before one of those vaccines was available, and since due to the neonatal seizures the first pertussis containing vaccine he got was almost twenty years later. Wow. You are very stupid.
You really need to put that shovel away, dude.
Narad: “G—le is not your friend, Keith”
That is very true.
Bellend’s #224 also immediately collapses as a consequence of this gaffe:
This is a classic.
The answer I expected.
And, pray tell, how do you know what this “balance” is?
For all we know, we may need a level of gram-neg bugs to have the positive effect on the immune system as described in the article in #251, which will turn out to be higher than the minimal level at which these bacteria will be helping virus infection, if your hypothesized mechanism turns out to be true.
Before listening to you and grafting myself some bifido, I think I will just keep eating my greens and regular yoghurt and let my gut flora sorts itself out.
On the other hand, thanks for the links. Again, interesting readings.
I noticed, in the second study, the authors claimed they didn’t found much difference between bacteria population following normal birth versus c-section. It’s funny, a few months ago someone published a book on the microbiome differences between children born one way or another (albeit after normal pregnancies, not ones complicated by diabetes), and one of his major finding was that there were differences. Although the same author noted that the microbiomes between the two groups converged after one year or such.
I would agree that there is plenty of things we don’t know about our microbiomes, and it’s a much worthy area of research, but I cannot help feeling we are still in the preliminary stages of discovery. It’s more buzz than science, right now. Well, I’m no expert, so my judgement is of limited value.
Apparently, Narad has never heard of mucin oligosaccharides. Makes one wonder what else he doesn’t know. He’s too proud to acknowledge he didn’t know our microbes consume host glycans, instead taking us of on yet another meaningless tangent about the source of a 1950 secretor status chart.. I’m still a fan, however condescendingly trenchant.
Chris, last I heard the CDC and AAP base their cruel vaccine protocol on the work of an criminal fugitive:
So, your son suffered seizures before any vaccination. Sorry to hear that. That’s what I call microbial predisposition. Dravet syndrome accounts for only 2.5% of seizures post vaccination, btw. I’d bet he’s suffered gastrointestinal symptoms his entire life. There’s a lot you can do for him and, hopefully, he’ll take matters into his own hands sooner than later. Anticonvulsants only mask the problem and don’t work half the time, often exacerbating seizure disorders. Did he suffer any negative reaction to the pertussis vaccine he received possibly leading to this recent autism diagnosis? Any regression?
Heli, you’re a refreshing person on this page. Ever hear of PCR stool testing? Organic acid urine testing for microbial metabolites?
lilady, LGS Foundation has yet to receive a funding request to study gut origin of seizure. But they’re interested; I spoke with them about it last week. I don’t believe mechanism of the ketogenic diet is really about ketones, but flora shift. Plenty of evidence. “A more recent report demonstrated a significant rate of seizure freedom (30%) after 12 months in patients with LGS (Kang et al., 2005):
You heard wrong.
Young Julian Frost of small head. Last we communicated you were flying out of the womb wearing a cape, hitting the nearest wall. I apologize for hurting your feelings and destroying your childhood image of Roald Dahl, the bigoted sugar monster.
And the fool refuses to put away the shovel and stop digging.
If my son had been born a few years earlier, he would have been institutionalized for not being able to speak as a three year old. Instead he got lots of speech therapy and a diagnosis of a speech disorder. He has normal intelligence but other deficits, and diagnoses have changed over the years, and still more with DSM V.
Please clarify, Chris, did he receive HepB vaccination at birth or before age 3?
While the antivax crowd continues bleating “THORSEN THORSEN THORSEN” at any mention of Andrew Wakefield’s transgressions, one wonders why they haven’t dropped poor old Poul in favor of the CDC employee(s) who were charged in an alleged child molestation/bestiality case (starting back in 2011).
That should have been so much juicier a case to harp on (though last I heard, one suspect had been cleared and the other was a long way from being convicted):
And I bet there is someone at Orac’s workplace (maybe in the laundry department, or more likely Administration) who has a prior criminal record, a stack of unpaid parking tickets or who once lived in Indiana. Can’t Olmsted, Attkisson or another ace reporter come up with such evidence and discredit this blog once and for all?
Mr. Bell: “Please clarify, Chris, did he receive HepB vaccination at birth or before age 3?”
I gave you his age, it is up to you to figure it out. Then no more prying into anyone else’s medical history. You have demonstrated you are totally incompetent.
#297 Excuse me? What country were you living in? Institutionalized for not being able to speak? This, I don’t believe.
Keith Bell, where did I mention that my “son” has Lennox-Gastaut seizures and where did I mention that the individual who has L-G seizures has Dravet Syndrome…or autism? Could it be that you heard about Dravet Syndrome being diagnosed as the real cause of L-G seizures following vaccination with the whole cell pertussis vaccine? The individual’s L-G seizures started after birth before any vaccines were administered and are caused by being born with zero platelets which caused a brain bleed and the development of a porencephalitic cyst which covers a large portion of the left hemisphere of his brain.
A real doctor would never make assumptions, about the etiology of seizures of any type and not attempt to tie his bullsh!t advice into his pet theory about gut flora.
No one believes you just happened to discuss L-G seizures with someone at the L-G Syndrome Foundation last week.
The only thing you have destroyed is your credibility.
I thank you for your kind words, but giving you a chance to elaborate on your assertions was just the right thing to do.
That doesn’t mean I’ll give you a pass when you keep bullsh!ting us. An activity I strongly suspect you are doing right now.
What does the freel this has to do with anything?
To some extend, you are right, most people here don’t know much about glycoproteins. I will tell you why: not only it’s a very specialized area of research, but it’s also a freakishly complicated one.
The regulars could make fun of people ignoring basic chemistry, like sodium chloride being the name for table salt, but they don’t mock people for ignoring highly arcane science. You are showing the very arrogance and religious fervor you were claiming is ours.
So, since you claim to have some insight, unpack.
What’s all this furor about host glycans and bacteria?
#297 I have to admit they are pathologizing too many children.
It’s sad that your son has to think of himself as autistic, rather then someone with some limitations who is able to fine meaningful activities that he enjoys. If he is not seriously depressed what’s the point of that diagnosis. It is helpful if it makes him eligible for enriched programs for whatever limitations he has.
#301 What country do you live in that never at any point in history warehoused the developmentally disabled in institutions?
I think at least here part of the “OMG where did all these disabled people come from they didn’t exist before” is that they stopped putting them all in homes for the disabled and started providing community-based services where kids could live at home as long as possible.
I mean maybe one country or two could gave gone from locking them in the attic or letting them starve on an ice flow to fully modern community-base care in one big leap but I thought most at least for some time did the institution thing.
I know a lot has changed but it really wasn’t that long ago when it was pretty routine to institutionalize kids pretty early on if they had issues.
ken: “What country were you living in? Institutionalized for not being able to speak? This, I don’t believe.”
Look up the Willowbrook School for starters (there was a news documentary on it in the late 1960s). Then look up the “Education for All Handicapped Children Act” of 1975:
There are stories of deaf kids and intellectually normal kids in wheel chairs being refused access to public schools. It was very common to warehouse children in schools for the deaf, blind and “feeble minded.” Just go watch the movie “Mr. Holland’s Opus” to see how recent that option was presented.
ken, your lack of historical knowledge is quite telling. The point is that things have changed greatly in even the last ten years on autism diagnoses, which is why my son and many of his special ed. preschool classmates are only recently getting an autism diagnosis.
ken: “It’s sad that your son has to think of himself as autistic, rather then someone with some limitations who is able to fine meaningful activities that he enjoys”
Ken, you are continuing to show your ignorance. While his IEP gave him the services he needed in high school, it was not complete, especially for the social communication aspect. In order to get supported housing, it turns out “autism” is the magic word for social services, plus the detailed evaluation.
Krebiozen: “I know a lot has changed but it really wasn’t that long ago when it was pretty routine to institutionalize kids pretty early on if they had issues.”
The playwright Arthur Miller had a son with Down’s Syndrome who was put into an institution as a one week old infant. Gene Tierney’s Daria had Congenital Rubella Syndrome and was institutionalized at age four.
Ooops, the quote “I know a lot has changed but it really wasn’t that long ago when it was pretty routine to institutionalize kids pretty early on if they had issues” was from Kaymarie.
I guess I just saw the first initial.
#307 Parents yes parents put their kids away. I had an aunt with a braindamaged child born in 1960 (NJ) who would never consider this. My friend taught in a school for the deaf 1970 NYC, another worked in south NJ at an institution. I was a caseworker in NYC 1969 ,had some child abuses cases reported, but no one forcibly took someones child away.
“but no one forcibly took someones child away.”
Who said that happened? What the schools did was just refuse admitting a child, and then strongly suggest a “suitable” institution. Any child who could not do something as “simple as talking” could be considered “uneducable.” See The Legislative and Litigation History of Special Education.
lilady, reread my post as what I said about a “son”, etc. was clearly directed at Chris, not you. What do you think causes Thrombocytopenia (low platelets)? Infection. Provide your email address and I’ll forward my conversation with LGSF.
You say the problem began before vaccination? I don’t buy it considering protocol begins within hours of birth. It’s barbaric here in the USA. Europe doesn’t suffer such madness.
Heli, I’m sure you’re capable of answering that question. I’ve already unpacked enough here. Good day all. And thanks to Chris for being so forthcoming. And thanks to nobody here for reading my new article:
p.s.- Kreb, your views on sugar consumption are primitive. Here’s an article published today:
#307 You seem to be of superior intelligence. Why didn’t you tutor him? Or are you just railing about the unfairness of it all?
ken, are you really that clueless? One thing I learned about having a child with multiple issues is how little I do know.
Something you seem to not understand, since you are completely clueless that you are completely clueless.
@Chris #310 happy to own Kaymaries’s quote 😉
#297 You said “If my son had been born a few years earlier, he would have been institutionalized for not being able to speak as a three year old. Instead he got lots of speech therapy and a………..” This was your statement. So you would have instutionalized you child?
#314 You said he is of normal intelligence. What issues would have institutionalized him? Not speaking? WTF are you talking about.?
Ken, howsabout you f*ck off already?
A French actress once reported in an interview about her family life on how, a few decades ago, as she was walking with her disabled son, they met the old lady next door who, upon seeing her son, primly told her:
“When one has a child like this, madam, one hides it!”
She was quite glad that our western societies have evolved and became more inclusive.
@ken – given the lack of social services for those individuals back in that time, being institutionalized was perhaps the only option available to many families…especially ones that lacked financial resources.
Before making a bunch of stupid assumptions, why don’t you read about the Institutional system that used to exist in this country?
Ken, have you ever considered not being an asshole?
In the early 80s my son was born with severe spina bifida and hydrocephalus. The hospital staff put him on clear fluids only, told us to leave him at the hospital and “pretend you never had a baby” as he wouldn’t survive. Instead we took him home. He is now 34 years old and living independently.
Shortly afterwards his mother got talking to an old lady in the street. She said she used to be a nurse and added, with a disparaging look at my son, “in my day we would just drop them in a bucket”. Attitudes have, thankfully, changed.
Thank God for services. They are sorely needed.
#322 Good God! Sorry to hear this! In my hometown (nj) they were more compassionate. Growing up in the 50’s I remember the sweet little girl with the very large head. No one would say anything like that. In my HS we had a girl with severe scaling psoriasis that left her skin bright red. She also had an odor but we were all kind to her.
Jeebustapdancingchrist. . . are there any successful treatments for f**faceitis?
Chris, last I heard the CDC and AAP base their cruel vaccine protocol on the work of an criminal fugitive:
Meanwhile in the factual (non-Attkisson) world, Thorsen is not a criminal, is employed in Denmark in a non-fugitive capacity, and the papers in which he was a minor author were not the bases for anyone’s vaccine protocol. Kevin has struck a trifecta of misinformed stupidity.
He seems to be a bit needy for attention.
I’m actually amazed by ken.
Hey, ken, I was born in the 1960’s. We still had the “retard” room (sorry for the term, all, but that’s what we called it back then) where all children who didn’t fit into a regular classroom setting were kept. We had no interaction with them except to pass by the door and stare at them like they were monkeys in the zoo. They didn’t eat with us, they didn’t have playground time with us. They basically arrived at the school, were locked into their room, and let out back onto their special bus at the end of the day. We didn’t even know a single name of a child in there – OR even the teacher’s name.
Kids who probably now would be considered mildly autistic (I had one classmate who would throw violent temper tantrums when stressed) but who could talk, walk, and hear, were put into regular classrooms. They rarely thrived there, and often ended up being expelled. (The local Catholic schools had a thriving business taking in the kids the public schools kicked out as impossible discipline problems. I don’t know if the families paid – which, with all the blue-collar families might have been a financial problem – or if the school district had a special arrangement with them and paid part or all of the cost.)
But we never had “different” kids in our classes – not even kids who had ambulatory issues only (a broken limb was different). Everyone was either dumped into the “retard” room or not in the public school.
ken: “So you would have instutionalized you child?”
How would I know? I was never given the option because of a law enacted eighteen years before his birth. It was at that time that I asked the preschool teacher what happened to kids like him, and she said most likely only allowed in an institution. This was just after autism became part of the disabilities served under IDEA in 1990, it took a few years to become policy.
From ken’s CDC link: “The prevalence of any DD in 1997–2008 was 13.87% ”
Anyone with a modicum of statistical knowledge will know this is actually less than the percentage of the normal distribution below the first standard deviation.
From clueless ken: “Sorry to hear this! In my hometown (nj) they were more compassionate. ”
You really don’t know that, since you were a child. No one knew about Arthur Miller’s child until shortly before is death. The 1950s was the time of “family secrets”, some of which only get uncovered years later. It took some digging to find out what happened to one of Henrietta Lacks’ children.
The fact remains that there were places like Willowbrook and others like Belchertown. Your anecdotes do not wipe out all of history, it just shows you are a clueless jerk.
#312 There were gains prior to 1975-
“In 1963, Kennedy established the Division of Handicapped Children and Youth and revitalized the Bureau of Education for the Handicapped. He sent missions to study international programs for disabled children and pushed for greater rights for the disabled, especially those with mental disabilities. Grassroots movements were instrumental in creating awareness of the inequalities facing the disabled but the movement also benefited greatly by having someone of Kennedy’s stature behind it.”
Yes, you have superior anecdotes. You supply insufficient info then attack when someone questions exactly what you mean.
I really feel sorry that you all have to shore up your egos by nasty remarks.
ken: “Yes, you have superior anecdotes.”
The blue words are links, click on them. The link you gave was a more formal paper of the one you just posted.
Mr. Bell: “What do you think causes Thrombocytopenia (low platelets)? Infection”
Yes, mostly from measles, which is one reason we try to prevent it by the MMR.
“Provide your email address”
You are obviously too stupid to understand why I will not do that.
Keith Bell. What kind of doctor are you? You never even inquired about the individual’s age. He is 39 years old…born in 1975 before the implementation of the birth dose of hepatitis B vaccine and born seven years before the development and licensing of the first hepatitis vaccine. You’re a health care professional wannabe, a poseur and a liar.
Ken, do you realize you are commenting on a thread with people who have developmentally disabled children and who are far more educated about the federal and state laws enacted to educate those children and to provide funding for the development of alternative living arrangements outside of those large institutions?
I should perhaps point out that my experiences were in the UK, but from what I have read things were much the same in the rest of the (so-called) developed world. I remember reading in Stephen Jay Gould’s books about the horrific way the disabled were treated relatively recently (very recently in some countries). Eugenics was popular among many otherwise great people – Marie Stopes and George Bernard Shaw spring to mind, but there were many others. For some reason eugenics went out of fashion when Nazi Germany slid right the way down its slippery slope.
@Kreb – and we are still talking about compensating victims of the American Eugenics program, where those of “feeble-mind” were routinely sterilized….
ken: “It’s sad that your son has to think of himself as autistic, rather then someone with some limitations who is able to fine meaningful activities that he enjoys”
Ken, you are continuing to show your ignorance. While his IEP gave him the services he needed in high school, it was not complete, especially for the social communication aspect. In order to get supported housing, it turns out “autism” is the magic word for social services, plus the detailed evaluation.
No kidding. ken would probably say that it’s sad that I have to think of myself as disabled –that VA check every month takes away the sting, though.
Not so long ago they were still finding old ladies, tucked out of sight in institutions, who had been forcibly sterilized and institutionalized for getting pregnant out of wedlock when they were girls. Maybe it still happens. IIRC Scandinavia was particularly bad in this regard.
Keith Bell isn’t a doctor. According to greenmedinfo.com he’s a veteran of the recycling industry and is about as qualified to speak on medical issues as your local sanitation worker.
@Kreb – it was a “not-so-little” secret, especially across the American South – particularly in Virginia, North Carolina and Mississippi, where active programs victimized thousands, if not tens of thousands – most of whom are no longer alive to testify to the horrors they were subjected to, of course, completely against their will.
Once you scratch the surface, you really begin to see exactly how many people disappeared into the “Institutional” system, and those who were carefully hidden away by their families.
@lilady 335 re: “What kind of doctor are you?”
I’ll join a-non in answering for him. He is not a doctor.
Wow….what a woo-tastic craptacular….
Meanwhile, his sister Rosemary was hidden away in an institution, which he used to explain by saying she was reclusive, back when he was Senator Kennedy.
What an absolutely awful thing to say. I mean, talk about bigotry.
It’s not an either/or, ken.
@ann – which is why it pisses me off when anti-vaxers try to claim that these people didn’t exist in the past…..they were always there, hidden out of sight and certainly not discussed in “polite company.”
So the oriental medicine guy is also the veteran of the recycling industry? Or are they two different people with the same wacky views, which would be a stunning coincidence…
As I have noted, Mr. Bell is very good at recycling bovine excrement.
#344 You completely took this out of context. This is what Chris said #273 “He is twenty six years old, and he was not diagnosed as a child because while he could not speak he had the audacity to smile like any other three year old when he was diagnosed in 1991 under the DSM III.
You seriously don’t get that more forms of autism are covered under both the DSM IV and DSM V. The biggest difference between the two latest DSMs is that Aspergers and PDD-NOS are now both under the full autism spectrum umbrella. My son was disappointed that he did not “just” have Asperger’s, which he would never had been diagnosed with because of his lack of speech at age three.”
I suffered from depression- I would not like to have my identity
known and broadcasted as a depressive. I sometimes relapse.
My point-“labels”- good only for increased services for that diagnostic category. Not an “identity” as in he’s an “OCD” etc.
even though labels explain atypical behaviors.
Well, can you clarify, ken, how – instead of as “someone with some limitations who is able to fine meaningful activities that he enjoys” – will someone diagnosed with autism have to think of themselves?
a-non: Wow, it is a coincidence! I googled Keith Bell and just assumed the deep woo acupuncturist that popped up was our Keith (for obvious reasons). But you’re right – the greenmedinfo bio is clearly the recycling guy.
Sorry Virginia acupuncturist guy, for confusing you with someone who is deep into pseudoscience and…wait…
Ken seems to think that life for the disabled back in the “day” was nothing but wine and roses it seems……what arrogance and stupidity combined.
#351 Wow this is such a dumb remark with no basis in reality I can only assume you like to bait people with outrageous statements. I think you are the arrogant and stupid one. I worked in social services in NYC for 10 years in the 70’s and was well aware of problems of the disaabled having WWII vets,children with sickle cell anemia,schizophenics, mentally retarded, alcoholics etc on my caseload who had to depend on Public Assistance.
Then you’ve just proven that your statements before are completely off-base and stupid.
If you do have that experience, then you should know better – your remarks up to this point have been nothing but trollish and vile.
I think the Kennedy’s kept Rosemary in some of the finer institutions after her royally botched lobotomy, but for most I’ll bet it was grim as hell.
aaarrgghh. . . an apostrophe gnome assaulted my post. ㋡
I’m not quite sure what you mean here. I’m a depressive myself, and I don’t exactly want that “identity” broadcasted, I suppose, but I am open to a reasonable degree IRL about the fact that I have/have had mental health issues. I think it’s important, actually, to be more open about these things, because making them into closet skeletons only adds to the general feeling of shame and stigma a lot of people feel about them, feelings that lead a lot of people not to get help when they need it, and subsequently to extra pain and suffering, possibly death, etc. I have to admit that I am not open with most people IRL about things like past suicide attempts, hospital stays, etc., since the stigma around those things is still pretty damaging, actually. It’s apparently still funny to make jokes about “crazy” people being locked up, etc., after all.
I mean, labels can be useful sometimes. All that language even is is a collection of labels, and it’s how we communicate with each other. Is “depressive” an “identity”? I don’t know, but it’s a word that references a thing I experience, maybe partially as a consequence of the way I am generally wired.
In any case, you’ve repeatedly failed to show any sort of sensitivity, intelligence, nuance, or actual compassion here, particularly in regards to the way you’ve treated Chris, so I’m not sure who I’m actually saying this to, but whatever.
I second the request for clarification. Because I saw the context. And I still can’t see another way to read that sentence.
If you wouldn’t say “It’s sad that your son has to think of himself as diabetic, rather then someone with some limitations who is able to find meaningful activities that he enjoys,” why would you say it about autism?
It’s stigmatizing, bordering on dehumanizing.
ken @ 52: If you really worked in social services in NYC during the 1970s, then you must be aware of the deplorable conditions that existed in the Willowbrook institution located in the borough of Staten Island, which required Federal Court intervention and the signing of the Willowbrook Consent Decree:
Senator Robert Kennedy (Dem-NY) visited Willowbrook during 1965 and appropriately described it as “a snake pit”. Geraldo Rivera, a local TV reporter gained entrance into Willowbrook, as the “Willowbrook Class” had just filed suit in Federal Court. Surely you must remember the film that showed the deplorable conditions that existed at Willowbrook that was shown on New York television, ken:
JP: “particularly in regards to the way you’ve treated Chris”
Thank you. That sentiment is quite appreciated.
ann; “I second the request for clarification. Because I saw the context. And I still can’t see another way to read that sentence.”:
Thanks to you also. Tomorrow I need to call a mail order pharmacy because they will not fill his heart meds due to outdated insurance information (despite my efforts to update it). I will introduce myself as his authorized representative, but because I have not signed the paperwork to that effect specifically to them… I will force dear son to give it to them himself. It will both give him some experience in self-advocacy and illustrate how the system works for those with speech/language disabilities.
First, and most importantly:
I’m not saying you’re a bad person, or trying to make you feel bad. Please take my word for that. It’s just that if you were responding to this…
…you make the situation worse not better by endorsing the stigma.
Secondly, by way of illustrating the point:
I’m sorry that you suffer from depression, and glad to hear that you were able to avail yourself of an effective treatment.
But if you grew up in the ’50s, it should be well within your living memory how vanishingly slight the chances of that would have been a very short time ago. Because until very recently, depression was popularly regarded as a character defect and/or sign of weakness, due to stigma. Especially in a woman. (Hysterical, neurotic, etc.)
I mean, ineffective as antidepressants are for many people (and overprescribed as they are, too), they’re a workable option for some. And forty years ago, it would have been even more definitively unavailable than CBT. At least that existed.
That’s progress of a kind.
So there you have it. Calling things what they are without prejudice is not a cure-all. Obviously. But it’s a start.
There’s so much comedic posturing in here that it’s going to take hours, which I didn’t have yesterday and probably won’t have tonight. I’ll start with the easy one.
Bellend tosses out out “secretor status” for no discernible reason in #230, citing D’Amado citing Genetics and the Races of Man citing “Matson, G. A., and C. L. Piper, A. 1. P. A., 5, 357-368 (1947).”
Add competence in citation to the list of talents that D’Amado the Lesser, naturopath, does not possess.
“A. 1. P. A.” turns out to be the American Journal of Physical Anthropology, with 1947 being – as W—pedia informs me – still within the tenure of its founding editor, who forbade standard deviations. It’s DOI 10.1002/ajpa.1330050307, but I’ll save you the trouble.
This is clearly embedded in D’Amado’s boneheaded worldview in which O is the first blood type, etc., time to make up diets! This is far dumber than the competing pseudo-evolutionary claims of both vegetarian and “paleo” True Believoroonies.
And now, even the easy part necessitates a break. It will pick up with Keith’s previously spamvertised “Part 2.”
* “It should be mentioned also that A₂ is lacking or extremely rare among native Hawaiians (Nigg, ’30) in which the distribution of the 4 blood groups resembles that of the Blackfeet Indians…. It seems that the incidence of A₂ is low or absent in the more primitive and isolated races.”
I thought the title of the journal and the year would suffice as a tip-off to the nature of the literature. You know what the WAPF logo is supposed to signify, right?
I did not, but now I do. Bleh.
I had the feeling that two issues were conflated in the conversation.
On one hand, there is the accuracy of the diagnostic done for one’s issues.
On the other hand, there is the level of “broadcasting” of said diagnostic.
The latter may lead to social stigma and peer pressure, including “you have to think of yourself as broken” issues. One can hope it can also lead to getting support and help from friends.
The former is about knowing that ails you or yours. If one wants to “take control of your own health”, to use an alt-med motto, getting a proper diagnostic is the mandatory start. Pussyfooting around frightening words is not helping.
What both Narad and Bellend are neglecting in this disscussion is the effect of the macrobiome.
XKCD for the win. 😉 Thank you for that chuckle, MA.
#360 “My son was disappointed that he did not “just” have Asperger’s, which he would never had been diagnosed with because of his lack of speech at age three.”
Ann said…you make the situation worse not better by endorsing the stigma.
My point was that it says very little about the person. This blog villifies Jake Crosby who happens to have Asperger’s.
I second Calli, Militant Agnostic!!!
I had just been discussing the putative benefits of yogurt with my wife before I came to the computer and read your link.
It got my day off to a good start.
@Ken: We don’t “vilify” Jake Crosby because he has Asperger’s. We simply expose him as the liar and horrible human being he is.
Maybe, but it’s not because Crosby has Asperger’s – it’s because of his actions and general cluelessness. A person with autism or a mental illness or whatever can still be a dummy or lack a moral compass or do awful things – just like a “normal” person can. The whole point is not to conflate having some condition or other with being a crappy person.
Wow he sure hates someone….Is this true?
Perhaps Orac’s simplistically dismissive answer can best be explained by the 30,000-euro grant he received directly from Bayer – a pharmaceutical company that not only used thimerosal in its Rh-immunoglobulins, but also produces GMO seeds.
#370 #371 Obviously.
I don’t think enough has been said about parents like mine,and like the others here,who went against the conventional wisdom of the day to keep their children out of homes an institutions back in the day.
I know I have told this before,but I am probably about the same age as MI Dawn.I had many serious developmental delays,learning disabilities,and behavioral issues.I was diagnosed with autism in 1971,when the DSM-II was in use.I was diagnosed right after my second major regression,when a severe head banging meltdown in gym class triggered an evaluation that led to my autism diagnosis.My diagnosis was such,that the psychiatrists and psychologists that did the evaluation thought I was severe enough to be put in the infamous Rosewood State Hospital,which was just down the road from where we lived at the time.
Rosewood itself has an interesting connection to Leo Kanner and the history of autism.
My mother was so appalled and scared by this,that we went to court to keep me out.I spent a couple of years in and out of the special education “retard rooms” of the time,so I know all to well what these classrooms were like.Children with intellectual disabilities were thrown in with kids who were simply trouble makers,who would no doubt spend the rest of their lives in trouble with the law.It was chaos,and no one learned anything.
It was about this time I also developed my many serious medical problems,that would remain undiagnosed until my late 40s and 50s.Cerebral folate deficiency,inborn errors of metabolism,and mitochondrial disease.It was only because I lived with my mother until she died,that I was able to survive to where medical science could identify my problems,but I nearly died several times along the way.
One big problem with the anti vaccine movement is they are completely ignorant,one might say willfully so,of the way disabled people were treated,warehoused,and ignored by society not that long ago in our history.This is one reason why the likes of Anne Daschel,and the rest flying monkeys at AoA can get away with saying what they do.Daschel and AoA are definitely some of the worst,but Safe Minds and the rest are not that far behind.They completely gloss over the fact there are those like liladay and Krebiozen here who were fighting in the trenches long before anybody knew who Andrew Wakefield was.
Ken- You are in no position to talk about conflict of interest. Ever.
Care to explain how much of that money would he personally see as opposed to, say, paying for equipment and for running the lights and water and for supplies and for research assistants and for sweeping the floors and for lots of other researchy things?
Well, it sure didn’t seem like it was obvious to you, ken. You were apparently objecting any sort of criticism of Jake Crosby because he “happens to have Asperger’s.”
Actually, like many cranks, you seem to have difficulty understanding c